A few DMing questions

[Tyrant]

I have found myself DMing a 5E game and I have a few questions. For background, I won't claim to be anything approaching a rules expert. One of my players, the one who was supposed to be the DM when we started pulling this game together, has played a lot more 5E than I have so I defer to him on some rules questions (though I do confirm them later). I have 4 players. The other 3 are much less experienced. Of those 3, 1 has watched a lot of Critical Role (for good or ill) and the other 2 know about D&D through memes and playing RPG video games. Right now they are level 3 (using milestone leveling), going to be level 4 real soon. The campaign is homebrew (though I borrowed some elements from Phandelver) set in the Forgotten Realms. I haven't narrowed down the year but it is about a century after the Spellplague. It's a mixed bag of what did and didn't happen over the last century in terms of canon events (none of them are huge Realms fans so there's no cries of "but that did/didn't happen!"). They are a Goliath Fighter, a Human Ranger, a Firbolg Druid, and a Kenku Warlock. So, onto the questions.

1) At what level should I be cool with them getting magic items and what level of magic items? Along with that, should they be able to buy things like +1 weapons and if so, at what cost?

2) They seem to make insight checks in every conversation they have and they almost always roll pretty high. So far, none of the NPCs have been lying to them (that obviously won't last forever). To counter this is my main option to roll a deception check? And then hope that they can ignore the knowledge that I rolled that?

[Boci]

I have found myself DMing a 5E game and I have a few questions. For background, I won't claim to be anything approaching a rules expert. One of my players, the one who was supposed to be the DM when we started pulling this game together, has played a lot more 5E than I have so I defer to him on some rules questions (though I do confirm them later). I have 4 players. The other 3 are much less experienced. Of those 3, 1 has watched a lot of Critical Role (for good or ill) and the other 2 know about D&D through memes and playing RPG video games. Right now they are level 3 (using milestone leveling), going to be level 4 real soon. The campaign is homebrew (though I borrowed some elements from Phandelver) set in the Forgotten Realms. I haven't narrowed down the year but it is about a century after the Spellplague. It's a mixed bag of what did and didn't happen over the last century in terms of canon events (none of them are huge Realms fans so there's no cries of "but that did/didn't happen!"). They are a Goliath Fighter, a Human Ranger, a Firbolg Druid, and a Kenku Warlock. So, onto the questions.

1) At what level should I be cool with them getting magic items and what level of magic items? Along with that, should they be able to buy things like +1 weapons and if so, at what cost?

2) They seem to make insight checks in every conversation they have and they almost always roll pretty high. So far, none of the NPCs have been lying to them (that obviously won't last forever). To counter this is my main option to roll a deception check? And then hope that they can ignore the knowledge that I rolled that?

For the first options, its up to you, and to a lesser extend the player, want the game to feel like. I tend to be stingier with magical items, in my current game I didn't give them a magical weapon until level 9, which was a plotbased artefact. I roll magical items randomly, they were level 10 when they first got a chance to buy a non-plot magical item. Generally no earlier than 3, with 4-6 probably being average.

For the second, if you don't trust your players to not react to a roll, and it can be a bit tricky to roleplay ignorance, you can roll whenever they roll insight and just ignore the result if the NPC isn't lying.

[Unoriginal]

1) At what level should I be cool with them getting magic items and what level of magic items?

Answer to both is "any level". Some adventures have magic items before lvl 3, others wait a lot longer. But it's rare for a group to have no magic items at lvl 5.



Along with that, should they be able to buy things like +1 weapons and if so, at what cost?

The Xanathar's has rules for attempting to purchase magic items (in the Downtime rules), and how much money it costs to do so. I suggest taking a look at them.




2) They seem to make insight checks in every conversation they have and they almost always roll pretty high. So far, none of the NPCs have been lying to them (that obviously won't last forever). To counter this is my main option to roll a deception check? And then hope that they can ignore the knowledge that I rolled that?

1. As the DM, you are the one who decides if anything is rolled. So it's not the player stating: "I do a WIS (Insight) check on this guy", it's the player asking: "what kind of read do I have on this guy?" or similar.

2. WIS checks with Insight proficiency are not quite/not only to see if a character is lying, it's to get a measure of what they're not stating. If you deem they can get a check, and they get a great result, you can still say stuff like "you feel that the mayor is prideful and won't tolerate looking weak in front of strangers, let alone peers" or "it seems this druid is nursing a hangover" or "the captain's kindness appears genuine, but you can tell he loves being the center of attention".

3. You don't have to roll the CHA check with Deception proficiency right when the NPC does the check. You could roll it as the conversation starts, or before it. You can also always roll a die to oppose the WIS (Insight) check, because even if the NPC isn't lying they're presenting themselves a certain way to the world.

[JackPhoenix]

1) Whenever you want. Magic items are completely optionals, but martials will want magic weapon at some point.
2) Stop having them roll. Use passive Insight instead and roll the NPCs Deception against that, when needed. Maybe make some pointless roll from time to time if the players look like they are metagaming.

[Leon]

1) At what level should I be cool with them getting magic items and what level of magic items? Along with that, should they be able to buy things like +1 weapons and if so, at what cost?



Defiantly by level five they should have found something reasonable* or been able to buy basic magic items. If they are interested in it let them craft stuff as well ~ Cost what you think is reasonable inline with how well you have been letting the money flow to suit your game. Current game we have all been getting a bit annoyed with the DM for being really stingy on the loot and and cash and they do plan to improve but its been a real drag to not be able to afford much at all by level 5. Previous game we didn't get much chance to buy anything and the loot was mixed but we got to make a really cool custom spear that just took a lot of time and spellcasting.


