Can I Get Some Advice? (D&D, Cyberpunk 2020 users welcome)

[Tevo77777]

Hello,

As a tiny fraction of you possibly know, I have my own rule system and rule set. I am bringing this up because I would like advice. I have a limited amount of time to work on the system more and read up on other systems (As all the "designers" tell me to do, writers tell me I should read more to be better at writing, ect ect). As such I've been looking over some stuff and trying to consider some additions.

I use a class based system, I don't have archetypes, I do have alternate versions of classes. I am considering porting or having an analog to a Cyberpunk 2020 "role"/class, but I am not sure. I think I will provide an example of my previous work... as context, before I ask my question.

Class Example, "Mouthpiece"

Cleric/Bard amounts of HP (Towards the bottom, but not the lowest possible). No weapon proficiencies, maximum starting skills (4), gets 8 feats to balance them against the strongest classes, has feats only they can access (Which involve assembling crowds, recruiting people, and so on).

Silver Tongue, 1st Level:
Your character gets +2 to Persuasion checks, and gains two extra common languages of their choice.

Your Face, Your Tone, 3rd level:
Your character gets +2 to Insight, all critical fails result in you not having an opinion or being unsure. They have a +1 bonus to Wisdom Saves, against being seduced or manipulated.

Overall, it's like a Cyberpunk 2020 "Rockerboy" or a D&D Bard which lacks the ability to buff others by singing / spellcasting. This is very much a "Face" class.

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Question Time:

Okay, so I want to do a class that behaves like a working, functional version of the "Cop" from Cyberpunk 2020. I'm considering having them be an alternate version of the "Paramilitary" class, which is like a Fighter.

Minor Question 1: Would having a class based around having a bonus to Intimidate be workable? Especially with "Interrogation" being lumped into Intimidate? I'm worried that bonuses to Insight or Investigation will make them too much like the "Analyst" alternate class (Which is a skill monkey, knowledge heavy, high insight, high Wis, high Int Class).

Minor Question 2: In Cyberpunk 2020, it says a "rockerboy" role could also be a rapper, a political activist, or even someone like JFK... Could this new Cop class be widened out more, beyond the scope of even private detectives (People sorta dealing with law enforcement?). Would it include Drill Sergeants, or even Commissars? Just anyone whose really intimidating and trained, focused on that?

Further Context:

I want players to be able to use some combination of classes, feats, and taking skills... to somehow fit basically any playstyle, including those possible in other systems that are set in modern, sci-fi or fantasy settings. We have the Field Medic class (Which at high levels does surgery), the Smuggler class, the Technician class, ect ect.

I feel like the Field Medic is laser focused on one single thing, but that one thing is so important and includes Craft (Pharmaceutical). Does Intimidation with Interrogation have that much use?

[Anonymouswizard]

Okay, first off, Cyberpunk 2020 roles do in essence two things:
-Grant one special ability
-Detsrmine where the majority of your starting skill points go

Which is a very different thing to D&D classes, if anything it's closer to a World of Darkness splat (which primarily funnel you towards a certain powerset). Thus it's not really possible to translate it directly to a D&D class structure, because you only really have one power.

On the other hand it's totally possible to create a D&D style Police Officer class. I'm imagining something like the Marshal, with an Aura of Authority ability letting them direct allied NPCs more efficiently and the ability to mess with enemy action economy. Play around with the idea and don't be afraid to get it wrong a few times.

As to character splats being more focused than others, it can be an issue. Vampire the Masquerade ran into an issue where sone of the Clans tended to get a wide variety of concepts, whereas others would be tied to rather specific concepts (probably the worst in this case we're the Settites [Egyptian corruption priests], Giovanni [necromantic bankers], and Tzimisce [Necroscope: the Clan]). Part of this was focus on signature powers rather than just using the damn basic Disciplines, and it wasn't inherently bad, but a lot of what made it work was the strongly tied system and setting.

I'd highly suggest seeing if you can make Field Medic an optional specialised version of another class. Specialisation tends to feel better when it's not the default.

