Level 5 Ownage (some restrictions may apply)

[Enzario]

So, yeah, a few days ago, my DM and I got into an argument. We're starting a level 5 campaign this weekend, and since this is probably the last campaign I'll be playing with this group, I joked that I should make a character that would be capable of pretty much owning any encounter we might... well, encounter. So the DM (foolishly, I think) challenged me to make such a character. So, here I am. I need some help finding an ECL 5 build that will make mincemeat out of almost anything he'll throw at us. The specifics are below:

*ECL 5 (no exceptions)
*no infinite loops or [overly] cheesy builds (as in 1 level in 5 classes, do I even have to say this?)
* --Important!-- Books allowed: PHB, DMG, PHBII, MM 3.5, Expanded Psionics Handbook, Unearthed Arcana NO EXCEPTIONS!

My first thought would be a druid or a psychic warrior, but I'm not overly experienced in the optimization realm, so I'm coming to you guys for suggestions. Any ideas?

[Draz74]

Hmmm. That's tough, because ECL 5 is about the most balanced point in the game, except maybe ECL 4.

Druids are always a solid option; Wildshape isn't amazing yet at ECL 5, but the Animal Companion still packs a wallop at this level, and never underestimate their spellcasting. This is probably the best choice overall.

Clerics are a solid option too. They don't become "better at melee than the fighter" for a few more levels, but they're sure hard to take down with their self-healing!

Wizards have plenty of offensive power, even at ECL 5 (or lower), but they have to get a little higher in level before they start to have enough defensive spells that they aren't totally relying on their party to protect their squishy bodies. Psion, about the same.

Duskblade or Beguiler or Psychic Warrior are interesting options, with both casting and non-casting abilities. I'd probably recommend Beguiler over anything else, if only you could be sure that you wouldn't be facing challenges that are immune to Mind-Affecting.

Straight-up melee classes (e.g. Barbarian specifically) haven't fallen too far "behind" in the power level yet by ECL 5. A Barbarian could be a solid choice. Make sure he has some decent ranged weaponry available.

[Chronos]

What stats are you starting with?

Personally, I'm fond of the skill monkey classes, particularly the stealth skills (since enemies can't do anything to you if they don't even know you're there). The only way to counter high skill checks is with higher skill checks, and few things are (or even can be) as optimized for Spot as you can be for Hide. Fifth is low enough level that you can't yet reliably beat, say, a wizard every time, like you'll be able to at level 20, but it's also low enough that the occasional failure won't be instantly fatal.

[Enzario]

Oh, right, starting stats are:
18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8
(this group really like high stats. I mean really)

[Ganurath]

Use the Simple Druid Varient from UA, it can be devasting no matter which way you look at it.

[Guy_Whozevl]

I'm going with a Dark (template) Whisper Gnome. The template gives you Hide in Plain Sight, which works really well with the Darkstalker feat (Lords of Madness). Get Rogue levels to sneak attack things to death. Pump Hide and Move Silently, with items that enhance both of those skills. You should, in theory, be able to own stuff constantly due to the opposed checks needed for those skills being weak points for guys at that level. The Darkstalker feat is for any DM who thinks he can pull a fast one by throwing something with Blindsense or something like that. Those weapon crystals that allow you to sneak attack undead and constructs (or wands of Gravestrike or Golem Strike).

[kjones]

Don't forget that UMD becomes useful by level 5. A rogue with pumped UMD will be getting 8+Cha to their checks, meaning that they can use wands or scrolls with reasonable reliability. And since you're Level 5, there's some good stuff that will be well within WBL, even more so if your DM allows partially charged wands and other moderately cheesy goodness.

Incidentally, even though you explicitly banned "taking 1 level in 5 classes", this is much more likely to seriously cripple your character than to provide him with overpowering strength.

[JaxGaret]

Well, there is one class that is at its power peak at level 5: the Warlock. Probably still not the most powerful choice, though.

[AmberVael]

I'm going with a Dark (template) Whisper Gnome. The template gives you Hide in Plain Sight, which works really well with the Darkstalker feat (Lords of Madness). Get Rogue levels to sneak attack things to death. Pump Hide and Move Silently, with items that enhance both of those skills. You should, in theory, be able to own stuff constantly due to the opposed checks needed for those skills being weak points for guys at that level. The Darkstalker feat is for any DM who thinks he can pull a fast one by throwing something with Blindsense or something like that. Those weapon crystals that allow you to sneak attack undead and constructs (or wands of Gravestrike or Golem Strike).