*Reasonable being useful and not one of the "minor" magic items that are not actually useful, by all means have them but make sure to not have them as main loot ~ really disappointing to find the secret door, open the locked chest and find that what's in it is a helm that makes your eyes glow red, nothing more. If your going to use those kind of items at least give them a small effect like a bonus to Intimidate or something.

[Zhorn]

1) At what level should I be cool with them getting magic items and what level of magic items?
Like others have said; this part is very much an "up to you as DM" type of question, most because their effect on player power and encounter balance is up to you to manage.
Throwing creatures with immunities to non-magical damage before magic weapons can make martials feel unfairly targeted if done too regularly, or abilities of the party are not accounted for (can still work, but care needs to be taken)

As for what levels, this is the rough guidelines I was given when first starting to DM: "4 levels per tier of rarity"

Levels 1-4 : Common
Levels 5-8 : Uncommon
Levels 9-12 : Rare
Levels 13-16 : Very Rare
Levels 17-20 : Legendary
This is rough estimate of by what levels of play a magic item of said rarity is unlikely to cause headaches for you as a DM on how drastically it effects player power.
The more comfortable you as DM get with balancing encounters for your party's level of power, the more lax you can be with how powerful an item you can hand out at what level. That level of experience will come with time, and is different for each group you play with player ability and class power are not always 1-to-1.


Along with that, should they be able to buy things like +1 weapons and if so, at what cost?
For buying magic items; I'd say you want to narratively have some form of limiting factor in play. Finite supplies and faction locking is a good justification why magic items are not raining from the sky while still being well known.
Using the above list; a safe way to go is consumable of that level range's rarity are not difficult to find (though not in infinite supply), and regular magic items of that rarity can be found in very restricted quantities (1... maybe 2 if very lucky) for sale.
That restrictive quantity aside, the knowledge of such items by level appropriate quest givers is fairly higher.

"Sir Reginald had a +1 sword. Went into the hills to slay a band of ogres... never came back... for the right price I could sell a map of where he was headed"
"Phizbang is a local washed up mage in debt with the local crime syndicate. Help him fake his death and escape, and his +1 Focus would make for a good reward"
If players are after a specific thing; boiling it down into a short quest can a satisfying means of distribution. It can still have a equivalent "purchasing cost" built into the quest through required supplies and expenses, but allows you to make things readily available without opening the floodgates.
Cost-wise when it comes to +1 weapons; 1000gp tends to be safe (and in line with a few AL docs I used to refence when first starting to DM), but I scale up or down from there depending on the weapon and how useful it is. A higher damage dice or more useful attributes will increase the cost, while a lower damage dice and less desirable attributes decrease it.
A +1 greatclub might be 500gp, while a +1 longsword could be 1300gp.

Sometimes just having expensive art objects used as a base for enchanting new magic items allows for enough control as to not become an overwhelming flood of magic items.
Example: when my players are out in a dungeon and come across a treasure pile, instead of gold, I'll have it be an art object weapon/armor piece or some other item that the players could use as a foundation to making a magic item. Regularly I'll let the players have a say in what they are finding
"The treasure chest has a pile of coins and a ceremonial weapon with a ruby in the pommel... it looks to be worth about 2000 gp. What type of weapon is it?"


2) They seem to make insight checks in every conversation they have and they almost always roll pretty high. So far, none of the NPCs have been lying to them (that obviously won't last forever). To counter this is my main option to roll a deception check? And then hope that they can ignore the knowledge that I rolled that?
This is where I think critical role has done a little bit of damage in making insight seem like mind reading levels of truth detection.
Rather than always defaulting to contested checks or just telling if it is a lie or truth, use insight to show details about the character's personality traits that the players are picking up from the roll.
"While the one guard talking to you is saying [x], you notice a bit of bravado in their tone that seems to have become more prevalent as other guards started to pay attention" could be a way of drawing attention to the NPC displaying a false confidence, either reinforced by the idea of there being the numbers to back them up in a fight breaks out, OR that they are responding to the attention of their peers, for good or ill.
I'd suggest diving into the DMG on Social Interactions (p244-245) and look at Determining Characteristics. Insight is used there for identifying bonds/ideals/flaws as to steer conversations.

[Anymage]

1) At what level should I be cool with them getting magic items and what level of magic items? Along with that, should they be able to buy things like +1 weapons and if so, at what cost?

Five or six for "useful" items like magic weapons or armor. You can include minor magic items before then if you want to have a high magic feel, but they shouldn't be more effective than fluff pieces.

If you want to have magic items for sale, there are a few pitfalls you should keep in mind. The biggest is targeting build-defining magic items, either ones that are too easy to game (like dumping Str and then using belts of giant strength to cover for that), or just letting people get their ideal items and then only being able to offer +1 upgrades. You also want to be conscious what might happen if the whole party pools gold to buy one really strong item. 5e is not built around a magic item economy with gold targets for various levels, and this shows.


2) They seem to make insight checks in every conversation they have and they almost always roll pretty high. So far, none of the NPCs have been lying to them (that obviously won't last forever). To counter this is my main option to roll a deception check? And then hope that they can ignore the knowledge that I rolled that?

Two things.

