The weirdest party wipe happened two days ago

[Jon_Dahl]

I am the DM in a three-player high-level game with three 12th-level characters. Over several years, I cannot say how many exactly, of being an active D&D DM, at no point has there been a party wipe... before last Sunday.

The psurlons that I had up against the PCs proved to be too strong. Hold monster followed by a coup de grace was too much for the 12th-level multiclass fighter, who failed a DC 22 fort save. Several lightning bolts round after round killed the party wizard. The mystic theurge PC fled the scene. Afterwards, he used dimension door to fetch the bodies of his slain companions.

In my campaign, the diamonds that can be used for raise dead spells are extremely rare. The mystic theurge did not have diamonds for a raise dead spell, but he heard a rumor of an interplanar salesperson located in the City of Sigil who had that diamond. He plane shifted there, bought the diamond, and plane shifted back to the coastal city where he had the bodies.

I rolled the direction and the distance of the plane shift*, and he ended up on a distant island a couple of hundred miles off the coastal city that was his destination. He rented boat and a crew from the local pirates, who transported him to his home kingdom, but because the pirates feared the authorities of said kingdom, they left the mystic theurge PC off at the coast of a dangerous and isolated gigantic forest known as the Dread Woods.

The mystic theurge slept in the woods, without any protection, and I rolled wandering monsters. A pack of dire wolves came and attacked him while he was sleeping. He was quickly dead. Several magic items plus 5000 gp worth of diamonds were left to the wolves.

I do not know what to think about this all. I found this to be a very unusual party wipe. Any comments?

* I do not know whether you roll the 5d100 mile 'offness' when you come back to the Prime Material Plane, but I do that. I have no specific explanation as to why I do that, but if you feel that I should stop doing that, I am listening.

[Rebel7284]

Rope Trick is level 2.. sleeping in the wilderness without it sounds real dangerous...

[False God]

From an outside POV, this looks more like an attempt to kill your party. But maybe they like living dangerously.

I'm not familiar with Psurlons, and there seem to be several at several different CRs, so I'd need to know which you were using to make any statement on the balance of the encounter, but generally...

Hold Monster is a will save, 9/10 times it's going to completely screw any non-caster.

Coup de grace is almost always a move I avoid without very explicit reason to do so or desire from the player.

I roll a Percentile for accuracy with all teleporting, but it is reduced with caster level, and only goes up to 100 miles off. But this reads an awful lot like "Player is trying to help their friends, the DM is doing everything they can to keep them from getting back." I don't understand why the Mystic could Plane Shift back....but not teleport from the island to his hometown?

I have no real problem with enemies playing smart. But this "series of unfortunate events" looks a bit sus from the outside. Maybe I'm overly generous with my players.

[Fizban]

I've never seen anything indicating you shouldn't roll Plane Shift accuracy when "returning" to the Material. Dare I ask why the MT didn't Teleport after the Plane Shift? Or sleep in a tree? or ride a Phantom Steed through the forest? I was expecting the trip to Sigil to be the problem but nope, it's lack of a hammock.

Naturally this reminds me of when I was running Red Hand of Doom, the party slept in the swamp, and the wizard woke up in the jaws of a giant crocodile. Traumatized him well enough that bringing them back as zombies at the Battle of Brindol was pure gold.

Edit: As for encounter analysis- I'm more curious as to where the Lightning Bolts came from. Psurlons are MM2 and for a 12th level party I'd expect this was a group of Elders (CR 9). They have a pile of PHB mind crush spells at-will, and Stoneskin 1/day. Maybe there were some. . Grell I think have a lightning "weapon"?
Edit edit: Ah, the Lords of Madness version added 'bolts and Chain Lightning.

This is one of those examples where at high levels, creatures at -7 CR which are counted as barely worth xp speedbumps, are still resource drains causing unavoidable damage and requiring damage/spells/etc to stop. Which is how one can justify "trivial" obstacles (terrain/hazards) that still require effort to bypass as not being worth adjustments.

