Telekinetic feat: can you telekinetically shove yourself?

[Monster Manuel]

Per the question in the title; I'm inclined to say no, but help me think this through.

The bonus action telekinetic shove can be used on a creature you can see within 30 feet. Push that creature 5 feet towards or away from you if they fail a save, which they can fail willingly if they want to move. This can be used to shove an ally out of danger or a grapple, or move them to a better position.

It doesn't say it has to be a creature other than yourself. You are, in fact, a creature that you can see that is within 30 feet of you.

If you are caught in an Entangle, can you telekinetically shove yourself 5 feet back, to free yourself from the entangle?

If you make your full movement, and fall just short of where you wanted to be, could you telekinetically shove yourself to cover that last 5 feet?

Could you shove yourself past 5 feet of difficult terrain, or some other environmental hazard?

I think what kills this idea is the line that says you shove your target 5 feet towards or away FROM YOU. If you are the originating point, you can't push yourself 5 feet away from yourself. But it is an instantaneous effect, right? So is it shoving the target away from YOU, or is it an instantaneous push shoving away from your current position? If the latter, you should be able to move yourself. If the former, and the assumption is that the pushing/pulling force is coming from you, can you achieve a similar movement effect by pushing or pulling on an immovable/much heavier target?

My evoker wizard would love for this to work, but I suspect it doesn't (and if it does RAW, I think it probably shouldn't, rules-as-intended, because I think it makes the feat stronger than intended), but I would welcome other opinions.

[Raven777]

Baseline yes, by the wording of the spell if this came up as a DM I would say you can shove yourself. (That sounds weirdly rude when phrased like that.)

That being said, your specific questions require more elucidation:

If you are caught in an Entangle, can you telekinetically shove yourself 5 feet back, to free yourself from the entangle?
Regardless of telekinesis, the real question is wether you can shove anyone out of an Entangle, and what are the mechanics involved.

If you make your full movement, and fall just short of where you wanted to be, could you telekinetically shove yourself to cover that last 5 feet?
I would rule that yes. The shove is a bonus action which you use to boost yourself those last 5 feet.

Could you shove yourself past 5 feet of difficult terrain, or some other environmental hazard?
Same as for Entangle above, regardless of telekinesis the broader question is about resolving what happens when anyone gets shoved through difficult terrain.

I think what kills this idea is the line that says you shove your target 5 feet towards or away FROM YOU. If you are the originating point, you can't push yourself 5 feet away from yourself.
My DM interpretation is to apply Occam's Razor: you shove yourself away from your point of origin in the direction of your choice.

[KorvinStarmast]

The bonus action telekinetic shove can be used on a creature you can see within 30 feet. Push that creature 5 feet towards or away from you if they fail a save, which they can fail willingly if they want to move. This can be used to shove an ally out of danger or a grapple, or move them to a better position. yes, I've used it a lot.

It doesn't say it has to be a creature other than yourself. You are, in fact, a creature that you can see that is within 30 feet of you. Yes.

If you are caught in an Entangle, can you telekinetically shove yourself 5 feet back, to free yourself from the entangle?
Since you can willingly fail a save, technically you might be able to but the semantics of "from you" gets a little tricky.

If you make your full movement, and fall just short of where you wanted to be, could you telekinetically shove yourself to cover that last 5 feet? Or a boost to a jump?

Could you shove yourself past 5 feet of difficult terrain, or some other environmental hazard?
Good question.

@PhoenixPhyre: not sure how often I'd want to try and use this, but next time we play would you like to see how this plays out for Vijil, or is it a bit too fiddly/sketchy? My gut feel on this is that it is generally used on "a creature other than yourself" but that constraint isn't explicit, and a bunch of other stuff that includes 'creature you can see' includes one's self.

[EggKookoo]

So my wife just took Telekinetic when we hit 4th at the end of our last session. This thread is Suddenly Interesting.

If she shoves herself out of an enemy's melee range, does it provoke an OA?

[MadBear]

Entangle:

Grasping weeds and vines sprout from the ground in a 20-foot square starting from a point within range. For the duration, these plants turn the ground in the area into difficult terrain.
A creature in the area when you cast the spell must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be restrained by the entangling plants until the spell ends. A creature restrained by the plants can use its action to make a Strength check against your spell save DC. On a success, it frees itself.
When the spell ends, the conjured plants wilt away.

Restrained:

A restrained creature’s speed becomes 0, and it can’t benefit from any bonus to its speed.

based on this, I'd say that you can definitely move yourself the 5ft with telekinesis, however, you would still be restrained in the new location. However when I read the actual telekinesis feat, I find the answer gets a bit trickier:

Telekinesis:

As a bonus action, you can try to telekinetically shove one creature you can see within 30 feet of you. When you do so, the target must succeed on a Strength saving throw (DC 8 + your proficiency bonus + the ability modifier of the score increased by this feat) or be moved 5 feet toward or away from you. A creature can willingly fail this save.

According to this you are moving 5 feet closer or away from yourself. I don't think then that you could yourself benefit from this feat since you can't really be definition move closer or further away from yourself.


TLDR: If you are allowed to shove yourself then you could move out of the terrain caused by entangle, but you'd still be restrained. However, I don't think you can actually shove yourself.

[Raven777]

Coming back to the difficult terrain question, I think there can be two sides to the argument:

1) The narrative side:
The main issue would be that difficult terrain is an abstraction that can map to different actual terrain features. If the difficult terrain is a large patch of sticky mud or a shingle beach (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shingle_beach) (try walking on those without tripping, I dare you), I would say you can shove people (yourself included) through them without counting as such. But if it's thick forest undergrowth, thick giant spider webs or some denser than air magical force, the shove might be too weak to clear the obstacle. Ultimately the DM would need to adjust their ruling based on the specific nature of the difficult terrain.

2) The mechanics side:
Shove and difficult terrain do not interact as mechanics. Difficult terrain doubles the Speed cost of a movement action, but a Shove neither relies on Speed nor counts as capital M movement. A shove pushes the target 5 feet away, independently from the target's own movement action or speed. Therefore, if a shove says it pushes a target 5 feet, this is always true regardless of the terrain being difficult or not.

Personally, by Occam's Razor, I would favor the second side. A shove always works over the same distance regardless of terrain. Now the only thing left to resolve is shoving someone out of an Entangle effect.


If she shoves herself out of an enemy's melee range, does it provoke an OA?
You can make an opportunity Attack when a Hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach. If I want to be consistent with the above, the shove does not constitute a "move", which means it is not an eligible trigger for opportunity Attacks.

This is consistent with the existing written rules (https://www.5esrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Opportunity-Attacks) on interactions between OAs and the Shove action: You also don’t provoke an opportunity attack when you teleport or when someone or something moves you without using your movement, action, or reaction.

[RogueJK]

I've had a couple characters with Telekinetic, and my DM allows you to shove yourself. This is handy not just for times when you need +5' movement, but also for things like adding +5' to your jump distance, or shoving yourself 5' away from an enemy before moving away to avoid an OA.

My DM allowed you to attempt to telekinetically shove yourself or another out of stuff like Entangle or a Grapple. However, it required a spellcasting ability check against the Entangle escape DC or opposed Athletics check, instead of the normal STR check or Athletics/Acrobatics check. That's a reasonable compromise.

[Mastikator]

So my wife just took Telekinetic when we hit 4th at the end of our last session. This thread is Suddenly Interesting.

If she shoves herself out of an enemy's melee range, does it provoke an OA?

