Strongest dragon for the buck

[Idea Man]

I'll admit it; I have an irrational love of dragons. No good reason, they're just cool. Icon of the game, quintessential villain, baddest of bada** mounts you can have! But, for all that, which one is the "best"?

Which dragon is most dangerous for it's listed CR? In this case, let's assume meeting the dragon on it's home or ideal turf, making full use of available treasure/equipment, and dragon meaning anything with the dragon racial type.

I'd say it's the ibrandlin, from MoF. A CR 5 gargantuan (!) dragon.
*it has 10 HD (and, thus, +10 BAB)
*str of 35 and a con of 24
*has power attack, improved bull rush, and blind-fight
*bite does 4d6+12 and it has four claw attacks that do 2d8+6 each
*spell resistance of 20
*it also has a pin extraordinary ability that allows it to jump on to medium-size or smaller opponents. They get a DC 21 Reflex save or they are pinned (as the grapple manuver), its choice whether to deal 4d6 damage. If the victims lie still, they are just pinned, but if they try and free themselves, they take 4d6 damage per round until they escape.

It does have weak points (AC of 17, int of 4, fire subtype, 20 ft speed, dinky breath weapon), and could be made stronger (multiattack is the most noteable improvement), but I think a well placed ibrandlin will destroy just about any party of four 5th level characters. Even a straght fight that doesn't immediately nix the dragon (say, starting 300 ft away) will probably kill everyone.

Yes, shivering touch would probably null the dragon, but the wizard would have to actually touch it, not something a wizard would normally want to do at that level.

By the way, I checked the 3.5 update, and the CR apparently did not change. I think the only update was a missing feat (imp. bull rush).

Is there a better dragon than this? Not cooler; this one doesn't even have wings. :smallwink:

[brian c]

Whoa... That Damn Crab may have competition for most under-CRed. 4d6+12 damage and SR 20? Unbelievable.

[dyslexicfaser]

It can't measure up to yours, but the Dragon Turtle is a CR 8 encounter that can capsize ships of any size.

12 HD, 27 Str, 21 con, 17 natural armor, immune to fire and sleep and paralysis.

[deadseashoals]

That sounds utterly broken for its CR.

[WrstDmEvr]

Now for the templates:smallbiggrin:

[AslanCross]

How on earth did that get away with a CR 5? O_o I never noticed it was Gargantuan before. Don't forget that it has an AB of +18 on its bite and +13 on its FOUR CLAWS. 2d8+6 damage on the claws, too.

[Drider]

How on earth did that get away with a CR 5? O_o I never noticed it was Gargantuan before. Don't forget that it has an AB of +18 on its bite and +13 on its FOUR CLAWS. 2d8+6 damage on the claws, too.

But...with an int of 4, is it gonna add everything up correctly? :durkon:


:biggrin:

[Lemur]

How on earth did that get away with a CR 5? O_o I never noticed it was Gargantuan before. Don't forget that it has an AB of +18 on its bite and +13 on its FOUR CLAWS. 2d8+6 damage on the claws, too.

It's probably evolved to kill Faerunian adventurers at level 5, before they can get into all the crazy prestige classes the setting has.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

It's probably evolved to kill Faerunian adventurers at level 5, before they can get into all the crazy prestige classes the setting has.

Which would explain why everyone else has at least ten levels in a PC class. They'd HAVE to if they lived through the mid-levels with those things around

Although I have to go for the Shadow Dragon. A breath weapon that deals negative levels?!

[Behold_the_Void]

I think there's a dragon in... is it Dark Sun? Or whatever. It breathes Mordenkainen's Disjunction.

[Randalor]

My vote is for Blighterghast *Iron Kingdoms*.

-48 HD
-50 Str, 40 Con, 33 Int, 30 Wis
-a breath attack for 28d10 damage that burns for an extra 15d10 damage a round until the person puts it out
-can create a fog cloud spell that he can control at will and burns everything inside of it for 5d10 damage a round *not much, granted, but still*
- Everything around him for 48 miles is corrupted and under his control.

And the sad part is, he isn't even the most powerful dragon in the IK universe *Lord Toruk is a living god who has an entire continent under his blight, and who's CR is "You die long before you even get to his mountain"*

[SeekerInTheNight]

Alright, here's a question. Does summoning (or making) a dustform ibrandlin make it lose fire subtype?

((For those who don't know, dustform is a Sandstorm template that involves dead animals returning as dust ghost kind of things. They gain some DR, lose some hp, gain some AC, get a breath weapon (an upgrade for the ibrandlin), and become the construct type.))