Hmm... Tome of Magic, Lords of Madness, Races of Stone...
If only he had access to the books to actually use that. You should have read the first post. :smallyuk:
Now... what to build, what to build...

A few general tips-
Utilize the UA flaws and traits. Whatever you're doing, you're going to want to MAX it. You want to be awesome.
The flaws I recommend: Noncombatant, Shaky, Murky-Eyed, Inattentive.
Taking two flaws will help you greatly.

If you're going to do a class with limited resources, find a backup plan. Running out of spells or power points could be lethal with such a bet as you have, if you can't do anything else.

With such thoughts in mind, I would recommend Tome of Battle... but unfortunately you can't use it. Right, so what else is there?
Lessee... normal classes...

Barbarian- It's a solid class. It might work out, but I'd probably multiclass with fighter for a couple of levels to get some extra flexibility, so you wouldn't be completely dependent on Rage.
Bard- Bards do not own people.
Cleric- could work, but the really good buff spell is still just around the corner (At level 7). Still... you could be a fair powerhouse.
Druid- You can only wild shape once per day. I'm kinda iffy about this one.
Fighter- Don't go straight fighter, but for a general combat character a couple levels could be handy.
Monk- You're supposed to be owning people, not running away. Next.
Paladin- Mmmm... too many moral situations he could mess you up with. If he's trying to challenge you, he could just make you a fallen paladin with some crazy conundrum, and you'd be doomed. Next.
Ranger- Frankly, at this level and for your purposes, you might as well go straight fighter. I wouldn't use it. Too much reliance on an animal companion which could get skewered.
Rogue- UMD. Sneak attack. More versatility, and if you focus on sneak attacking you might as well have fireballs attached to your weapons. This is a real option.
Sorcerer- Hmmm. It has a good amount of spells per day, but you're not going to have access to 3rd level spells. Pass on this.
Wizard- "Any encounter" is really broad... and while an awesome Batman can deal with anything, you're still level 5. You're getting there, but if he tosses something you don't have the right spells for up at you as a surprise? Idk, it seems too risky to me.

PHB II-
Beguiler- Don't think so. Too subtle and sneaky with not enough focused benefit, or spells per day for my liking.
Dragon Shaman- Not. Enough. Options.
Duskblade- Versatile. Combat character with casting capability. You could do fairly well with this.
Knight- Mmm. I'm not at all qualified to comment on this, but I think I'd rather go for Barbarian.

Summary-
Barbarian, Cleric, Rogue, and Duskblade are the classes I think could work. If you do it right, Druid or Wizard, but those are tricky.

Personally, I think I'd go with Barbarian or Duskblade. Duskblade has resources to conserve, but you've also got plenty of combat capability.
Barbarian could probably be easier to get lasting all day, but might lack the power of spells that can just own someone if needed. Still... Barbarian with a two hander and power attack...

General overview of what I'm thinking right now-
Barbarian / Fighter
Water Orc (from UA)
Two handed weapon (greatsword)
Power Attack.
Get an Extra Rage feat for safety in resources.
Flaws: Murky Eyed and... mmm... I'd pick Inattentive.

Something like that.

EDIT: Completely forgot about XPH. Psion is like the wizard, but more iffy in versatility, Psychic Warrior is kinda like duskblade and Cleric, and Wilder/Soul Knife.... no.

[FinalJustice]

ClericZilla ftw! Inside a full plate and with a tower shield (spend a feat, then, later animate it and retrain the feat in something more useful), plus buffs, you can be AC freak, combined with your cure skills, you can outlast stuff really easily. You don't have the best buffs yet, but they're almost there, and even without them you can do well in combat, and, even if you don't, you can make sure the rest of your party is owning.

[dyslexicfaser]

You don't become a true cleric-zilla until 7th level, though. At 5th level, you're strong... but maybe not strong enough to outpace the rest of your party enough to win the challenge.

I'd put a vote in for druid5, myself. Rogue is quite powerful itself, but the DM could bind you up by throwing the right creature types at you. Druid doesn't really have that problem.

