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SeekerInTheNight
2007-12-01, 10:39 PM
So Idea Man gave got me thinking with his best dragons thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65206), and his ibrandlin is pretty ridiculous... But I'm sure I'm not the only one out there wondering "What are the most CR-broken monsters out there, not just in dragons?"

So toss your ideas in, one at a time or all at once. Mention whether you're submitting for most broken by CR, most broken by type, or most broken overall. Make sure you include what book its from, and maybe the page number so we can all go mull it over as you make your case.

And remember, broken doesn't just mean "best" or "most powerful" it means that throwing monster X against party Y gets party Y eaten with a dry white, even if the CR/ECR matches up.

Official rulebooks, modules, and magazine articles from 3.0/3.5 only please. Knowing that a monster kicked ass on 1.0 isn't very helpful. ^^

================================================== ==

I'm going to submit the Hullathoin from Fiend Folio at CR15 (Page 96). A powerful undead with nasty special attacks, DR 20/+2, FH 8, SR 26 Cold and Electric Immune, Fire and Sonic Resist.

Not to mention it is quite literally a walking undead factory.

It may not compare combatwise with other CR15 monsters (Marut Inevitable), but when fiendish vampire spawn are swarming over your party and bloodfiend locuses are working hard at reducing your levels and making more undead... You'll wish for the cold steel embrace of the Marut's fist to your skull.

================================================== ==

1 Spider Swarm (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersS.html#spider-swarm) 4th level kobold Adept (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersKtoL.html#kobold)
2 Fleshraker (MM3, page 40)
3 That Damn Crab (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a)
4 5-Headed Hydra (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersHtoI.html#hydra)
5 Ibrandlin (Monsters of Faerun, page 62)
6 Belker (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersBtoC.html#belker)
7 Nimblewright (MM2, page 163)
8
9 Adamantine Horror (MM2, page 47)
10
11 Dread Wraith (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersTtoZ.html#wraith)
12 Colossal Monstrous Scorpion (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersVermin.html#monstrous-scorpion)
13
14
15 Hullathoin (Fiend Folio, page 96)
16 Planetar (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersA.html#planetar-angel)
17
18 Nagahydra (Serpent Kingdom, page 77)
19
20

Crow
2007-12-01, 10:43 PM
I'll toss in Shadows and Greater Shadows from the MM.

Tequila Sunrise
2007-12-01, 10:54 PM
Any good and/or lawful creature is almost guaranteed to be more powerful than an evil and/or chaotic creature of the same CR. Other than that, dragons as a type are the most powerful monsters in the game on a CR-for-CR basis...heck, on just about any basis!

TheLogman
2007-12-01, 10:56 PM
That Damn Crab.

Monstrous Crab, great AC, excellent BaB, huge grapple +19 I tell you! +19! AT level 3!, tons of damage on a good grapple(At LEAST 10 damage), immune to Mind-Effecting effects, great saves. It grabs two of your guys, automatically beats them in a grapple, kills them in 3 rounds max, and then eats their bodies. Ya, CR 3. The Advanced Monstrous Crab was worse, it had over a +20 to grapple I believe, and did the same horrible things, except against CR 6 characters.

As for other creatures, Dragons of any type are overwhelming for their CR, simply because they have flight AND breath weapon, both of which are powerful, especially with everything else they have.

Magmin also seem a little powerful. They have DR 5/magic, which is gonna hurt the characters they are up against (Level 3's). Plus, they light stuff on fire, and since that is a rare occurrence that can be dangerous to lower levels, they could be a little hard to kill.

Mr.Bookworm
2007-12-01, 10:57 PM
That Damn Crab, obviously. I can't remember the CR. EDIT: Ninja'd.

Dread Wraiths. They're nearly untouchable, and deal 1d8 points of Con damage on a succesful hit. CR 11.

Gralamin
2007-12-01, 10:58 PM
Do I even have to mention That Damn Crab? (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a)

Edit: Double Ninja

SeekerInTheNight
2007-12-01, 11:04 PM
^^ If you want me to put a monster up, I need to know what book its from or have a link provided.

EDIT: And we have our first monster mashup! That Damn Crab and the Shadow are both CR 3, Crabby went up because it looks ridiculous at first glance. Shadow's nominator, your reply!?!?!

EDIT2: Magmin is also CR 3, but was submitted in the same post as That Damn Crab. << Any takers?

Chronos
2007-12-01, 11:30 PM
Planetars (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelPlanetar) need to be on the list. A level 17 human cleric has a CR of 17. An outsider which casts spells like a level 17 cleric, but which is also large size, has inhumanly high stats in all ability scores (leading to more HP than the human has), fourteen maxed skills, regenerates, flies, and has a slew of useful spell-like abilities, many of them usable at will, has CR 16. C'mon, Wizards, at least try to pretend it's CR-appropriate.

Of course, it was even worse in 3.0, where there big brothers the Solars, with 20th-level casting and even more goodies, were CR 19. They're still probably worth more than the 23 they have now, but at least there's no single ability that tips them over.

TheLogman
2007-12-01, 11:38 PM
No, I just realized what this is, forget the Magmins, they are childs play compared to the Crab.

CR 2, Blink Dogs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/blinkDog.htm) are fairly powerful, since they get both Dimension Door and Blink as free actions whenever they want.

Belkers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/belker.htm)at CR 6 are nothing to sneeze at either, free gaseous form and the tearing of your insides=not nice.

Arcane Oozes in MM3 (Page 9) are CR 9, completely immune to magic, and if a Spellcaster stands within 20 feet of it, they have to make a DC 25 Fort save (Impossible pretty much) or loose their highest level spell, and the Ooze gains 5 times the spell level in HP. Plus they have like 11-12 HD. Lotta Hp.

Zincorium
2007-12-01, 11:39 PM
Just from my own experiments with under-CRed opponents, I've found the following:

With anything that's fairly big, the multiheaded template from savage species is utterly broken. With something gargantuan like the Ibrandlin, you can add up to 19 heads, which gives a huge boost to both hit dice (and the Ibrandlin's are excellent) and constitution. It also changes animal hit dice to magical beast, so critters like the Roc get a boost just from that.

Changing types from something mediocre (humanoid, giant) to something really good (outsider, dragon) also gives an inherent boost to things that already have decent hit dice, although it's generally easier to get to the in-between ones like magical beast and monstrous humanoid.

brian c
2007-12-01, 11:44 PM
There's a reason that every druid wants a Fleshraker dinosaur animal companion- the things are good. MM3, Dinosaur- Fleshraker. For a CR2 it gets 26hp, AC 20, an improved pounce ability with two claws, bite and tail for decent damage plus poison, plus a rake attack, plus it can trip and grapple on a pouncing charge. They have very good Hide and Jump checks; basically they can hide in the bushes and totally ambush a party member, ripping them to shreds.