[Tevo77777]

Okay, first off, Cyberpunk 2020 roles do in essence two things:
-Grant one special ability
-Detsrmine where the majority of your starting skill points go

Which is a very different thing to D&D classes, if anything it's closer to a World of Darkness splat (which primarily funnel you towards a certain powerset). Thus it's not really possible to translate it directly to a D&D class structure, because you only really have one power.

Yeah, but in D-20 Modern and some of the older versions of D&D, classes were more focused on a small set of things (HP to Skills ratio being one).

Fundamentally, you'd have to have a box of rocks for a head to not have your Solo character be the combat guy, or have your Rockerboy be the face, or have your Corporate or Fence be the materials/resources people.

Same with a lot of the D-20 Modern, D&D classes.



On the other hand it's totally possible to create a D&D style Police Officer class. I'm imagining something like the Marshal, with an Aura of Authority ability letting them direct allied NPCs more efficiently and the ability to mess with enemy action economy. Play around with the idea and don't be afraid to get it wrong a few times.

As to character splats being more focused than others, it can be an issue. Vampire the Masquerade ran into an issue where sone of the Clans tended to get a wide variety of concepts, whereas others would be tied to rather specific concepts (probably the worst in this case we're the Settites [Egyptian corruption priests], Giovanni [necromantic bankers], and Tzimisce [Necroscope: the Clan]). Part of this was focus on signature powers rather than just using the damn basic Disciplines, and it wasn't inherently bad, but a lot of what made it work was the strongly tied system and setting.

You see, I thought that if I provided an example of one class, people wouldn't get hyper bogged down reading a ton of stuff.... but they would have an idea what this new class has to be balanced against.

But what your are proposing, is hyper imbalanced. Even more so considering that this new class needs to be a combat class, it can't have a bunch of feats or extra good class feats.

At the same time, that sounds like magic. Magic is off the table for classes.

You also didn't answer my little questions. Is Intimidation not enough, is that what you are saying?

Is the Mouthpiece class really that good that something else needs what looks like magic to match it?



I'd highly suggest seeing if you can make Field Medic an optional specialised version of another class. Specialisation tends to feel better when it's not the default.

It already is. It's the "Recon" class (Wisdom and Dex, has bonuses to medicine and aimed fire, gets scope proficiency, bonus to detecting things), but without the sniping and laser focused more. I kept seeing similar classes in all kinds of systems, and I realized that someone would want to play that kind of character.

It's one of them most popular classes, period. I have it set with the other main options because it gets picked so much.

It's not exactly the same as the Recon but without the sniping, as it has worse HP and more skills, which is necessary.

[BRC]

Question Time:

Okay, so I want to do a class that behaves like a working, functional version of the "Cop" from Cyberpunk 2020. I'm considering having them be an alternate version of the "Paramilitary" class, which is like a Fighter.

Minor Question 1: Would having a class based around having a bonus to Intimidate be workable? Especially with "Interrogation" being lumped into Intimidate? I'm worried that bonuses to Insight or Investigation will make them too much like the "Analyst" alternate class (Which is a skill monkey, knowledge heavy, high insight, high Wis, high Int Class).

Minor Question 2: In Cyberpunk 2020, it says a "rockerboy" role could also be a rapper, a political activist, or even someone like JFK... Could this new Cop class be widened out more, beyond the scope of even private detectives (People sorta dealing with law enforcement?). Would it include Drill Sergeants, or even Commissars? Just anyone whose really intimidating and trained, focused on that?

So the most important question here is "What is your game about?"

The degree to which a class can specialize in one field is dependent on if the game includes enough depth and uses in that area to deserve a specialization. If your game features a lot of depth for getting information, then, yes, an "intimidate/interrogate" style social investigator CAN work alongside an analyst style character. If your game's uses for Intimidation roughly line up to, say, D&D 5e, I would say no.



But, assuming your game includes enough space for an intimidation focused investigator, what I would do is strip out the flavor and focus on the mechanics of how the class and ability work, then see what flavors that class can match.

Let's call this flavorless class The Intimidator, and come up with a few features. Making random assumptions about the actual mechanics of your system here.

I think a good approach for building a skill-specialist class is to make them Better than others at their specialty, make them more Flexible with their specialty, and finally make sure they can use their specialty in a unique way.