EDIT: The pyroclastic dragon is pretty ridiculous, especially if you can beef up its breath weapon. (It breaths fire/sonic cone or disintegrate line)

[Idea Man]

@Behold the Void: That must be a very sad (:smallfrown: )dragon. His most powerful ability destroys all of his good treasure

@Randalor: What's the CR on a blightergast?

@SeekerInTheNight: Unless it says so, it should keep any subtypes. If the breath weapon gets boosted, it can use that instaed of it's bite in a full attack. Says so in the description. :smallbiggrin:

I'm willing to look into making a Divine Pseudonatural Paragon Advanced Ibrandlin, since that seems to be the most powerful template build. probably not going to rival the Damn Crab (okay, it really won't), but maybe I can whip something up. I need to plan some stuff for my game tomorrow morning (later today, whatever), so I'll get back to you on that. :smallwink:

[deadseashoals]

In fact, this thing is so utterly broken that it's one of the few creatures I'd feel justified using ray of stupidity on, if a DM ever threw one at an actual 5th-level party.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

@Behold the Void: That must be a very sad (:smallfrown: )dragon. His most powerful ability destroys all of his good treasure

@Randalor: What's the CR on a blightergast?

@SeekerInTheNight: Unless it says so, it should keep any subtypes. If the breath weapon gets boosted, it can use that instaed of it's bite in a full attack. Says so in the description. :smallbiggrin:

I'm willing to look into making a Divine Pseudonatural Paragon Advanced Ibrandlin, since that seems to be the most powerful template build. probably not going to rival the Damn Crab (okay, it really won't), but maybe I can whip something up. I need to plan some stuff for my game tomorrow morning (later today, whatever), so I'll get back to you on that. :smallwink:

hmm...could you make it half celestial to boot? not sure about the 3.5 one, but the 3.0 half celestial with a fire immune creature was a beautiful thing...ooh...and don't forget to add psionic template as well...the one from the 3.0 psionics book was goss and horribly broken...which is probably why they did away with it for the expanded book.

[Renegade Paladin]

What's the one that casts as a 22nd level sorcerer at CR 18 at the great wyrm stage? Steel dragons, I think? :smallamused:

[Draz74]

For the most powerful dragon for its CR, I recommend something with a lot of "nonassociated" but helpful class levels. :smallcool: Even the inbrandlin could probably get nastier this way.

Also, every old dragon should take 1 level of Sorcerer, even if it counts as an associated level. The boost to spellcasting is small but nice, but the real reason is to get ... a familiar! Because a familiar should no longer be thought of as a liability, not when it's got half the HP of an old dragon, and all of the BAB!!! In fact, see if you can take Improved Familiar and get something with 13 Str and Power Attack, and you can suddenly be Delivering Touch Spells and doing reasonable damage at the same time. Ow!

@Renegade Paladin: OK, actually, that one has my vote. Full casters are really the most under-CRed things in the game anyway, and this one can fight well too. Yikes.

[Randalor]

@Randalor: What's the CR on a blightergast?


CR 37, and most of the magic cheese in IK doesn't exist *well, some does, but it has disturbingly not-good side effects, like being permanently marked as someone who deals with Infernal beings, even if you don't*

[Frosty]

An Int 4 dragon is asking to be Ray of Stupiditied too...but yeah otherwise it is about 5 CRs too low at the very least.

[lord_khaine]

ill still vote for that CR 5 critter, its just to dam low, and challenge rating has a much bigger impact on those levels than it have higher up.

[MaxMahem]

While that CR 5 one sounds pretty mean I have also found Rust Dragons to be particularly nasty. Especially against a melee heavy party very reliant on there melee weapons.

Consider this, you make a huge rust dragon and give it the snatch and swallow feats. Then, grab the fighter/cleric and digest him. When in the dragons mouth he does not get a save if subjected to the rust dragons breath weapon, and hence all his metal equipment (magic items included) is destroyed (hope you had a wooden holy symbol!). Then, after being digested he is again subjected to the breath weapon effect without save (just in case you didn't use it while he was in mouth), and has little to no chance of escape. He needs to deal slashing or piercing damage to get out of the dragons belly, but without any metal equipment that is just about impossible to do. For bonus points consider that the constant damage a round makes it very difficult to cast spells as well.

I don't recommend using this on your PCs though, they will not be happy with you if you destroy all their equipment with no save chance!