[Chronos]

Rogue is quite powerful itself, but the DM could bind you up by throwing the right creature types at you. Druid doesn't really have that problem.True, but if he throws nothing but dragons at the party, that's going to get old really quick.

[Chronicled]

My vote goes to druid or duskblade, in that order.

Druid--get augment summoning. Entangle your enemy and send augmented dire wolves at them, then buff yourself and your companion while they beat on your opponent. Alternatively, numerous augmented wolves are also a good bet. Have a riding dog wearing armor as your pet, and wild shape only when needed. Keep a fairie fire handy in case of invisible opponents; if they're flying, change your summons appropriately. Refrain from meleeing as much as possible--the minions are expendable, you're not. Stats should go Wis/Con/Dex/Str/Int/Cha. Go either human for the feat, or dwarf for the Con bonus and save bonuses. If it were me, I'd go dwarf. If the encounter is a trap instead of a fight, summon an animal to set it off for you, or have your riding dog do so and then heal it.

Duskblade--get a reach weapon and the feat Stand Still (from XPH). A potion of enlarge person would help as well. Channel a shocking grasp into your opponent, then if they try to close, keep them away from you with Stand Still. Choose your spells carefully; your level 2 spell will be an extremely important choice. The key idea here is to deliver as much damage as possible as quickly as possible while still keeping opponents away from your somewhat squishy self. This option still doesn't have the versatility and power of a druid, though. Going the Improved Trip route is also an option here if you have enough feats. Str/Con/Dex/Int/Wis/Cha.

Wizards and psions tend to be too squishy (although a psion in full plate is a valid option, perhaps one spamming Energy Missile?--remember, no spell failure for psionics, it only affects their attack rolls.), so I'd suggest not doing that.

Cleric is also reasonable. Buff and beat, perhaps tossing a few save-or-sucks. A reach weapon with Stand Still is still helpful here.

Also take a look at CR 5 monsters to gauge what he might throw at you. I think a green hag is CR 5, and they're quite tough if you're unprepared. You should insist that he stick to the same books as you have to.

[icthius]

True, but if he throws nothing but dragons at the party, that's going to get old really quick.

If I were a DM trying to under power a rogue, I would make the encounters include oozes, undead and constructs. Those are versatile enough that he can keep the change up without monotony.

[Enzario]

OK, wow, this is turning out nicely. I'm thinking that I'lll probably go with a Barbarian/Fighter, going for a straightforward two-hander build. This is awesome, guys. So probably I should have power attack, extra rage, perhaps Mad Foam Rager or some other feat that improves the hitting-things department.

Thanks again.

[Chronicled]

He has too many answers to a melee-only build; I'd pick something with versatility as well as power--and that means having spells or powers to draw upon. Druid is really the best option here, since you can get around various defenses that will stop a melee-only character. If you MUST go barbarian/fighter, then Weapon Focus (not specialization) is a good pick at this level. You HAVE to hit your opponent to be successful, and Weapon Focus will help with that.

Also, if it's a test against 1 encounter and you do decide upon barbarian, don't pick extra rage. If it's against several, then as a test, your conditions should be reset before each fight.

[AmberVael]

He already stated that he was doing this for a campaign, thus it is highly reasonable to assume that he will face more than one encounter during a day.
As rage is probably his most powerful ability, and he has the resources to give him feats to spare, Extra Rage is probably a good choice.

For the same reasoning, a spellcasting class, or class with dependency on limited use per day abilities, is probably going to be weaker in choice because they will need to rest, and the DM can just overwhelm him with encounters.

[Chronicled]

Missed the part about him actually using the character for roleplay. Druid is still the best option power-wise, even if you only count the all-day stuff. Your animal companion is as strong as a fighter, and you can still fight quite well after your spells are gone (even if you've already wildshaped). Druids are, frankly, overpowered.

If the DM tries to swarm him with encounters, then the rest of the party will suffer as well.

[AmberVael]

Frankly, the druid has too few of uses of any of its abilities at that level to be comfortable.
Assuming you (wisely) max out your wisdom score, you're going to have 2 third level spells per day, 3 second, and 4 first. Not exactly impressive. On top of that, you have 1 wild shape, and no way to increase that since you have no access to Extra Wildshape.
Also, unless he's allowed to take a feat at level 5, he wouldn't have access to Natural Spell, which would be very helpful.