First, passive checks/scores (https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/using-ability-scores#PassiveChecks) help a lot to avoid rolling extraneous dice. If the player invested in being good at reading people it's fair that they should have a good hunch what people are like. If it's just that everybody in the party wants to roll because they're counting on at least one person rolling well, that's a lot of gamey extra dice rolling. (Also a good reason to do things like asking what they're trying to do specifically, since "I get a roll to lie-detect everything coming out of their mouth" feels like it would bog down the game something fierce in practice.

Second, look into group checks. (Scroll down the page a bit from my last link.) Especially for things like Insight/Perception/knowledge checks (where it's assumed that if one person knows they can just inform everybody else) and things like stealth checks (where one person blowing it can screw it up for the entire team) work better that way if everybody wants to pile on. 5e intentionally wants to have the modifiers be small enough that the dice stays relevant (so you don't wind up with situations where people fall off the dice in either direction), which makes a lot of people fishing for high rolls effective. Have them pool their efforts and make them aware that failed rolls can result in wrong information instead of just maintaining the status quo of not knowing, that should hopefully mitigate check spamming.

[Incorrect]

For Insight checks, I suggest to set a fixed DC for each NPC.
That way you are not rolling any dice that can reveal your hand as metaknowledge, and you dont have the risk of rolling really poorly against a lucky roll from the players.

It is also possible to tell your players that they can not roll insight at this moment. Maybe they need to have a longer conversation with the NPC to get a feeling of their intensions.
But, players rolling insight is not an uncommon thing, it happens all the time in my games as well.

[Mastikator]

Don't be afraid to give them consumable magic items and highly specific charged items like spell wands.

If you're worried about +1 breaking bounded accuracy consider giving them weapons with other effects, like viscous.

You can use xanathar's rules for buying/crafting/selling magic items. For actual prices I suggest you google "dnd 5e sane magic item prices". Also consider what the DMG says about buying and selling magic items, they're so rare and expensive that they're more like fine art, put yourself through the motions of actually buying the Mona Lisa from the Louvre, or any rare art from an auction. Commoners are allowed to pay to look at a cloak of elvenkind, actually buying it is a huge upset for the community. Magic item auctions are held at specific dates, only in the biggest richest cities, it costs money just to be allowed to enter and bid, and you must have a good reputation to be allowed to do it. A single +1 longsword has the same price tag as a small army, so a small army should be guarding it. Stealing a +1 longsword is the heist of the century (and a great plothook/adventure idea!)

[Phhase]

Just always roll when they talk to/use insight on an NPC, even if they aren't lying, mutter "Hmm, okay...." and if asked, say it's "Nothing, don't worry about it!" Eventually the act of rolling against insight will become decoupled with the idea that they are obviously being lied to, or something. Either that or they'll become hilariously paranoid. Either one's a win.

[KorvinStarmast]

Don't be afraid to give them consumable magic items and highly specific charged items like spell wands. That's good advice.

If you're worried about +1 breaking bounded accuracy consider giving them weapons with other effects, like viscous. Moon touched sword is a decent one. Weapon of warning.

You can use xanathar's rules for buying/crafting/selling magic items. For actual prices I suggest you google "dnd 5e sane magic item prices".
I suggest using DMG guidlines. I have used Xan's, and I have come to the conclusion that the costs need to be increased for anything above common.

Also consider what the DMG says about buying and selling magic items, they're so rare and expensive that they're more like fine art, put yourself through the motions of actually buying the Mona Lisa from the Louvre, or any rare art from an auction. Commoners are allowed to pay to look at a cloak of elvenkind, actually buying it is a huge upset for the community. Magic item auctions are held at specific dates, only in the biggest richest cities, it costs money just to be allowed to enter and bid, and you must have a good reputation to be allowed to do it.
A single +1 longsword has the same price tag as a small army, so a small army should be guarding it. Stealing a +1 longsword is the heist of the century (and a great plothook/adventure idea!) Good advice.

[Unoriginal]

For actual prices I suggest you google "dnd 5e sane magic item prices".

I strongly advise against using that list. The prices given are anytjing but sane.

It is true that magic items are more like artworks, collector items or sport cars, but one shouldn't overstate their value either. Not all Renaissance paintings are the Mona Lisa. Shows like Pawn Stars demonstrate easily why even legit, prime condition items with a significant number of people interested in owning them aren't always that valuable.

To give put things in perspective, one Uncommon magic item is likely worth several cows, but you don't have to be *that* rich to have several cows as disposable income.

[stoutstien]

I have found myself DMing a 5E game and I have a few questions. For background, I won't claim to be anything approaching a rules expert. One of my players, the one who was supposed to be the DM when we started pulling this game together, has played a lot more 5E than I have so I defer to him on some rules questions (though I do confirm them later). I have 4 players. The other 3 are much less experienced. Of those 3, 1 has watched a lot of Critical Role (for good or ill) and the other 2 know about D&D through memes and playing RPG video games. Right now they are level 3 (using milestone leveling), going to be level 4 real soon. The campaign is homebrew (though I borrowed some elements from Phandelver) set in the Forgotten Realms. I haven't narrowed down the year but it is about a century after the Spellplague. It's a mixed bag of what did and didn't happen over the last century in terms of canon events (none of them are huge Realms fans so there's no cries of "but that did/didn't happen!"). They are a Goliath Fighter, a Human Ranger, a Firbolg Druid, and a Kenku Warlock. So, onto the questions.

1) At what level should I be cool with them getting magic items and what level of magic items? Along with that, should they be able to buy things like +1 weapons and if so, at what cost?