Edit: I'd say Fleshraker >> Blink Dog, no offense. Just compare the combat stats. A Fleshraker easily takes out one member of a ECL 2 party without breaking a sweat

SeekerInTheNight
2007-12-01, 11:45 PM
List updated with Blink Dogs, That Damn Crab, Belkers, Greater Shadows, Dread Wraiths, and Planetars.


TheLogman
Don't forget Belker's have perfect 50ft flight speed. Not fun to deal with in the slightest at lower levels.


Zincorium
Yeah, anything can get ridiculous if you stick a bunch of templates on it however... We're looking more for stock monsters out of the books, not homebrewed stuff. xP Let monster optimization be discussed in another thread!

EDIT: At CR2, Doggies vs. Dinos. (Blink Dog, Fleshraker)

Discuss.

EDIT2: I tend to agree with the fleshraker, that thing's nasty. The scaly is getting the spot until/unless the fuzzy gets spoken for.

brian c
2007-12-01, 11:53 PM
EDIT: At CR2, Doggies vs. Dinos. (Blink Dog, Fleshraker)

Discuss.

Well, let's lay down the gauntlet by comparison:

HP: Blink Dog: 22, Fleshraker 26

AC: Blink Dog 14, Fleshraker 20

Attack: Blink Dog Bite +4 (1d6), Fleshraker claw +6 (1d6+3)

Full Attack: Blink Dog bite +4 (1d6), Fleshraker 2 claws +6 (1d6+3), bite +1 (1d6+1), tail +1 (1d6+1), rake (1d6+2) and with each hit there's poison, DC14 for 1d6 dex, initial and secondary.

Saves: Blink Dog +4/+7/+4, Fleshraker +6/+8/+3

Fleshraker has Leaping Pounce, full attack + trip + grapple on a charge. Blink Dog has dim door and blink.

Ralfarius
2007-12-01, 11:55 PM
Blink dog is certainly a hassle to get a hold of. However, it only attacks at +4 for 1d6 damage. Compare that to the horror that is Fleshraker, as mentioned above.

I would say getting ambushed and torn to itty-bitty pieces is more ouchie than a dog what blinks all over the place.

Chronos
2007-12-02, 12:00 AM
Belkers at CR 6 are nothing to sneeze at either, free gaseous form and the tearing of your insides=not nice.Isn't a Belker the very definition of something to sneeze at?

Nonah_Me
2007-12-02, 12:02 AM
I figure you'd sneeze a Belker away, instead of "at." However... you might also sneeze away small bits of your lungs. <--- hates Belkers

SeekerInTheNight
2007-12-02, 12:03 AM
Any DM worth their salt slaps that Belker into its 20 rounds of smoke form right off the bat and has it harass the party while they deal with other things. Its a vicious combo, and even alone its not fun to deal with at that level.

deadseashoals
2007-12-02, 12:39 AM
Runehound from MM3 is pretty broken for its CR

SeekerInTheNight
2007-12-02, 12:59 AM
Runehound from MM3 is pretty broken for its CR

>> It has an AC of 16, 37 hp and an initiative of +2. Cannonfodder. Only remotely useful in an ambush, and then only if the dm can take advantage of that 50 ft movespeed. Neeeeeext.

Idea Man
2007-12-02, 01:01 AM
I'll second the vote for arcane ooze at the CR 9 slot. It's got the advantages of an ooze, without having to worry one whit about being destroyed (actually being fed!) by the wizard or cleric. If you had a standard classic party of fighter, rogue, cleric, wizard, only one of those is really useful, and he doesn't want to be grappled (don't arcane oozes dissolve weaponry? Meh, to lazy to check).

I sent an advanced arcane ooze against a 18th level cleric and wizard. They were fed this thing 5 9th level spells in 4 rounds, as I recall. There was no manner of damage control they could apply with their spell lists as available, so they had to run. :smallamused: Ahhh, good times!

Hario
2007-12-02, 01:05 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/allip.htm
Allip though not as 3 turns and you lost 2 PCs as a damned crab is. Allips are incorperal and will do 1d4 wis drain every round. It won't kill a PC but the kobalds who find the party's bodies in a coma. Pots of Lesser restoration are hard to get by level 3 much less multiple ones. Did I not mention that unless you have a cleric with good charisma it'd be hard to turn it much less hit it since you'll need a magic sword to even hopefully damage it in its incorperal state.

Draz74
2007-12-02, 01:41 AM
Yeah, anything can get ridiculous if you stick a bunch of templates on it however... We're looking more for stock monsters out of the books, not homebrewed stuff. xP Let monster optimization be discussed in another thread!

Awwwww. :smallfrown: I wanted to submit the Lernean Multi-Headed Half-Clay Golem Bat Swarm. CR 9, completely unkillable.

Or upgrade it to Lernean Multi-Headed Half-Clay Golem Hellwasp Swarm (CR 15) if you actually wanted to be able to deal significant damage. Still completely unkillable.

Or Lernean Multi-Headed Half-Clay Golem Fire Giant (CR 17) for a similar effect.

brian c
2007-12-02, 01:46 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/allip.htm
Allip though not as 3 turns and you lost 2 PCs as a damned crab is. Allips are incorperal and will do 1d4 wis drain every round. It won't kill a PC but the kobalds who find the party's bodies in a coma. Pots of Lesser restoration are hard to get by level 3 much less multiple ones. Did I not mention that unless you have a cleric with good charisma it'd be hard to turn it much less hit it since you'll need a magic sword to even hopefully damage it in its incorperal state.

Allips are the same CR as That Damn Crab. Damn Crab wins.

Draz74
2007-12-02, 01:54 AM
For CR 1, I don't think we're going to find anything nastier than, say, a Gray Elf Wizard 1.

Unless we take into account how Pun-Pun is technically CR 1 ... :smallamused:

SeekerInTheNight
2007-12-02, 01:57 AM
I completely missed the arcane ooze the first time it was mentioned. xD

D= Level 1 sucks, I hate it, you all can die in a fire for playing at it. EVIL LEVEL 1 EVIIIIIIIL!!!

brian c
2007-12-02, 02:06 AM
Varag, MM4? That's a CR1, not particularly great but eh, it's CR1

Ganurath
2007-12-02, 02:11 AM
For CR 1, I don't think we're going to find anything nastier than, say, a Gray Elf Wizard 1.

Unless we take into account how Pun-Pun is technically CR 1 ... :smallamused:I'd have to say Spider Swarm myself, to be honest. Immune to weapons, autohit...

The_Snark
2007-12-02, 02:14 AM
For CR 1, I don't think we're going to find anything nastier than, say, a Gray Elf Wizard 1.

A level 4 kobold adept is pretty nasty. Scorching Ray will take out one of your players. And then you've got to deal with Sleep and possibly Burning Hands.

SeekerInTheNight
2007-12-02, 02:24 AM
xP Snark, you absolutely love those kobolds don't you?

I'm going to put the spider swarm and the lvl 4 kobold adept for CR 1. Mostly because the spider is the worst (so far) right out of the books, but a kobold with off-class levels (or whatever they're called) is down right dangerous.

