Astral Self monk = infinite arms?

[Greywander]

I don't see anywhere in the description of the Arms of the Astral Self feature that says you can only create two astral arms. Sure, one could assume it to be implied, but it seems it's technically RAW that you can create as many arms as you like. Which, honestly, I think is probably fine. I mean, what are you going to do with all those arms, anyway? Use a shield? Oh wait, monk. Dual-wield greatswords? Oh wait, monk. Hold a ranged weapon while still being able to make effective melee attacks? Oh wait, monk. The only potentially gamebreaking thing is grappling as many creatures as you have attacks, but even then you're still limited to two grapple attempts per turn. Normally, monks are less than effective grapplers, but Astral Self gets to grapple using WIS, so it's actually viable.

Personally, I really like the idea of being able to just spawn as many extra ghostly hands as you want. It adds a lot of potential to flavor your character in a much broader variety of ways. For example, I have a character concept that is less Kujo Jotaro (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCab0L5_PTM) and more Something About Pac-Man (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR2dlAnP0-I). Well, maybe only at their spookiest. Most of the time, it would be more like "guy haunted by ghost that manifests as a spooky ghost hand (Mage Hand)". Although maybe that isn't too far off from Jotaro, either.

Oddly, it doesn't say anything about holding or using items with the Astral Arms, or if your carry weight changes. But they're still arms. Maybe being swole somehow makes your ghost arms able to lift more?

[Psyren]

Well... you're technically summoning arms, not hands. So a lot of the shenanigans you might think of, like wielding multiple 2-handed weapons or grappling a dozen enemies, are likely barred on those grounds by a strict reading.

[Greywander]

No, I don't think that's a reasonable reading. If you lose an arm you also lose the attached hand, ergo if you gain an arm you expect it to come with a hand. If I say, "This creature has four arms," there's an implicit assumption that the creature also has four hands. A hand is considered to be part of an arm, and barring mutilation or bizarre physiology it is assumed that a creature will have the same number of hands as they do arms. If the ability created arms without hands, then I would expect it to say so, because that would be a pretty important detail to leave out. It's reasonable to assume the ability only gives you two extra arms, but my point is that it isn't unreasonable to think you might be able to make more than two arms. It's certainly much more reasonable than thinking the ability creates arms without hands.

I've looked into writing several homebrew options for getting extra limbs, whether it's a four-armed race or the ability to attach body parts from other creatures. My opinion is that a second pair of hands gives some nice benefits, but more beyond that drops off very fast. With just four arms you can already hold a greatsword, longbow, and shield, and use your remaining hand for somatic components or to two-hand either weapon while attacking. Monks are also probably the most likely class to have a hand (or two!) that they're not using for anything, so more hands gives them zero benefits. Astral Self monks benefit a bit more since they're actually decent grapplers.

[JackPhoenix]

No, I don't think that's a reasonable reading. If you lose an arm you also lose the attached hand, ergo if you gain an arm you expect it to come with a hand. If I say, "This creature has four arms," there's an implicit assumption that the creature also has four hands. A hand is considered to be part of an arm, and barring mutilation or bizarre physiology it is assumed that a creature will have the same number of hands as they do arms. If the ability created arms without hands, then I would expect it to say so, because that would be a pretty important detail to leave out. It's reasonable to assume the ability only gives you two extra arms, but my point is that it isn't unreasonable to think you might be able to make more than two arms. It's certainly much more reasonable than thinking the ability creates arms without hands.

Your right to bear arms doesn't also give you the right to bear hands, as bears have paws, not hands. Even if they could be considered bare-handed, as they don't bear any arms.

[Burley]

Well... you're technically summoning arms, not hands. So a lot of the shenanigans you might think of, like wielding multiple 2-handed weapons or grappling a dozen enemies, are likely barred on those grounds by a strict reading.

I don't think you could do this, anyway. The Arms of the Astral Self are pretty specific on what you can do with the arms and that's making unarmed strikes. It doesn't say "You can make Attacks with the arms." It says "You can use the spectral arms to make unarmed strikes."

It also doesn't say you can manipulate objects or any of the stuff from Mage Hand. So, other than punchies and Strength checks, there's not much else the arms will do for you, hands or no.

[Psyren]

If I say, "This creature has four arms," there's an implicit assumption that the creature also has four hands.

The problem is that even if you were successful at proving that arms must imply hands - despite such not being stated in any of the rules (neither those of the Astral Self specifically nor elsewhere) - the freeness of those hands is the issue here, i.e. do you have the fine control over them the way you would a normal free hand that you would need in order to wield a weapon, manipulate an object etc. Astral Self is very specific in what you're allowed to do with the arms, i.e. make unarmed strikes. Compare the language here to something like a Thri-kreen's additional arms, a Simic Hybrid's tentacles or a Hadozee's prehensile feet.

Even if you were able to prove that the arms produced by Astral Self must come equipped with hands, those hands could be permanently balled into fists and thus not able to hold or wield anything. Even your ability to use the hands to modify your grapples is "while the arms are present" rather than specifically employing them. In short, you're in DM permission rather than DM prevention territory.

