Should Shadow monks get a Sneak Attack Lite?

[Greywander]

I know Shadow monks are already considered one of the better monk subclasses, but this guide I was just reading over has a fair point:

While the flavor is a lot of fun, and some of the mechanics are flashy and exciting, the Monk lacks built-in capabilities to capitalize on stealth and surprise, so you may often feel like you are emerging from the shadows to gently tickle an opponent where a Rogue would be emerging to deal a massive pile of Sneak Attack damage.
https://rpgbot.net/dnd5/characters/classes/monk/subclasses/
Here's what I'm thinking: Once per turn, you can deal extra damage on one attack that you have advantage on, similar to Sneak Attack. At 6th level, same level that you get Shadow Step, you deal one additional Martial Arts die of damage. Remember, you're using your BA to teleport, so you're already missing out on an unarmed strike. You can also try to get advantage elsewhere so as not to lose your BA. At 11th level, same level as Cloak of Shadows, the extra damage is two Martial Arts dice.

This is comparable to dipping a few levels into rogue, except it won't delay your monk progression, and it works with unarmed strikes (albeit still only once per turn). And unlike Sneak Attack, having an ally next to your target wouldn't work, it would need to be advantage. Shadow Step and Cloak of Shadows both give you ways to create advantage, and late game Empty Body can be used.

Unfortunately, I feel like this is probably a buff for a subclass that doesn't need it, even if it does sell that particular fantasy better.

[Kane0]

Alternatively tie it in directly to those abilities, 'when you use your shadow step or ki-fueled strike, any attack you make with a monk weapon until the end of your turn adds an extra monk die to the damage roll'

[Jerrykhor]

I think all Monks should get a bit more damage in general, especially at level 11 where most classes get a big bump in damage output. What Shadow monks need is the ability to see through magical darkness. And add Shadow Blade too while we are at it.

[stoutstien]

My monk style class is in early table test play. The shadow monk has a complete rework to be more focused on the shadow theme. Throwing punches at anyone in dim light within a growing range combined with a semi autonomous shadow of the monk harassing foes and making a mobile spot they can *bamf* to is being well received.

Damage past a certain point is usually a band-aid IMO and doesn't improve the game. If anything it actively makes it harder to introduce interesting options because they will be competing with said damage.

*If I felt the need to improve the monks damage I would look at further increasing its situational damage rather than just adding dice. Like adding a reaction attack when they dodge and an attack misses or step to wind a mini charger feel.*

[J-H]

What if they got a special type of sneak attack where they could punch a surprised enemy and totally knock them out instead of dealing damage?
Sorry, I don't usually do sarcasm... but Stunning Strike is a core monk feature. Spend Ki, get a bonus action attack you can stun with. Shadow Step as a BA, get your two regular attacks. Stun until the end of your next turn is typically more impactful than +3d6 damage.

[Greywander]

Alternatively tie it in directly to those abilities, 'when you use your shadow step or ki-fueled strike, any attack you make with a monk weapon until the end of your turn adds an extra monk die to the damage roll'
That's actually a decent idea. It rewards you for using those abilities without creating a potential exploit if you have a way to get advantage all the time (e.g. with Empty Body).


My monk style class is in early table test play. The shadow monk has a complete rework to be more focused on the shadow theme. Throwing punches at anyone in dim light within a growing range combined with a semi autonomous shadow of the monk harassing foes and making a mobile spot they can *bamf* to is being well received.
I'm curious what you've come up with. Shadow monks are already pretty solid, so I imagine your rework is less of an improvement and more just different. There's actually quite a few classes and subclasses that I think fall short in capturing the theme or identity they're going for, so an alternative take that isn't necessarily strong or better but just plays into those themes better would be welcome additions that could coexist alongside the originals for the different mechanics they offer. The shadow theme is pretty broad so I could see many different angles you could take with that that could all be unique and interesting and fun. Heck, you can often find an X-themed subclass across multiple classes and each one typically works very different, not because the base class is different (though that's part of it) but because each subclass itself is playing into a different aspect of that theme. Almost every class has a death-themed subclass, for example, and each one is a unique take on that theme.


What if they got a special type of sneak attack where they could punch a surprised enemy and totally knock them out instead of dealing damage?
Sorry, I don't usually do sarcasm... but Stunning Strike is a core monk feature. Spend Ki, get a bonus action attack you can stun with. Shadow Step as a BA, get your two regular attacks. Stun until the end of your next turn is typically more impactful than +3d6 damage.
Disadvantage on the save vs. Stunning Strike could be a potent alternative. The problem with Stunning Strike is that the enemies you want to use it on the most tend to be very good at passing CON saves. As a general rule, boss monsters and other big brute types will have better CON than DEX, while zerg rush horde type monsters will tend to have better DEX than CON. That's why CON save AoEs aren't necessarily worse than DEX save AoEs. But Stunning Strike is a single target lockdown, so you want to use it on the biggest, toughest monster in the room. And those types of monsters typically have high CON.
Edit: To clarify, what I'm saying is that advantage on the attack isn't really a benefit for Stunning Strike. Yes, Stunning Strike requires a hit, but it also requires spending ki. Accuracy doesn't affect the ki efficiency of Stunning Strike. If you imposed disadvantage on the save instead of gaining advantage on the attack roll, then it might have a similar effect on your odds of successfully stunning an enemy, but it would also greatly reduce the ki required for a successful stun, while advantage on the attack alone would not.