First:
Scary: Bonus to Intimidation

Second, let's expand the use of Intimidation beyond what other characters can do, I'll come up with two flavors here:

Mechanic: Authority. Choose the source of your character's Authority, whether that is local law enforcement, a criminal syndicate, or even a corporation. When dealing with characters to whom your Authority applies, you may either take an additional bonus to Intimidate, OR use intimidation in place of Deception, Insight, or Persuasion.

Alternative: Kind Words, Cold Eyes: You may forgo your "Scary" bonus, in exchange, so long as you succeed on an intimidation check, the target's opinion of you is not lowered as normal.

Finally, you mention this is a combat class, let's throw in a combat-themed ability, let's also give this class something Unique that only they can do.

Stay Down: After you land a hit, you may make a free Intimidate check against that target, if this succeeds, they receive [penalty appropriate to your system]


Using my above examples, you could build this to represent a cop or military officer, it doesn't work very well for a PI unless they're beating information out of people. A PI might work better as a general "Social investigator" to match the Analyst's "Data-based investigator" than as an intimidation based class.

But all this assumes a cyberpunk-like setup where "Good at getting info by scaring people" is a useful enough role to deserve specialization.

[Tevo77777]

So the most important question here is "What is your game about?"

The degree to which a class can specialize in one field is dependent on if the game includes enough depth and uses in that area to deserve a specialization. If your game features a lot of depth for getting information, then, yes, an "intimidate/interrogate" style social investigator CAN work alongside an analyst style character. If your game's uses for Intimidation roughly line up to, say, D&D 5e, I would say no.

Intimidate / Interrogate doesn't require a social investigator. There already is an feat, which involves intimidating people into compliance, which allows the ability to be used in situations it wouldn't normally be. I wanted it to capture some of the feeling of playing the old 2000 something Judge Dredd video game and you press the "Challenge Button" (You demand they surrender), but even more like when you play SWAT 4 and do a similar function.

Normally, you have to point a weapon at someone and take up a whole action, to intimidate one person into surrendering during combat.

This feat lets you use this ability on up to two people, who can't see you, but you can see. It also makes it a quick action. I'm considering widening the flexibility of how it works a bit in the future, and writing down or eyeballing modifiers for how hurt or startled the targets are.

Intimidate has the Interrogation function in D-20 Modern, but it also also is used for the "Order Function" which is used in some of the provided third party rule D-20 wargaming systems. It has a function of scaring units enough that they are more scared of you, than whatever has them temporarily frozen (Possibly the enemy or gunfire). This function could be widened to include PCs? There are plenty of things that cause Wisdom Saves.

Each of these functions almost seems to ask for a different build, however. The first demands a combat class, likely putting points in Str (I let Str boost Intimidation). The second says scary beatcop or SWAT guy less...and scary Detective more...and the third one just says "Scary Drill Sergeant" but if it's used on PCs it becomes scary beatcop team leader.



But, assuming your game includes enough space for an intimidation focused investigator, what I would do is strip out the flavor and focus on the mechanics of how the class and ability work, then see what flavors that class can match.

Sounds about right.



Let's call this flavorless class The Intimidator, and come up with a few features. Making random assumptions about the actual mechanics of your system here.

I think a good approach for building a skill-specialist class is to make them Better than others at their specialty, make them more Flexible with their specialty, and finally make sure they can use their specialty in a unique way.

First:
Scary: Bonus to Intimidation

Second, let's expand the use of Intimidation beyond what other characters can do, I'll come up with two flavors here:

Mechanic: Authority. Choose the source of your character's Authority, whether that is local law enforcement, a criminal syndicate, or even a corporation. When dealing with characters to whom your Authority applies, you may either take an additional bonus to Intimidate, OR use intimidation in place of Deception, Insight, or Persuasion.

I just remembered. In a Palladium RPG called "Systems Failure". It has a "Peacekeeper" (https://imgur.com/a/wsKFD9t) class which is like a "Lawmaker of the wastes" type of thing.

So I was thinking the person doesn't have an organization that gives them their capabilities, but like they learned their abilities within an organization. So, they don't walk out and flash their badge, they just learned the art of staring someone down and being scary while being on the force ten years.