[Segev]

If we really want to chase down this rabbit hole, I don't think it says you need a free hand to wield a shield, only that a shield denies you a free hand on the arm it's on, technically. So you could wield a shield on a spare arm.

I am surprised to find that I cannot dispute the OP's assertion that there is no specified number of extra arms generated. It could be 1, or it could be dozens, because your "idealized self" is what has arms. If it has only 1 arm, you get +1 arm from activating the feature. If it has 6 arms (perhaps your idealized self is a marilith), you get +6 arms.

I also find the wording to be such that the claim you can ONLY do with those arms what it lists in the bullet points to be accurate. Anything beyond that is DM permissiveness. It's even easy to justify: the arms are immaterial and don't have power other than to inflict force damage as listed. Not to exert fine force, but to be a conduit for astral/psychic energy as a telekinetic blow.

[Greywander]

Your right to bear arms doesn't also give you the right to bear hands, as bears have paws, not hands. Even if they could be considered bare-handed, as they don't bear any arms.
The paradox of paws is being all thumbs despite not having any.


Astral Self is very specific in what you're allowed to do with the arms, i.e. make unarmed strikes. Compare the language here to something like a Thri-kreen's additional arms, a Simic Hybrid's tentacles or a Hadozee's prehensile feet.

Even if you were able to prove that the arms produced by Astral Self must come equipped with hands, those hands could be permanently balled into fists and thus not able to hold or wield anything. Even your ability to use the hands to modify your grapples is "while the arms are present" rather than specifically employing them. In short, you're in DM permission rather than DM prevention territory.

I also find the wording to be such that the claim you can ONLY do with those arms what it lists in the bullet points to be accurate. Anything beyond that is DM permissiveness. It's even easy to justify: the arms are immaterial and don't have power other than to inflict force damage as listed. Not to exert fine force, but to be a conduit for astral/psychic energy as a telekinetic blow.
After giving it some more thought, perhaps it was presumptuous to assume the astral arms function like normal arms. It's not just giving you additional arms, it's giving you spooky ghost arms, which could function like normal arms, but also might not. It seems the intention may have been not to give you extra arms at all; that's just the fluff for the bonuses it does give. It wouldn't be unreasonable for a DM to give you the benefit of extra arms, but that is something that would require DM permission.

[Thrudd]

The paradox of paws is being all thumbs despite not having any.



After giving it some more thought, perhaps it was presumptuous to assume the astral arms function like normal arms. It's not just giving you additional arms, it's giving you spooky ghost arms, which could function like normal arms, but also might not. It seems the intention may have been not to give you extra arms at all; that's just the fluff for the bonuses it does give. It wouldn't be unreasonable for a DM to give you the benefit of extra arms, but that is something that would require DM permission.

I agree, if you are spending ki to get the extra arms temporarily, it wouldn't necessarily be overpowered for a power to exist that lets you hold or interact with extra items for a short time- however, it would make sense to be limited to a specific number of arms for balance reasons. Spend 1 ki to get infinite hands is sort of silly, although it's true a single-classed monk isn't really doing much with those hands other than hitting, in general. Already, in fact, you are not forbidden from using your physical arms at the same time as the astral arms, they can appear "near your shoulders", and it doesn't say they replace your other arms, you "can" use them to make unarmed attacks and strength checks/saves, but you aren't required to. So you could be holding things with your physical hands and making attacks with the astral arms. As I read it, You could grapple with an astral wisdom hand and then attack with your physical body. or make an unarmed attack with astral arms and weapon attack or item interact with physical arms- though you still only get one attack action and bonus action no matter how many arms.

[Greywander]

Your right to bear arms doesn't also give you the right to bear hands, as bears have paws, not hands. Even if they could be considered bare-handed, as they don't bear any arms.

The paradox of paws is being all thumbs despite not having any.
I'm disappointed in myself for not making the obvious "bear-handed" joke. The thumbs thing is good, but this would have been better.


however, it would make sense to be limited to a specific number of arms for balance reasons. Spend 1 ki to get infinite hands is sort of silly,
Oh, it's definitely silly, but I don't think it's overpowered. A hand is only meaningful when it's doing something, so once you run out of things to hold then there isn't any further benefit from additional hands. In practice, infinite hands won't be more useful than, say, ten hands. This is one of those things with natural diminishing returns. If you only have one hand, then you'll hold your most important item. If you have two hands, you'll hold your second most important item in the other hand, which necessarily has less value than your most important item. Each hand adds a new item to hold that is of less value than the last, until they're adding no meaningful value at all.

It's also worth pointing out that monks can function at nearly full capacity with just one arm. You would miss out on using a shortbow, but you'd still have access to thrown weapons. A javelin or spear also works as a melee weapon.


So you could be holding things with your physical hands and making attacks with the astral arms.
You can already do this, though. Unarmed strikes don't require a free hand; you can use knees, elbows, headbutts, kicks, or any other part of your body. Yes, even that.