The rules for forced movement and opportunity attacks says that if you are required to use your action or reaction then forced movement can provoke opportunity attack.

Dissonant Whispers triggers OA because the target uses reaction, thunderwave does not trigger OA because there's no reaction.

Being targeted by Telekenetic does not require the target to use their reaction or action, so there's no opportunity attack. Even if you use it on yourself, even if you are using a bonus action. Using telekenetic does itself not provoke opportunity attack, and being the target of doesn't either.

[Unoriginal]

Per the question in the title; I'm inclined to say no, but help me think this through.

The bonus action telekinetic shove can be used on a creature you can see within 30 feet. Push that creature 5 feet towards or away from you if they fail a save, which they can fail willingly if they want to move. This can be used to shove an ally out of danger or a grapple, or move them to a better position.

It doesn't say it has to be a creature other than yourself. You are, in fact, a creature that you can see that is within 30 feet of you.

If you are caught in an Entangle, can you telekinetically shove yourself 5 feet back, to free yourself from the entangle?

If you make your full movement, and fall just short of where you wanted to be, could you telekinetically shove yourself to cover that last 5 feet?

Could you shove yourself past 5 feet of difficult terrain, or some other environmental hazard?

I think what kills this idea is the line that says you shove your target 5 feet towards or away FROM YOU. If you are the originating point, you can't push yourself 5 feet away from yourself. But it is an instantaneous effect, right? So is it shoving the target away from YOU, or is it an instantaneous push shoving away from your current position? If the latter, you should be able to move yourself. If the former, and the assumption is that the pushing/pulling force is coming from you, can you achieve a similar movement effect by pushing or pulling on an immovable/much heavier target?

My evoker wizard would love for this to work, but I suspect it doesn't (and if it does RAW, I think it probably shouldn't, rules-as-intended, because I think it makes the feat stronger than intended), but I would welcome other opinions.

You can't shove yourself 5ft with Telekinetic any more than a character without Telekinetic can shove themselves 5ft with their arms.

Extra movement is precious (To compare, the Psi Warrior can use their psionic powers to move themselves three levels after they've became bale to move others), and using Telekinetic to improve your own movement is beyond the scope of the feat.

[Psyren]

If she shoves herself out of an enemy's melee range, does it provoke an OA?

As others have mentioned, Telekinetic is forced movement that does not use the target's movement, action, or reaction, therefore it doesn't trigger OAs.

[Keravath]

Whether telekinetic does anything when you target yourself is up to the DM since the effect specifically says "or be moved 5 feet toward you or away from you". The feat doesn't prevent you from targeting yourself since it can be any creature you see within 30 feet but as written I would say that the feat does nothing if you target yourself since it wouldn't be possible for you to be moved 5' toward or away from yourself (kind of like trying to lift yourself off the ground).

In addition, which direction is 5' toward or away from you when you are the target?

Anyway, it's up to the DM how they want to run it in their game and may depend on how they envisage the psychic effect actually working in their game. There is enough wiggle room in the toward or away from you and the fact that the feat does allow for targeting yourself that a DM could rule it works on the character using the ability.

"As a bonus action, you can try to telekinetically shove one creature you can see within 30 feet of you. When you do so, the target must succeed on a Strength saving throw (DC 8 + your proficiency bonus + the ability modifier of the score increased by this feat) or be moved 5 feet toward you or away from you. A creature can willingly fail this save."

[greenstone]

Since you can willingly fail a save
You can't. Some features specify that you can choose to fail a saving throw (calm emotions, for example) but there is no general rule that allows you to do this.

It is a common house rule to allow this.

[Unoriginal]

You can't. Some features specify that you can choose to fail a saving throw (calm emotions, for example) but there is no general rule that allows you to do this.

It is a common house rule to allow this.

Telekinetic, which is being discussed here, is one of the features that specifically state you can fail the save.

[kingcheesepants]

You can't. Some features specify that you can choose to fail a saving throw (calm emotions, for example) but there is no general rule that allows you to do this.

It is a common house rule to allow this.

Telekinetic is in fact one of the features that specify that the target can willingly fail the save.

At my table I don't allow Telekinetic to shove yourself because of the towards or away from you clause. But I don't think that DMs who allow it to work are doing anything particularly unreasonable or utilizing off the wall interpretations.

[PhoenixPhyre]

After debating with myself a bit, I came to the following conclusions as a DM.

By default ("RAW" if you want to use those words) you can't shove yourself because the direction is undefined (you can't shove yourself away from yourself). However, I could definitely agree to a homebrew compromise (because the effect itself isn't too strong IMO):

Add the following line: Alternatively you can push against a fixed object or the ground within 30'. If you do so, you move 5' further away from the object in a straight line. This does not work if you are grappled by another creature (see note).

Editor's Note: If you're being grappled, I wouldn't allow this. Because in that case, the proper effect is to try to push them away using the feat normally, which requires a save. No, I'm not going to let you break the grapple without a save.

-----

Unrelated side note about the feat--it does not define what happens if the target cannot move in the selected direction (such as if there's another creature/obstacle completely/partially[1] blocking the way). Which is a tiny bit annoying (only a tiny bit).

[1] Such as if you're shoving a large creature and there's a medium creature occupying one of the 4 squares the large creature would be pushed into.

[JackPhoenix]

Yes. You can shove yourself, resulting in your constituent parts being suddenly moved 5' directly away from the center of your mass. The results are usually messy.

[da newt]

WRT OpAtts, if you use telekinesis to move yourself it does use your bonus action to move so it should trigger the OpAtt per RAW.

[Psyren]

WRT OpAtts, if you use telekinesis to move yourself it does use your bonus action to move so it should trigger the OpAtt per RAW.

Moving/Being moved with your bonus action doesn't provoke though

[JackPhoenix]

Moving/Being moved with your bonus action doesn't provoke though

Bonus action is still an action. "Various class features, spells, and other abilities let you take an additional action on your turn called a bonus action."

[DarknessEternal]

There is no such thing as moving yourself towards or away from yourself.

No.

[Parra]

If range to self is 0, surely moving 5' is moving away from self?

[Mastikator]

Bonus action is still an action. "Various class features, spells, and other abilities let you take an additional action on your turn called a bonus action."

That's from the telekenetic user, not the target.
The fact that they are one and the same doesn't matter ;)

[EggKookoo]

Whether telekinetic does anything when you target yourself is up to the DM since the effect specifically says "or be moved 5 feet toward you or away from you". The feat doesn't prevent you from targeting yourself since it can be any creature you see within 30 feet but as written I would say that the feat does nothing if you target yourself since it wouldn't be possible for you to be moved 5' toward or away from yourself (kind of like trying to lift yourself off the ground).

The thing is, it's thematically appropriate. Fiction is filled with self-levitating telekinetics. I would certainly rule that you can shove yourself, but I'm not sure I would say you avoid OAs by doing so.

[DarknessEternal]

If range to self is 0, surely moving 5' is moving away from self?

Only if self has exploded into a 5' higher radius. So if you want Telekinesis feat to be an elaborate form of suicide, I guess go ahead.

[Lord Ruby34]

My table had to rule on this a couple of weeks ago. We found that the telekinetic can't shove themselves because they can't shove themselves towards or away from themselves. Additionally, the opposite ruling would frequently allow a character to disengage and move as a bonus action, along with all the other utility that the feat provides. It's already quite good, it doesn't need to be better.