But based on previous entries, nah this is par for the course in Jon_Dahl's games- the RHoD campaign journal in their sig is one of the very few where the party fails, and while I took a similar stance in the beginning, by the end I was in full agreement that the party was doing most of it to themselves. Where forum-op likes to assume multiple T1 perfect spellcasters and genre-savviness, they often have a single Mystic Theurge and get caught out by little things like. . . sleeping on the ground in the woods alone.

[Jon_Dahl]

Hold Monster is a will save



I was talking about the coup dg.

Edit:

I'm not familiar with Psurlons, and there seem to be several at several different CRs, so I'd need to know which you were using to make any statement on the balance of the encounter, but generally...

The encounter that led to the deaths of two PCs was the three-PC party vs. four psurlons (one had only 1 hp left) and one giant psurlon. It was a classical dungeon encounter. The PCs knew that they would encounter psurlons.

[Kurald Galain]

The vibe I'm getting from this is that you as the GM come from the "let's create a sensible world" Combat-As-War mindset; whereas your players come from the "everything is level-appropriate" Combat-As-Sport mindset.


The mystic theurge slept in the woods, without any protection
For instance, thinking about how you sleep is irrelevant in a CAS mindset, whereas resting like this is suicidally stupid in a CAW game.


A pack of dire wolves came and attacked him while he was sleeping. He was quickly dead.
Likewise, from a CAW point of view, a 12th-level caster is pretty incompetent if he can't at least get away from a bunch of wild animals. Whereas in CAS he should be able to face them head-on and have a level-appropriate (and thus easily winnable) fight).

Check your expectations agains those of the players.

[Particle_Man]

Time to break out the Ghostwalk book and see if this party can fight their way back to life the hard way?

[Quertus]

I am the DM in a three-player high-level game with three 12th-level characters.

The mystic theurge slept in the woods, without any protection, and I rolled wandering monsters. A pack of dire wolves came and attacked him while he was sleeping. He was quickly dead. Several magic items plus 5000 gp worth of diamonds were left to the wolves.

Any comments?

* I do not know whether you roll the 5d100 mile 'offness' when you come back to the Prime Material Plane, but I do that. I have no specific explanation as to why I do that, but if you feel that I should stop doing that, I am listening.

So, it’s a high level game, and the 3 12th level characters are… the cohorts? Fanboys? :smallamused:

Personally, I’d be arguing for next game to start with the 1st level characters who stumbled across the MT’s dead body.

And why do you make diamonds rare? :smallconfused:

Yes, AFAIK, you roll for Plane Shift as you understood.

But, most of all, that’s what you get for being a squishy organic being that needs to sleep. :smalltongue:

[Sirperry]

Sounds like the player LET himself get killed by sleeping in the woods without any forethought. As a DM, I might of taken it easy on the lone character trying to raise his comrades . . . but I might not of, especially if the last player was taking stupid risks.

[D&D_Fan]

I have only party wiped three times, one was just pure chance, one was players being stupid, the last was an intentional wipe.

First time they died, it was some Bhaal cultists who just got really lucky against the party and managed to kill them. I gave them a mulligan on that one.

Second time was a spelljamming adventure, player fireballed a cloud of phlogiston and incinerated the party. Can't do much about that.

Third time was yet a different adventure, in which the party got killed by an odopi (giant fiend made of hands) that an angel sent to fight the party so that he could save them and make them do his job for him. The odopi was just an actor who happened to maul the entire party unconscious very quickly.

The point is, party wipes happen, sometimes because of chance, sometimes because you choose it as the DM for your own reasons, but it's not unreasonable to let the players try again if it wasn't intentional. It can be awkward, but there are ways to continue things

[Telonius]

Count me in the "puzzled that he didn't cast Teleport" crowd. Was that not a spell that he had in his book?