[Talic]

Pound for pound physically? That CR5 has it.

Overall, including intellect, battlefield shaping, terrain advantage, and the like?

Blue.

Arid, inhospitable environs, easy to bury people with the right prep work whilst burrowing through sand (and what dragon wouldn't prep their lair??), illusion, voice throwing? I mean, when you combine the temperament to kill, the power to kill, and enough misdirection to make people not know where it's coming from, it's a pretty good combo.

[Cuddly]

An Int 4 dragon is asking to be Ray of Stupiditied too...but yeah otherwise it is about 5 CRs too low at the very least.

Good luck breaking the SR20 at level 5....

[Frosty]

Cast Sure Casting before hand. Get +10 to penetrate SR on next spell.

[Burrito]

Well, not sure about the 3.0 or 3.5 dragons, but the DragonKing of Tyr, was about the most badass of the 2nd edition dragons. Even with the DM being nice, it was almost a TPK.

[Thrawn183]

and still have at least a decent chance of failing to penetrate

[Closet_Skeleton]

Cast Sure Casting before hand. Get +10 to penetrate SR on next spell.

That's an extra turn of spellcasting. A turn the dragon can use to charge you and bit your frail wizard head off.

[bugsysservant]

The Ibrandlin is the reason I almost don't have MoF. I picked up the book in the store, and flipped to a random page. After seeing the Ibrandlin statistics first thing, it almost scared me enough to just put the book down and walk out.

[Frosty]

Two round kill is better than anything else you can do. Besides, that's why you are a Conjuration Specialist. You Abrupt Jaunt out of the way when the dragon charges.

Heck the dragon can only perform one attack on the charge. You can have Mirror Images protecting you.

[....]

Two round kill is better than anything else you can do. Besides, that's why you are a Conjuration Specialist. You Abrupt Jaunt out of the way when the dragon charges.

Heck the dragon can only perform one attack on the charge. You can have Mirror Images protecting you.

Its made clear yet again that wizards are super-overpowered...

As long as they have exactly one encounter that they know everything about beforehand.

[Frosty]

Mirror Image isn't exactly something obscure you only prepare once in a while. If your DM is throwing that Dragon at you at level 5, it better be the only encounter that day, and he bette rgive you hints as to what you're fighting, or he's just ASKING for a wipe.

[Rachel Lorelei]

This thing's will save is going to be around +7-+9. That means a 20-INT wizard (18 INT, +2 item)'s Glitterdust is going to have a 40-50% chance of suceeding.

If the party (including the wizard himself--Mirror Image, etc) can keep the wizard alive for the two or three rounds it'll take to blind it. Throwing down a Grease in the first round should keep it occupied, too.

Then the wizard casts Haste on the party, who proceed to pepper the blind, 20-ft-movement-speed dragon-thing with arrows.


If the thing wins initiative and eats the wizard, the party is screwed.

[Xyk]

Mirror Image isn't exactly something obscure you only prepare once in a while. If your DM is throwing that Dragon at you at level 5, it better be the only encounter that day, and he bette rgive you hints as to what you're fighting, or he's just ASKING for a wipe.

Be a sorcerer! I prefer them anyways, more fun and if u choose the right spells, way more powerful than a wizard.

[Reel On, Love]

Be a sorcerer! I prefer them anyways, more fun and if u choose the right spells, way more powerful than a wizard.

Fun is very personal. I prefer wizards to sorcerers, fun-wise. I hate how limited sorcerers are.

Choosing the right spells doesn't make you more powerful than a wizard. You have one more spell/day than a specialist, and the advantage of spontaneous casting.
There *WILL* be great spells, especially the "cast 1/day" ones, that you don't know. A Sorcerer can't afford to take things like Overland Flight, Rope Trick, Foresight, and so on, because of how sharply they limit your options. You can spontaneously cast the spells you do know, but you're just plain out of luck if you ever need one not on your list. The wizard can fill in an empty spell slot in 15 minutes or come back tomorrow.

And you really, really don't know enough spells. Show me a sorcerer's spell list and I'll show you an arcanist who is missing at least two (and at most levels, far more) top-notch spells of every level--spells that would be useful on a regular basis.

[Guy_Whozevl]

This thing's will save is going to be around +7-+9. That means a 20-INT wizard (18 INT, +2 item)'s Glitterdust is going to have a 40-50% chance of suceeding.

