Pregnancy + Wildshape

[Talothorn]

If a pregnant druid wildshape into a bird, do they lay an egg?
How long until it hatches?
What hatches from the egg?

[Rebel7284]

If a pregnant druid wildshape into a bird, do they lay an egg?

DM call, whatever is best for the story


How long until it hatches?

DM call, whatever is best for the story


What hatches from the egg?

DM call, whatever is best for the story

Did you expect this to be addressed within the rules? Neither the DMG or PHB even mention pregnancy in any context. I think Book of Vile Darkness or Heroes of Horror might have some ways of adding evil templates to unborn children, but even they don't dwell on this topic too much. [edit: I was thinking of Unholy Scion from HoH p. 155]

[Crake]

A certain third party book covers rules for this, shapechanging into a form incapable of carrying the child effectively kills it, and requires a fort save for the mother vs some ability damage if the child is particularly far along i believe.

But of course, thats third party, you can do whatever you want.

[Batcathat]

This could be an interesting variation on the classic "pregnant woman goes into labor at the worst possible time" trope. Not only does the kid pop out during an adventure, but it's also a bird! :smalltongue:

On the other hand, if it could be changed back into its intended form, I could see people doing this on purpose. I'm not an expert, but I imagine popping out an egg is easier than a live birth.

[Tzardok]

On the other hand, if it could be changed back into its intended form, I could see people doing this on purpose. I'm not expert, but I imagine popping out an egg is easier than a live birth.

Depends on the bird; a kiwi's egg weighs 20% of the mother's body (without egg). :smallbiggrin:

[aglondier]

As a DM, my take would place the pregnancy right alongside the rest of the druids equipment and physical features...absorbed by the wildshape without further effect, and returned intact when they resume their original form...

[daremetoidareyo]

obvviously, you wildshape into a seahorse, thereby quantum tunneling your babies to the sire who then needs to bring them to term. So many druids got incredibly efficient at this that they made a seahorse an intermediate from between wildshapes so you don't even see it happen.

[Maat Mons]

If a Druid Wild Shapes into a Myconid and releases a cloud of spores, does it become a cloud of babies when he changes back?

[JNAProductions]

As a DM, my take would place the pregnancy right alongside the rest of the druids equipment and physical features...absorbed by the wildshape without further effect, and returned intact when they resume their original form...

I'd do this too.

[daremetoidareyo]

I think you need to be in dragonblood or part fiend for any of this to work. We need that propensity for cross breeding

[False God]

Wildshape is a magical effect. Therefore the answer is "magic". My best choices are A: it gets absorbed like a piece of gear, or B: it terminates.

Assuming it doesn't terminate I would argue going into labor would kick you out of wildshape.

[aglondier]

Wildshape is a magical effect. Therefore the answer is "magic". My best choices are A: it gets absorbed like a piece of gear, or B: it terminates.

Assuming it doesn't terminate I would argue going into labor would kick you out of wildshape.

Druids are all about nature and life. I can't see one of their core class abilities being the cause of the termination of a pregnancy.
If the pregnancy is absorbed into their wildshape like a piece of gear, then I would rule that labour would be put on hold until they return to their base form...

[False God]

Druids are all about nature and life. I can't see one of their core class abilities being the cause of the termination of a pregnancy.
If the pregnancy is absorbed into their wildshape like a piece of gear, then I would rule that labour would be put on hold until they return to their base form...

Hmm, yeah you're probably right, though for simplicity it might easier to just rule the pregnancy is paused while absorbed.

[Metastachydium]

Wildshape is a magical effect. Therefore the answer is "magic". My best choices are A: it gets absorbed like a piece of gear, or B: it terminates.

Assuming it doesn't terminate I would argue going into labor would kick you out of wildshape.


Druids are all about nature and life. I can't see one of their core class abilities being the cause of the termination of a pregnancy.
If the pregnancy is absorbed into their wildshape like a piece of gear, then I would rule that labour would be put on hold until they return to their base form...


Hmm, yeah you're probably right, though for simplicity it might easier to just rule the pregnancy is paused while absorbed.

The wording in the SRD (http://dndsrd.net/druid.html) is as follows:

Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When the druid reverts to her true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on her body that they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the druid's feet.

I find the idea that a living creature inside another living creature is an object worn or carried on the creature's body at least as baffling. I'm not in love with the implications either. So, let's turn the question around instead: a gnome druid wild shapes into a dire shark and uses Swallow Whole on an unarmed air genasi wearing a ring of acid resistance and a shirt of bones. What happens if the druid changes back to gnome form before the air genasi dies and is digested?