I'm missing something... oh, still the ooze. ><

Crow
2007-12-02, 06:00 AM
Shadow; CR3. 1d6 STR damage touch attack, Incorporeal, Turning resistance.

Plus has the distinction of being Core.

brian c
2007-12-02, 06:30 AM
Shadow; CR3. 1d6 STR damage touch attack, Incorporeal, Turning resistance.

Plus has the distinction of being Core.

Has already been nominated and beaten out by The Crab. If you want to do Core-only, then it's probably the strongest CR 3, but then your options are pretty limited.

UserClone
2007-12-02, 06:31 AM
Actually, a level 4 Adept is a CR 3, Kobold or not. Levels in an NPC class get you a CR one behind that of your class level.

The_Snark
2007-12-02, 06:52 AM
Actually, a level 4 Adept is a CR 3, Kobold or not. Levels in an NPC class get you a CR one behind that of your class level.


Challenge Rating
Kobolds with levels in NPC classes have a CR equal to their character level -3.

Kobolds are simply that bad. Supposedly.

And, er, do I particularly like kobolds? I don't remember mentioning them before...

Crow
2007-12-02, 07:49 AM
Has already been nominated and beaten out by The Crab. If you want to do Core-only, then it's probably the strongest CR 3, but then your options are pretty limited.

Yes, I know, I nominated it. I just pointing out some vital statistics that others may not be familiar with. The crab is not so bad as it looks, most area control spells will allow you to take it out at leisure. It only gained it's fearsome reputation from templates.

Chronos
2007-12-02, 02:28 PM
The crab is not so bad as it looks, most area control spells will allow you to take it out at leisure.And what spells available to a level 3 party do you propose would give you enough leisure to kill it before it can eat two characters? It got the templates because it was already fearsome, not the other way around: That Damned Crab was known and feared on this board well before Fax ever made the pseudonatural paragon monstrosity.


For CR 1, I don't think we're going to find anything nastier than, say, a Gray Elf Wizard 1.At level 1, Grey Elf is a poor choice. A level 1 wizard works almost as well with 12 Int as with 19, and meanwhile you're taking a Con penalty (which hurts when you only have 4 HP base). If we're going with a level 1 wizard, Dwarf or Gnome would be a much better choice. But if a kobold Adept 4 really qualifies, then it's a clear winner over any Wiz1.

Oh, and about Allips vs. TDC, we're probably just looking at throwing them at parties of PCs, but do keep in mind that a handful of Allips can take down the Tarrasque (who is admittedly probably a bit over-CRed).

Thrawn183
2007-12-02, 03:03 PM
Colossal Monstrous Scorpion (Core)
CR 12
300 HP
Full attack: 2 Claws +34 and Sting +29
Grapple: +58!, Constrict 2d8+12
Poison on the sting: d10 Con, Fort DC 33

This thing will hit you, and will grapple two of your characters from the start (Ala Damn Crab), but will also keep stinging for some potentially severe Con damage. Has some weaknesses (like a touch AC of 1) but its saves are decent thanks to having 40HD and its pretty tough for a caster to fire off a ray or something akin if they're being grappled into oblivion.

What's worse, if unrelated, is that a druid can get this thing with a mere 4th level spell and a decent caster level.

But why is the belker listed? I looked it up and the description of gaseous form, is this some kind of joke that I don't get?

Draz74
2007-12-02, 03:06 PM
At level 1, Grey Elf is a poor choice. A level 1 wizard works almost as well with 12 Int as with 19, and meanwhile you're taking a Con penalty (which hurts when you only have 4 HP base). If we're going with a level 1 wizard, Dwarf or Gnome would be a much better choice. But if a kobold Adept 4 really qualifies, then it's a clear winner over any Wiz1.

Agreed that the Kobold Adept 4 definitely wins the competition. But disagreed about the race of a good Level 1 wizard.

A Level 1 Wizard is going to be relying very heavily on his very few save-or-lose spells (Sleep, Color Spray, or Grease) working. They have a 15% higher chance of working if he has 19 Int vs. if he has 12 Int. That's pretty big.

And I'm not sure a Dwarf Wizard with, say, 7 HP is much less likely to be dropped in one blow than an Elf Wizard with, say, 5 HP. :smalltongue:

MaxMahem
2007-12-02, 03:32 PM
One of my favorites has always been the elemental weirds from MMII. Any monster who's caster level is greater then their CR = trouble. And with the weirds it pretty much comes with no drawbacks as their base abilities aren't terrible either.

Innis Cabal
2007-12-02, 03:39 PM
the drowned from MM2,

not really awful on hit points but their aura is a nasty little trick that can reduce a other wise rather powerful group into mush.

Haakon
2007-12-02, 03:56 PM
The most powerful of the Inevitables: Marut (CR 15)

It's a construct (which limits what affects it), has SR 25, 15/chaotic DR, fasting healing 10, does lots of damage with just its fists (which both force DC 31 fort saves to prevent blindness or deafness) and it had very useful spell like abilities, most of them at will.

SeekerInTheNight
2007-12-02, 06:52 PM
What's worse, if unrelated, is that a druid can get this thing with a mere 4th level spell and a decent caster level.

But why is the belker listed? I looked it up and the description of gaseous form, is this some kind of joke that I don't get?

O_O What spell?

And the Belker is difficult as hell to kill at that CR. Most people who think to the contrary aren't aware that its smoke form occupies the same space as your character when it is engulfing you. Slap it down on the squishy and the fighter gets to take potshots at his own teammates if he's trying to kill it.

Not to mention if you're busy fighting other things and you fail the save that thing rips you up.


Inevitables: Marut CR15
*Claps his hands together and rubs them.* Alright, this one's mine.

The Marut's a beast, that much is true. But here's my reasoning for the Hullathoin. In addition to all the reasons I mentioned (in the first post) that make it a beast, it needs to be considered how powerful a party is going to be when fighting a CR15 monster.

I don't have any examples on me at the moment, but most of us are familiar with that level of prowess anyway. The Marut probably starts combat with his Circle of Death, which might take one of your party out at the most. Of course, seeing as the fighters are probably the only ones getting close to it early on so you're unlikely to even get that.

Light Inflict, Mass. Yes, its nasty if he can cast it when and where ever. Of course, your healer (probably a cleric) has so many spells to negate this at that high of a level that he alone can hold out against a Marut doing this one for long enough that the rest of your party will ruin it.

Blindness and Deafness are rough, that's true. But again, your meat-shields are probably the only ones taking this beating. Your healer can keep them alive while the rest of the team deals with the monster.

Which brings me to the next point. 1v4 or 1v6. I don't care who or what you are, any party composed of half competent PCs at a level high enough to fight a CR15 monster will trash the living daylights out of a single enemy. It just won't end well for the monster.

On the other hand, the Hullathoin is accompanied by a massive army. It may be physically weaker and less durable than the Marut, but it makes up for it in usefulness. Capacity, adaptability, sheer toolbox. I drop a Hullathoin in a town and my PCs will have an army on their hands long before they can do a fast ride back from whatever dungeon. Leave one in the countryside and no-one will find it until its far too late. Place it in the bottom of a dungeon and you have an endless supply of minions as long as you can feed it people.