[EggKookoo]

We found that the telekinetic can't shove themselves because they can't shove themselves towards or away from themselves.

I mean technically you can. A shove is a discrete action, and "away from yourself" is certainly something that exists (presumably you pick a direction/vector). Sure, as you're moving, "away from yourself" gets a little strange, but by then you're done shoving so it's no longer relevant.

[Lord Ruby34]

I mean technically you can. A shove is a discrete action, and "away from yourself" is certainly something that exists (presumably you pick a direction/vector). Sure, as you're moving, "away from yourself" gets a little strange, but by then you're done shoving so it's no longer relevant.

You're overlooking the fact that what you're shoving matters. In this case, yourself. Shoving yourself away from yourself is an impossibility. There is no metric for success, you can't be further away from yourself than you are.

[EggKookoo]

You're overlooking the fact that what you're shoving matters. In this case, yourself. Shoving yourself away from yourself is an impossibility. There is no metric for success, you can't be further away from yourself than you are.

You don't have to be. "5 feet away from me" is a logical location. I'm shoving myself that distance in a direction I choose. Once I execute the shove, the action is done.

Pedantic hypothetical time.

Forget about telekinesis for a moment. Let's say I'm at a location, and you're at another location 15 feet west of me and 5 feet north. Pythagoras says we're about 15.8 feet apart.

On my turn, I move 15 feet west, so I'm 5 feet south of you and you're within melee reach. I shove you, and let's assume I succeed. Since I'm south of you, you move 5 feet north. I then keep moving 15 more feet west. At the end of my turn, we're now roughly 18 feet apart. But according to a strict reading of the shove rules, you should be 5 feet further from me than you were when we started, or something close to 21 feet.

Of course that's nonsensical -- it's clear why we end up in the positions we do. You just have to apply some common sense, and understand that the shove is an instantaneous thing that happens during a turn (like an attack is), not something that happens continuously over the course of it.

So when I shove myself telekinetically, I'm performing that discrete, instantaneous action. In that instant, "away from me" makes sense. Once I perform that action, we're done. We don't need to concern ourselves with whether or not "way from me" continues to make sense, since I'm no longer shoving.

[Damon_Tor]

I feel like the "away from yourself" debate is pointless.

The bottom line to me is this: the writers could have made the target "another creature". Tons of spells and abilities are kept from targeting the user with this phrase, it's very well established. They chose not to use it. Ergo, it seems clear to me that the INTENT of the ability is that the PC can use it on themselves.

[Monster Manuel]

Thanks, all.

I'm seeing two recurring themes in the 'no' camp:

1) The wording saying the shove is towards or away from you doesn't make sense if you are the target, implying that you can't be the target (let alone the logical challenge of picturing how you can push yourself off of yourself, like bugs bunny pulling himself up by his own belt).

I still think there's room for interpretation here; it depends on how you interpret "you" in the context of the spell...much like standing on the north pole, the direction "towards" or "away" is meaningless; pick a random direction and start walking, and regardless of where you're headed, you're walking north. 5 feet away from you is 5 feet in any direction, if you interpret the "you" as being your position, and not your physical self. Not sure how to justify "towards" you, though, since even if you interpret it as a point in space that you're moving relative to, you can't move towards your position since you're already there. Practically it doesn't matter, since directionality is meaningless here. You can't move 5 feet towards a position you're already in, so the ability does nothing, but there's no direction you could shove yourself that isn;t 5 feet from where you started, so you just would never use the "towards" clause on yourself.

If you have to go through mental gymnastics to make the ability work, the simplest answer of "it doesn't work" is probably the right one. This is reinforced by the second theme in the responses:

2) Allowing the use of the feat on yourself makes it more powerful than intended, and more powerful than other similar abilities

If, as has been argued, you could use the TK shove to push yourself 5 feet away from an opponent without triggering an OA, because you are not using your Move or your action/reaction to move, this is essentially the same as a bonus action Disengage. Pushing yourself at the end of a move is like getting an extra 5 ft of movement. You're getting a weaker version of just about everything in the Mobile feat, on top of the ability to move others around, the boosted Mage Hand, and a +1 INT. Granted, not all feats are created equal as it is, but this seems like more than was intended for the Telekinetic feat to give.

I'm not sure that comparing it to similar class abilities like the those of the psi warrior is really an equivalent comparison (those abilities work differently, are more powerful, and the cost comes from levels invested in a class, and not from a more variable resource like a feat). But other feats are entirely fair game, and if Telekinetic allows for the self-movement, I think it puts it ahead of what other feats offer, even if none of the individual applications of that are game-breaking.

Overall, seems like it COULD work, but maybe SHOULDN'T.

Thanks for the discussion, everyone.

[Silpharon]

I feel like the "away from yourself" debate is pointless.

The bottom line to me is this: the writers could have made the target "another creature". Tons of spells and abilities are kept from targeting the user with this phrase, it's very well established. They chose not to use it. Ergo, it seems clear to me that the INTENT of the ability is that the PC can use it on themselves.

I agree with this.

RAI: absolutely you can, including movement in any direction
RAW: only if you hold that you can move yourself away from yourself

The authors are fallible and vague language in 5e abounds. DM makes the call, but my personal bent is to rule toward RAW when the language is clear, and RAI (via context) when the language is unclear.

In this case, I believe the intent would be written:

...or be moved 5 feet toward you or away from your space

[Jervis]

IIRC it probably doesn’t work because you can’t shove yourself towards or away from yourself. It’s like trying to push yourselves over. This seems like the sort of thing that would cause a infinite acceleration backwards long jump glitch in a video game

[Chronos]

The entire extent of direction control the feat allows is a choice of two options: Either towards or away. Even if you count all movement as being "movement away from yourself", you can't specify the direction: If you tell the DM "I'm moving myself 5' away from myself", then the DM would be justified in saying any direction that you move in.

Of course, moving yourself 5' in a random direction might still sometimes be useful. But not nearly as useful as when you can choose the direction.

[Captain Cap]

The bottom line to me is this: the writers could have made the target "another creature". Tons of spells and abilities are kept from targeting the user with this phrase, it's very well established. They chose not to use it. Ergo, it seems clear to me that the INTENT of the ability is that the PC can use it on themselves.
Actually, it's not really that well established, since there are plenty counterexamples in which "a creature you can see" clearly doesn't include "you":



Until the spell ends, whenever you or a creature you can see moves into the spirit's space for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, you can cause the spirit to restore ld6 hit points to that creature (no action required).

In addition, when you or a creature you can see within 30 feet of you is hit by an attack roll, you can use your reaction to invoke the rune and choose a different creature within 30 feet of you, other than the attacker.

Whenever you or a creature you can see within 30 feet of you succeeds on an Intelligence, a Wisdom, or a Charisma saving throw, you can use your reaction to deal 2d8 +your Charisma modifier force damage to the creature that forced the saving throw.

In addition, whenever you or a creature you can see within 120 feet of you succeeds on a saving throw against being charmed or frightened, you can use your reaction to force a different creature you can see within 120 feet of you to make a Wisdom saving throw against your spell save DC.

When you or a creature you can see takes damage while within 10 feet of the tentacle, you can use your reaction to choose one of those creatures and reduce the damage to that creature by ld8.

Furthermore, one may argue that the clause "another" would have been redundant since someone "obviously" can't move away from themselves, or that someone simply can't "shove" themselves.

[Lord Ruby34]

You don't have to be. "5 feet away from me" is a logical location. I'm shoving myself that distance in a direction I choose. Once I execute the shove, the action is done.