Second, I am considering having "synergy" where having a plus of +4 to Intimidation, it gives you a +2 to those three other skills. I think substitution might be too overpowered.

Cyberpunk 2020 basically gave you Intimidation and then Authority, which was Intimidation but better... stacked on top of Authority. That's a bit too crazy, but I'm considering now... mixing that idea and your idea.....

Like maybe "Friendly Interrogation" (more like Debriefing) gets boosted by Intimidation, or maybe you can put the fear of God into people...and they starting coughing everything up (Replacing Insight) or they just lie badly and take a penalty to Deception? (Which is sorta like a bonus to your Insight).



Alternative: Kind Words, Cold Eyes: You may forgo your "Scary" bonus, in exchange, so long as you succeed on an intimidation check, the target's opinion of you is not lowered as normal.

Yeah, I'm having ideas about a friendlier function of Intimidation.... Like besides being able to yell at people to snap out of it and stuff like that.... What if characters that are friendly or helpful like.... feel less afraid or feel more brave standing around you? I'm thinking your character is so scary, but isn't a threat to the character, so they aren't scared of the "Scariest thing in the room".

Or maybe the character is an example to others?

I feel like if I consider all these options, I'll have to make them options and thus this class will have branching patches... or feats only it and a select few other build orders can tap into.



Finally, you mention this is a combat class, let's throw in a combat-themed ability, let's also give this class something Unique that only they can do.

Stay Down: After you land a hit, you may make a free Intimidate check against that target, if this succeeds, they receive [penalty appropriate to your system]

I haven't written it down, but that is how the SWAT 4 function works. Every single possible attack (Getting shot, getting hit, getting tazed, getting peppersprayed) lowers the bravery of the target by a set (Specific amount).

I'm considering adjusting the feat I mentioned at the start, so that you're able to use it again on a target (On your next turn of course), if they were injured or something like that. I'm also considering letting the feat give you the ability to do Intimidate as part of "Overwatch", so you can go "If anyone comes through that door, I will taze them and then Intimidate them".



Using my above examples, you could build this to represent a cop or military officer, it doesn't work very well for a PI unless they're beating information out of people. A PI might work better as a general "Social investigator" to match the Analyst's "Data-based investigator" than as an intimidation based class.

But all this assumes a cyberpunk-like setup where "Good at getting info by scaring people" is a useful enough role to deserve specialization.

I mean, does the "Mouthpiece class" I detailed a few posts ago, not sound like a Social Investigator? The Analyst isn't as good at Insight, but is way better at Investigation. Also, you can use Persuasion for "Gather Information" checks. That was a separate skill, but it isn't anymore (Because 5e).

Your suggests have made it a lot easier to think about this.... I think I can get together the framework for a class... but now I'm going to have to think about what to keep...what to make an optional branching path...what to make feats that only a few select build orders can take..... I think I should certainly provide some colored beta-testing text for the Intimidation feat.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Assuming you're talking about D&D style classes, where they determine most of the stuff on your character sheet and are supposed to function without multiclassing...


Minor Question 1: Would having a class based around having a bonus to Intimidate be workable? Especially with "Interrogation" being lumped into Intimidate? I'm worried that bonuses to Insight or Investigation will make them too much like the "Analyst" alternate class (Which is a skill monkey, knowledge heavy, high insight, high Wis, high Int Class).
No, or at least you shouldn't-- "being scary" is a specialization, not a class. A good base class is one that represents a broad identity while leaving plenty of space for the player to define the specifics of their character; it gives you a general sense of what role you'd be playing in different situations.

That said, "Cop" would make a fine class. Presumably you'd be a sort of anti-Rogue-- a secondary combatant with a focus on investigation, observation, and protection. Depending on your build, you could wind up as a more combat-focused SWAT officer, an investigation-focused CSI tech, an insight-focused detective, maybe even a deceptive undercover operative.


Minor Question 2: In Cyberpunk 2020, it says a "rockerboy" role could also be a rapper, a political activist, or even someone like JFK... Could this new Cop class be widened out more, beyond the scope of even private detectives (People sorta dealing with law enforcement?). Would it include Drill Sergeants, or even Commissars? Just anyone whose really intimidating and trained, focused on that?