2) They seem to make insight checks in every conversation they have and they almost always roll pretty high. So far, none of the NPCs have been lying to them (that obviously won't last forever). To counter this is my main option to roll a deception check? And then hope that they can ignore the knowledge that I rolled that?

For #1 I'd wait to give out anything out anything that not a consumables until you know the answer yourself. Id avoid static + 1/2/3 all together really. Magic items are all extra so sprinkle them in when it makes narrative sense.

As for #2 you can't blame them for being cautious lol. Remember that insight isn't magic so even if have a npc hiding something it doesn't necessarily mean it relavant. If I'm hiding the fact shaving coins I might be nervous that a party of adventures are asking me questions about the local kobold issue as a decoy. Remember npc have personalities and goals themselves.

[MrStabby]

As others have said, any time you want for magic items... but I think that there is a lot of risk to doing it too early and I usually go for about level 9 (and a very restriced subset at that). It kind of depends what the items are about.

As a rule, I don't like items that makes unique class abilities no longer unique and cool. So for example, monks and warlocks and moon druids and a few other things get to make magical BPS attacks as character abilities and avoid things like damage resistance. I would never give out magic weapons that stopped these cool, thematic abilities from shining. Likewise, there are some great class abilities that boost speed and mobility - I wouldn't add items that spread these abilities around. Basically, any item that simulates, replaces or surpasses any class ability shouldn't be available until those that have used those class abilities have had their full value from them.

Selling items is also a bit complicated. Item availability doesn't really impact each class the same way. A fighter throwing down three attacks with a greatsword and GWM is going to get a lot more out of a +1 weapon than a rogue of the same level getting a +1 crossbow when they are already attacking with advantage a lot of the time.

When you look at the list of magic items that don't screw up balance or step on the toes of another class its actually a relatively modest list. As classes powers grow and they get more diverse abilities the tollerance level for magic items grows.


And for the insight checks - sounds cool. Let them use insight and let them sometimes find stuff. Sometimes the information might be just adding flavour to the world (seeming dishonest because they don't want to discuss an affair or something, sometimes more of a threat to the party). For deception, you can have some pre-rolled numbers or you can use passie numbers (I woul say depending on whether they are actively trying to decieve).

[J-H]

1) At what level should I be cool with them getting magic items and what level of magic items? Along with that, should they be able to buy things like +1 weapons and if so, at what cost?
It depends on your game. Some of the WOTC published aventures (ROTFM) hand out like 2 magic weapons by level 7 from what I've heard - but they were also apparently designed with Adventurer's League in mind, where people automatically get treasure points to spend on items per session played. It seems like there was an error as a result.

Magic items are not required but they do help keep all characters even with each other.
If you hand out few magic items, some classes will fall behind others. Wizards need spell scrolls. Clerics and druids are perfectly viable to mid-levels with zero magical items, although they certainly like armor and other protective gear. Fighters and Rogues benefit substantially from magical items, as these give them mobility options (flight, spider climb, etc.) that they can't get anywhere else, as well as elemental damage bonuses. An 11th level fighter with nothing but a +1 sword is doing 3d10+18 slashing damage per round in melee, while a warlock with a Rod of the Pact Keeper (+1 to hit) is doing 3d10+15 force damage (better) plus 30' of pushing or pulling, at a range of 120', and has spells.

Magic items also serve as another means of progression/growth, and expand the party's option. Bags of Tricks, Sewer Pipes, and all sorts of other items that are not directly useful in combat can be used to make exploration encounters more interesting.
Donjon (https://donjon.bin.sh/5e/magic_items/) has a list of all the magic items, sortable by rarity, attunement, etc. It only has descriptions for the SRD items so I believe it's safe to link under forum rules.

2) They seem to make insight checks in every conversation they have and they almost always roll pretty high. So far, none of the NPCs have been lying to them (that obviously won't last forever). To counter this is my main option to roll a deception check? And then hope that they can ignore the knowledge that I rolled that?

Relevant comic (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html)

I believe Insight and Investigation checks should be rolled by the DM behind the screen. This makes it a lot easier for the players to not metagame.

[Segev]

My recommendation on magic items, if you don't have a feel for what you WANT to give out, would be to roll on the treasure tables in the DMG. They have treasure tables broken down by CR of individual encounters and "treasure hoards," the latter being something that anything with a lair would have, or that a dungeon might have one or more of (one per floor, perhaps). Also, if you like customization, use the tables in the DMG on page 142 and page 143, either directly or as inspiration. I've ptu together some fun things, in my opinion, using those tables and random rolling on the magic item tables as inspiration.

Some examples I rolled up as possible starting items for a Forge of Fury run:

common
A black-and-silver cane topped with a spider gripping a crystal sphere, this cane turns into a rapier whenever its bearer is targeted by a spell, and reverts one minute after the spell ends.
A single dab of perfume stored in a delicate bottle of elven make. Once worn exclusively by elven royalty, a single application of this perfume gives the bearer a delicate aroma that changes based on the circumstances and puts those who smell it in mind of songs that keep the wearer's words echoing like an earworm, granting the wearer advantage on Charisma checks against humanoids for the hour until it wears off. There is one application in the bottle, just enough to wet the stopper and apply it delicately to the wrist or neck.
A swagger stick created by a paranoid Dao, this item always appears to be made of a fine marble or other stone, though the jeweled adornments alter to complement whatever the bearer is wearing. While carried, it gives +2 to its bearer's initiative if the bearer is not incapacitated, and can be used as a Wand of Pyrotechnics, perfect for pointing out or otherwise foiling assassins' efforts.
A helm constructed for a tyrannical conqueror who reveled in his fearsome reputation, this item bears a crown's points and makes the wearer's eyes glow red. As an action, the wearer can cause his voice to be amplified enough to be heard clearly up to 300 feet away.
A shield made of celestial steel that was recovered from a cambion mercenary's possession after he'd used it in multiple betrayals in the Blood War. Its face is that of a handsome aasimar when a positive expression is on it, and that of an equally-handsome tiefling when a negative expression is on it. The wearer can read and understand Celestial when the aasimar face is on it, and Fiendish when the tiefling face is on it. He also may speak the relevant language, though when he does, the shield's face mimics his speech.