Pedantic hypothetical time.

Forget about telekinesis for a moment. Let's say I'm at a location, and you're at another location 15 feet west of me and 5 feet north. Pythagoras says we're about 15.8 feet apart.

On my turn, I move 15 feet west, so I'm 5 feet south of you and you're within melee reach. I shove you, and let's assume I succeed. Since I'm south of you, you move 5 feet north. I then keep moving 15 more feet west. At the end of my turn, we're now roughly 18 feet apart. But according to a strict reading of the shove rules, you should be 5 feet further from me than you were when we started, or something close to 21 feet.

Of course that's nonsensical -- it's clear why we end up in the positions we do. You just have to apply some common sense, and understand that the shove is an instantaneous thing that happens during a turn (like an attack is), not something that happens continuously over the course of it.

So when I shove myself telekinetically, I'm performing that discrete, instantaneous action. In that instant, "away from me" makes sense. Once I perform that action, we're done. We don't need to concern ourselves with whether or not "way from me" continues to make sense, since I'm no longer shoving.

Sure, five feet away from you is a logical location, but not one you can be be. You cannot move away from you. You are you. No direction you move can possibly be away from yourself. Math doesn't come into it, as long as you can't be in two places at once, and in 99% of DnD situations that isn't going to happen.

Away from you does not make sense. You can't just pretend that because "away from you" is a location that it's someplace you can move yourself. The ability needs to make sense all the way through to work, if it only makes sense before the action it isn't a logical action that a character can take.

[JackPhoenix]

Actually, it's not really that well established, since there are plenty counterexamples in which "a creature you can see" clearly doesn't include "you"

It also means you can use any of those abilities on yourself even when you're blinded, invisible, or otherwise unable to see yourself.

[Captain Cap]

It also means you can use any of those abilities on yourself even when you're blinded, invisible, or otherwise unable to see yourself.
That's a good point.

[EggKookoo]

Sure, five feet away from you is a logical location, but not one you can be be. You cannot move away from you. You are you. No direction you move can possibly be away from yourself. Math doesn't come into it, as long as you can't be in two places at once, and in 99% of DnD situations that isn't going to happen.

Away from you does not make sense. You can't just pretend that because "away from you" is a location that it's someplace you can move yourself. The ability needs to make sense all the way through to work, if it only makes sense before the action it isn't a logical action that a character can take.

And yet I can pick a location five feet from me and move myself there without telekinesis.

I think part of the problem is an attempt to apply some kind of physics to it. As if you're projecting thrust outward from your body. But of course you can also move things toward you, so it's not that simple. You're telekinetic. You make things move with your mind. It's not a thrust force emanating from you. If a creature was in between you and the target you're shoving, that creature isn't caught up in the effect. If you fail the shove, you're not knocked back in a Newtonian fashion.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Hmm, the one thing I'm sure of is if I did allow it, I would definitely say it provokes OAs.

[Captain Cap]

And yet I can pick a location five feet from me and move myself there without telekinesis.
But you don't move "away" from you.

[Jervis]

But you don't move "away" from you.

Technically I suppose you could move away from yourself if you exploded internally

[Damon_Tor]

Intent is clear, nothing is broken, it fits the lore. Only RAW is a little wonky. Not contradictory, just a little wonky. This is really the sort of thing you guys will say "no" to your players over?

[Jervis]

Intent is clear, nothing is broken, it fits the lore. Only RAW is a little wonky. Not contradictory, just a little wonky. This is really the sort of thing you guys will say "no" to your players over?

I mean what’s RAW and what’s allowed are two different things. I’d allow this fine just like I allow Revivify to work as intended, but RAW is still kinda bunk

[Thunderous Mojo]

Intent is clear, nothing is broken, it fits the lore. Only RAW is a little wonky. Not contradictory, just a little wonky. This is really the sort of thing you guys will say "no" to your players over?

I absolutely disagree. Technically, one could make a special Shove attack against one’s self. Practically speaking, this is not really possible.
Try in real life to shove your own self away from yourself, or prone.
It doesn’t work.

This is evidence that the Shove rules, wether telekinetic or the ‘regular’ kinetic version, were written sloppily, and the developers thought that from the context of something being shoved towards or away from would make it clear that said object can not be yourself.

[Mastikator]

I absolutely disagree. Technically, one could make a special Shove attack against one’s self. Practically speaking, this is not really possible.
Try in real life to shove your own self away from yourself, or prone.
It doesn’t work.

This is evidence that the Shove rules, wether telekinetic or the ‘regular’ kinetic version, were written sloppily, and the developers thought that from the context of something being shoved towards or away from would make it clear that said object can not be yourself.

What are the real life physics for telekenisis that tell us whether a telekenetic person can move themselves?

[Parra]

Only if self has exploded into a 5' higher radius. So if you want Telekinesis feat to be an elaborate form of suicide, I guess go ahead.

why would you explode? if I hit someone with a Repelling Blest, they dont turn into a misty cone of gore because of the angles involved in moving something 10' directly away. The entire creature keeps its parts together and moves in the direction.

[Parra]

Try in real life to shove your own self away from yourself, or prone.
It doesn’t work.


When you shove anything you are pushing against something. There is a force acting on an object. Otherwise your just flapping your arms around.

I can easily Shove myself. Heck every step I take is me shoving myself against the ground.

With telekinesis the magic provides the 'something' I'm pushing against.

[Captain Cap]

why would you explode?
No, they mean that the only way for you to move away form yourself is for some part of you to detach from the rest of you. In any other scenario the phrasing wouldn't make sense.

[EggKookoo]

It's easy to interpret "yourself" as "your location." That's how regular movement works, after all.

I agree the feat is sloppily written. So far I've been unable to find a SA post about it.

[Captain Cap]

It's easy to interpret "yourself" as "your location." That's how regular movement works, after all.
But Telekinetic doesn't involve regular movement. Nor I have ever came across "moving away from oneself" as a way to express moving in one direction.

I find it much easier to interpret the benefit of the feat as pulling/pushing someone else without requiring contact, and as a bonus action instead of an action.


I can easily Shove myself. Heck every step I take is me shoving myself against the ground.

With telekinesis the magic provides the 'something' I'm pushing against.
Question: if a character uses all of their movement to end up near a wall and uses their Attack action, would you let them forgo one of their attacks to Shove against the wall and move an extra 5 feet?

[EggKookoo]

Question: if a character uses all of their movement to end up near a wall and uses their Attack action, would you let them forgo one of their attacks to Shove against the wall and move an extra 5 feet?

I would consider that an imaginative use of shove, yes.

[RSP]

On whether or not it would provoke an opportunity attack, I’m pretty sure “forced movement” is any movement that doesn’t use your Movement; which this wouldn’t.

Similarly, if you (regular) Shove someone 5’ away from you, you don’t also then get an opportunity attack.

If it doesn’t use a creature’s own movement, then it’s “forced movement” and doesn’t provoke opportunity attacks.

As for the rest, this is already doable with Eldritch Blast and Repelling Blast:

Repelling Blast “When you hit a creature with eldritch blast, you can push the creature up to 10 feet away from you in a straight line.”

Eldritch Blast “Target: A creature within range…
A beam of crackling energy streaks toward a creature within range.”

You are a “creature within range”, so you are a viable target of EB.