If the party (including the wizard himself--Mirror Image, etc) can keep the wizard alive for the two or three rounds it'll take to blind it. Throwing down a Grease in the first round should keep it occupied, too.

Then the wizard casts Haste on the party, who proceed to pepper the blind, 20-ft-movement-speed dragon-thing with arrows.


If the thing wins initiative and eats the wizard, the party is screwed.

At level 5, the Wizard has access to fly. All he needs to do is win Initiative and get the heck out of there. If he's an Elf, he can probably fly around, peppering the dragon with arrows until it dies (with 4 Intelligence, all it probably will do is try and snap at the Wizard, obviously failing). If the Wizard does lose Initiative, but isn't caught in a surprise round before that, he should survive an initial attack (provided it isn't a full attack), but will die to the AoO from casting the Fly spell. This is only provided that the dragon knows that the Wizard is a Wizard (which it won't). Clerics can also function okay against this guy with the Travel domain (which nets him Fly). Other than that, I don't see how anyone else in the party can pepper the dragon with arrows; they have no way of staying alive, Glitterdust/Grease or not (a fifty percent chance isn't very good at all). The DCs of a Wizard are too low at that point to be a serious threat to a 10 HD dragon (which gets good saves). The dragon can charge someone and probably pin them, screwing them over. It isn't a TPK, but very close to one.

[Rachel Lorelei]

At level 5, the Wizard has access to fly. All he needs to do is win Initiative and get the heck out of there. If he's an Elf, he can probably fly around, peppering the dragon with arrows until it dies (with 4 Intelligence, all it probably will do is try and snap at the Wizard, obviously failing). If the Wizard does lose Initiative, but isn't caught in a surprise round before that, he should survive an initial attack (provided it isn't a full attack), but will die to the AoO from casting the Fly spell. This is only provided that the dragon knows that the Wizard is a Wizard (which it won't). Clerics can also function okay against this guy with the Travel domain (which nets him Fly). Other than that, I don't see how anyone else in the party can pepper the dragon with arrows; they have no way of staying alive, Glitterdust/Grease or not (a fifty percent chance isn't very good at all). The DCs of a Wizard are too low at that point to be a serious threat to a 10 HD dragon (which gets good saves). The dragon can charge someone and probably pin them, screwing them over. It isn't a TPK, but very close to one.

Actually, a 50% chance is just fine--that means that one out of two spells will succeed. So you need to survive for one or two rounds (Fly, Mirror Image, etc). Those are as good odds as you ever get with dragons. The dragon has 10 levels of good save, which means +7; I guessed +7-+9 Will save because of its low INT, which implies unexceptional mental stats. If the dragon is Glitterdusted, it's blind; that means it doesn't know where the PCs are. If it wants to pinpoint them, it needs to make Listen checks, which takes a move action--so staying away from the dragon should be doable.
Anyone it pinned the first round is toast, but other than that, it is possible to take this thing out.
Unless the wizard isn't good at his job or gets unlucky.

[Irreverent Fool]

That sounds utterly broken for its CR.

If you read the description and bear in mind that these things only have an intelligence of 4, I don't think a level 5 party would have too much trouble taking one down if it's on its own. They are dumb. Dumb dumb dumb. They're designed to be commanded around by much more powerful clerics, thus meaning a much higher level party would be encountering them.

[tyckspoon]

If you read the description and bear in mind that these things only have an intelligence of 4, I don't think a level 5 party would have too much trouble taking one down if it's on its own. They are dumb. Dumb dumb dumb. They're designed to be commanded around by much more powerful clerics, thus meaning a much higher level party would be encountering them.

Ok, it's not smart, but 4 Int is smart enough to take class levels and speak languages. This isn't a 'follow a Silent Image in circles for eternity' level of brainlessness. It has enough brains to learn to identify the typical appearance of a spellcaster and to know they should be eaten first. It's also smart enough to know when something is out of its league and to just go away if people start flying out of its reach.

[Rachel Lorelei]

Oh, yeah, Silent Image! That'd be quite useful against this thing, too--especially if you can (as good Images do) deny it the saving throw.

[Kompera]

Actually, a 50% chance is just fine--that means that one out of two spells will succeed. So you need to survive for one or two rounds (Fly, Mirror Image, etc).That's not quite how probability works. 2 50% chances is a 75% chance to succeed once. How many spells is your Wizard casting now? One or two Glitterdust (out of 3 2nd level spells assuming a 20 INT), Fly (3rd), Mirror Image (2nd, and that's it for 2nd level spells). If she's not a specialist her spells are running a bit low at this point. If she is a specialist she may not have access to all of the above.