[stoutstien]

I don't have anything against the printed shadow monk as a whole other than the general over use of slapping spells onto options as a patch in place of other features. I'm keeping it around just renamed as the dusk guards with a slight twist to avoid spells as features(Dawn is in the work an alternative subclass options)
As a theme it's fine just doesn't hit the shadow mark. If it wasn't for the fact darkness made adv/dis a wash for their own attacks (prior to blind fighting which is built into my monks) nothing they get leans on dim as much as just dark.

My shadow monk is all about actual shadows. dim light is the environment they shine. They can store light and darkness so they are able to create shadows practically anywhere even in the face of magically created instances of both.

[KorvinStarmast]

What if they got a special type of sneak attack where they could punch a surprised enemy and totally knock them out instead of dealing damage?
Sorry, I don't usually do sarcasm... but Stunning Strike is a core monk feature. Spend Ki, get a bonus action attack you can stun with. Shadow Step as a BA, get your two regular attacks. Stun until the end of your next turn is typically more impactful than +3d6 damage. QFT.

{a} I think all Monks should get a bit more damage in general, especially at level 11 where most classes get a big bump in damage output. {b} What Shadow monks need is the ability to see through magical darkness. {c} And add Shadow Blade too while we are at it. a. they go from d6 to d8 with monk weapons and unarmed strikes. Yeah, your dagger is now a d8 weapon. :smallbiggrin:
b. Agree. Maybe something like Gloom Stalker's feature?
c. Concur. spell costs {x} ki points, yadda yadda.

[Greywander]

A lot of people forget about ki scaling as well. There's a point where you can comfortably Flurry every round and not worry about running out of ki. That counts as a damage boost, but since it's gradual instead of a big chunk awarded at a specific level, it often gets overlooked.

I do think base monk could benefit from some tweaks, but moreso in the vein of streamlining or adding versatility. For example, I think Martial Arts and Unarmored Movement should work in armor you are proficient with. Monks don't get any armor proficiencies by default, so not much changes for straight classed monks, but it improves multiclass flexibility. Monks could use a little buffing, but they're already a fun class to play. Some of the subclasses are hit or miss, though.

[KorvinStarmast]

A lot of people forget about ki scaling as well. There's a point where you can comfortably Flurry every round and not worry about running out of ki. That counts as a damage boost, but since it's gradual instead of a big chunk awarded at a specific level, it often gets overlooked. Yep, Fob at 11 gets the monk four attacks so we have potentially 4d8 + 16 or 4d8 +20 of magical attack damage. At the cost of one ki point. Reduce by 'to hit chance' as necessary, but if we take "general to hit assumptions" as roughly 2 out of 3 attacks hit, then it's 2/3 * (4d8 + 16 or 4d8 + 20) for one ki point.
For zero ki points, you can do 2/3 * (3d8+ 12 or 3d8 + 15) per round all day long. And it's magical attacks.
And you can do it naked. :smalleek:

[Waazraath]

I know Shadow monks are already considered one of the better monk subclasses, but this guide I was just reading over has a fair point:

Here's what I'm thinking: Once per turn, you can deal extra damage on one attack that you have advantage on, similar to Sneak Attack. At 6th level, same level that you get Shadow Step, you deal one additional Martial Arts die of damage. Remember, you're using your BA to teleport, so you're already missing out on an unarmed strike. You can also try to get advantage elsewhere so as not to lose your BA. At 11th level, same level as Cloak of Shadows, the extra damage is two Martial Arts dice.

This is comparable to dipping a few levels into rogue, except it won't delay your monk progression, and it works with unarmed strikes (albeit still only once per turn). And unlike Sneak Attack, having an ally next to your target wouldn't work, it would need to be advantage. Shadow Step and Cloak of Shadows both give you ways to create advantage, and late game Empty Body can be used.

Unfortunately, I feel like this is probably a buff for a subclass that doesn't need it, even if it does sell that particular fantasy better.

YES, big fat hits with loads of damage for the shadowmonk! Go Zeratul! I do this for Aiur!=D

[Slipjig]

Eh... I always thought the Shadow Monk fantasy was basically being a Ninja. I think the easiest way to do that is multi-classing into Rogue. Unfortunately there's some anti-synergy there.

I'd buff them with a house rule that any attack where you add your Dex instead of Str to the attack role counts as a Finesse weapon, making all Monk weapons, including Unarmed Strike, Sneak Attack compatible.

And possibly an ability where a grappled opponent is Silenced, playing up the whole, "[Guard 3] was right behind us, and now he's vanished!" fantasy.