[Segev]

Ignoring RAW and RAI for a moment, it may also be useful to analyze whether it is advisable to allow or forbid this use of Telekinesis or similar abilities. Examples in thus thread include shoving against a wall with one attack in a multi-attack action for an extra rive feet of movement, using repelling blast or grasp of hadar on oneself (ow), or is actually, I think those are it. But assuming a player found such a use to be desirable, would it break the game or set a bad precedent? Would it (conversely) be overly "no fun rules lawyer" to forbid it on the chance it is not technically allowed?

[EggKookoo]

As for the rest, this is already doable with Eldritch Blast and Repelling Blast:

Repelling Blast “When you hit a creature with eldritch blast, you can push the creature up to 10 feet away from you in a straight line.”

Eldritch Blast “Target: A creature within range…
A beam of crackling energy streaks toward a creature within range.”

You are a “creature within range”, so you are a viable target of EB.

Now I'm enjoying the image of a 17th level warlock with about 100 HP using four eldritch blasts to travel 40 feet and suffering about 22 HP damage for the trouble.

[Unoriginal]

But assuming a player found such a use to be desirable, would it break the game or set a bad precedent?

It would absolutely set a bad precedent.

As I said before, extra movement is precious. Some features give others extra movement, some features give extra self-movement, and some do both. Needless to say, turning a "give others extra movement" into a "do both" is a *significant* boost in not only power but also versatility in how to use that power.

Let me put it this way: would anyone consider it reasonable to let a PC applies the benefits of their Mobile feat to a different PC?

[da newt]

For Opp Atts: they are triggered "when a hostile creature moves out of your reach" and "You also don't provoke an opp att when you teleport or when someone or something moves you without using your movement, action, or reaction."

Telekinetic Shoving yourself uses your bonus action (which is an action) to move you so it doesn't meet the requirement above to prevent provoking the opp att.

[EggKookoo]

It would absolutely set a bad precedent.

As I said before, extra movement is precious. Some features give others extra movement, some features give extra self-movement, and some do both. Needless to say, turning a "give others extra movement" into a "do both" is a *significant* boost in not only power but also versatility in how to use that power.

Let me put it this way: would anyone consider it reasonable to let a PC applies the benefits of their Mobile feat to a different PC?

Is 5 feet costing your bonus action really game-breaking? Especially per RAW you can give those 5 feet to any ally. What's the disaster in just letting you do it to yourself?

[Unoriginal]

Is 5 feet costing your bonus action really game-breaking? Especially per RAW you can give those 5 feet to any ally. What's the disaster in just letting you do it to yourself?

It's a boost to the feat's power. If you want to boost the feat/consider the boost reasonable or not is not the question, the fact is it is a boost none the less.

And said boost is setting a bad precedent, because now every moving-another-creature/shoving features, including attacks, becomes a self-mobility boost too... except the ones that specifically state you can only use on others, like the Psi Warrior's Telekinetic Movement feature.

So you're boosting a feat that is already great as-is, and now a bunch of other features also get a free boost while the ones the devs thought "we should literally write you can't it on yourself this time, instead of 'use it on creature away from you' " gets weaker by comparison.

[MadMusketeer]

From what I've seen, it appears like (and other posters have pointed this out as well) the real question is whether you are pushing away from yourself for the whole time of the push (and thus cannot push away from yourself, as 'yourself' would move), or whether you apply a force at the start that then pushes you (and thus you can push yourself, as you are pushing away from a point). More simply, it's a question of whether you're pushing away from yourself or your position, at least from a rules perspective. There are no rules for whether you can push yourself away from yourself, so whatever conclusion we draw must be an extrapolation, no matter where it may fall.

Pulling back a bit, from a real-world perspective, none of the reasons you can't shove yourself normally (can't get enough leverage, can't apply enough force to yourself with the way your arms are designed, etc) apply to telekinesis. The force isn't applied by your limbs, and thus doesn't need to be applied in a position your arms can get leverage. Further, nothing implies such a force would need to be sustained - a quick push would suffice.

In game, I think it's up for debate whether the push happens instantly or across the movement. If the 'push' action happens before, or at the start of, the actual movement, pushing yourself makes sense - you aren't pushing away from yourself, you're pushing away from the position you were As always, the way the system handles time in combat is weird - 6 seconds made up of a series of instantaneous actions - which makes it hard to tell what parts of the turn take time and which don't. However, I think it's possible to figure out the order based on things like the order of events or when a reaction could be taken.

When you push someone with the Telekinetic feat, the order of events is this: you use the feat, the target (if they choose to) makes a Strength save, and then, if they fail the save, the target gets moved 5 feet to or from you. Further, after the save is failed, there is an opportunity for the target or a nearby character to use an ability like Portent or Silvery Barbs (which does require a reaction) to interfere with the result. There are no rules on how long any of these events take, but if we acknowledge that they occur successively, and that any of them take any amount of time (i.e. are not completely instantaneously, the effect clearly occurs after the ability is activated. Further, the in-universe explanation for the Strength save - preventing yourself form being moved by the force of the push - implies that the force is already present before the target is pushed; otherwise you wouldn't need to make a save before the effect.

There's no indication as to the time the force is applied for, but that doesn't mean the force away from you is continuous. There's no real reason either way, although for normal Shove attacks, we can probably assume the force is applied briefly - otherwise, you would need to move with the target, which you don't need to do. Telekinetic, which doesn't require you to do the pushing yourself, is less clear-cut, but it could go either way. If the force is instant, then, at this point, we can accept that pushing yourself is possible - you activate the effect to push yourself to a position (5 feet away from you), then you choose not to make a save, then the effect occurs and you are moved.

If the effect is continuous, then it depends on whether the effect is applied from you (i.e. your character's physical body) or your space. This is unclear RAW, but there is actually Sage Advice on the answer - the effect (at least of a spell) is applied from the spellcaster, not their space. While we can ignore RAI a lot of the time, in this case listening to it makes sense - RAW is unclear as well, so design intent is useful. Thus, if the force is applied continuously - and thus the effect is ongoing - this interaction doesn't work.

Thus, we can see that, logically speaking, if the 'push' force is instant or near-instant, you can telekinetically shove yourself, but if it's applied continuously throughout the movement, you can't. Personally, I lean towards instant, although not for mechanical reasons - I think it makes more thematic sense, but it depends on how you conceptualize the ability. Also, although I have referred to it as a 'force' that is applied to the target throughout this post, my argument doesn't rely on this - you could also conceptualize it purely in terms of the effect as written (the ability attempts to move you, then you make a save, then the ability moves you - the effect is already happening before you move).

One final note: I know this argument is build on real-world logic, which is somewhat fraught when it comes to D&D, but that's the only way to make a decision on this - the argument that you can't push yourself away from yourself is, after all, build on logic rather than rules text too.

[Thunderous Mojo]

What are the real life physics for telekenisis that tell us whether a telekenetic person can move themselves?

We are discussing fantasy game rules, so this objection misses the mark in terms of relevance, and appropriate fantasy feel. The falling rules of D&D are not real world accurate, for example, and have worked fine for decades.

More importantly you seem to have potentially overlooked the salient point that as written one could perform a Shove Attack against themself, as described on pg 195 of the PHB. If a Shove is allowed against oneself, then by RAW one has an Opposed Check with one’s self.

I am fairly confident that is not intended and an aberration in the rules. The Telekinetic feat mimics the verbiage of the Shove Special Attack rules, and thus has the same flaw.

It would be a wonderful after Holiday dinner desert to read an account of motivated reasoning that attempts to justify that the designers clearly intended for a PC to Shove themselves and wind up in an Opposed Check, with themselves.