uncommon
A snow globe set into a sandstone base and filled with a swirling dust that forms into whatever image the bearer desires. The moment he stops concentrating (as on a spell), though, it assumes random, unsettling forms and whispers in an ominously low voice. Those who speak Terran recognize the mutterings as very melodramatic portents of doom, promising whatever it touches will disappear. When the globe is broken, the dust can be scattered as Dust of Disappearance.
A black iron Immovable Rod set with a ruby. Painfully hot to the touch, it never causes actual burns. Its wielder feels as if he is in a 90-degree Fahrenheit room, as long as the temperature is between -20 and 120 degrees. It feels one degree warmer or cooler per degree outside this boundary. When the ruby is pushed, it sets itself in place, and the one who pushed it counts as holding it for the afore-mentioned effects even if he walks away, up to a mile distant, until it is pushed again to deactivate it.
An oversized wooden stake that can serve as a club or a wooden dagger. Extracted from a tree that grew from a stake that slew the vampire Gulthias, this +1 druidic focus demands at least one drop of humanoid blood after each sunset, or it will not function until it is fed. Once after each sunset (after it has been fed), its attuned owner can forego an attack roll when making an attack, instead acting as if he had rolled a 10 on the die. In addition, once per sunset (after being fed), it will permit the attuned druid to wild shape when the druid's uses are exhausted.
A candle that never melts, burning until extinguished. As long as it is lit, it functions as a +1 holy symbol (adding to spell attack rolls and save DCs for an attuned cleric). It bears an ornate symbol of a god of fire and light, and fills its bearer with confidence born of faith. It functions as a Wand of Pyrotechnics in addition to its properties as a holy symbol.

rare
A Potion of Heroism brewed by dwarves and intended to be drunk as part of a sacrement to the god of mines and wealth, this potion imparts knowledge of the depth below the surface and a hunger for material wealth, in addition to its normal effects.

[JLandan]

One thing I do while DMing is constantly roll dice, sometimes a bunch of them. Just fiddling around, not actually for anything. It will either make the players paranoid (always fun) or they'll stop paying attention (better still).

Sometimes for rolls that matter, I'll pre-roll several d20s and line them up just behind my screen and use them in order instead of rolling. This is much subtler, not fudging, and very sneaky.

[Demonslayer666]

...
1) At what level should I be cool with them getting magic items and what level of magic items? Along with that, should they be able to buy things like +1 weapons and if so, at what cost?
Here is the scale I use: level 1-2 consumable items like potions and scrolls. Levels 3-5 uncommon items (not flying), around 6-9 for rare items. Above that anything goes. I will have at least one magic weapon in the party around level 5 in the off chance that they face a critter immune to non-magic damage. It's not necessary, but it helps players not feel powerless against such foes.

Buying magic items can be a slippery slope. Letting them buy as many uncommon items as they want will get out of hand quickly. I'd recommend rolling up some vendor items and keep the supply limited. The Donjon web site has a great magic shop generator.

I use the DMG for a rough estimate on cost. Consumable items will be on the low end or even drop to the next lower category, very useful items with be on the top end of the price range. I also bump flying items up in rarity - boots of flying .

common items - almost always available (village+)
uncommon items - usually available (small town+)
rare item - large town, small city
very rare - large city
legen-wait for it-dary - not usually for sale, you'd have to search in several large cities



2) They seem to make insight checks in every conversation they have and they almost always roll pretty high. So far, none of the NPCs have been lying to them (that obviously won't last forever). To counter this is my main option to roll a deception check? And then hope that they can ignore the knowledge that I rolled that?
As other have said, have your players wait until you ask for a roll by using passive Insight, or roll for them so they don't know if the attempt was good or bad. I like to do this for many things so it doesn't give away information they would not know.

[Tyrant]

Thanks for the insight/help/answers. I'll have to talk to the players on the insight question and explain that I have probably been doing things wrong and it will need to change a bit going forward.

A follow up on the magic item situation. I have given them a number of possible situations they can try to tackle. A couple are above their current ability to handle (in part because it will require magic weapons, which they don't have). A few NPCs have tried to impress upon them that they would be foolish to pursue these issues at this point. I haven't given any indication that they are pressing problems that have to be solved now. However, some of them want to try to deal with it now. The NPCs have made clear what it will take to deal with the problem. I have had a few NPCs offer to provide a temporary solution, but it will take time. So their solution has been to beg for magic items. As in, to borrow them. I've been going from the DM guide on the whole "magic items are fairly rare" thing and thought I made this clear, so I have no idea why they thought that would work (they're 3rd level PCs in the middle of nowhere, no one is going to loan them something worth a small fortune, much less several such somethings, especially after one of them had engaged in a clandestine meeting offering their "services" to the leaders of the two groups who have a few magic weapons). Not so sure I have a question in there. Maybe just looking for comments. It's just one of a long line of decisions that I have no clue how they arrived at that idea being not only a good idea but being "the one".