"Intimidation" might not be enough to build a class around, but "force of personality" sure is.


I feel like the Field Medic is laser focused on one single thing, but that one thing is so important and includes Craft (Pharmaceutical). Does Intimidation with Interrogation have that much use?

Field Medic is laser-focused on a combat role, which is typically a much more time-consuming and mechanically deep part of the game than social interactions. It's also one that I'd argue shouldn't be a base class either, since it doesn't really say anything than "hi, I'm the healer."

[BRC]

Deadlands classic (never played the Savage Worlds version) has a skill called "leadership" that can be used to snap people out of things, as well as to coordinate efforts (Represented mechanically by having allies trade spots in initative. it's a little more complex than that due to deadlands's card-based initiative system, but). That might be a good model for what you're looking for. I'm not actually familiar with the Cyberpunk "Cop" archetype, but from what you're describing it sounds like the flavor you care about is more an imposing squad leader than an investigator.

(One thing I like about Deadlands' approach to leadership is that it's not really playing into the "Tactical Genius" thing, a character using Leadership isn't coming up with brilliant plans necessarily so much as they're just keeping a cool head and shouting over the fray of battle to keep people coordinated).


We're getting a bit off "Intimidate" as an appropriate description for a skill, but I think there's some potential there. For now I'll call it "Being good at shouting"

Potential friendly uses for Being Good At Shouting.

Bonus against fear for your allies so long as you are not afraid.

Initiative manipulation, letting allies go faster as you call out opportunities to act.

Providing allies bonuses against friendly-fire AoEs, as you're able to coordinate everybody.

[Tevo77777]

Assuming you're talking about D&D style classes, where they determine most of the stuff on your character sheet and are supposed to function without multiclassing...

No, or at least you shouldn't-- "being scary" is a specialization, not a class. A good base class is one that represents a broad identity while leaving plenty of space for the player to define the specifics of their character; it gives you a general sense of what role you'd be playing in different situations.

That said, "Cop" would make a fine class. Presumably you'd be a sort of anti-Rogue-- a secondary combatant with a focus on investigation, observation, and protection. Depending on your build, you could wind up as a more combat-focused SWAT officer, an investigation-focused CSI tech, an insight-focused detective, maybe even a deceptive undercover operative.

These are all separate classes. We have a SWAT class, we have Analyst (Lots of Knowledge, Synergy, Insight, Investigation), Technician (If we want high knowledge and high crafting), and uhhh... I think there are feats and skill options for pretending to be someone else... Any of the skill monkey classes might be able to opt for that.

This is mostly because three of these classes share bonuses to almost the same set of skills, but they also have a few skills or abilities only they get bonuses too. I suppose you could technically say they're all alternate versions of each other, or branching paths of the same class idea.

Except the SWAT class.... That needs HP, Weapon Pros, and is less skill dependent. The other three classes do not.



"Intimidation" might not be enough to build a class around, but "force of personality" sure is.

Field Medic is laser-focused on a combat role, which is typically a much more time-consuming and mechanically deep part of the game than social interactions. It's also one that I'd argue shouldn't be a base class either, since it doesn't really say anything than "hi, I'm the healer."]


And yet it's more popular than the Recon class, which is more flexible. The Recon class once was the most popular class period.

I don't know what to tell you.


Deadlands classic (never played the Savage Worlds version) has a skill called "leadership" that can be used to snap people out of things, as well as to coordinate efforts (Represented mechanically by having allies trade spots in initative. it's a little more complex than that due to deadlands's card-based initiative system, but). That might be a good model for what you're looking for. I'm not actually familiar with the Cyberpunk "Cop" archetype, but from what you're describing it sounds like the flavor you care about is more an imposing squad leader than an investigator.

(One thing I like about Deadlands' approach to leadership is that it's not really playing into the "Tactical Genius" thing, a character using Leadership isn't coming up with brilliant plans necessarily so much as they're just keeping a cool head and shouting over the fray of battle to keep people coordinated).