I agree with ...., this is yet another case of the Wizard being assumed to have selected the exact set of spells necessary to make the rest of the group superfluous and to beat any single (even well overpowered) encounter.


with 4 Intelligence, all it probably will do is try and snap at the Wizard, obviously failingThat play would be very unfair to the dragon.

Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise).It may be a bit dim, but it is intelligent enough to speak Common, and unless you'd like the GM to rule that your INT 4 Fighter must repeatedly take auto fail actions, ruling this for a NPC is also unreasonable.

Edit: Typo

[Jack_Simth]

That's not quite how probability works. 2 50% chances is a 75% chance to succeed once. How many spells is your Wizard casting now? One or two Glitterdust (out of 3 2nd level spells assuming a 20 INT), Fly (3rd), Mirror Image (2nd, and that's it for 2nd level spells). If she's not a specialist her spells are running a bit low at this point. If she is a specialist she may not have access to all of the above.
No - there's a 50% chance of taking it down on the first round, a 25% chance of taking it down on the 2nd round, a 12.5% chance of taking it down on the third, a 6.25% chance of taking it down on the 4th, a 3.125% chance of taking it down on the fifth, and so on - the average takedown works out to about the round 2, assuming the Wizard can keep this up to infinity with 50% chances (although Mr. Wizard shouldn't really be able to keep that up past about round two or three).

[Mr. Friendly]

While that CR5 abomination is really the clear winner thanks to non-associated class rules and HD advancement....

There are a few others worth mentioning.

Shadow Dragon. It really is a godless killing machine. Nothing says hilarity like handing out negative levels in an area of effect. Extra levels of win included if the Shadow has levels of something necromancerish.

Rust Dragon. While there are plenty of dragons that are "better" the Rust Dragon is, quite frankly, the DMs ultimate vengeance. Nothing better than destroying everyones equipment and treasure. For maximum fun, send in a decently aged Rust Dragon with as many as needed Half-Dragon (Rust) Rust Monsters.

Fang Dragons. Just thematically appealing to me. I like the whole bite for CON drain thing.

Deep Dragons. Not especially powerful. I just like Deep Dragons though because of how personally disturbing I find the effects of their breath weapon.

[WrstDmEvr]

Add the half celestial/half fiend template for an extra 2 CR which gives it a whole load of abilities.

[Rachel Lorelei]

That's not quite how probability works. 2 50% chances is a 75% chance to succeed once. How many spells is your Wizard casting now? One or two Glitterdust (out of 3 2nd level spells assuming a 20 INT), Fly (3rd), Mirror Image (2nd, and that's it for 2nd level spells). If she's not a specialist her spells are running a bit low at this point. If she is a specialist she may not have access to all of the above.
My wizard is a specialist. She is quite naturally a Conjuration specialist, since the school annihilates all others (aside from Divination, which hides, and Transmutation, which is merely heavily wounded, not thoroughly killed). As per the "Batman Guide", which is so popular on these forums (and by and large full of sound advice, although there's a few misunderstandings and some more places where I'd disagree), she's banned Enchantment and Evocation.
Mirror Image is cast from a scroll; it's not particularily caster-level-dependant. Fly may or may not be cast from a scroll, but I'm likely preparing either Fly OR Mirror Image, not both. Or I could prepare both, if I don't trust my party and my AC (Mage Armor, mithral buckler, dex, ring of protection +1) to keep me somewhat safe.


I agree with ...., this is yet another case of the Wizard being assumed to have selected the exact set of spells necessary to make the rest of the group superfluous and to beat any single (even well overpowered) encounter.
Is it really so unlikely that my wizard has two Glitterdusts, a Mirror Image or a Fly, and a Grease or Silent Image or both? That actually sounds like a fairly optimal "don't know what we'll be facing" spell selection to me!
Let's fill in the rest of the slots: two Ray of Enfeeblements, Enlarge Person, and Mage Armor for level 1 (Silent Image comes from scrolls; one Grease prepared), an Alter Self and a third Glitterdust for level 2 (Mirror Images on scrolls--alternatively, a Mirror Image in the Alter Self slot), and Haste, Ray of Exhaustion, and Stinking Cloud or Summon Monster III.

I'm having a hard time thinking of CR 3-8 opponents that's a bad spell selection for. Incorporeal ones, maybe? Either way, I feel pretty secure picking those spells almost every day, and while this is a hypothetical exercise, that resembles the real spell selection of wizards I've played in real games at that level very closely!