I wait with baited breath….🃏

[Mastikator]

We are discussing fantasy game rules, so this objection misses the mark in terms of relevance, and appropriate fantasy feel. The falling rules of D&D are not real world accurate, for example, and have worked fine for decades.

More importantly you seem to have potentially overlooked the salient point that as written one could perform a Shove Attack against themself, as described on pg 195 of the PHB. If a Shove is allowed against oneself, then by RAW one has an Opposed Check with one’s self.

I am fairly confident that is not intended and an aberration in the rules.
The Telekinetic feat mimics the verbiage of the Shove Special Attack rules, and thus has the same flaw.

It would be a wonderful after Holiday dinner desert to read an account of motivated reasoning that attempts to justify that the designers clearly intended for a PC to Shive themselves and wind up in an Opposed Check, with themselves.

I wait with baited breath….🃏

There's a huge, massive, difference though. Anyone can shove and telekinetic is a feat.

Also with telekinesis there's no reason to invoke Newton's laws. You can't shove yourself because you need something to push off (usually just the ground), with telekinesis you are just moving objects with your mind. The Telekinesis spell allows you to "fly" if you move yourself and that doesn't provoke opportunity attacks either. So in terms of precedence I think it's already decided, if you can telekinesis (spell) yourself (which you 100% RAW can) you should be allowed to Telekinetic shove (feat) yourself. Allowing it doesn't set a precedence, it follows an existing one.
There is also Psi-Warrior that has Telekinetic Movement and explicitly says you can't target yourself, which neither Telekinesis nor Telekinetic does. RAI is very clear IMO that you can use telekinetic shove on yourself.

RAW? Just allow "yourself" to be any point within yourself and draw a line to your center of mass, bada bing bada boom we've bridged the gap from RAW to RAI and precedence.

[Unoriginal]

The Telekinesis spell allows you to "fly" if you move yourself and that doesn't provoke opportunity attacks either.

What do you mean? The Telekinesis spell does not let you bypass opportunity attacks from voluntarily moving out of a controlled space.

[Angelalex242]

You can only shove yourself if you do something rude enough to an NPC that their attitude drops one level towards you. Then they tell you to go shove yourself, so you can.

[JackPhoenix]

Also with telekinesis there's no reason to invoke Newton's laws. You can't shove yourself because you need something to push off (usually just the ground), with telekinesis you are just moving objects with your mind. The Telekinesis spell allows you to "fly" if you move yourself and that doesn't provoke opportunity attacks either. So in terms of precedence I think it's already decided, if you can telekinesis (spell) yourself (which you 100% RAW can) you should be allowed to Telekinetic shove (feat) yourself. Allowing it doesn't set a precedence, it follows an existing one.
There is also Psi-Warrior that has Telekinetic Movement and explicitly says you can't target yourself, which neither Telekinesis nor Telekinetic does. RAI is very clear IMO that you can use telekinetic shove on yourself.

You can't use ability as a precedent for another ability that works differently. Telekinesis and Telekinetic Movement are independant on the user's position, and allows the user to move target however he wants. And no, RAI it's very clear you can't use Telekinetic's shove on yourself, because "moving yourself away from yourself" is impossible.


RAW? Just allow "yourself" to be any point within yourself and draw a line to your center of mass, bada bing bada boom we've bridged the gap from RAW to RAI and precedence.

That has nothing to do with RAW. Or logic. If you "allow "yourself" to be any point within yourself", then it still doesn't work, because you've changed the definition of 'yourself' in the process... you'd be a point within something that isn't yourself anymore.

[Psyren]

Thanks for the discussion, everyone.

It was a good try :smallbiggrin:

[Mastikator]

What do you mean? The Telekinesis spell does not let you bypass opportunity attacks from voluntarily moving out of a controlled space.

The target of either telekinesis nor telekinetic use their action or reaction when moved. There's no opportunity attack if you use it on another creature, when you target yourself that doesn't change.

[Captain Cap]

The target of either telekinesis nor telekinetic use their action or reaction when moved. There's no opportunity attack if you use it on another creature, when you target yourself that doesn't change.

You also don’t provoke an opportunity attack when you teleport or when someone or something moves you without using your movement, action, or reaction.

When you cast the spell, and as your action each round for the duration, you can exert your will on one creature or object that you can see within range, causing the appropriate effect below.
By RAW you use your action to move yourself out of reach, so by RAW you provoke opportunity attacks.

[EggKookoo]

From what I've seen, it appears like (and other posters have pointed this out as well) the real question is whether you are pushing away from yourself for the whole time of the push (and thus cannot push away from yourself, as 'yourself' would move), or whether you apply a force at the start that then pushes you (and thus you can push yourself, as you are pushing away from a point). More simply, it's a question of whether you're pushing away from yourself or your position, at least from a rules perspective. There are no rules for whether you can push yourself away from yourself, so whatever conclusion we draw must be an extrapolation, no matter where it may fall.

This is why I brought up movement in an example earlier. The feat aside, if I shove you 5 feet away from me, and in the same turn move 30 feet backward, how far apart are we? If you say 35 feet, I would agree, and I think that's the common sense interpretation. But that means the shove is an instantaneous thing and not something that's kind of happening over the course of the entire turn.

A strictly literal interpretation of the rule -- one that IMO defies common sense -- says that you end up 5 feet away from me after shoving. In that interpretation, you somehow get dragged 25 feet while I move so the "5 feet away" rule works. That's nonsensical.

My takeaway is that "from you" really means "from your position at the moment of the shove." I think the devs didn't write it that way because it's so obvious that that's how it's meant to be read. I also think the RAI for the Telekinetic feat isn't that you're emitting some kind of psionic thrust outward from your body but that the shoving ability is just telekinetic manipulation rolled into a preexisting rule for brevity. I don't expect that a third creature that gets interposed between you and your target (assuming it could fit) would somehow get caught in the "blast."

[Captain Cap]

A strictly literal interpretation of the rule -- one that IMO defies common sense -- says that you end up 5 feet away from me after shoving. In that interpretation, you somehow get dragged 25 feet while I move so the "5 feet away" rule works. That's nonsensical.
Under your interpretation of the strict interpretation, if I, in real life, ask someone to move 5 feet away from me, and then I go away, that someone is expected to follow me, which doesn't make sense in any application of the English language as far as I know. It would be different if I ask them to "stay" 5 feet away from me, but that's not the wording used by Telekinetic.

"Action that moves something 5 feet away from you" = "Action that results in that something being 5 feet away from you at the end of the action itself"

All other arguments are pointlessly convoluted.

[EggKookoo]

Under your interpretation of the strict interpretation, if I, in real life, ask someone to move 5 feet from me, and then I go away, that someone is expected to follow me, which doesn't make sense in any application of the English language as far as I know.

"Action that moves something 5 feet away from you" = "Action that results in that something being 5 feet away from you at the end of the action itself"

All other arguments are pointlessly convoluted.

And as has been pointed out, "5 feet from me" is a perfectly logical position. I can, in fact, move to a place that is (currently) 5 feet from me without breaking physics. As soon as I start moving, it's no longer 5 feet from me, but that's irrelevant. It was when I took the action, which was to begin moving. That's why it's important to decide if the shove is an instantaneous thing, or something that consumes the turn. If it's instantaneous, which I think it is, then I can identify a location 5 feet from me, trigger the shove, and then be moved to that location.