[JNAProductions]

The wording in the SRD (http://dndsrd.net/druid.html) is as follows:

I find the idea that a living creature inside another living creature is an object worn or carried on the creature's body at least as baffling. I'm not in love with the implications either. So, let's turn the question around instead: a gnome druid wild shapes into a dire shark and uses Swallow Whole on an unarmed air genasi wearing a ring of acid resistance and a shirt of bones. What happens if the druid changes back to gnome form before the air genasi dies and is digested?

The genasi pops out next to the gnome.

Moreover, I don't think anyone who's on the "Pregnancy is just paused or stowed with gear," thinks that that's the clear RAW, no objections possible, do this or you're houseruling. For me at least, it's just a simple way to handle it without being squicky.

[Metastachydium]

The genasi pops out next to the gnome.

Huh. Is that RAW? And what happens if the druid is an awakened dire shark that wild shaped into a dire shark before swallowing the genasi? What if the druid (still an awakened dire shark) swallows the genasi before wild shaping into another dire shark? Does the druid have to re-swallow the damn planetouched in either case? Or both cases? So many questions.


Moreover, I don't think anyone who's on the "Pregnancy is just paused or stowed with gear," thinks that that's the clear RAW, no objections possible, do this or you're houseruling. For me at least, it's just a simple way to handle it without being squicky.

I don't like the "fetus is an object that just ceases to exist for a number of hours" very much, either, truth be told.

[daremetoidareyo]

Huh. Is that RAW? And what happens if the druid is an awakened dire shark that wild shaped into a dire shark before swallowing the genasi? What if the druid (still an awakened dire shark) swallows the genasi before wild shaping into another dire shark? Does the druid have to re-swallow the damn planetouched in either case? Or both cases? So many questions.



I don't like the "fetus is an object that just ceases to exist for a number of hours" very much, either, truth be told.

I mean, I do t want to cast a separate teleport spell for it

[SimonMoon6]

Here's my thought experiment:

If a druid who has hands turns into a bird, what happens to the hands? They become the equivalent body part of the bird, at the end of the wings presumably. The hands are not terminated. When the druid turns back into a human (or whatever), they have their hands back. But while they are a bird, they don't have human hands, they have bird body parts.

Assuming a fetus is to be considered part of the druid (and not its own separate entity), it would be like hands. The fetus would become the equivalent body part of a bird (a fertilized egg that has not yet been laid).

Then, to go into even more detail, we might consider that a human gestation normally takes nine months taking place inside the mother. Bird gestation takes place in the nest after the egg has been laid, within a time frame of 7 to 24 days depending on the species. (And I tried to find out more detail but this is a weird topic to try to Google.) So, presumably, a bird with a fertilized egg in it would be ready to lay it almost immediately? I don't know.

But if the egg was laid, there are a couple of options as to what happens next. Any part of a polymorphed creature that is separated from the creature returns to normal. So... yeah. The laid egg immediately becomes a prematurely born human. And its chances of survival are not good. However, if we don't want to go with what I think would be RAW, we could instead allow the wildshape effect to continue on the egg for as long as it continues on the druid. Then, we wait to see how long the wildshape effect lasts.

If the druid was 6 months pregnant at the time, she would be 2/3 of the way through the gestation period. If the bird species has a 9 day gestation period, then 2/3 of that time would be 6 days out of 9 days, leaving 3 days before the egg hatches. If the wildshape has not worn off by then, the egg hatches into the appropriate species. However, once the wildshape wears off, it wears off both the druid and the "separated part of the druid" (the bird that hatched from the egg), so the baby bird becomes a baby human.

Now, if the fetus is NOT considered to be a part of the druid's body, then wildshaping into a small bird is not recommended. If the fetus is its own living thing (and not equipment to be absorbed), then the druid explodes as the fetus does not change size while the druid shrinks to the size of a robin. You have one dead druid and one prematurely born fetus.

[Thurbane]

The only place this might be touched on is BoEF, or some other 3rd party source.

[Tzardok]

The only place this might be touched on is BoEF, or some other 3rd party source.

It was. Its answer was mentioned above: the fetus terminates if you shapechange into something that can't support it.

[Thurbane]

It was. Its answer was mentioned above: the fetus terminates if you shapechange into something that can't support it.

Oh, missed that; thanks.