Also, one bit of curiosity - you say that he Plane Shifted to Sigil. It's been a while since I looked that stuff up, but I think that's generally not supposed to be able to happen (Lady of Pain, Vecna issues, possibility of destroying the multiverse, etc). You find an existing portal and use that. But I honestly can't remember if the portal is supposed to work both ways. Could he have just gone back out the same way?

[Quertus]

Also, one bit of curiosity - you say that he Plane Shifted to Sigil. It's been a while since I looked that stuff up, but I think that's generally not supposed to be able to happen (Lady of Pain, Vecna issues, possibility of destroying the multiverse, etc). You find an existing portal and use that. But I honestly can't remember if the portal is supposed to work both ways. Could he have just gone back out the same way?

Well, color me :smallredface:, I can’t believe I overlooked that. So now you have to retcon that some con artist has created a fake Sigil, and has been selling planar tuning forks to their fake Sigil… for reasons… to explain this series of events. Come to think of it, I think my brother messed up that detail of the “City of Doors”, too, at one point. Oops.

[Crake]

Well, color me :smallredface:, I can’t believe I overlooked that. So now you have to retcon that some con artist has created a fake Sigil, and has been selling planar tuning forks to their fake Sigil… for reasons… to explain this series of events. Come to think of it, I think my brother messed up that detail of the “City of Doors”, too, at one point. Oops.

In fairness, if that trait does exist for sigil, it's not written in the DMG's description of the city, so if you're just playing with the core rules, there's nothing suggesting that Sigil is planar locked.

It is NOT enormous though. Like, it's large for a city, but on the scale of "I appear 5-500 miles off target thanks to plane shift", you're probably gonna instead end up somewhere near the base of the spire in outland (if your DM is generous and teleports you straight to the ground, rather than putting you in a 5-500 mile SPHERE around sigil, if you end up in the air within 100 miles of the spire... good luck), which, as a mystic theurge, is probably one of the worst places to be, what with the lack of magic and all that.

[Jon_Dahl]

The point about Sigil being planar locked is valid. We completely fast tracked (sort of skipped) the visit to Sigil, so I will mention next time that he plane shifted to a portal which transported him to Sigil, and coming back he just followed his steps. I will refuse to give any additional information on this.

[Quertus]

In fairness, if that trait does exist for sigil, it's not written in the DMG's description of the city, so if you're just playing with the core rules, there's nothing suggesting that Sigil is planar locked.

Wow. That’s just… sigh. I suppose I could see someone leaving out that very important, setting defining detail.


It is NOT enormous though. Like, it's large for a city, but on the scale of "I appear 5-500 miles off target thanks to plane shift", you're probably gonna instead end up somewhere near the base of the spire in outland (if your DM is generous and teleports you straight to the ground, rather than putting you in a 5-500 mile SPHERE around sigil, if you end up in the air within 100 miles of the spire... good luck), which, as a mystic theurge, is probably one of the worst places to be, what with the lack of magic and all that.

It’ll be fine. Falling damage is capped, right? Besides, it’s only an infinite spire that they need to climb.

[Stoic]

I think I would have made the wandering monster roll in advance, prior to the player going to sleep, then as the day becomes night start giving him audio & visual clues that an attack is coming (howling or growling in the distance, seeing movement in the shadows, spotting a fresh animal carcass that had been mauled by a pack of animals).

If after that the player still goes to sleep without taking any precautions, he deserves whatever happens to him.

[FauxKnee]

I will refuse to give any additional information on this.

I recognize you don't want to elaborate, but this feels like an unsolved riddle. It's tough to leave it alone. Are there campaign-specific reasons why the mystic theurge didn't use any travel magic to return to the party?

Even if he didn't have the teleport spell on his arcane side, we know he has access to at least 5th level clerical magic. (Unless he was a favored soul or something :frown:) There are a lot of options available on the cleric list. As a quick example, both hound archons and succubi are eligible for lesser planar ally and have greater teleport, though of course the caster would have to climb into a bag of holding or similar first.