I'm starting to wonder if I am not explaining things properly or if I am not explaining enough. As a further example, they tried to follow up an attack that occurred a month ago by looking for tracks. From a month ago. Not to say there couldn't still be tracks given the right conditions, but it's a long shot at best (along with several other sets of tracks being present being a high probability) and they seemed to think it was a sure fire strategy.

[Pex]

1) At what level should I be cool with them getting magic items and what level of magic items? Along with that, should they be able to buy things like +1 weapons and if so, at what cost?

My personal rule of thumb is for PCs to get their first Uncommon item when becoming 5th level. 5th level is the jump where PCs embody their class and character more than just the basics of 3rd level subclass. For linear campaigns, it's when the real story begins. Getting the magic item is like a Diploma. You've now officially graduated into being an Adventurer.

As for buying magic items, that's a touch subject. It's runs the gamut of DMs who have magic items shops to DMs who would never let PCs buy magic items. The only true answer is what you feel comfortable with doing. However, whether you allow for buying items or only give them out as treasure it is universally true to not give out too many powerful too soon. Magic items should be a treat, not the gut of PC power.

As for +1 weapons, personal opinion they're suitable from level 8. This is when using Point Buy a PC can have a 20 in his prime or an 18 and a feat. Next level is a Proficiency Bonus increase. PCs start to get uberpowerful despite Bounded Accuracy a +1 matters but it's still all about the character not the magic item. There is nothing wrong with a plain +1 weapon. Someone people call it "boring", but a passive bonus is effective and aesthetically pleasing to the eye on the character sheet. However, consider adding something, an ability besides the +1. Could be as simple as +1d6 fire damage or once per short rest invoke maximum damage which is very nice on a crit. The weapon can be a +0 weapon where it has the fancy thing but no plus number to attack and damage. The famous Flame Tongue is a +0 weapon, and that's a Rare item. Nothing wrong with having a +1 and something fancy.


2) They seem to make insight checks in every conversation they have and they almost always roll pretty high. So far, none of the NPCs have been lying to them (that obviously won't last forever). To counter this is my main option to roll a deception check? And then hope that they can ignore the knowledge that I rolled that?

Ask the players why they are being paranoid about every NPC they meet. Insight checks are fine, but not for everyone who talks to them. The players are having trust issues.

[da newt]

As for magic stuff, every table is different but I usually default to Zhorn's and others basic rarity to lvl appropriateness, but it sounds like your PC would really like to find something cool, so why not indulge them a bit and give them some low power but flavorable things to play with? Most of the common items are fun, consumables are a great way to add a one time cool thing to do (giant st, invisible, fly, etc), and then when you are ready for higher powered items to join the game long term, I'd second the recommendation to drop stuff with more flavor than just +1 as they tend to be more interesting and I like little quests to make them feel earned.



As for INSIGHT checks, as a DM I flat out don't use them. I don't want to tell a Player what their PC thinks. If the Player thinks it's a lie, then the PC can too, but without evidence they won't know for sure. I find this to be much more realistic (similar to real life) and helpful for narrative purposes. (I warn my players during session zero, so they know INSIGHT proff might be a waste) Some folks lie on purpose, some folks say things that they believe to be true but are in fact false, some folks lie to themselves, some folks just say things that they think might be true, some folks say thing that they hope are true, and some folks are as honest as they can be ...

[Reach Weapon]

I have given them a number of possible situations they can try to tackle. A couple are above their current ability to handle (in part because it will require magic weapons, which they don't have). A few NPCs have tried to impress upon them that they would be foolish to pursue these issues at this point.

I might consider invisibly lowering the difficulty (somewhat) of a likely insurmountable task in which the party is interested, and have occasionally added a non-deadly gating challenge to slow a party from proceeding to take one on, but at some point if the party is insistent on swimming out over their heads, you have to let them go and see if (when) they drown.

More directly to the question you explicitly asked, when I am not sure whether I want the party to have an item or not, I often try giving them a consumable to test drive, like an Oil of +1 weapon (10 minute duration) or Amulet (5 charges) of weapon effect.

Also, I tend not to put such things in treasure hoards, I give them out because I thought it'd be fun to whack the party with it first.

[Demonslayer666]

...
As a further example, they tried to follow up an attack that occurred a month ago by looking for tracks. From a month ago. Not to say there couldn't still be tracks given the right conditions, but it's a long shot at best (along with several other sets of tracks being present being a high probability) and they seemed to think it was a sure fire strategy.

That would be pretty extreme and would require little to nothing affecting the tracks (no weather). Maybe if the tracks were in mud and it dried up, or snow and it didn't blow or snow any more.

[MrStabby]

Thanks for the insight/help/answers. I'll have to talk to the players on the insight question and explain that I have probably been doing things wrong and it will need to change a bit going forward.

