Does Hex Work Like This?

[SociopathFriend]

I have a question for Hex- though I think Bestow Curse has a similar line that would raise the same question.


You place a curse on a creature that you can see within range. Until the spell ends, you deal an extra 1d6 necrotic damage to the target whenever you hit it with an attack. Blah blah blah.

If the target drops to 0 hit points before this spell ends, you can use a bonus action on a subsequent turn of yours to curse a new creature.

When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd or 4th level, you can maintain your concentration on the spell for up to 8 hours. When you use a spell slot of 5th level or higher, you can maintain your concentration on the spell for up to 24 hours.

But something I've never considered until a few weeks ago- does Hex simply stay 'on' after casting it so long as you concentrate?

Like say you cast Hex in a fight that lasts for 10 rounds- 1 minute. With a 3rd level spell slot- that leaves you 7 hours and 59 minutes. So long as you don't lose concentration- does nothing stop you from assigning the Hex to someone else in that time period an hour or two later?

Can you even Short Rest and keep concentration going?

[PhoenixPhyre]

I have a question for Hex- though I think Bestow Curse has a similar line that would raise the same question.



But something I've never considered until a few weeks ago- does Hex simply stay 'on' after casting it so long as you concentrate?

Like say you cast Hex in a fight that lasts for 10 rounds- 1 minute. With a 3rd level spell slot- that leaves you 7 hours and 59 minutes. So long as you don't lose concentration- does nothing stop you from assigning the Hex to someone else in that time period an hour or two later?

Can you even Short Rest and keep concentration going?

Yes and yes. You don't have to move it immediately. Otherwise that duration would be useless.

[Psyren]

You don't have to reassign it immediately after your target dies, you can concentrate on it for the full duration even if there is a big gap between your last target and your next one.

[sithlordnergal]

Mmm, I can remember when the answer to this would be "Unsure, you might need to transfer it immediately". Luckily things have been clarified, you can concentrate on it all day long. Even if you short rest

[MrStabby]

1) Yes it stays on as long as you concentrate.

2) A short rest should be: "A short rest is a period of downtime, at least 1 hour long, during which a character does nothing more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds." Ask your DM if they consider concentrating on a spell to be more or less strenuous than reading. If concentrating is more strenuous than reading in their eyes, you will be unable to rest whilst concentrating.

[SociopathFriend]

Mmm, I can remember when the answer to this would be "Unsure, you might need to transfer it immediately". Luckily things have been clarified, you can concentrate on it all day long. Even if you short rest

If I may ask- where is that clarified?

[Samayu]

Note that the target has to drop to zero hp before you can move it. If the hexed one does not, you can't move it. You can only drop it and recast if you want to hex somebody else.

So here's the tricky part - if the target drops to zero, but then goes back to a positive number of hit points, can you still move it? I think most GM's would only let you move it if the target is at 0 hp or dead. Fortunately, most enemies die when they hit zero.

[sithlordnergal]

If I may ask- where is that clarified?

If I remember correctly, it was in an errata and Sage Advice.

[Witty Username]

huh, HP to 0 is a requirement to move the hex, so if an enemy just books it when they realized they have been cursed, you can't move the hex. I will file that away in case it ever actually comes up.

[Psyren]

huh, HP to 0 is a requirement to move the hex, so if an enemy just books it when they realized they have been cursed, you can't move the hex. I will file that away in case it ever actually comes up.

That's still a win for the party - you take a creature out of the fight entirely with a 1st level slot and no save or condition. That's better than Hold Person Monster. If I were the player I'd be pretty happy at this result.

[Unoriginal]

But something I've never considered until a few weeks ago- does Hex simply stay 'on' after casting it so long as you concentrate?

Indeed.



Can you even Short Rest and keep concentration going?

I wouldn't allow it as a DM. Rest requires you to rest, concentrating isn't restful.

[da newt]

"Quote Originally Posted by SociopathFriend View Post
Can you even Short Rest and keep concentration going?
I wouldn't allow it as a DM. Rest requires you to rest, concentrating isn't restful."

I think that's a house ruling not RAW. You can't long rest while concentrating. I'd have to look it up to verify though ...

[MrStabby]

"Quote Originally Posted by SociopathFriend View Post
Can you even Short Rest and keep concentration going?
I wouldn't allow it as a DM. Rest requires you to rest, concentrating isn't restful."

I think that's a house ruling not RAW. You can't long rest while concentrating. I'd have to look it up to verify though ...

I have never seen any RAW on whether concentrating is harder than reading, so I would agree that it isn't RAW but only as there is no Rule for this to agree or disagree with. It is absolutely a ruling a DM would make, but no more or less so than any ruling to the contrary.

[Tanarii]

Never had a DM that denied retaining concentration on a short rest. That would make the extended time pointless.

You should be able to concentrate as long as you don't become unconscious. Which means a long rest, with the updated Xan rules that clarifies natural sleep causes the unconscious condition.

[Unoriginal]

I think that's a house ruling not RAW.

Indeed, it's my house rule.


Never had a DM that denied retaining concentration on a short rest. That would make the extended time pointless.

IMO, the point of the extended time is to adventure with the spell effect going on.

[Tanarii]

IMO, the point of the extended time is to adventure with the spell effect going on.
Which you cannot do if a Short Rest ends it.

[Chronos]

Some warlocks have been known to start their day by Hexing some rat or bug or something, squishing it, and then immediately taking a short rest. That way, they can still transfer the Hex to the next enemy they meet, but they have the spell slot back (and they also don't have to actually cast the spell again, which can be useful for hiding components, and for combining it with a non-cantrip spell on the action).