Look at it another away. My arms aren't 5 feet long. How do I shove you 5 feet from me unless the shove is a discrete event?

[Captain Cap]

And as has been pointed out, "5 feet from me" is a perfectly logical position.
It's perfectly logical for something separated from "you", not "you".


That's why it's important to decide if the shove is an instantaneous thing, or something that consumes the turn.
Since we are concerning with RAW, I assume actions (from a rule point of view, not fictional) are expected to produce their effect "instantly", that is, the moment you decide for the character to take them, otherwise you would have Storm Herald Barbarians applying their auras's effects to anyone that is ever in range throughout their movement and other wonky consequences.


If it's instantaneous, which I think it is, then I can identify a location 5 feet from me, trigger the shove, and then be moved to that location.
The problem is that if the movement is instantaneous, there is technically no position associated with you at that "instant", since in that "instant" you occupy all and none of the points between you and the end of the movement. I could then argue that, since in that instant I also occupy the position 5 feet North with respect to my starting position, I could move additional 5 feet North, which would again be simply 5 feet away from me, and so on.


Look at it another away. My arms aren't 5 feet long. How do I shove you 5 feet from me unless the shove is a discrete event?
By pushing them: you impart an acceleration that results in a velocity that continues putting distance between us even after you stop touching me.
If I want to throw a ball out of a window, do I need to follow the trajectory of the ball for it to arrive at the window?

[EggKookoo]

The problem is that if the movement is instantaneous, there is technically no position associated with you at that "instant", since in that "instant" you occupy all and none of the points between you and the end of the movement. I could then argue that, since in that instant I also occupy the position 5 feet North with respect to my starting position, I could move additional 5 feet North, which would again be simply 5 feet away from me, and so on.

The movement itself -- meaning you traveling 5 feet -- is not literally instantaneous. But the action that causes the movement is, at least within the level of resolution that the game allows. A shove is an event that causes you to move, but it's not moving you the whole distance as if it's providing continuous thrust. You're not putting your hands on me and gradually moving me 5 feet, and then stopping when I reach that point. You're applying all of the energy at once, in a single burst, and I'm thrown back 5 feet. Once you apply the shove, you can at least in theory move without affecting my trajectory or position. That's the point of the earlier example with movement.

What if you shove me, then in the same turn use your movement to walk 5 feet in the same direction? If I can't telekinetically shove myself because I can't move myself away from myself, then you can't walk 5 feet along the same path as you shove me for the same reason. You're breaking the rule that I have to move 5 feet away from you. But again, this makes no sense, right? We can see why. Very clearly, you shoved me as a functionally instantaneous effect, then you moved. By then, "away from you" no longer matters because the shove was over and done with. Why would it be any different with a telekinetic shove?

[Captain Cap]

What if you shove me, then in the same turn use your movement to walk 5 feet in the same direction? If I can't telekinetically shove myself because I can't move myself away from myself, then you can't walk 5 feet along the same path as you shove me for the same reason. You're breaking the rule that I have to move 5 feet away from you. But again, this makes no sense, right? We can see why. Very clearly, you shoved me as a functionally instantaneous effect, then you moved. By then, "away from you" no longer matters because the shove was over and done with. Why would it be any different with a telekinetic shove?
Right after the shoving, you are 5 feet away from me, no matter where I move later on, while I can never physically be 5 feet away from myself. That's the difference.

[EggKookoo]

Right after the shoving, you are 5 feet away from me, no matter where I move later on, while I can never physically be 5 feet away from myself. That's the difference.

I don't see the difference. I telekinetically shove myself. Right after doing so, I'm 5 feet away from where I was when I performed the shove.

Or, I shove you, and as soon as I do, I walk 5 feet in the same direction. Did I shove you 5 feet away from me? We're still right next to each other.

[Captain Cap]

I don't see the difference. I telekinetically shove myself. Right after doing so, I'm 5 feet away from where I was when I performed the shove.
That's the difference: after the resolution of the telekinetic self-shoving, you are 5 feet away from where you were; after the resolution of a standard shoving, the target is 5 feet from where you are (before you do anything else).


Or, I shove you, and as soon as I do, I walk 5 feet in the same direction. Did I shove you 5 feet away from me? We're still right next to each other.
We are again next to each other after you move too, but before you moved, we were 5 feet apart. Under the rule abstraction, you can't shove and move simultaneously, to do so you would have to grapple and drag me: an enemy behind you may ready their action to "attack you after you shove someone" and would be able to attack you right after you shove me away and before you follow; if you shove yourself telekinetically, the enemy would not be able to make the attack, so the two situations are clearly not equivalent.

[Unoriginal]

The target of either telekinesis nor telekinetic use their action or reaction when moved. There's no opportunity attack if you use it on another creature, when you target yourself that doesn't change.

Assuming targetting yourself works (as you can't willingly fail the saving throw for Telekinesis even if it is ruled you can target yourself since you are a creature), you would be using your Action to move yourself.

Therefore, opportunity attacks apply as normal.

[EggKookoo]

That's the difference: after the resolution of the telekinetic self-shoving, you are 5 feet away from where you were; after the resolution of a standard shoving, the target is 5 feet from where you are (before you do anything else).

I should say I'm not seeing the difference as it applies to the question of being able to shove yourself. But I've been as clear as I know how so I'll let this one go.


Assuming targetting yourself works (as you can't willingly fail the saving throw for Telekinesis even if it is ruled you can target yourself since you are a creature), you would be using your Action to move yourself.

Quibble: it's a bonus action to shove a creature with the Telekinesis feat. There's argument to be made that it still counts in the sense that a bonus action is a kind of action. There's also a lot of weight to the position that actions and bonus actions are not interchangeable and you can't assume what applies to one applies to the other. The RAW is (I believe?) that you're only subject to an OA if you willingly move using your movement, your action, or your reaction.*

Also, why can't you choose to fail the save if you're the target? The feat explicitly says the target can if it's a creature.


Therefore, opportunity attacks apply as normal.

I agree that shoving yourself probably shouldn't make you immune to OAs. But for that's just based on a loose sense of balance and credibility. I could probably be persuaded otherwise.

* I don't know if there's any evidence for it, but it feels to me like bonus actions were a late addition to the pre-release game, and they didn't fully go through and update all the rules language to reflect it.

[Unoriginal]

Quibble: it's a bonus action to shove a creature with the Telekinesis feat. There's argument to be made that it still counts in the sense that a bonus action is a kind of action. There's also a lot of weight to the position that actions and bonus actions are not interchangeable and you can't assume what applies to one applies to the other. The RAW is (I believe?) that you're only subject to an OA if you willingly move using your movement, your action, or your reaction.*

Also, why can't you choose to fail the save if you're the target? The feat explicitly says the target can if it's a creature.



I agree that shoving yourself probably shouldn't make you immune to OAs. But for that's just based on a loose sense of balance and credibility. I could probably be persuaded otherwise.

We were talking about the Telekinesis spell, here.

[EggKookoo]

We were talking about the Telekinesis spell, here.

Sorry, got it.

[Mastikator]

Assuming targetting yourself works (as you can't willingly fail the saving throw for Telekinesis even if it is ruled you can target yourself since you are a creature), you would be using your Action to move yourself.

Therefore, opportunity attacks apply as normal.

That's only true if you rule that the action usage of the spell/feat carries over to yourself as the target. As far as I'm concerned the effect of being moved is separate from the (bonus) action of using force telekinetic movement.

