Does Incarnate Construct remove class features?

[Rebel7284]

Incarnate Construct template says, in part:



Special Attacks: The base creature loses all its special attacks.
Special Qualities: The base creature loses all its special qualities.


Since the template can be applied any time with a spell, I was always curious about builds that applied the template once or even multiple times, something like <High LA/Low HD Construct race+Templates> Spellcasting 5/Renegate Mastermaker 10/Green Star Adept 10

However, I am wondering if RAW, the template would remove all class features. While classes don't typically group abilities into special attacks/special qualities, it seems that all (EX), (SU), and (SP) abilities should fall into those two categories. Of course spellcasting is a weird one as spells ARE often listed as special attacks, but outside of those two creatures in MM4, spellcasting itself is not typically typed. Would spellcasting ability be removed?

Also, if folks have thoughts about high LA, low HD creatures to use here, especially considering that racial Special Qualities and Special Attacks will be removed, let me know. I guess only base stats remain at that point? Or I guess if the consensus is that ALL class features + spellcasting is removed, the build is dead on arrival and I don't need template suggestions. :smallsmile:

[Crake]

Even if they are, you can solve the issue by level draining yourself to level 1, then using restoration or a thought bottle to bring yourself back up to your max level and regain all your class levels and thus subsequently all your class features (except whatever you might've gained at level 1 I guess)

Alternatively, use the rebuilding rules to.... rebuild yourself to the same class levels just rejiggered a bit? I dunno, I feel like if there are legal, very clearcut within the rules shenannigans that can do it, I would say just skip the shenannigans altogether and just leave the class features untouched. Like, you're not losing the levels, just the features? That's a bit silly imo.

[Rebel7284]

Gonna bump this for other opinions.

I will also say that I am not sure if the rules are clear whether restoration and thought bottle give you sparkling new HD or restore pre-existing HD in their last known state. Considering the wording, I suspect that many DM would rule that you're just restoring old HD.

[Eldonauran]

Base creatures have no class abilities to be effected by templates. They (class features) are something that are ADDED on top of the creature. Sometimes, you will have changes made to the base creature by class features, but those are effects of the classes themselves. (Base Creature + Racial Templates) + (Class Features) and NOT (Base Creature + Class Features) + (Racial Templates)

This is an issue with the perception of the order of operations.

[Rebel7284]

Base creatures have no class abilities to be effected by templates. They (class features) are something that are ADDED on top of the creature. Sometimes, you will have changes made to the base creature by class features, but those are effects of the classes themselves. (Base Creature + Racial Templates) + (Class Features) and NOT (Base Creature + Class Features) + (Racial Templates)

This is an issue with the perception of the order of operations.

That makes sense, especially with inherited templates, with that said:

1. Is there specific rules text from which you are drawing this opinion?
2. This interpretation would make it impossible for template to affect a class feature, but there are definitely some that do, for example Favored Soul gives wings, would Mineral Warrior not be able to remove those? (assuming Mineralize Warrior was cast after you got the wings)


Hmmm.

[ShurikVch]

Note: Incarnate Construct is not inherited, but acquired template - it definitely can be applied after some class levels...

[Crake]

Gonna bump this for other opinions.

I will also say that I am not sure if the rules are clear whether restoration and thought bottle give you sparkling new HD or restore pre-existing HD in their last known state. Considering the wording, I suspect that many DM would rule that you're just restoring old HD.

Thought bottle DEFINITELY allows you to pick whatever you want again, as all it does is restore your XP level to your previous one (-300 iirc), so you can do what you want with that xp.

Restoration says it restores "one experience level" to the creature, it doesn't say anything about specifically restoring previously gained levels or anything. Once your experience level is restored, you go through the same levelup process as normal.

[Eldonauran]

1. Is there specific rules text from which you are drawing this opinion?
Templates, by their very nature, are exceptions to the rules and are generally under the oversight of the GM (so ask your GM). Unless the rules say otherwise, it is best to use simple methodology in which to arrive to the conclusion. This does require a rather firm grasp of most of the rules and the ability to keep all of them in mind to ensure a consistent application.

So, no. There is no specific rule. There is a whole lot of rules that are being used to generalize the approach to this issue.

2. This interpretation would make it impossible for template to affect a class feature, but there are definitely some that do, for example Favored Soul gives wings, would Mineral Warrior not be able to remove those? (assuming Mineralize Warrior was cast after you got the wings)It is probably a good idea to completely separate the class features from the base creature in your mind when you apply templates. Unless the template SPECIFICALLY calls out the removal of class features, don't even consider them as part of the equation when applying templates. A Mineral Warrior template applied to a creature with wings would retain their wings, because those wings are a class feature, not a racial feature of the base creature. The same would go for those acquired through feats (assuming you still qualify for those feat, of course).


That is the only consistent manner in which I can see the rules operating without direct contradictions in places, or specific language to override the general order of operations.