As usual with wizards, the problem isn't an "exact spell selection", it's a spell selection filled with one of quite a fair number of combinations of too-good spells. And that's not to say the level 5 wizard is guaranteed to take out this wyrm; he could easily get squished on the first round, or have multiple party members squished while he tries to deal with this thing. Even if he does manage to let the party triumph, he'll have used more than 20% of his daily resources, that's for sure.
But then, we knew that this thing was under-CRed; my point was just that it wasn't unbeatable at level 5--even for a party without any cheese beyond "Highly Competent Wizard" (who isn't using broken stuff like Shivering Touch, just top-of-the-line spells). A competent wizard makes a huge difference in a lot of encounters, and that's factored into some CRs.

[Guy_Whozevl]

Actually, a 50% chance is just fine--that means that one out of two spells will succeed. So you need to survive for one or two rounds (Fly, Mirror Image, etc). Those are as good odds as you ever get with dragons. The dragon has 10 levels of good save, which means +7; I guessed +7-+9 Will save because of its low INT, which implies unexceptional mental stats. If the dragon is Glitterdusted, it's blind; that means it doesn't know where the PCs are. If it wants to pinpoint them, it needs to make Listen checks, which takes a move action--so staying away from the dragon should be doable.
Anyone it pinned the first round is toast, but other than that, it is possible to take this thing out.
Unless the wizard isn't good at his job or gets unlucky.

Not really true. First off, Will saves are based off Wisdom, not Intelligence. Furthermore, having low Intelligence does not automatically mean mental stats are poor. Look at many animals. They have cruddy Int. and Cha., but their Wisdom is extremely good. Why so? It represents the instinct they use to survive. I would assume that this dragon has a decent Wisdom score for the same reason. Also, as a dragon (even though it isn't a true dragon), it should have Blindsight or something to that effect (the Psudodragon does, why not this one?). It can still pinpoint the party and rip everything to shreds (sans well-played Wizard, Cleric, or possibly even a Monk who just runs the heck out of there rather than fight). The Wizard, however, has a poor chance of succeeding on the SoD spells you get at fifth level.

[Rachel Lorelei]

Not really true. First off, Will saves are based off Wisdom, not Intelligence. Furthermore, having low Intelligence does not automatically mean mental stats are poor. Look at many animals. They have cruddy Int. and Cha., but their Wisdom is extremely good. Why so? It represents the instinct they use to survive. I would assume that this dragon has a decent Wisdom score for the same reason. Also, as a dragon (even though it isn't a true dragon), it should have Blindsight or something to that effect (the Psudodragon does, why not this one?). It can still pinpoint the party and rip everything to shreds (sans well-played Wizard, Cleric, or possibly even a Monk who just runs the heck out of there rather than fight). The Wizard, however, has a poor chance of succeeding on the SoD spells you get at fifth level.

Sure, but everything about it fills the Dumb Brute archetype so far. I doubt it has a Wisdom over 14 (which is plenty decent, and would give it a +9 Will save); there's no reason for it to have one--"real" dragons do, but they also have high INT. Also, not all dragons have Blindsense (and even if they do pinpoint you with it, there's that miss chance)--I think the original post would have included that tidbit if it were true.

Each of the wizard's spells has a 40 to 50% chance of success (50 if its WIS is 10, 40 if it's 14). With a 50% chance of success, there's a 75% chance that one of two Glitterdusts will work, and an 85.5% chance that one of three will (the wizard is moving and protected by Mirror Image, or he has flown out of range, and is therefore fairly safe). Those aren't bad odds.

[Irreverent Fool]

It may be a bit dim, but it is intelligent enough to speak Common, and unless you'd like the GM to rule that your INT 4 Fighter must repeatedly take auto fail actions, ruling this for a NPC is also unreasonable.

It only speaks 'halting draconic', but your point is valid. INT 4 doesn't mean 'Oh gee, my attacks pass right through this thing, I better keep attacking it'. But it can mean 'easily confused'. Gussy yourself up to look like the cleric who's supposed to be bossing this thing around, learn a few phrases of draconic, and try to be out of the way when big, dumb, and flightless finally figures it out.

[Kompera]

So now the Wizard is assumed to have the exact spells needed to defeat this encounter, as well as to know what it's master looks like and to have a high enough Disguise skill (and the time to apply said disguise) to convince it that it is it's master. I'll pass over the Language: Draconic since that's a freeby substitution for Wizards.