[pabelfly]

I don't like the "fetus is an object that just ceases to exist for a number of hours" very much, either, truth be told.

There's no great answer for this problem, but having the foetus be on pause and continue growing later is better than accidentally terminating it, or having it be part of the new creature and/or continue to grow, regardless of the size or biological makeup of the creature.

[False God]

The wording in the SRD (http://dndsrd.net/druid.html) is as follows:


I find the idea that a living creature inside another living creature is an object worn or carried on the creature's body at least as baffling. I'm not in love with the implications either. So, let's turn the question around instead: a gnome druid wild shapes into a dire shark and uses Swallow Whole on an unarmed air genasi wearing a ring of acid resistance and a shirt of bones. What happens if the druid changes back to gnome form before the air genasi dies and is digested?

The gnome explodes in a horrifying manner, as, unlike a pregnancy of their own species, their body is not designed to hold a full-size humanoid.

It's worth noting that the answer here also depends on the sort of game you want to run. What I referred to as a "simple" answer is intended for a game where people want to include sexual activity and the consequences thereof, but not get super serious with it.

Being unable to wildshape is a fine answer and can be appropriate but to my mind is more useful as a storytelling element than a mechanical one.

Having the fetus wildshaped with you also works in my mind, and as soon as they are born are now a separate object and no longer subject to the wildshape magic(assuming they are born while you are in animal form) immediately un-wildshapes also works.

---
Lets also note that turning back is ending a magical effect, not engaging one.

Again, the answer depends on what sort of game you want. One of bleak horror gives you horrible answers. One of fun and shenanigans gives you funny answers. One of "We don't really care, just move along." gives you quick and simple answers.

[Crake]

Again, the answer depends on what sort of game you want. One of bleak horror gives you horrible answers. One of fun and shenanigans gives you funny answers. One of "We don't really care, just move along." gives you quick and simple answers.

An issue arises when you play different games with different themes inside the same setting, and you want consistency between games for the sake of the setting, so knowing what answer you as a DM want to use is useful. In a case where the answer doesn't match the theme of the game, it may just be better to avoid the pregnancy in the first place for such a game.

[False God]

An issue arises when you play different games with different themes inside the same setting, and you want consistency between games for the sake of the setting, so knowing what answer you as a DM want to use is useful. In a case where the answer doesn't match the theme of the game, it may just be better to avoid the pregnancy in the first place for such a game.

I personally consider this to be a DM trap. A DM should feel free, even within the same setting, to adjust the rules to better suit the needs of the game they're running. They should never feel bound to make the same ruling in this game as they did in another game simply because it happens to be the same setting. There's no need to even rationalize why the rules are different. The players in This Game want horror and despair. The players in That Game what beer-and-pretzels.

There are certainly excuses as to why things are different. "It's magic." "Druids are divine casters, blame the gods." "Someone is meddling with how magic in this area works." And so on, but I find this unnecessary. Further, a DM limiting themselves to "their answer" leaves them in a precarious position of not contemplating perfectly workable answers outside of their position. I always find myself wary of DMs who don't consider answers to problems outside what they've already decided the answer must be.

The answer most correctly is probably complex, where early-term shifting doesn't affect anything, but later-term shifting could be a more complex affair, with exceptions for certain species, plane-touched children making things better or worse, potentially getting stuck in animal form, and so on as is appropriate to the game at hand.

Because the game today is what matters. Not the game we played last time or the game we might play next time.

[Crake]

I personally consider this to be a DM trap. A DM should feel free, even within the same setting, to adjust the rules to better suit the needs of the game they're running. They should never feel bound to make the same ruling in this game as they did in another game simply because it happens to be the same setting. There's no need to even rationalize why the rules are different. The players in This Game want horror and despair. The players in That Game what beer-and-pretzels.

There are certainly excuses as to why things are different. "It's magic." "Druids are divine casters, blame the gods." "Someone is meddling with how magic in this area works." And so on, but I find this unnecessary. Further, a DM limiting themselves to "their answer" leaves them in a precarious position of not contemplating perfectly workable answers outside of their position. I always find myself wary of DMs who don't consider answers to problems outside what they've already decided the answer must be.

The answer most correctly is probably complex, where early-term shifting doesn't affect anything, but later-term shifting could be a more complex affair, with exceptions for certain species, plane-touched children making things better or worse, potentially getting stuck in animal form, and so on as is appropriate to the game at hand.

Because the game today is what matters. Not the game we played last time or the game we might play next time.