"Tactical Aid [Only Paramilitary, Survivalist, Mouthpiece, and Smuggler]: (Keep in mind that alternate classes get access to the same feats as the main class, so that means Analyst gets access to this, so does the SWAT Class)

The hero can use their knowledge of tactics to direct their allies in combat. As a full-round action, up to four allies per turn (Including self, but not included towards counting) within range of their voice or sight (Or can hear them via radio) gain a competence bonus on Attack Rolls or an AC/Dex Save (Hero’s choice).

This bonus is equal to the Hero’s Int bonus and lasts for half the Hero’s level in rounds, rounding down. As an attack action, this bonus only applies to one ally, not self.
This bonus also stacks with a proper Knowledge (Tactics) or Military Tactics check."

So this is a person shouting over the fray of battle, but they are kinda a tactical genius.

Having a half-feat that lets a person trade spots in Initiative is really good. There are classes and feats and half feats that boost Initiative too.

Ooh ooh, the heaviest weapons massively drag down your Initiative, so this half feat could be used by any number of possible build orders to coordinate the character with the sniper rifle or the Machine Gun.

I'm thinking it logically should take half or a whole turn however? Maybe it stacks on top of the abilities for "Tactical Aid", but those bonuses only apply for one person? So like, you give up half your turn to let have a whole turn on your Initiative AND they get a bonus to hit.

"Directing Fire" is kinda a feature in some war games and in real life, it's pretty cool.

To make Intimidate more flexible, maybe this special "cop" class lets you replace it with "Leadership" which is more flexible?



We're getting a bit off "Intimidate" as an appropriate description for a skill, but I think there's some potential there. For now I'll call it "Being good at shouting"

Potential friendly uses for Being Good At Shouting.

Bonus against fear for your allies so long as you are not afraid.

Initiative manipulation, letting allies go faster as you call out opportunities to act.

Providing allies bonuses against friendly-fire AoEs, as you're able to coordinate everybody.

Oh, that's good. The way I do things, is if you crit fail an attack and an ally is in line of fire, you might hit them. There is also the chance that you describe what you do when you do "Overwatch" (It's like holding an action or something like that), and someone accidently triggers your Overwatch and gets shot.

That could easily be lumped in for this "cop" class and it wouldn't be too expensive either.

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Current Ideas so far

Boost to Intimidation, Intimidation is replaced with Leadership sometimes, Leadership is more flexible.

Initiative swapping is retained in house, reducing friendly fire is retained in house, reducing fear is in house (Uses Leadership).

Widening how you get people to surrender, remains an outside feat. The new half-feat about initiative swapping will still exist, but it will be mandatory for this new class.

There is a third party book where you can roll an "Order" (Uses Intimidate) DC of 15 to remove the status of "Mental Fatigue" (Which I ported over and have). I'm thinking Leadership should be the means to do this.

[BRC]

If replacing skills is on the table, maybe replace "Intimdate" with a "Presence" or "Authority" skill, which encompasses both Intimidate and Leadership. Maybe "Command" works as the skill name? I don't know.

I don't know your mechanics, but my instinct is to split this sort of "Field commander" character into two aspects, which can be potentially combined.


Tactical Aid: Int-based, provides bonuses

Coordination: Leadership Based, manipulates Initiative.

And build both sides as half-turns (if that's a thing), so you can have a character who does both each turn (Pulling allies to their initative and providing them bonuses), with the two abilities standing on their own, but slotting together nicely to make an effective turn. Alternatively, you can build a character that only uses one part of the package, if your grizzled Sargent doesn't necessarily have the int score for tactical aid, but is good at keeping the squad moving and fighting together (Or, alternatively, if you've got somethign closer to a strategist than a leader, but that seems less common).

[Tevo77777]

If replacing skills is on the table, maybe replace "Intimdate" with a "Presence" or "Authority" skill, which encompasses both Intimidate and Leadership. Maybe "Command" works as the skill name? I don't know.

I think Presence could work, so long as I tell myself it sounds nothing like the Presence of a Performer or anything like that.

au·thor·i·ty
/əˈTHôrədē/
Learn to pronounce
noun
1.
the power or right to give orders, make decisions, and enforce obedience.

Sounds perfect, this works out really well. The power or right is like a shadow cast on a wall, something believed in and thus it exists.