I'm not at all confused about the potency of Wizards, but it is amusing to me to see how any possible chance of failure is always so eagerly argued against.

Probability of spell success isn't stacked so much in your favor that no one will argue that you don't just add two 50% chances and arrive at a 100% success rate? Ok, we'll just keep casting over and over until we finally do achieve success.

You're using more spells per day than you have? So what, you've got an inexhaustible supply of scrolls, wands, potions, whatever.

Oh, the monster isn't so dumb it'll just "snap at you" endlessly as you fly overhead? Well, we'll just be in the perfect disguise so that the "easily confused" monster will be fooled.

It's like it's not enough that Wizards are so clearly overpowered at every level, they've got to be elevated to an unimpeachable infalability or the arguments will continue forever.

[Chronos]

So now the Wizard is assumed to have the exact spells needed to defeat this encounter, as well as to know what it's master looks like and to have a high enough Disguise skill (and the time to apply said disguise) to convince it that it is it's master.I think people are just so used to assuming a bunch of divinations from the wizard that they take it for granted, now. Sure, a high-level wizard who's fighting a dragon is going to be prepared for it. He's going to learn everything he can about his enemy, and plan a strategy ahead of time, and have just the right spells prepared. But I think folks are overlooking the fact that this dragon is CR 5. A level 5 wizard has what, Clairvoyance? That's not going to be enough to give him the information he needs to properly prepare.

[Rachel Lorelei]

So now the Wizard is assumed to have the exact spells needed to defeat this encounter, as well as to know what it's master looks like and to have a high enough Disguise skill (and the time to apply said disguise) to convince it that it is it's master. I'll pass over the Language: Draconic since that's a freeby substitution for Wizards.

I'm not at all confused about the potency of Wizards, but it is amusing to me to see how any possible chance of failure is always so eagerly argued against.
Excuse me? I didn't assume the wizard has the exact spells necessary for this specific example: re-read the spell list I describe. It's general-purpose! It's a great spell-list for adventuring with from day to day.


Probability of spell success isn't stacked so much in your favor that no one will argue that you don't just add two 50% chances and arrive at a 100% success rate? Ok, we'll just keep casting over and over until we finally do achieve success.
...two castings equal a 75% chance. Three equal an 87.5% chance. The wizard described has three castings, because at level 5, Glitterdust is so good carrying around three is a good idea. If your first Glitterdust fails against an enemy like this, you cast another, because how many options do you have?



You're using more spells per day than you have? So what, you've got an inexhaustible supply of scrolls, wands, potions, whatever.
"Inexhaustible"? I mentioned using ONE scroll, maybe two. A level 1 scroll costs 12.5 gp and 1 xp to make; a level 2 scroll, 75 gp and 6 xp. Is it really so unlikely that a wizard is going to make scrolls of Mirror Image for times of trouble?


It's like it's not enough that Wizards are so clearly overpowered at every level, they've got to be elevated to an unimpeachable infalability or the arguments will continue forever.
I'm tired of seeing the "your wizard wouldn't have those spells prepared" argument. I'm not elevating the wizard to infallibility: that's an actual spell selection I use in real games.

[Mr. Friendly]

Honestly your spell selection is a fairly typical one for a standard batmanish wizard. I think most optimizers would choose Shivering Touch over Summon Monster III. Summon Undead III is also better.

Utility wizards are just awesome anyway.

I'm sure the same people complaining that "it's an unrealistic spell selection" would also complain about any standard loadout for a combat sorcerer.

Dragons are paper tigers; at least against Clerics, Wizards, Druids, Sorcerers or any other full caster.

Check that: non-spellcasting dragons are paper tigers.

[Cuddly]

It only speaks 'halting draconic', but your point is valid. INT 4 doesn't mean 'Oh gee, my attacks pass right through this thing, I better keep attacking it'. But it can mean 'easily confused'. Gussy yourself up to look like the cleric who's supposed to be bossing this thing around, learn a few phrases of draconic, and try to be out of the way when big, dumb, and flightless finally figures it out.

Wisdom of 10 or more would definitely not mean "easily confused."

[Epic_Wizard]

Its made clear yet again that wizards are super-overpowered...

As long as they have exactly one encounter that they know everything about beforehand.