And while the PCs deal with the army, the Hullathoin adds to the chaos. Or just escapes.

Maruts don't have that option. The inevitable goes straight to the target, and kills it. Or, more likely, dies. Cause anything that defies death is a good deal more powerful than a CR15 monster.

Frosty
2007-12-02, 06:58 PM
Colossal Monstrous Scorpion (Core)
CR 12
300 HP
Full attack: 2 Claws +34 and Sting +29
Grapple: +58!, Constrict 2d8+12
Poison on the sting: d10 Con, Fort DC 33

This thing will hit you, and will grapple two of your characters from the start (Ala Damn Crab), but will also keep stinging for some potentially severe Con damage. Has some weaknesses (like a touch AC of 1) but its saves are decent thanks to having 40HD and its pretty tough for a caster to fire off a ray or something akin if they're being grappled into oblivion.

What's worse, if unrelated, is that a druid can get this thing with a mere 4th level spell and a decent caster level.

But why is the belker listed? I looked it up and the description of gaseous form, is this some kind of joke that I don't get?

Can this thing Fly or have any ranged attacks? If not, then at level 12 a competent party should be able to screw it over. Also, Freedom of Movement is definitely available at level 12.

bugsysservant
2007-12-02, 07:01 PM
O_O What spell?

Presumably Giant Vermin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/giantVermin.htm). 'Course you need a CL of 20+ to do that, so by the time you can, the Colossal Scorpion shouldn't be too much of a problem. And, if you order it to attack, it will as likely attack your allies as your enemies.

Gralamin
2007-12-02, 07:23 PM
At CR 4, I think the Five-headed Hydra (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hydra.htm) is a contender. (55 hp, Fast healing 15, 5 attacks even if it moves, and head multiplication.)

deadseashoals
2007-12-02, 07:25 PM
>> It has an AC of 16, 37 hp and an initiative of +2. Cannonfodder. Only remotely useful in an ambush, and then only if the dm can take advantage of that 50 ft movespeed. Neeeeeext.

You do realize that an ogre has an AC of 16, 29 hp, and an initiative of -1, with the same CR? Random statistics are meaningless, this thing is meant to be used in an ambush on open ground. If it gets that, it's really, really hard to stop, with its massive blindsight, fast land speed, DR, fast healing, reach, and long ranged attack.

Kyeudo
2007-12-02, 07:36 PM
I nominate Skurrids. They have a ridiculous Hide modifier, so they usualy get a suprise round, they easily deal an average of 3.5 damage in a single round to the whole party with the chance for 1 point of Strength damage, and have a climb speed, so they can attack from out of reach of melee damage. They are CR 1/2 to boot, so they come in pairs at level 1.

I almost killed my party with these things as a random encounter. Betweem the two of them, a pair of Skurrids dealt 9 damage to everyone in the party in the suprise round and would have killed the party on their turn unless I hadn't had the little blighters run off.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-12-02, 07:46 PM
I'd check out the Nimblewright, from the MMII, but I'm AFB right now, so I can't say much.

EDIT: Ooh! Or the Adamantine Clockwork Horror (I think). Mordenkainen's Disjunction AT WILL.

Zanatos777
2007-12-02, 09:50 PM
At CR 4, I think the Five-headed Hydra (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hydra.htm) is a contender. (55 hp, Fast healing 15, 5 attacks even if it moves, and head multiplication.)

The hydra entry even states that it is designed to be ridiculous on purpose. I know my player will flee now instinctively from anything with more than two heads, even the non breath weapon hydras cause them to flee.

The Adamantine Horror is certainly horrible, CR 9: construct, electricity immunity, SR 22, an army of other horrors, disintegrate, implosion, and MORDENKAINEN'S DISJUNCTION at will. That is my vote for the CR 9 but I may have to go an look at more CR 9s.

SeekerInTheNight
2007-12-02, 11:20 PM
You do realize that an ogre has an AC of 16, 29 hp, and an initiative of -1, with the same CR? Random statistics are meaningless, this thing is meant to be used in an ambush on open ground. If it gets that, it's really, really hard to stop, with its massive blindsight, fast land speed, DR, fast healing, reach, and long ranged attack.

I do realize those things, but at CR3 it is being compared to That Damn Crab, not an Ogre. >>

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

I don't know what Skurrids are from, book and/or page number please.

Everyone else's nominations are going up, if there are clashes I'll post those a little after.

>< Put the CR on your entries people.
EDIT: I don't see the drowned in MM2
EDIT: Um... anyone else want to second the Elemental Weird? I don't think they're really meant to be combat based.
EDIT: The big bug is going in until something more broken at CR12 comes up. You'd be surprised how many parties just don't fly unless they're traveling.

EDIT2: Arcane Ooze and Adamantine Horror, CR 9. Discuss.

VeisuItaTyhjyys
2007-12-02, 11:49 PM
The Colossi, if read as written. Immunity to all magic, anti-magic field, and damage reduction. One can essentially not harm them without an artifact.

Worm that Walks. It adds +3 to CR and effectively makes the creature impossible to kill for good, and a very easy 100 damage/turn ability. Which doesn't seem so special, when it's considered as an epic. However, it may be any sorceror or wizard. Any. Personally, as an evil epic wizard, I'd just kill the entire cult following me and bring them back, level ones and all, as these horrible abominations. Thanks to ritual spells, it won't even cost me much of anything.

The Nagahydra from Serpent Kingdoms is pretty brutal, as well.

The_Snark
2007-12-02, 11:59 PM
The Arcane Ooze is decent, but a melee fighter with Freedom of Movement can just keep pounding it until it dies, and with that AC, it will die very quickly. Attack bonus is only decent, too. It can also be harmed by Orb spells...

... whereas the Adamantine Horror has a DC 24 save-or-die, as well as a DC 24 save-or-lose-all-magical-possessions. Both at-will. Has pretty decent AC and SR, too.

SeekerInTheNight
2007-12-03, 12:03 AM
Colossi and Worm That Walks are Epic, I'm not going to touch that. >> No offense.

Nagahydras on the other hand... rather ridiculous even without 15 sorc levels. Going up for CR18, that one.

Kompera
2007-12-03, 06:30 AM
Planetars (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelPlanetar) need to be on the list. A level 17 human cleric has a CR of 17. An outsider which casts spells like a level 17 cleric, but which is also large size, has inhumanly high stats in all ability scores (leading to more HP than the human has), fourteen maxed skills, regenerates, flies, and has a slew of useful spell-like abilities, many of them usable at will, has CR 16. C'mon, Wizards, at least try to pretend it's CR-appropriate.How can both of those be correct? If a level 17 human cleric is CR 17, which means that 17 is the "average level of a party of adventurers for which one creature would make an encounter of moderate difficulty" (my italics for emphasis), when that party itself could contain a level 17 human cleric (or 4 of them), then something is wrong with that CR.