[Jon_Dahl]

I recognize you don't want to elaborate, but this feels like an unsolved riddle. It's tough to leave it alone. Are there campaign-specific reasons why the mystic theurge didn't use any travel magic to return to the party?

Even if he didn't have the teleport spell on his arcane side, we know he has access to at least 5th level clerical magic. (Unless he was a favored soul or something :frown:) There are a lot of options available on the cleric list. As a quick example, both hound archons and succubi are eligible for lesser planar ally and have greater teleport, though of course the caster would have to climb into a bag of holding or similar first.

What he did when he got back to Prime Material is something that I am willing to discuss. The details about travelling to and back from Sigil will not be disclosed, and the only reason for that is that the trip went against the fluff of Sigil and subsequently whole thing is largely an afterthought.

It seems that he had prepared spells for Sigil, and when he got back, he did not have the appropriate (?) spells for the Prime Material (I mean who needs to teleport in Sigil?), and he decided to prepare 'better' spells after taking a nap in the most dangerous aboveground place there is that particular kingdom.

[Kurald Galain]

It seems that he had prepared spells for Sigil, and when he got back, he did not have the appropriate (?) spells for the Prime Material (I mean who needs to teleport in Sigil?), and he decided to prepare 'better' spells after taking a nap in the most dangerous aboveground place there is that particular kingdom.

Sure, but Teleport is not the only way to deal with a pack of wolves. I find it hard to believe that a 12th-level wizard has nothing at all that does that.

[pabelfly]

So the Mystic Theurge has been part of at least one battle, fled, picked up the bodies of their companions, teleported to the City of Sigil and purchased diamonds. Why not rest here in a safe city, recover spell slots before reviving the companions? They should still have roughly eight days before Raise Dead doesn't work any more, correct?

[Jon_Dahl]

Sure, but Teleport is not the only way to deal with a pack of wolves. I find it hard to believe that a 12th-level wizard has nothing at all that does that.

He did cast fly defensively and then tried to fly away, but his movement was interrupted by a successful trip from one of the dire wolves. After that, he was consumed by the dire wolves.

You can argue that the trip would have had no effect on the flying wizard, but he was about set off from the ground. Since the trip was part of an AoO that interrupted the transition from ground to air, I resolved it normally.

[Kurald Galain]

You can argue that the trip would have had no effect on the flying wizard, but he was about set off from the ground. Since the trip was part of an AoO that interrupted the transition from ground to air, I resolved it normally.

Yeah, that's fair. I would, however, argue that this wizard apparently didn't make a knowledge check (or he would have known that provoking an OA was not smart), in addition to having poor defenses for a 12th level character, in addition to having no other spells available to deal with a CR 3 creature with no defenses to speak of. Seriously, how did this guy ever make it to 12th level?

[ciopo]

Yeah, that's fair. I would, however, argue that this wizard apparently didn't make a knowledge check (or he would have known that provoking an OA was not smart), in addition to having poor defenses for a 12th level character, in addition to having no other spells available to deal with a CR 3 creature with no defenses to speak of. Seriously, how did this guy ever make it to 12th level? 12th level mystic theurge assuming a 3/3 entry has "lots" of slots but the spell access of two 9th level casters, so that he got ganked by bruisers that started already in melee range due to surprised-while-sleeping isn't too big a stretch to me, especially if he was already with bunches of resources expended

Why no rope trick/ tiny hut/ alarm is an eyebrow moment, we don't know what precedents there are about keeping watch and such. Maybe they never had to otherwise rest out in the wildernesses ever since he got teleport, and therefore had no rope trick prepared

[Jon_Dahl]

Yeah, that's fair. I would, however, argue that this wizard apparently didn't make a knowledge check (or he would have known that provoking an OA was not smart), in addition to having poor defenses for a 12th level character, in addition to having no other spells available to deal with a CR 3 creature with no defenses to speak of. Seriously, how did this guy ever make it to 12th level?