[Thrudd]

Oh, it's definitely silly, but I don't think it's overpowered. A hand is only meaningful when it's doing something, so once you run out of things to hold then there isn't any further benefit from additional hands. In practice, infinite hands won't be more useful than, say, ten hands. This is one of those things with natural diminishing returns. If you only have one hand, then you'll hold your most important item. If you have two hands, you'll hold your second most important item in the other hand, which necessarily has less value than your most important item. Each hand adds a new item to hold that is of less value than the last, until they're adding no meaningful value at all.

It's also worth pointing out that monks can function at nearly full capacity with just one arm. You would miss out on using a shortbow, but you'd still have access to thrown weapons. A javelin or spear also works as a melee weapon.


You can already do this, though. Unarmed strikes don't require a free hand; you can use knees, elbows, headbutts, kicks, or any other part of your body. Yes, even that.

That's true. The point of the astral arms is using wisdom instead of dex/str and the extra 5ft reach on attacks. In the playtest rules, a grapple is now explicitly an unarmed strike, which means astral arms could be used to grapple an enemy 10 ft away. With unlimited astral arms, you could grapple as many creatures as you have attacks in any single turn at 10 ft range (most likely you aren't going to get more than a few within range, but still). Maybe not overpowered, necessarily - but it is still probably reasonable to put a limit on exactly how many arms you can summon with just one ki point. Even with just two astral arms, the ability to grapple using wis at range is nice.

[Psyren]

That's true. The point of the astral arms is using wisdom instead of dex/str and the extra 5ft reach on attacks. In the playtest rules, a grapple is now explicitly an unarmed strike, which means astral arms could be used to grapple an enemy 10 ft away. With unlimited astral arms, you could grapple as many creatures as you have attacks in any single turn at 10 ft range (most likely you aren't going to get more than a few within range, but still). Maybe not overpowered, necessarily - but it is still probably reasonable to put a limit on exactly how many arms you can summon with just one ki point. Even with just two astral arms, the ability to grapple using wis at range is nice.

Even using the playtest rules though - yes, grapple is now a subset of unarmed strike, but it still has the "free hand" requirement. A base monk can unarmed strike with any part of their body, sure, but if their hands are occupied (say they're already grappling two foes) then they still can't grapple anyone, even in OneD&D.

Which brings us back to the fundamental question - do the Astral Arms give you extra free hands? Whether you can make 2 of them or 200, without free hands on them you still need your base hand(s) free to grapple. Your DM might certainly allow you to grapple with the astral arms - mine does - but then, I'm also not trying to make two dozen arms to lock down everyone within 10ft. of me. In short, you're in DM-may-I territory, with a generous heaping of the-rules-don't-say-I-can't.

[Leon]

Your right to bear arms doesn't also give you the right to bear hands, as bears have paws, not hands. Even if they could be considered bare-handed, as they don't bear any arms.

A paw interpretation

[DarknessEternal]

Following post says everything that needs to be said about this munchkining.

[Unoriginal]

OP, you can say you summon as many arms as you wish, but since the Astral Self subclass gives you no feature that says you can use extra arms, you can only use the two.

Same way you can say your Astral Self has a crocodile head, but you won't get a Bite attack when summoning it.

It's a cosmetic choice, and that's it.

[Burley]

A paw interpretation

In the bear wrist of terms


OP, you can say you summon as many arms as you wish, but since the Astral Self subclass gives you no feature that says you can use extra arms, you can only use the two.

Same way you can say your Astral Self has a crocodile head, but you won't get a Bite attack when summoning it.

It's a cosmetic choice, and that's it.

I agree that the cosmetics are extremely fluid.
And, who is to say your Astral Self even has "arms?" They could be tentacles or a big ol' tail. Maybe you grow centaur legs and do some extra kicks. The Astral Arms don't give you anything new; they just let you use Wis instead of Str/Dex for a few things (being SAD is preferable to MAD).

If I were DMing a Crocomonk, though, I'd let their astral arms be a biting head. Again, doesn't give an actual capital-B Bite Attack, but as an unarmed strike dealing force damage? Sure. Unarmed Strikes can be headbutts, kicks, knees, punches, elbows, hip drops, whatever. If you wanna add a mystical chomp to initiate a grapple (which you can also use Wisdom for), well... por que no?

[KorvinStarmast]

Your right to bear arms doesn't also give you the right to bear hands, as bears have paws, not hands. Even if they could be considered bare-handed, as they don't bear any arms. Thank you for the chuckle.

The paradox of paws is being all thumbs despite not having any. Nice. :smallsmile:

After giving it some more thought, perhaps it was presumptuous to assume the astral arms function like normal arms. Correct. If the feature had additional hands to be used as you suggest then it would have included that in the description of the sub class feature. Consider the extra detail that is used to explain how one can, or cannot, use the mage hand cantrip as a wizard, as an AT, or using the Telekinetic feat.