As for the Planetar, since he is a single monster upon which the entire party can concentrate their attacks, having the casting powers of one of them plus a slew of other abilities (and please, don't hold the 4 Craft or Knowledge skills against its CR. I sincerely doubt that having Craft: Basket Weaving and three other Crafts/Knowledge skills at max ranks will have an impact on a combat) seems like a fair bet for a challenging fight.

shadowdemon_lord
2007-12-03, 07:26 AM
As to the collossal bug, whatever dude. First of all any 12th level party without heroes feast running is either stupid or has no cleric. Second of all it's not that bad. FoM is also a clear choice for clerics to pick up, so anyone meleeing it is going to be immune to grapple. It's a vermin, so it's to stupid to go after the casters. Once you take away it's massive poison and grapple check, it's got 1 attack a round, a 26 AC, and 300 HP's. Whoopdeedoo.

Guy_Whozevl
2007-12-03, 08:46 AM
I'm not sure if this is a valid entry, but a remorhaz is quite good at a CR 7. It has a decent AC for a Huge creature (20). Will almost always hit you with a high attack bonus and strong bite, can swallow you whole, and can incenerate you if you hit it (it supposedly gets pissed and deals fire damage to whatever hits it, melting weapons in the process). A pretty broken package from MM for its CR.

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-03, 09:10 AM
Me - I love the Thoqqua (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersTtoZ.html#thoqqua). For CR 2, it is a merciless killing machine. 1d6+3 +2d6 fire... are you kidding me? And make a save or you are on fire for even more damage?

It also has sweet, sweet, golden cheese tactics associated. First it has Tremorsense. Next it has a burrow speed. Lastly it has the almighty, sacred power of flavor text based special attacks.


COMBAT
When a thoqqua is disturbed, its first instinct is to attack. Its favored tactic is to spring directly at a foe, either by bursting out of the rock or by coiling up its body and launching itself like a spring. (Treat this as a charge, even though the thoqqua does not need to move 10 feet before attacking.)

Yes, it can charge every single round. If you are feeling really frisky, adding 4 HD will make it go to Large size and the CR only goes to 4. Give it Improved Natural Attack for it's feat, add it's stat bonus to STR and now you have a critter that is hitting for 2d6+10 +2d6 fire. At CR 4.

AstralFire
2007-12-03, 09:21 AM
I keep thinking this topic is about something else entirely and wondering why Changelings aren't being mentioned. >_>

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-03, 09:24 AM
I keep thinking this topic is about something else entirely and wondering why Changelings aren't being mentioned. >_>

Don't make the Admins destroy this thread. :smallwink:

AstralFire
2007-12-03, 09:32 AM
Don't make the Admins destroy this thread. :smallwink:

Hey, I was just talking about their ability to imitate anyone for, er, destructive purposes. Sneak attack from behind.

...

Oh hell, I'm not making this any better.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-03, 09:39 AM
Let's not go into that territory, or we'll end up debating the true purpose of the monk.

Huduvudu
2007-12-03, 09:46 AM
I'd check out the Nimblewright, from the MMII, but I'm AFB right now, so I can't say much.

I really like the Nimblewright. Alter self, Cat's grace, Entropic shield, Feather Fall, and Haste at will, in addition to the Tripping Thrust (Ref 19 save or be tripped on a critical hit) and Augmented Critical (threat on 12-20) feats and construct traits. I think its biggest drawbacks are vulnerability to cold and fire, which slow and stun it, respectively.

Unfortunately for the CR 7 slot I have to agree with Guy_Whozevl's suggestion of the Remorhaz.


I'm not sure if this is a valid entry, but a remorhaz is quite good at a CR 7. It has a decent AC for a Huge creature (20). Will almost always hit you with a high attack bonus and strong bite, can swallow you whole, and can incenerate you if you hit it (it supposedly gets pissed and deals fire damage to whatever hits it, melting weapons in the process). A pretty broken package from MM for its CR.

That "Heat" effect makes it deal 8d6 points of damage to anything that hits it with a natural or unarmed attack, and melts weapons that touch it if they fail a DC 18 Fort save. The +23 Grapple bonus gives it a pretty steep chance to overcome a player's check and swallow them the next round.

If it does, that person takes 2d8+12 bludgeoning damage in addition to the 8d6 fire damage. Interestingly someone wielding a light slashing/piercing weapon can cut their way out of the gizzard (AC 15) by dealing 25 points of damage to it, after which anyone else must cut their own way out. The gizzard can hold up to 4 Medium-sized creatures, which in some cases could be an entire adventuring party. Granted that it probably should be defeated before that happens, but that's a lot of obstacles to attempt to overcome.

Chronos
2007-12-03, 02:56 PM
The Colossi, if read as written. Immunity to all magic, anti-magic field, and damage reduction. One can essentially not harm them without an artifact.We had a thread recently about those critters, and found that several different classes could kill it easily at level 20, and there was even a paladin build that could do it at level 2. Not too bad for their epic CR.


How can both of those be correct? If a level 17 human cleric is CR 17, which means that 17 is the "average level of a party of adventurers for which one creature would make an encounter of moderate difficulty" (my italics for emphasis), when that party itself could contain a level 17 human cleric (or 4 of them), then something is wrong with that CR.An equal-CR encounter isn't supposed to be something that can go either way. It's supposed to be something that the party can beat consistently, but which takes some effort. A single level 17 character versus four level 17 characters meets this criterion.

Zanatos777
2007-12-03, 05:33 PM
If you want epic then I put forth the demilich. Seriously I think this may be the most overpowered monster ever created. Using the one in the Epic Handbook not a custom one is still insane. Read it an weep the darn things are immune to magic, not just magic that grants spell resistance but all magic and supernatural abilities save shatter (I'm so scarred!!!), dispel evil (ditto), and holy smite. You know what just read it: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/demilich.htm

brian c
2007-12-03, 06:14 PM
We don't want Epic.

Anyway, for CR 8, I think Greater Shadow has already been suggested, so I'll second it. Shadows are badass.

At CR10, we've got the eleven-headed hydra, nine-headed pyro/cyro-hydra, but what I like most (for bang for the buck) is the Rakshasa. Fair hp and AC, but hard-to-beat DR and very good SR make it hard to hurt. It also has Change Shape to disguise itself, and casts as a 7th level Sorcerer.

deadseashoals
2007-12-03, 08:39 PM
First level half iron golem (MM2) for CR 4. Super AC, lots of strength, massive DR, magic immunity, and a boatload of bonus hit points to make up for the lack of hit dice. Plus, a poison breath weapon that has a secondary effect of death.

Elemental weirds (MM2) another poster mentioned, but I don't see them up on the main post yet, and they definitely should be, so I second them. Casting as 18th level sorcerers for CR 12? And tons of other abilities?

Spell weavers (MM2 again) cast as 12th level sorcerers for CR 10. They can also cast as many as 6 spells in a turn (up to 6 spell levels per turn, thanks to their six arms).