Speaking of which, I'm pretty sure Extra Rage is in Complete Warrior. Might check that out to see if you can get it.

Anywho, back to Druid.
If you WERE to make a druid, I'd highly recommend that use one or more of the druid variants. The Spontaneous Divine caster, for example. It might limit spell selection... but you'd at least get more per day. You'd have to alter strategy a bit if you used that.
The shapeshifter variant in PHB II would also be something to look at- you get less bonuses, but you can do it infinite times per day.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

Yeah, I would probably go with a rogue build and utilize UMD for as much cheese as I can throw.

A construct or undead might cause problems, as could sleep or paralysis, or charms...guess that means elven rogue.

The build begs for weapon finesse (longsword/rapier), and a good bow.

cloak and boots of elvenkind, wand of magic missle, wand of CLW, sleep, wand with 'orb of something?', +1 sword or bow perhaps...the 9k goes fast since most things cost 1-2g if they give a bonus.

[deadseashoals]

Druid, wildshape into a fleshraker after casting your buffs. Or a supercharger (probably halfling fighter 4 / barbarian 1 with a warpony). Or duskblade, as it hits its power peak at 5, considering:

* It gets quick cast 1/day at level 5.
* No one has iterative attacks at level 5, and channeling a spell is a standard action.
* Shocking grasp maxes out at 5d6 at level 5.

[Chronos]

If I were a DM trying to under power a rogue, I would make the encounters include oozes, undead and constructs. Those are versatile enough that he can keep the change up without monotony.How so? Those all have lousy Spot checks. Well, at least until you get up to the templated undeads, but you won't be seeing any of those at level 5.

[Hario]

Man if my players boasted about beating any encounter, I'd just throw an CR 5 encounter, of that Da*ned crab!

Druid is a solid choice, healing, buffs, battlefield control, decent melee, and a squishy animal companion.

If you are going barbarian though I find warforged to be an awesome race to use barbarian with, especially to go warforged juggernaut, You'll be immune to a huge amount of things by level 10 the only thing that won't be too good is your reflex save.
Also Warforged are immune to fatigue so no worry about being fatigued after raging.

[Skjaldbakka]

You bit off more than you can chew, my friend. There are encounters that hose casters, and there are (a lot more) encounters that hose fighters. If you try to do both, well -there are encounters that suck for gishes, too.

And that is assuming CR appropriate encounters only.

All chiding asside, Druid is probably your best bet, because it can cast spells, and has an animal companion that can fight. Next level, you can fight too.

[kpenguin]

Um... maybe a diplomacy-focused guy? Make hostile monsters indifferent or better with one roll?

[Lord Tataraus]

Um... maybe a diplomacy-focused guy? Make hostile monsters indifferent or better with one roll?

That is your best bet really. I'm pretty sure a 5th level character can get a hostile to friendly with a minimum roll in a minute or a low roll in a full-round. I don't know the exact build, but you want to go bard I think and get Exemplar at some point.

[Skjaldbakka]

Um... maybe a diplomacy-focused guy? Make hostile monsters indifferent or better with one roll?You'd have to have big turn undead and wild empathy too, to cover undead, animals, and vermin. And you're still screwed by constructs.

[Ganurath]

Um... maybe a diplomacy-focused guy? Make hostile monsters indifferent or better with one roll?Half-Elf Cleric of Wee Jas with the Magic and Domination Domains, Charm Scrolls, and Undead MinionsTM to take the hits for you.

[Draz74]

I'd just like to point out that a Druid can totally take Natural Spell at Level 3 if he wants to. It will just be a useless feat until he gets to Level 5. If the OP's DM didn't say anything about a build that was sensible retroactively at all levels, Natural Spell is totally fair game.

[SadisticFishing]

I'd just like to point out that a Druid can totally take Natural Spell at Level 3 if he wants to. It will just be a useless feat until he gets to Level 5. If the OP's DM didn't say anything about a build that was sensible retroactively at all levels, Natural Spell is totally fair game.

Wrong, you have to qualify for a feat to take it, and Natural Spell has a prerequisite of "Ability to wild shape"

[kpenguin]

You'd have to have big turn undead and wild empathy too, to cover undead, animals, and vermin. And you're still screwed by constructs.

Why? Just work it out with the BBEG and have him fight for you.