[Yakk]

Something like this?

Shadow Arts (improved)
In addition, once on your turn when you hit a creature with a monk weapon or unarmed strike, you can spend a Ki to deal an extra necrotic damage equal to a Monk damage die.

At level 5, you can spend up to 2 Ki to deal up to 2 dice. At level 11 and 17, you can spend 3 or 4 Ki for up to 3 or 4 dice.

Shadow Step (improved)
You can use your Shadow Arts bonus damage on the attack with advantage without expending any Ki.

...

The efficiency isn't super high without Shadow Step, but it is burst damage. So it rewards being sneaky.

With Shadow Step, you get a discount on the price at the cost of your bonus action.

[Theodoxus]

My monk rework was to pair with rogue, but instead of sneak attack dice, they get a d6 flurry of blows instead. So, a rogue would get a massive hit of 10d6 at top level (on a hit), where a monk would get 12 attacks a round, but they'd be d6+Dex mod. (Having a massive move seems silly with a max of 4 attacks a round.) If all 12 attacks hit, that Dex mod bonus would probably outstrip the rogue's attack... but outside of smacking down annoyance critters, the monk probably won't hit every attack.

I'm not sure if Stunning Strike should be limited with it. On the one hand, if you wanna blow 11 Ki on getting FoB and 10 SSs in a round, that's expensive... on the other, even with a heavy cost, that kind of nova is pretty breaking... Might limit Ki expenditure to PB... that's probably not a bad idea in general with standard 5E... as a DM, I cringe when monks SS on every hit, moving on when it sticks.

[Witty Username]

A lot of people forget about ki scaling as well. There's a point where you can comfortably Flurry every round and not worry about running out of ki. That counts as a damage boost, but since it's gradual instead of a big chunk awarded at a specific level, it often gets overlooked.

I don't think it gets overlooked so much as it is easy to muck up.

Like say, 11th level, 11 ki, that is alot of turns for FoB, but that isn't the only thing your spending ki on:
In the context of shadow monk,
2 ki for your Pass without Trace as you scout around
2 ki to silence/darkness for some situational thing
6 ki to burn through a monster's legendary resistance with stunning strike (assuming a 50/50 and needing 3 successes to go through it all)
And we only have 1 ki left for Flurry

Even at high levels a lot of ki can go fast if your not watching it. Generally speaking, I have found people overvalue, and therefore overuse, stunning strike. As well, most monk subclasses have a high ki investment ability that, well useful, cuts into the longevity, which is important to weigh the short term value of.

If you always rest after every encounter, this is fine, I have generally found 2-3 without a short rest hurts alot.

I want to stress, this is not whiteroom thinking, this is observations from a couple high level games, one where I was the monk, one where I was with a monk. Shadow wasn't used, (Wo4E and Sun Soul), but alot of this is base class problems and every monk spends ki sometimes for its subclass.

[JNAProductions]

My monk rework was to pair with rogue, but instead of sneak attack dice, they get a d6 flurry of blows instead. So, a rogue would get a massive hit of 10d6 at top level (on a hit), where a monk would get 12 attacks a round, but they'd be d6+Dex mod. (Having a massive move seems silly with a max of 4 attacks a round.) If all 12 attacks hit, that Dex mod bonus would probably outstrip the rogue's attack... but outside of smacking down annoyance critters, the monk probably won't hit every attack.

I'm not sure if Stunning Strike should be limited with it. On the one hand, if you wanna blow 11 Ki on getting FoB and 10 SSs in a round, that's expensive... on the other, even with a heavy cost, that kind of nova is pretty breaking... Might limit Ki expenditure to PB... that's probably not a bad idea in general with standard 5E... as a DM, I cringe when monks SS on every hit, moving on when it sticks.

Er...

Even accounting for TWF, the best case scenario is a 50% hit rate.

Rogue has two attacks, one for 1d6+Dex, one for 1d6 (assuming Shortswords and no TWF Style) and if either hit they deal 10d6 extra damage.
.5*(3.5+5)+.5*3.5+(1-.5*.5)*(10*3.5)=32.25 damage in a round, on average.

A Monk with 12 attacks, hitting 50% of the time for 1d6+5 each.
12*(.5*(3.5+5))=51 damage in a round, on average.

51/32.25=1.58, or more than 50% better.

At the more normal 65% hit rate, the numbers change to 38.51 on Rogue, 66.3 on Monk. Literally more than 70% more damage.

The ONLY advantage I can see from the Rogue is provoking harder Concentration saves (11d6 is 38.5, so depending on whether you hit with the off hand or main hand you're looking at DC 19-22 save). But even then, six hits provokes six saves. Unless they have +9 or better to Constitution saves, they're looking at a 25% failure rate minimum. Assuming they're rocking a +8 to the saves, so only fail on a 1.

[XmonkTad]

I am having flashbacks to "Sudden Strike" from the 3.5 ninja class. It might work better this edition simply because there aren't so many mechanics built on top of sneak attack (like having it be a prerequisite for feats).