Bone nagas (MM2, yay) cast as 14th level sorcerers for CR 11. With undead immunities and SR.

VeisuItaTyhjyys
2007-12-03, 10:05 PM
We had a thread recently about those critters, and found that several different classes could kill it easily at level 20, and there was even a paladin build that could do it at level 2. Not too bad for their epic CR.

Seriously? That's hardcore. Link, please?

Ganurath
2007-12-03, 10:21 PM
For CR 8, I'd like to put forward the Juvenile Blue Dragon. 142 HP, 8d8 breath weapon with a 100 ft range, and burrow speed. Use similiar tactics to those of the Dread Wraith: Go underground, move to where you won't be charged, pop out to zap, go back under. Especially effective in native desert home since tunnels reseal behind the dragon.

Chronos
2007-12-03, 11:06 PM
Sorry, I misremembered. Paladin 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3582902#post3582902). It didn't even require any optimizing, beyond having two specific magic items and a touch of damage-boosting. Mind you, it'd take a really long time.

brian c
2007-12-03, 11:41 PM
First level half iron golem (MM2) for CR 4. Super AC, lots of strength, massive DR, magic immunity, and a boatload of bonus hit points to make up for the lack of hit dice. Plus, a poison breath weapon that has a secondary effect of death.

Elemental weirds (MM2) another poster mentioned, but I don't see them up on the main post yet, and they definitely should be, so I second them. Casting as 18th level sorcerers for CR 12? And tons of other abilities?

Spell weavers (MM2 again) cast as 12th level sorcerers for CR 10. They can also cast as many as 6 spells in a turn (up to 6 spell levels per turn, thanks to their six arms).

Bone nagas (MM2, yay) cast as 14th level sorcerers for CR 11. With undead immunities and SR.

So... what you're saying is, MM2 has some tough monsters. I sure wish they had updated it to 3.5 though

Ganurath
2007-12-03, 11:48 PM
So... what you're saying is, MM2 has some tough monsters. I sure wish they had updated it to 3.5 thoughShould MM2 be allowed?

brian c
2007-12-04, 12:03 AM
Should MM2 be allowed?

I'm not saying to disallow it, I'm just saying that, with the evidence presented, it seems like it has a tendency to be overpowered. Possibly if it had been upgraded to 3.5, it would have had it's power levels adjusted (downward)

Fizban
2007-12-04, 12:08 AM
It was updated. Check the WoTC site, the 3.5 update booklets, there's one for MMII. Doesn't change too much, mostly DR, skills, feats, and other minor things when monsters started working the same as everything else.

The_Snark
2007-12-04, 12:14 AM
The CRs are a little off in that book, though. Elemental weirds, for example; they're immobile, but CR 12 is still low for something that casts as an 18th-level sorcerer.

In Frostburn, they added two new ones, and while they're nearly identical to the old ones, they're CR 15. Much better.

deadseashoals
2007-12-04, 12:14 AM
So... what you're saying is, MM2 has some tough monsters. I sure wish they had updated it to 3.5 though

They did. It's in the update guide.

deadseashoals
2007-12-04, 12:18 AM
Another one of the greatest hits from MM2, the Juggernaut is crazy overpowered for CR 11. Forcecage and Wall of force at will, or it can just squash people for 10d10+20, and its spell resistance is so high as to be meaningless (even a level 11 caster with assay spell resistance needs to roll a 15 or better). It's really slow, but that doesn't matter so much when it has all these crazy at will spell like abilities to shape the battlefield.

Zanatos777
2007-12-04, 12:29 AM
We don't want Epic.

I didn't think so but I thought why not share my two cents since I thought I saw someone else mention an epic creature.

Edit: I'll second the Rakasha as well. Those things are nasty.

SeekerInTheNight
2007-12-04, 12:34 AM
Wow, and the thread takes off. ^_^ Cool.

I'll make an update when Heroes ends, if anyone has a change to be made, an argument for a change, or an addition, make with the talky pocky.

The_Snark
2007-12-04, 01:03 AM
Nimblewrights are cool, but the Phasm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/phasm.htm) is plain ridiculous. Any large creature?

Fire giant, yeah, that's an okay form... but what about a horned devil (35 AC, 31 Str, 4 natural attacks)? Marilith (29 AC, 29 Str, good set of natural attacks with constriction)? Balor (35 AC, 35 Str, flight and a pair of slams, not to mention intimidation value)?

Or, if you really hate your players, anaxim, dream larvae, and infernals (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#anaxim) will let your phasm destroy any level 7 party.

Its only real weakness is spells, and it has pretty decent saves (especially in the better forms).

Ninja Chocobo
2007-12-04, 01:13 AM
Nimblewrights are cool, but the Phasm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/phasm.htm) is plain ridiculous. Any large creature?

Fire giant, yeah, that's an okay form... but what about a horned devil (35 AC, 31 Str, 4 natural attacks)? Marilith (29 AC, 29 Str, good set of natural attacks with constriction)? Balor (35 AC, 35 Str, flight and a pair of slams, not to mention intimidation value)?

Or, if you really hate your players, anaxim, dream larvae, and infernals (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#anaxim) will let your phasm destroy any level 7 party.

Its only real weakness is spells, and it has pretty decent saves (especially in the better forms).

Ok, the Phasm wins. So hard.

ghost_warlock
2007-12-04, 01:42 AM
Another one of the greatest hits from MM2, the Juggernaut is crazy overpowered for CR 11. Forcecage and Wall of force at will, or it can just squash people for 10d10+20, and its spell resistance is so high as to be meaningless (even a level 11 caster with assay spell resistance needs to roll a 15 or better). It's really slow, but that doesn't matter so much when it has all these crazy at will spell like abilities to shape the battlefield.

Funny, I remember a campaign in which my ECL 9 pixie wizard pretty much soloed a juggernaut by flying around and spamming orbs

deadseashoals
2007-12-04, 02:47 AM
Funny, I remember a campaign in which my ECL 9 pixie wizard pretty much soloed a juggernaut by flying around and spamming orbs

It could have just readied to forcecage you when you cast an orb, though it would have no need to. I honestly have no idea how you even significantly dented its fast healing dealing 3d8 damage a round before running out of spell slots as a level 5 wizard.

Telok
2007-12-04, 06:55 AM
CR 13, Half-Fiend Adult White Dragon.

Blasphemy as a spell like ability at caster level 18. 1d10 minutes of paralysis. Plus the usual death-by-smart-monster stuff.

More fun, Half-Fiend Mature Adult White Dragon. CR 15 and 21 HD.

What? The rogue was neutral aligned? Destruction! Horrid Wilting!

Links:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfFiend.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#whiteDragon

brian c
2007-12-04, 08:52 AM
CR 13, Half-Fiend Adult White Dragon.

Blasphemy as a spell like ability at caster level 18. 1d10 minutes of paralysis. Plus the usual death-by-smart-monster stuff.