Yeah, I guess agree to disagree on that one. I as both a player and DM much prefer consistency overall than a whimsical DM who will make arbitrary judgements on an ephemeral notion of a particular game’s theme.

If the answer to a question doesnt match a theme, then it should just be avoided in that game altogether, not be adjusted at random to fit the theme.

[spectralphoenix]

I mean, at this point I'm pretty confident no one is going to come up with a book and page number that definitively resolves the issue one way or another. Any answer the DM comes up with is ultimately going to be something he made up, and no more 'correct' than the next person's answer. And if you must make up an answer , it might as well be whatever works best with the game.

That said, I think the author of Ranma 1/2 came up with an elegant solution when asked the shapeshifting-while-pregnant question.

I don't think about that, and neither should you.

[Crake]

I mean, at this point I'm pretty confident no one is going to come up with a book and page number that definitively resolves the issue one way or another. Any answer the DM comes up with is ultimately going to be something he made up, and no more 'correct' than the next person's answer. And if you must make up an answer , it might as well be whatever works best with the game.

I was talking about in the context of same DM, same players, multiple games, across one setting. Now, sure, something like THIS in particular is unlikely to come up more than once, but it comes down more to a philosophy on how you handle the rules for me.


That said, I think the author of Ranma 1/2 came up with an elegant solution when asked the shapeshifting-while-pregnant question.


I mean, I'd say just avoid getting characters pregnant in a dnd game for the most part, so the question never even comes up to begin with.

[False God]

Yeah, I guess agree to disagree on that one. I as both a player and DM much prefer consistency overall than a whimsical DM who will make arbitrary judgements on an ephemeral notion of a particular game’s theme.

If the answer to a question doesnt match a theme, then it should just be avoided in that game altogether, not be adjusted at random to fit the theme.

A lot of existing RAW answers don't fit the theme of a variety of completely playable and officially published games in D&D.

Suggesting that you should never make adjustments to the game and the answers it suggests to fit the kind of game you want to play is a little absurd in my mind.

So sure, agree to disagree.


I mean, I'd say just avoid getting characters pregnant in a dnd game for the most part, so the question never even comes up to begin with.

Yes, we heard. But when asked "What happens when..." it is rather useless to say "Don't include this content to begin with." Clearly the content is included, possibly wanted, and it may even be outside the askers control. Hence the question.

It isn't helpful.

[Crake]

A lot of existing RAW answers don't fit the theme of a variety of completely playable and officially published games in D&D.

Suggesting that you should never make adjustments to the game and the answers it suggests to fit the kind of game you want to play is a little absurd in my mind.

So sure, agree to disagree.

I'm not saying you should never adjust the rules, I'm saying when you decide how something should work, it should be consistent.


Yes, we heard. But when asked "What happens when..." it is rather useless to say "Don't include this content to begin with." Clearly the content is included, possibly wanted, and it may even be outside the askers control. Hence the question.

It isn't helpful.

Well, firstly, I already stated existing rules in a third party rules source that exists for this exact scenario, so I did my part in answering the "what happens when..." part. My addendum of "don't include this content to begin with" is an answer to the problem of "what if the answer doesn't match the game's theme"

[loky1109]

Druids are all about nature and life. I can't see one of their core class abilities being the cause of the termination of a pregnancy.
If the pregnancy is absorbed into their wildshape like a piece of gear, then I would rule that labour would be put on hold until they return to their base form...
That's why all druids are men. )

[aglondier]

That's why all druids are men. )

I guess that means you are totally unfamiliar with the concept of mpreg then...

[Batcathat]

New question: what happens if a male human druid turns into a male seahorse, becomes pregnant and turns back into a human? :smalltongue:

[Quertus]

If a Druid Wild Shapes into a Myconid and releases a cloud of spores, does it become a cloud of babies when he changes back?

… and then it rains babies. Now we know where “Evil Weather” comes from.

… and then the storks come, and collect the babies, and now we know the ancient Druid secret of how babies are made.


I as both a player and DM much prefer consistency overall than a whimsical DM who will make arbitrary judgements

Strongly agree.

That said, I’m fine with a GM changing the rules before the game starts for most any reason, including chasing a theme. And with the GM making a ruling on something where there aren’t clear rules

That said, are there rules a cover this, that a GM would be deviating from? If I’ve understood the thread thus far, the answer is “not in 1st party material”.

Ok, is there a logical consistency? If a Druid becomes a poisonous snake, and bites someone, what happens to the venom? If a 1-armed Druid becomes a bear, and loses the opposite front paw to a bear trap, then becomes a star fish, what happens? If a Druid with a full stomach becomes a humming bird, what happens?