Unfortunately, he did not have the necessary knowledge skill. Unless one proposes that all types of wolves count as DC 10 knowledge checks.

[Remuko]

How long was the trip on the boat? he took a boat trip before sleeping, he could have slept on the boat to restore spell slots and re-prepare material plane spells.

[Jon_Dahl]

How long was the trip on the boat? he took a boat trip before sleeping, he could have slept on the boat to restore spell slots and re-prepare material plane spells.

I don't think we discussed that, but it took more than one day.

[King of Nowhere]

I see nothing really wrong with the whole sequence. looks more like bad luck with dice than anything else.
as others pointed out, the theurge at 12th level may have had a lot of options to avoid the trouble (really, how did he get killed by dire wolves at level 12?), but I don't know what spell he has or hasn't.

probably bad strategy on part of other players too; a coup de grace is a full round action that can be interrupted a number of ways, the party could have defended their incapacitated member. also, I don't know how common magic items are in your campaign, i do expect a fighter to cover his most blatant weaknesses by level 12 but I also hand out enough stuff that people can afford to buy the required items without selling their families as slaves (which, now that I think about it, would be a nice way to make use of one's background).
of course, he could have had a good will save buff and still rolled low.

so yes, a mix of strategic errors and bad rolls. nothing unusual; this is how tpk happen on sane tables.

[Sneak Dog]

Ouch. Hold monster into coup de grâce is pretty brutal. Fair enough. I suppose that'll teach them to trust pirates.

[Eurus]

Hold monster into CdG is pretty brutal if you have it set up as a combo between two monsters on the same turn, I might even say excessively brutal... although level twelve is high enough that I would probably consider it to be fair play. It's still kinda mean, but that's 3.5 for you, chock full of save or dies.

I think a three person party is going to be more vulnerable to runs of bad luck like that, too. Losing your only frontliner is a bad situation.

[martixy]

High level but low power, I guess?

In my mind there is no way a 12th level party would be falling to a pack of landlocked meatbags. But I am heavily biased towards high power. In my conception of 3.5e I'd be expecting a party at literally half the level to wipe the floor with these worms.

In this case what @Kurald Galain said applies. You might need to realign your group's expectations. And not necessarily yourself towards them, but sit down as a group and figure out what they expect and what you want to do, and where you can meet in the middle.

[Particle_Man]

I too am curious as to where you go from here, in-game (if this campaign continues somehow) or if you start anew, perhaps with a “session zero” discussion with the group.

[noce]

probably bad strategy on part of other players too; a coup de grace is a full round action that can be interrupted a number of ways, the party could have defended their incapacitated member. also, I don't know how common magic items are in your campaign, i do expect a fighter to cover his most blatant weaknesses by level 12

Not only this, but a coup de grace means death only if the victim fails a Fort save (10 + damage): a giant Psurlon critical hit is 23 on average, so DC 33 Fort save without DR (it drops to DC 30 even with a pity lesser crystal for just 2000 gp).
I would assume a multiclass lvl 12 fighter to have at least 17-18 Fort save, based on level split and magic items.
I would also assume a way to reroll saves by level 12.
So, succumbing to a coup de grace is not something I would take for granted in such a situation, unless the fighter is badly equipped.

On top on that, Third Eye Freedom is just 2600 gp.

[Jon_Dahl]

Not only this, but a coup de grace means death only if the victim fails a Fort save (10 + damage): a giant Psurlon critical hit is 23 on average, so DC 33 Fort save without DR (it drops to DC 30 even with a pity lesser crystal for just 2000 gp).
I would assume a multiclass lvl 12 fighter to have at least 17-18 Fort save, based on level split and magic items.
I would also assume a way to reroll saves by level 12.
So, succumbing to a coup de grace is not something I would take for granted in such a situation, unless the fighter is badly equipped.