More fun, Half-Fiend Mature Adult White Dragon. CR 15 and 21 HD.

What? The rogue was neutral aligned? Destruction! Horrid Wilting!

Links:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfFiend.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#whiteDragon

Templates make lots of things overpowered. We're going for straight out of the book monsters here (or in rare cases, class levels, such as with the kobold adept)

fendrin
2007-12-04, 10:00 AM
I actually have to vote for the shadow over the crab. I mean, I once had a shadowdancer (3.0 version) that literally took over the world.

1d6 str drain? incorporeal? it literally can hide in the ground for full cover and touch attack the party's feet. What are you going to do? You ready an action to magic missile it as it attacks... the mage with the 8 str dies in two turns and oops! there's another shadow to contend with, and no more force damage to be had. Put it in a village and there's an army waiting to swarm.

The crab? A lvl 1 warlock can solo it. Spider climb up a wall/tree/whatever and eldritch blast it into oblivion.

3D tactics ftw (which is how I had a lvl 3 Paladin defeat the colossus... well, lvl 3 Pally way off from WBL, but still.)

Kompera
2007-12-04, 10:24 AM
An equal-CR encounter isn't supposed to be something that can go either way. It's supposed to be something that the party can beat consistently, but which takes some effort. A single level 17 character versus four level 17 characters meets this criterion.Ok, fair enough. I'd argue that a 17th Cleric vs a 17th Cleric plus three other 17th PCs won't take much effort, but that's subjective. But it still begs the question of the Planetar having the same CR as the 17th Cleric. Here we have a much more fair fight for a group of 4 PCs. Even though both the Planetar and the NPC Cleric get only a single action and present only a single target, the Planetar has a handy amount of other abilities to add to its capabilities as a challenge beyond the spell casting capabilities of the NPC Cleric. If they are both CR 17 then there are some serious issues with the CR system which extends beyond a few out of place monsters such as the damned crab, etc.

Edit: Grammar

Chronos
2007-12-04, 11:02 AM
If they are both CR 17 then there are some serious issues with the CR system which extends beyond a few out of place monsters such as the damned crab, etc.They aren't both CR 17. The Planetar is CR 16, actually lower than the cleric, despite having everything the cleric has and a lot more. Which does indeed reflect a problem with the CR system, and is why the Planetar is on this list.

fendrin
2007-12-04, 04:30 PM
In another thread about the crab (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64926), it came up that the crab would be taking a -20 penalty in order to grapple with just it's claw (instead of using it's whole body), so now it has looking at a much easier to deal with -1.

Technically it could do a full-body grapple, but then it would need to make a grapple check to move, and would also only be moving at half speed.

Seriously though, doing that would be WAY beyond it's intelligence level. And really strange looking, too.

Ganurath
2007-12-04, 04:36 PM
In another thread about the crab (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64926), it came up that the crab would be taking a -20 penalty in order to grapple with just it's claw (instead of using it's whole body), so now it has looking at a much easier to deal with -1.

Technically it could do a full-body grapple, but then it would need to make a grapple check to move, and would also only be moving at half speed.

Seriously though, doing that would be WAY beyond it's intelligence level. And really strange looking, too.So, knock it off the list in favor of the shadow assassin vine?

fendrin
2007-12-04, 04:37 PM
So, knock it off the list in favor of the shadow?

That's my vote, others may disagree.

EDIT: Assassin Vine? with a 5' movement rate it will take out at most 1 PC. Then the rest of the party will range-attack it from safety.

A shadow can easily take out an entire party, if played right (of course, one might argue whether an int 6 justifies my use of tactics).

deadseashoals
2007-12-04, 06:17 PM
They aren't both CR 17. The Planetar is CR 16, actually lower than the cleric, despite having everything the cleric has and a lot more. Which does indeed reflect a problem with the CR system, and is why the Planetar is on this list.

Well, the cleric gets NPC wealth by level, which is supposed to factor into its CR, and it gets free choice of feats, whereas the Planetar is stuck with his. But yeah, that hardly makes up for the Planetar's dizzying array of special abilities and stat adjustments. Other creatures like the Planetar include the Ghaele Eladrin (CR 13, 14th-level cleric casting) and the Trumpet Archon (CR 14, 14th-level cleric casting).

puppyavenger
2007-12-04, 06:35 PM
Well, the cleric gets NPC wealth by level, which is supposed to factor into its CR, and it gets free choice of feats, whereas the Planetar is stuck with his. But yeah, that hardly makes up for the Planetar's dizzying array of special abilities and stat adjustments. Other creatures like the Planetar include the Ghaele Eladrin (CR 13, 14th-level cleric casting) and the Trumpet Archon (CR 14, 14th-level cleric casting).

umm aren't feats supposed to be cangable?

deadseashoals
2007-12-04, 07:22 PM
umm aren't feats supposed to be cangable?

If you change a monster's feats, you will throw off its intended CR. For example, if you give Power Attack to a monster that doesn't have Power Attack, but is a very strong melee hitter, you will make it much more challenging. If you give Leap Attack and Shock Trooper to a Fire Giant, you must hate your players :tongue:

brian c
2007-12-04, 08:01 PM
Well, the cleric gets NPC wealth by level, which is supposed to factor into its CR, and it gets free choice of feats, whereas the Planetar is stuck with his. But yeah, that hardly makes up for the Planetar's dizzying array of special abilities and stat adjustments. Other creatures like the Planetar include the Ghaele Eladrin (CR 13, 14th-level cleric casting) and the Trumpet Archon (CR 14, 14th-level cleric casting).

For the time being at least, I say we nominate these fellas.

Ghaele Eladrin, CR 13

Trumpet Archon, CR 14

Those slots are empty so far, so let's have something there.

Hario
2007-12-05, 12:07 AM
Though I can see the shadow is fairly badass. I do think the Allip is a bit worse, though it can't effectively kill you. It can put you in a permenant coma. drain>damage. Also the Allip has more HP, better Initiative, and abilities like hypnosis can easily kill off other party members, especially with their lowered will saves. I'd more or less put them on the same overpowered level. The Allip will always cripple a party after one attack, the DM would need to purposely kill off your character on a shadow to make the damage work. Also I used to think ability damage didn't stack, but I guess it does.

Dementrius
2007-12-05, 12:08 AM
If you change a monster's feats, you will throw off its intended CR. For example, if you give Power Attack to a monster that doesn't have Power Attack, but is a very strong melee hitter, you will make it much more challenging. If you give Leap Attack and Shock Trooper to a Fire Giant, you must hate your players :tongue:

...or Vow of Poverty to a Young Adult Gold Dragon for that matter.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-12-05, 12:33 AM
SM7 for a Movanic Deva from the Fiend Folio mostly for the specials like a no cost Raise Dead or Commune.

Hario
2007-12-05, 01:49 AM
...or Vow of Poverty to a Young Adult Gold Dragon for that matter.
That works fine, you break into the bank, also owned by the dragon, who set up a trust fund for a non profit organization, Coppers for Kobolds.