[Ganurath]

Why? Just work it out with the BBEG and have him fight for you.Even if you can take feats retroactively, you can't take encounters retroactively. Diplomacy-proof minions first, then BBEG.

[kpenguin]

How about the folks in town? It'd be easier to convert indifferent to helpful anyway.

[Ganurath]

Situational modifiers kill your plan of Diplomacy dead.

"Hey, who wants to help us fight evils that can kill you with a glance?"

[Draz74]

Wrong, you have to qualify for a feat to take it, and Natural Spell has a prerequisite of "Ability to wild shape"

... huh. How did that get there? I was pretty sure I had seen builds that involved taking Natural Spell early before. :smallconfused:

[Chronicled]

Frankly, the druid has too few of uses of any of its abilities at that level to be comfortable.
Assuming you (wisely) max out your wisdom score, you're going to have 2 third level spells per day, 3 second, and 4 first. Not exactly impressive. On top of that, you have 1 wild shape, and no way to increase that since you have no access to Extra Wildshape.
Also, unless he's allowed to take a feat at level 5, he wouldn't have access to Natural Spell, which would be very helpful.

Anywho, back to Druid.
If you WERE to make a druid, I'd highly recommend that use one or more of the druid variants. The Spontaneous Divine caster, for example. It might limit spell selection... but you'd at least get more per day. You'd have to alter strategy a bit if you used that.
The shapeshifter variant in PHB II would also be something to look at- you get less bonuses, but you can do it infinite times per day.

All of the druid variants are weaker than the normal druid, with the exception of 1 or 2 from different books. I've just been looking at druid options for a game I'm about to join, I know this. The PHB2 version is MUCH less powerful (admittedly, this puts it on par with most classes).

Meanwhile, the key idea is that a druid's animal companion will last all day long, as will a druid's normal fighting ability. A druid isn't reliant on spells or wildshape to be effective--having an animal companion ensures that they will be. It's been said that a druid could lose 2 of their signature class features and still be a highly playable class. Even if the druid blows all their spells and wildshape at the first encounter, they can survive and contribute the rest of the day, unlike a wizard or psion.

Choosing and using spells wisely--and summoning allies with Augment Summoning--will allow a druid to contribute well all day long.

[Talic]

If the DM has a tendency to throw low numbers of semi-powerful monsters at the group (ogres, giants, undead, animals, and the like), consider a grapple build. While not insanely powerful in and of themselves, with a good build, Psi War/Barb/Fighter grapplers can be strong at this level. Each has their own strengths, obviously. If you had a couple of the Complete Books, druid grappler can be fun. Not nec. the strongest build, but a good fun team oriented one. Weak vs. Incorporeal and ooze type monsters, as well as things more than 2 size cat. bigger than you. Otherwise, fun times.

For sheer power though, if the campaign is going to go much past 5, I'd go Cleric or Druid for overall power throughout the bell curve. They start coming into their own at level 5 and only get better.

[Icewalker]

It's possible that the necessary books aren't there, because I don't know them, but...Pun Pun is ECL 5.

Well, when he starts. :smallbiggrin:

[Kurald Galain]

I'd suggest the Duskblade. With the proper spells (and you get 2nd-levels by then) you go Nova in a big way, which will probably take down nearly every BBEG you would find at that point.

[AlterForm]

It's possible that the necessary books aren't there, because I don't know them, but...Pun Pun is ECL 5.

Well, when he starts. :smallbiggrin:

Pun-Pun needs books outside of core, and is now level 1.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

I would go with Druid too. You won't "own" every encounter and depending on the party you might not even be the main contributor to the enemy's defeat, but you stand a good chance of surviving and being effective.


... huh. How did that get there? I was pretty sure I had seen builds that involved taking Natural Spell early before. :smallconfused:

Ohh I am sure you have. Those builds just weren't legal. :smallamused:

[Chronos]

Ohh I am sure you have. Those builds just weren't legal.They might have been, if there were other classes mixed in. For instance, a Fighter 1/Druid 7 could learn Natural Spell the same level that he gained Wildshape. And I think there are also classes which gain Wild Shape earlier than the druid does (doesn't Pun-Pun use one?).

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

You can get them at the same level, but you cannot get it before you have the ability, which was the point of my comment about illegal builds.