On top on that, Third Eye Freedom is just 2600 gp.

The CdG damage was just measly 12 points. I do not remember why the damage was so low, but maybe it was a bite. Hence, the DC 22 fort save that was failed.

[Remuko]

I don't think we discussed that, but it took more than one day.

then that's just weird. he had multiple days to prepare spells that would be useful here, or even just a teleport to get him where he needed to go, after getting back from Sigil. very very odd play from the caster.

[icefractal]

A lot of GMs do enter shortcut mode in situations like this, where the point is to get the other players back in action ASAP. In that mode, the question is just whether you have a way to resurrect them and are willing to pay the cost. So no encounters will happen unless really forced, and the player of the surviving PC is expected to act expeditiously (in real time) and not spend time on unnecessary precautions or side matters.

So if the player in question isn't familiar with your GM style, this seems like a natural mistake. You're thinking of the return from Sigil as "a challenge they should approach as seriously as any other" and they're thinking of it as "something to skim through so we can all be playing again"

[Jon_Dahl]

A lot of GMs do enter shortcut mode in situations like this, where the point is to get the other players back in action ASAP. In that mode, the question is just whether you have a way to resurrect them and are willing to pay the cost. So no encounters will happen unless really forced, and the player of the surviving PC is expected to act expeditiously (in real time) and not spend time on unnecessary precautions or side matters.

So if the player in question isn't familiar with your GM style, this seems like a natural mistake. You're thinking of the return from Sigil as "a challenge they should approach as seriously as any other" and they're thinking of it as "something to skim through so we can all be playing again"

Yes, but the other players were already half done creating new characters, and the player of MT knew this.

[Particle_Man]

Oh that changes things. Maybe the MT player wanted to make a new character to start fresh with the other two new characters?

[Coeruleum]

From an outside POV, this looks more like an attempt to kill your party. But maybe they like living dangerously.

I'm not familiar with Psurlons, and there seem to be several at several different CRs, so I'd need to know which you were using to make any statement on the balance of the encounter, but generally...

Hold Monster is a will save, 9/10 times it's going to completely screw any non-caster.

Coup de grace is almost always a move I avoid without very explicit reason to do so or desire from the player.

I roll a Percentile for accuracy with all teleporting, but it is reduced with caster level, and only goes up to 100 miles off. But this reads an awful lot like "Player is trying to help their friends, the DM is doing everything they can to keep them from getting back." I don't understand why the Mystic could Plane Shift back....but not teleport from the island to his hometown?

I have no real problem with enemies playing smart. But this "series of unfortunate events" looks a bit sus from the outside. Maybe I'm overly generous with my players.

Yes. Especially since there are lots of ways of raising the dead without diamonds, and the PC just didn't pick any of those. Lowering the availability of diamonds doesn't make it super harder to resurrect PCs, it just makes it harder for that particular character. I don't even want to tell OP about these things because then OP will just nerf other kinds of characters into oblivion too, or even ban them. Heck, OP probably told their players what to play. I've done lots of theurging but never the actual mystic theurge class because it's never seemed that good to me, and in a world where you can't actually get materials for arcane or divine spells easily, it seems much worse than it seems in worlds where you have plenty of materials available compared to this one. Arcane Hierophant is probably a better theurge class for arcane/divine than straight Mystic Theurge regardless of resources. In a limited-resources world, I'd be inclined to go Mind Mage, Noctumancer, Soul Manifester, Soulcaster, Anima Mage, Eldritch Theurge, Jade Phoenix Mage, or basically anything else that at least gives me one option that isn't dependent on gold, expensive materials, and expensive focuses to use, though. Mystic Theurge feels like the epitome of wallet-casting and doesn't even give you class features like Arcane Hierophant does. Arcane Hierophant is better than Mystic Theurge for the same reason Mind Mage is better than Cerebremancer (but you might need some levels of both to round out your progression.)