Quoted for truth :smallbiggrin:


Not really true. First off, Will saves are based off Wisdom, not Intelligence. Furthermore, having low Intelligence does not automatically mean mental stats are poor. Look at many animals. They have cruddy Int. and Cha., but their Wisdom is extremely good. Why so? It represents the instinct they use to survive. I would assume that this dragon has a decent Wisdom score for the same reason. Also, as a dragon (even though it isn't a true dragon), it should have Blindsight or something to that effect (the Psudodragon does, why not this one?). It can still pinpoint the party and rip everything to shreds (sans well-played Wizard, Cleric, or possibly even a Monk who just runs the heck out of there rather than fight). The Wizard, however, has a poor chance of succeeding on the SoD spells you get at fifth level.

Okay yes but low int does mean that if the DM is playing the monster correctly it is more lily to target the thing that

a.) Is hurting it the most

b.) Hurt it last

c.) Is closest

With an Int of 4 it probably doesn't know to target the Wizard and would probably only go after it if it hit it with a big spell that had an obvious line of effect. This means that the Wizard has a little bit more than 1 round to kill the thing.

Also how much HP does this thing have on average? if it's 10d6 HD then that is probably, with bonuses, around 40-50 HP. A fifth level party won't have that much trouble with that because if the dragon tries to kill any one of the party by pinning him ect. then the rest of the party is going to take the opportunity to full attack his happy rear.

[MaxMahem]

I would only point out that successfully casting gliterdust on the dragon does not mean that it is absolutely out of the fight. It only means he is blinded for (at this level) 5 rounds. Now I'm not familiar with this specific dragon, but for many dragons could still put up a hell of a fight if blinded. Most of them have blindsense which would be unaffected, and so could still target the PCs who now get a 50% miss chance. Which is nice, but you still don't want to fall pray to even a blind dragon's full attack. Other dragons could simply retreat using there superior speed until their vision clears and the return to attack again. And it is entirely possible that the dragon could simply fight defensively and simply wait out the 5 rounds, which might be possible given their high AC, DR, and HP.

So while no dragon wants to be glitterdust, I think it is a bit much to say that a dragon who falls prey to that is entirely out of the fight. Especially at such low levels.

[Idea Man]

Let's say the ibrandlin was successfully glitterdusted:

"The ibrandlin was successfully glitterdusted." :smalltongue:

Old Police Squad humor aside, it sounds like the wizard is banking on using his magic to shut down the dragon's melee prowess. It's not bad, but the dragon has blind-fight, so it can attack as soon as someone as they get close. It can jump and pin an opponent as soon as it knows where to jump.

Also, and I know I didn't post it's native environment before, so I beg your forgiveness in advance, it is primarily a subterranean guardian. It is likely to have it's home terrain memorized, have limited space to engage foes (so they have limited space to engage him, or have some limited access bolt-hole (preferably with a really heavy rock to block the entrance). Sure, if the party has range weapons and the opportunity to use hit-and-run tactics, they can whittle down the ibrandlin, but they could do that to anything with that kind of disadvantage.

I believe glitterdust is a close range spell, so it would have to be cast within 35 ft.. Even if the wizard was invisible, that's risky, especially if it doesn't work, plus that would be two 2nd lvl spells down already. Worth the risk, in my opinion. :smallsmile:

I've been busy, but I've got some free time now. I'll post an advanced template ibrandlin soon. Honest! :smallwink:

[Kompera]

I'm tired of seeing the "your wizard wouldn't have those spells prepared" argument. I'm not elevating the wizard to infallibility: that's an actual spell selection I use in real games.I'm not using that argument, Rachel. As the part of my post you quoted said, I'm just tired of seeing the pro-Wizard camp as a whole reply with the typical "Faced with X, huh? Then the Wizard does Y and it's foiled. End of debate, Wizards win always." You were only one of the people who were involved with that, this thread, so my frustration with the status quo was not directed specifically at you, just at the mindset in general. Your spell picks are reasonable, I simply pointed out that you were using more spells than a non-specialized Wizard has. Scrolls are fine, but if they are used in every encounter to create the perfect "I win" button then they would tend to run out at some point, wouldn't they?

PS: I'm glad to see your grasp of probability has improved. :smalltongue:

[Frosty]

Wizards should not use scrolls every combat. They should save them for the big battles. A fight against a dragon is definitely a big battle I'd think.

[Epic_Wizard]

One quick question that has occurred to me.

What is the group size for these dragons? As we all know 3 of these would be much more survivable at level 8 than one of these at level 5. That is just the way the leveling system works. If they tend to appear in groups then that changes things.