A follow up on the magic item situation. I have given them a number of possible situations they can try to tackle. A couple are above their current ability to handle (in part because it will require magic weapons, which they don't have). A few NPCs have tried to impress upon them that they would be foolish to pursue these issues at this point. I haven't given any indication that they are pressing problems that have to be solved now. However, some of them want to try to deal with it now. The NPCs have made clear what it will take to deal with the problem. I have had a few NPCs offer to provide a temporary solution, but it will take time. So their solution has been to beg for magic items. As in, to borrow them. I've been going from the DM guide on the whole "magic items are fairly rare" thing and thought I made this clear, so I have no idea why they thought that would work (they're 3rd level PCs in the middle of nowhere, no one is going to loan them something worth a small fortune, much less several such somethings, especially after one of them had engaged in a clandestine meeting offering their "services" to the leaders of the two groups who have a few magic weapons). Not so sure I have a question in there. Maybe just looking for comments. It's just one of a long line of decisions that I have no clue how they arrived at that idea being not only a good idea but being "the one".

I'm starting to wonder if I am not explaining things properly or if I am not explaining enough. As a further example, they tried to follow up an attack that occurred a month ago by looking for tracks. From a month ago. Not to say there couldn't still be tracks given the right conditions, but it's a long shot at best (along with several other sets of tracks being present being a high probability) and they seemed to think it was a sure fire strategy.

I think the tracking is kind of 'the guy at the gym' but applied to a skill. Its something that shouldn't be humanly possible but its happening in a fantasy setting with people that can lift horses and throw fire from their fingers. It seems like the players are expecting a campaign where heroes can do fantastical things - they just need to invest in the right skills for it. It seems like a clash of expectations.

[Unoriginal]

Not all magic weapons are powerful and expensive.

You could have someone contact the group and go "the word is you want some weapons imbued with the magicks, yeah? I have some, and they're yours if you do X job for me."

And the weapons in questions are a Moon-Touched longsword, a Staff of Birdcalls and a Pole of Collapsing that can be used as an improvised club.

[da newt]

I second Unoriginal's suggestion, but would never hand out a vanilla longsword - there are so many more interesting weapon options (whip, pike, flail, light hammer, sickle, sling, lance, war pick, net ....) and also epic common magic items like the boots of false tracks, cloak of billowing, dread helm, hat of vermin, pipe of smoke monsters, pole of angling, smoldering armor, etc ...

[Unoriginal]

and also epic common magic items like the boots of false tracks, cloak of billowing, dread helm, hat of vermin, pipe of smoke monsters, pole of angling, smoldering armor, etc ...

Those are great, to be sure, but don't really solve the "need a magic weapon" part of the problem the PCs of OP's players are facing.

[kazaryu]

I have found myself DMing a 5E game and I have a few questions. For background, I won't claim to be anything approaching a rules expert. One of my players, the one who was supposed to be the DM when we started pulling this game together, has played a lot more 5E than I have so I defer to him on some rules questions (though I do confirm them later). I have 4 players. The other 3 are much less experienced. Of those 3, 1 has watched a lot of Critical Role (for good or ill) and the other 2 know about D&D through memes and playing RPG video games. Right now they are level 3 (using milestone leveling), going to be level 4 real soon. The campaign is homebrew (though I borrowed some elements from Phandelver) set in the Forgotten Realms. I haven't narrowed down the year but it is about a century after the Spellplague. It's a mixed bag of what did and didn't happen over the last century in terms of canon events (none of them are huge Realms fans so there's no cries of "but that did/didn't happen!"). They are a Goliath Fighter, a Human Ranger, a Firbolg Druid, and a Kenku Warlock. So, onto the questions.

1) At what level should I be cool with them getting magic items and what level of magic items? Along with that, should they be able to buy things like +1 weapons and if so, at what cost?

2) They seem to make insight checks in every conversation they have and they almost always roll pretty high. So far, none of the NPCs have been lying to them (that obviously won't last forever). To counter this is my main option to roll a deception check? And then hope that they can ignore the knowledge that I rolled that?

1. at whatever level you, yourself, feel comfortable dealing with it. depending on the magic items you give them access to all you're going to do is buff them. you just need to be ready to adjust encoutners as appropraite. as far as +x weapons, there's nothing wrong with it, per se, and in fact i do it. however, if you're worried about that, you could instead give them access to things like oil of sharpness +1 so they can use magic weapons if necessary, but they don't always have the buff.

2. as others have said just roll every time. but don't tell the players what you're rolling. alternatively, you can use 'passive' skills for the NPC's (all of them) which would really just be you assigning a DC, rather than rolling for it. from an 'odds' perspective, if an NPC has a +5 to deception, so you give them an insight DC of 15-16 then on average the players will beat their deception roughly the same amount anyway. just make sure you do this change long before you actually throw a deceptive PC at them, because the sudden change might be suspicious.

something else to consider, don't just let the players ask for an insight check. ask them what they're trying to intuit, or learn. insight can be used to gain more information than just 'are they lying'.

[da newt]

Those are great, to be sure, but don't really solve the "need a magic weapon" part of the problem the PCs of OP's players are facing.

fair point - but where is the 'need a magic weapon' requirement coming from? It seems to me it's more like a 'want a magic weapon' - but yeah I completely agree at some point the party will be going up against baddies with resistance to non-magical weapons which will push things in the direction of 'the party would really benefit from at least one magical weapon' but is that really a "need"?

[MrStabby]

fair point - but where is the 'need a magic weapon' requirement coming from? It seems to me it's more like a 'want a magic weapon' - but yeah I completely agree at some point the party will be going up against baddies with resistance to non-magical weapons which will push things in the direction of 'the party would really benefit from at least one magical weapon' but is that really a "need"?

Well thats the chance for those with magic attacks as part of their class package to shine. They get a cool ability and they get to actually use that cool ability without it just being a ribbon. Having a couple of fights where the monk gets to do cool damage for example is a nice addition.