[Captain Cap]

That's only true if you rule that the action usage of the spell/feat carries over to yourself as the target. As far as I'm concerned the effect of being moved is separate from the (bonus) action of using force telekinetic movement.
There's no need of carry over:

- Can you move with Telekinesis without spending an action?

When you cast the spell, and as your action each round for the duration, you can exert your will on one creature or object that you can see within range, causing the appropriate effect below.
No, therefore you need to use an action to move that way.

- Does moving yourself using an action provoke opportunity attacks?

You also don’t provoke an opportunity attack when you teleport or when someone or something moves you without using your movement, action, or reaction.
Yes, so using Telekinesis to move yourself should provoke opportunity attacks.

[Mastikator]

There's no need of carry over:

- Can you move with Telekinesis without spending an action?

No, therefore you need to use an action to move that way.

- Does moving yourself using an action provoke opportunity attacks?

Yes, so using Telekinesis to move yourself should provoke opportunity attacks.

Never claimed to not use an action. You use an action or bonus action to activate telekinesis. The target (you) doesn't use any action or reaction when forcefully moved. There is no bridge between you (the telekinetic) and you (the target). The fact that you are you is irrelevant.

[Captain Cap]

Never claimed to not use an action. You use an action or bonus action to activate telekinesis. The target (you) doesn't use any action or reaction when forcefully moved. There is no bridge between you (the telekinetic) and you (the target). The fact that you are you is irrelevant.
Opportunity attacks don't care about movement being forceful or not (and anyway, if you are what is deliberately causing your movement, it wouldn't be forceful all the same), nor about targets or casters, only if the one who moves is using their action, and in this case they are using their action, or they wouldn't be able to move.

The question by RAW is simply: can you use Telekinesis to move without using your move, action or reaction? If the answer is no, then you provoke opportunity attacks.

[Angelalex242]

If Opp attacka are your concern, you should probably just shove your opponent.

[Mastikator]

Opportunity attacks don't care about movement being forceful or not (and anyway, if you are what is deliberately causing your movement, it wouldn't be forceful all the same), nor about targets or casters, only if the one who moves is using their action, and in this case they are using their action, or they wouldn't be able to move.

The question by RAW is simply: can you use Telekinesis to move without using your move, action or reaction? If the answer is no, then you provoke opportunity attacks.

Opportunity attacks care a lot about forced movement. If you just walk away from your enemy- no action involved, then they get an opportunity attack. You need to use your action (disengage) to not provoke one.

Forced movement has a different set of rules.

[Captain Cap]

Opportunity attacks care a lot about forced movement. If you just walk away from your enemy- no action involved, then they get an opportunity attack. You need to use your action (disengage) to not provoke one.
You provoke opportunity attacks because you use your move, not because the movement isn't forced. Being forced or not forced isn't directly relevant for opportunity attacks: for example, a caster may use Dissonant Whispers to force you to move, but since as a result you must spend your reaction, you would still provoke opportunity attacks.

[Mastikator]

You provoke opportunity attacks because you use your move, not because the movement isn't forced. Being forced or not forced isn't directly relevant for opportunity attacks: for example, a caster may use Dissonant Whispers to force you to move, but since as a result you must spend your reaction, you would still provoke opportunity attacks.

With telekinesis you don't use your movement. You forcefully move yourself. You still have movement after you use it on yourself. You could move yourself 30 feet, then let go of yourself and then have your whole movement left. Moving yourself through telekinesis uses your action, costs a 5th level spell slot and causes restrained condition. Hardly overpowered. And RAW that you don't cause opportunity attack

[Captain Cap]

With telekinesis you don't use your movement.
No, but you use your action: move, action and reaction all provoke opportunity attacks.

You also don’t provoke an opportunity attack when you teleport or when someone or something moves you without using your movement, action, or reaction.


You forcefully move yourself.
You could say that even about walking: you're forced by the motion of your legs to move in a certain direction. But it doesn't matter, because forceful/forced movement isn't defined nor mentioned anywhere in the rules.

And RAW that you don't cause opportunity attack
You do, and the quotes from the PHB I provided multiple times are pretty clear about it.

[Mastikator]

You could say that even about walking: you're forced by the motion of your legs to move in a certain direction. But it doesn't matter, because forceful/forced movement isn't defined nor mentioned anywhere in the rules.

Movement is not forced so I hardly see how you could see it that way. You either move (opportunity attack), or you are moved (not opportunity attack). Whether the actor who caused you to be forcefully moved is you or someone else has no barring.

Example: You are hit by Thunderwave, you fail the save, you are pushed back. The caster doesn't get an opportunity attack.
You are hit by Dissonant Whispers, you fail the save. You use your reaction to move away, you are hit by opportunity attack.

The same principle for Telekinetic feat very much applies.

[Captain Cap]

Movement is not forced so I hardly see how you could see it that way.
Using your own telekinetic powers to move around could also be considered not forced either. Whether it's magic or muscles, you're setting yourself into motion.


You either move (opportunity attack), or you are moved (not opportunity attack).
That simply not what the rules say.

[Coeruleum]

RAW you can and I have. It doesn't seem to break anything since you already get so few feats in 5e, exclusive with stat increases unless you get bonus feats, and you're spending a whole one on this plus the componentless (and maybe extended range) invisible mage hand, so I think there's no reason to ban it, either, even if maybe other telekinetic effects specify you shouldn't use them on yourself. 3.5e has a telekinesis discipline Psionic Fly and Psionic Overland Flight, but 3.5e gives you way more psionic powers than 5e gives you feats, so it makes sense to allow you to shove yourself, especially since there isn't anything else filling in that gap.

[Mastikator]

Using your own telekinetic powers to move around could also be considered not forced either.


That simply not what the rules say.

What do the rules say?

[Captain Cap]

What do the rules say?
I already quoted them multiple times. As far as I'm concerned, my arguments have been fully presented.

[Unoriginal]

What do the rules say?

As quoted in this thread before, if the fact of moving involves your action or reaction, it does trigger opportunity attacks.

[Thunderous Mojo]

RAW you can and I have. It doesn't seem to break anything since you already get so few feats in 5e, exclusive with stat increases unless you get bonus feats, and you're spending a whole one on this plus the componentless (and maybe extended range) invisible mage hand, so I think there's no reason to ban it, either, even if maybe other telekinetic effects specify you shouldn't use them on yourself. 3.5e has a telekinesis discipline Psionic Fly and Psionic Overland Flight, but 3.5e gives you way more psionic powers than 5e gives you feats, so it makes sense to allow you to shove yourself, especially since there isn't anything else filling in that gap.

Ummm, sweat pecan pie motivated reasoning…delicious🃏

So we are ignoring that you are pushing one’s self towards or away from one’s bodily self…which as has been point out..can get sorta of messy….

…….We are also ignoring the fact that the Shove rules contain an error, (not explicitly stating one can not shove one’s self), which is replicated in the similar verbiage of the Telekinetic Feat…….

….furthermore, now, we are using the 3e as a justification for assuming a wildly expansive ruling for 5e….because, evidently the two systems are so similar.

Folks, why isn’t it just alright to say: “yeah, this self push/pull is not intended, but I think it is cool..so I run my game this way”.

Rule of Cool, is a great justification, and also makes it clear that this is a singular sort of ruling for a particular gaming group. Not, (as is being argued by some) an universally applicable, iron clad rule.

Phoenix Phyre gave a great example of a DM applying Rule of Cool, in this very thread.