For that last one, there’s no warnings requiring changing shape on an empty stomach, so your contents seemingly change with you.

But what counts as “you”? It doesn’t matter whether an egg counts as part of a Robin in this world or not, D&D has and is allowed to have its own rules for that.

But does it have such rules?

Well, by the theme of the rules, you cannot buff someone by calling them your mount, or by being swallowed by them - they are still a separate creature. So in the case of something living in your stomach, it won’t change with you.

So what happens? Well, by the theme of the rules, you can’t harm a creature by polymorphing it. So, by the theme of the rules, you can’t harm yourself or a creature you’ve swallowed whole through Druid powers.

But that doesn’t answer whether the baby / egg counts as part of the host, or as a separate creature. When teleporting a pregnant mother, is that 1 subject, or 2? Is the fetus subject to ESP, does a fetus need its own Mind Blank?

What about symbiotic or parasitic creatures, like gut worms, living grafts, etc? Do they turn invisible with their host? Do they teleport with their host? Do they benefit from the same casting of Haste?

Regardless, it seems that the most consistent answer is, either it counts as “you”, and changes with you, or counts as its own living thing, and therefore cannot be harmed by the effect.

As evocative as the “morning after shape change” is as a form of birth control, it just doesn’t match the theme of the existing rules.

That’s my take, at any rate.

[paladinn]

You know we're in trouble when a thread like this gets traction..

Only on GitP..

[loky1109]

About topic. I'd rule you just can't wild shape while pregnant.

[Quertus]

About topic. I'd rule you just can't wild shape while pregnant.

An at-home pregnancy test? What if you have worms, or a symbiote, or have swallowed something whole? How do these conditions interact with Teleport and Invisibility? What is the underlying logic for this decision?

[loky1109]

An at-home pregnancy test? What if you have worms, or a symbiote, or have swallowed something whole? How do these conditions interact with Teleport and Invisibility? What is the underlying logic for this decision?
Every human has about 3 kilos of bacteria inside.
Swallowed something is part of gear and teleport/invis works, swallowed somebody is different creature and teleport/invis doesn't work for it.
Symbionts are complicated, but they RAI looks like gear and this spells should work.

[daremetoidareyo]

Every human has about 3 kilos of bacteria inside.
Swallowed something is part of gear and teleport/invis works, swallowed somebody is different creature and teleport/invis doesn't work for it.
Symbionts are complicated, but they RAI looks like gear and this spells should work.

Yo do you think a bacteria has a ring slot?

[Maat Mons]

Regarding the “can’t Wild Shape while pregnant” answer, does that mean a Slaad can force a Wild-Shaped Druid back into his base form by implanting an egg in him?

[Metastachydium]

About topic. I'd rule you just can't wild shape while pregnant.


An at-home pregnancy test?

Yep. I prefer that to all the other options presented thus far.


Yo do you think a bacteria has a ring slot?

No such thing as *a bacteria; bacteria is the plural of bacterium. And I'd say no, but they should have a body slot at the very least.


Regarding the “can’t Wild Shape while pregnant” answer, does that mean a Slaad can force a Wild-Shaped Druid back into his base form by implanting an egg in him?

I'm not sure I'd describe what happens with slaad-infected people as pregnancy, you know.

[Batcathat]

Regarding the “can’t Wild Shape while pregnant” answer, does that mean a Slaad can force a Wild-Shaped Druid back into his base form by implanting an egg in him?

If pregnancy prevents wildshaping, wouldn't "impregnating" the druid while wildshaped lock them into that form until everything is... resolved?

[loky1109]

Regarding the “can’t Wild Shape while pregnant” answer, does that mean a Slaad can force a Wild-Shaped Druid back into his base form by implanting an egg in him?
Or made druid unable to change back.
But in this case I say: No, it's disease.


Yo do you think a bacteria has a ring slot?
I don't think bacteria are creatures in D&D terms.

[Crake]

[…] or counts as its own living thing, and therefore cannot be harmed by the effect.

As evocative as the “morning after shape change” is as a form of birth control, it just doesn’t match the theme of the existing rules.

That’s my take, at any rate.

Maybe it cant be harmed directly, but it could still be harmed by simply not having an environment that can support it. If the foetus doesnt have a womb to survive in, and it what, gets ejected out into the space next to the druid, its still gonna die the same way a fish out of water would.