[Zhorn]

fair point - but where is the 'need a magic weapon' requirement coming from? It seems to me it's more like a 'want a magic weapon' - but yeah I completely agree at some point the party will be going up against baddies with resistance to non-magical weapons which will push things in the direction of 'the party would really benefit from at least one magical weapon' but is that really a "need"?
da newt is touching on a point I'd like to build off from.
The utilisation of creatures with immunity to non magical BPS damage is one of those areas I think isn't handled that well by the majority of tables, with it tending to be treated as an all or nothing approach most of the time.


"This monster is immune to non magical damage, therefore I will not use it at my table until all PCs have magic weapons so they can bypass the immunity. I am a smart DM"

"I will pit my party against a pack of creatures with immunity to non magical damage that they do not have an answer for in a fight to the death, defeating them and showing how deadly my campaign is. I am a smart DM"

If the immunity is just handwaved away by only having the creatures show up in the campaign when the party just bypasses it without noticing, then it was a pointless feature to have.

But on the other end if the party is corned in a situation they cannot navigate out from because they lack the tools to deal with immunity to non magical damage, that's just being needlessly antagonistic.

You want to have the lack of magical weapons be a point of contention the party wants to overcome be highlighted as some stage, and that is easily done by having an encounter with creatures having the non magical immunity before being able to bypass the immunity is ubiquitous.

Like other have stated, having magic weapons some suitable time after level 6 is a good place so monks, mood druids , beast barbarians, etc have their time in the sun where their class features significantly mean something, this is a good practice.

Then as far as experiences with monsters having the immunity before any/all of the party can handle them is about quantity and goals of said creatures;
having only a couple of 'special' units in a group of enemies, indicating the party needs to divide and conquer, where the non magical attackers still have opponents they are effective against , with prioritising the right damage dealer for the right job.
fleeing opponents, the creature with non magical damage immunity escaping a scene because they've already achieved their objective, or are heading to something else (example: getting reinforcements, sounding an alarm, moving on to a priority target), so it doesn't lock the party down in a to-the-death encounter but still signal this is an area they will want to seek out solutions to in their future progression.
flipped chase/escape. Make sure the party is not cornered in, and is VERY aware that fleeing is the encounter goal. An enemy they cannot stop and just need to escape from. Haunted ruins, or a tomb guardian I find work well here, something bound to a location so the chase/escape a clearly defined win location of where the party can get to for safety.

Similarly, the magical vs non magical weapon disparity is worth maintaining for some of the campaign while those types of creatures are in play because for a few it gives value to silvered and adamantine weapons and help to justify their cost.

[Unoriginal]

fair point - but where is the 'need a magic weapon' requirement coming from? It seems to me it's more like a 'want a magic weapon' - but yeah I completely agree at some point the party will be going up against baddies with resistance to non-magical weapons which will push things in the direction of 'the party would really benefit from at least one magical weapon' but is that really a "need"?

I agree with you in principle, even if the foe they will face in that specific adventure is immune to non-magic b/p/s weapons, there are other ways for the group to face them (ex: using a torch, trapping them, etc).

However it seems here that the NPCs won't consider telling the PCs about what is going on with that mission unless they have magic weapons. Either that's OP trying to tell them "you're too low level for that", or the NPCs just have no faith in wannabe-heroes who can't show they're good enough to get magic weapons succeeding this mission.


OP, if it's a case of you thinking they're too low-level to handle the challenge, I think you should let them try. If they're overwhelmed they can still try running.

[Tyrant]

OP, if it's a case of you thinking they're too low-level to handle the challenge, I think you should let them try. If they're overwhelmed they can still try running.
Even though I am only quoting you this will hopefully answer a few posts. The overall situation is this: I took part of the idea from Phandelver and am using the town with it being a few days on horseback from Neverwinter. The Red Cloaks (or whoever they were in the start of the adventure) have already been dealt with and a group of dwarves has opened the mine (I only know the first few bits of the official adventure, for all I know there is no mine there "officially") and the PCs have been were hired in Neverwinter to come out to the town. Their primary job is to clear the countryside of potential threats and be there in case the mines should open up to some kind of threat (that hasn't happened yet but it will soon). They have had various encounters outside the village and gone dungeon delving once already. Right now they are doubling as security for the town festival. A body was discovered outside of town and thanks to the druid talking to a squirrel they are relatively certain it was the work of a werewolf. The ranger has some druid buddies who have warned him that A) It could be something else like a barghest and B) they aren't properly equipped to handle it. So I have laid out to them the potential dangers but after that it's up to them what they do. It is a problem that will eventually become more immediate but for now it's the danger lurking at the edge. I don't plan to force the confrontation until they stand at least some chance of winning. The problem is they seem to want to engage right now (or soon) despite knowing it is a challenge above their abilities.

Edit to add: I'm not sure why they aren't pursuing silvered weapons more aggressively.

[MrStabby]

Like other have stated, having magic weapons some suitable time after level 6 is a good place so monks, mood druids , beast barbarians, etc have their time in the sun where their class features significantly mean something, this is a good practice.



The other thing that I think is good practice in this regard is restricting magical weapons to those that need attunement. Then, even at higher levels, it gives these monks and moon druids some benefit from the class feature as it gives them the freedom to attune to something else instead. Of course this only works if the campaign has enough magic items that the PCs are faced with a meaningful choice about what to attune to.