Gralamin
2007-12-05, 01:52 AM
...or Vow of Poverty to a Young Adult Gold Dragon for that matter.

How about a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon Ascendant with Vow of Poverty? That'd be completely Fair right? :smallbiggrin:

puppyavenger
2007-12-05, 06:58 AM
How about a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon Ascendant with Vow of Poverty? That'd be completely Fair right? :smallbiggrin:

Now what sane great wyrm would take vow of poverty?

fendrin
2007-12-05, 07:30 AM
Though I can see the shadow is fairly badass. I do think the Allip is a bit worse, though it can't effectively kill you. It can put you in a permenant coma. drain>damage. Also the Allip has more HP, better Initiative, and abilities like hypnosis can easily kill off other party members, especially with their lowered will saves. I'd more or less put them on the same overpowered level. The Allip will always cripple a party after one attack, the DM would need to purposely kill off your character on a shadow to make the damage work. Also I used to think ability damage didn't stack, but I guess it does.

I don't know. The only way an allip can kill is by putting you in a coma and making you starve to death. Hypnotism makes you 'friendlier' to the Allip, but not to the point of attacking other party members. It's really a defense/plot motivator, not an attack. For that matter, it's a lot easier to run away from an allip, because they are slower than a shadow. Really though, it's the spawning power that makes shadows so dangerous.

Especially in a city... low on HP? duck through a wall and start killing commoners, then go back with reinforcements. The funny thing is that the party members will die just as fast as the commoners, but the party can do more damage in the process.

Hario
2007-12-05, 12:38 PM
Now what sane great wyrm would take vow of poverty?

One with an annoying greedy evil party of adventurers near by. DUH!


Edit also Fendrin, with an Intelligence of 6 I'm Unsure if it'd know to retreat to bring 'reinforcements', especially so quickly. Too bad we can't test the theory since shadows and allips have a strength of 0, so if you put them together the shadow couldn't do anything to the allip, doesn't mean the shadow isn't strong just means that strength damage does nothing to the allip. I'm going to rienstate though, since I know most DM's aren't looking to outright kill your party, a shadow is ok at temporarily crippling your party but to do any real damage it needs to kill off a party member. Wis drain is permenent and at level 3 the restoration spell is 4 levels too short to quite easily get fixed, most parties would need to pool money to have a high level cleric cast the spell.

Chronos
2007-12-05, 01:14 PM
If you really want to screw over the party by swapping out feats, take something with over 20 HD and give it epic feats instead of the regular ones. Solar with Epic Spellcasting, anyone? And twice the usual number of epic spell slots, since it maxed out both Knowledge: Religion and Knowledge: Nature?

MaxMahem
2007-12-05, 02:47 PM
If you change a monster's feats, you will throw off its intended CR. For example, if you give Power Attack to a monster that doesn't have Power Attack, but is a very strong melee hitter, you will make it much more challenging. If you give Leap Attack and Shock Trooper to a Fire Giant, you must hate your players :tongue:

While I do not doubt that adjusting the feat selection for a monster can make it far more or less powerful, I don't see anywhere in the rules that it should adjust the CR of the monster. Indeed I do recall the GM being suggested TO adjust the feat selection of monsters and generic NPCs so as to individualize them to his campaign.

However I do agree that for purposes of comparison in this thread only base feat selection should be allowed.

Ganurath
2007-12-05, 07:24 PM
One with an annoying greedy evil party of adventurers near by. DUH!


Edit also Fendrin, with an Intelligence of 6 I'm Unsure if it'd know to retreat to bring 'reinforcements', especially so quickly. Too bad we can't test the theory since shadows and allips have a strength of 0, so if you put them together the shadow couldn't do anything to the allip, doesn't mean the shadow isn't strong just means that strength damage does nothing to the allip. I'm going to rienstate though, since I know most DM's aren't looking to outright kill your party, a shadow is ok at temporarily crippling your party but to do any real damage it needs to kill off a party member. Wis drain is permenent and at level 3 the restoration spell is 4 levels too short to quite easily get fixed, most parties would need to pool money to have a high level cleric cast the spell.If a shadow were loose in a city, it wouldn't go after the party first. It'd go after commoners until a shady epidemic broke out.

TheLogman
2007-12-05, 09:35 PM
Drowned are on page 46 of MM 3, not MM 2. They are a CR 8, BUT have 20!!! HD, (Undead HD too, which is d12) AND Unholy Toughness, which gives its Charisma modifier times its HD in extra HP (Granted, its CHA score of 12 only gives a +1, but that's still 20 extra hp, for 150 hp, at CR 8!!). Of course, that is a minor problem compared to the rest. They have a land and swim speed of 30 ft. They have 2 +12 Slam attacks, each at 1d8+12, but you can use their Power Attack to alter it (That statistic given is a -5 +5 trade, but its Power Attack, so you can alter that).

Of course, the major danger, and the one that'll kill you fastest is the drowning aura. It gives of a 30 feet radius emanation of drowning...ya. Each turn you are in its radius, make a Con check of 10 (That's right, pure Con) or start drowning. You can't hold your breath, and your fighter over there with 20 Con has only a +5 to this check, maybe +6 if you casted Bear's Endurance on him.

This means your FIGHTER has a 1/4 chance of failing this. If you succeed this save, you have to make another save next turn at 10+1, then 10+2, 10+3, it increasing each time you succeed until you fail. Then, you fall unconscious. Next round, you instantly die. You should probably cast Water Breathing on him within the next turn (Which would mean you would have to cast it on yourself beforehand unless he is at the edge, which is unlikely, considering its tendency to charge, good attacks, and good movement speed).

It specifically states that you may NOT hold your breath in this aura (You make that check in the first round, and keep making it until you leave), only run, or hope you don't fail. Once you do, you have 6 seconds (1 round) until you die, but during those 6 seconds, you're unconscious, so you better hope that your Cleric prepared a LOT of Water Breathings today, and is courageous.

brian c
2007-12-05, 09:59 PM
Wow. Yeah that gets my vote for CR 8

shaddy_24
2007-12-05, 10:08 PM
Wow. Yeah that gets my vote for CR 8

I'll third that. I took a look at them and it was pretty strong. I also nominate the elemental weirds, nothing beats that. You can hit a level 12 party with meteor swarm. METEOR SWARM! That's horrible.

TheLogman
2007-12-05, 10:18 PM
Oh, although it's overkill by this point, the Drowned also get +20 to Hide and Move Silently, +18 to Swim, can take 10 on swim checks even when distracted, +18 to Spot, and +14 to Listen. Yup, skill points well spent. In addition, it has Darkvision 60ft, +17!!! to Grapple (Although you'll die from drowning by the time it gets to you) and Fast Healing 5. The only weakness it has are its saves +6 Fort, +9 Ref, and +12 Will. Course, it has Undead traits, which limit magics, and cause it has 20 HD (Which is sadly, not a typo), it is practically impossible to turn for ANYONE, especially a level 8 Cleric.