This is thematic and appropriate, for some alignments, patrons, etc., but not so much for others. Personally, my thought is that it's either a reasonable thing to allow power-wise, or it's not. If it's reasonable power-wise, then the DM ought to just allow that effect without needing to sacrifice a rat. If it's not reasonable power-wise, then the DM should houserule to prevent it, for all warlocks.

[MrStabby]

Which you cannot do if a Short Rest ends it.

Well yes, but just imagine a world where an up-cast first level spell from a 5th level spell slot wasn't as powerful as a 5th level spell?

Imagine a world where burning hands cast from a 3rd level slot wasn't as good as fireball.

The marginal value of a spell dropping off with upcasting is possibly a legitimate concern for class design, but as it is such a common feature I don't think it helpful to use it as a guide to suggest what rullings were intended to be made, or should be made.

[Skrum]

I wouldn't allow it as a DM. Rest requires you to rest, concentrating isn't restful.

Why do you hate warlocks. Auto-upcasts is supposed to be where they get value, because they otherwise have an amount of spell slots that makes them nearly useless.

[Psyren]

I'd rather give them an extra spell slot than all these rest-casting shenanigans personally.

[Unoriginal]

Which you cannot do if a Short Rest ends it.

Of course you can. You may not want to take a short rest, but you can adventure no problem.


Adventuring while your spells are active isn't an outlandish concept.



Why do you hate warlocks.


On the contrary, I like Warlocks quite a bit.



Auto-upcasts is supposed to be where they get value, because they otherwise have an amount of spell slots that makes them nearly useless.

Yes, and? I don't see what it has to do with this conversation.


I'd rather give them an extra spell slot than all these rest-casting shenanigans personally.

And I'd rather tell them "no", if the "them" in question is "players who think attempting shenanigans is a thing they should do".



This is thematic and appropriate, for some alignments, patrons, etc., but not so much for others. Personally, my thought is that it's either a reasonable thing to allow power-wise, or it's not. If it's reasonable power-wise, then the DM ought to just allow that effect without needing to sacrifice a rat. If it's not reasonable power-wise, then the DM should houserule to prevent it, for all warlocks.

It's not a question of power, it's a question of principles.

Players shouldn't be attempting to exact-words-arguing their way into the DM granting the character more power. It's a toxic mentality and a fun-cancelling behavior, at least as far as I'm concerned.


Of course, a *player character* can try to exact-words-arguing their way into a NPC granting said character more power. With all the associated consequences, both positive, negative, neither and just plain weird, that can happen in-world when a mortal tries that.

[Tanarii]

Well yes, but just imagine a world where an up-cast first level spell from a 5th level spell slot wasn't as powerful as a 5th level spell?Imagine a world where upcasting a spell isn't pointless.


Of course you can. You may not want to take a short rest, but you can adventure no problem.Not unless you're doing a 5MWD or using the optional gritty realism resting rules. Otherwise you're gonna need a short rest.

[Psyren]

And I'd rather tell them "no", if the "them" in question is "players who think attempting shenanigans is a thing they should do".

I'm not opposed to that either, but if the player isn't having fun with the number of slots they get I think that's the root of the issue - that's all I'm saying. Which can be exacerbated under some conditions, e.g. the warlock being the only caster in the party.

[Unoriginal]

Otherwise you're gonna need a short rest.

Why would you automatically need a short rest?


You cast a spell you want to keep ongoing, you keep adventuring. I honestly fail to see the problem with the concept.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Why would you automatically need a short rest?


You cast a spell you want to keep ongoing, you keep adventuring. I honestly fail to see the problem with the concept.

Hey man, I'm the magic-hater around here and I think that's a bit too far. More precisely, it ends up hurting the ones who need short rests the most and then can't even benefit from them fully because they have to sacrifice their extended features to take one. Not a fan.

[Skrum]

Why would you automatically need a short rest?


You cast a spell you want to keep ongoing, you keep adventuring. I honestly fail to see the problem with the concept.

Warlocks have *two* spell slots/SR until 11th level. You're saying that if they want Hex to remain active, they need to spend *half* of their slots on Hex, no matter what, despite it automatically lasting for 8 hours for them once they hit 5th. The upcast duration is why a warlock would bother with something like hex to begin with.

Concentration is the limiting factor here. Not only do they need to think about concentration checks when taking damage, they need to not cast any other concentration spells, like Hypnotic Pattern. IMO, you are "balancing" something that the game already accounts for, thus needlessly nerfing a class that really does not need to be nerfed.

[Unoriginal]

Hey man, I'm the magic-hater around here and I think that's a bit too far. More precisely, it ends up hurting the ones who need short rests the most and then can't even benefit from them fully because they have to sacrifice their extended features to take one. Not a fan.

I don't get it.

Long-rest-depending class casts concentration spell, the group decides it's time to short rest for X reason, spell ends with the short rest. Spell slot is spent.

Short-rest-depending class casts concentration spell, he group decides it's time to short rest for X reason, spell ends with the short rest. Spell slot is spent, but they just got all of their spell slots.

Seems to me the Short-rest-depending classes are the ones benefiting the most from taking the short rest.


Warlocks have *two* spell slots/SR until 11th level. You're saying that if they want Hex to remain active, they need to spend *half* of their slots on Hex, no matter what, despite it automatically lasting for 8 hours for them once they hit 5th. The upcast duration is why a warlock would bother with something like hex to begin with.

So just to be clear we're all on the same page: you consider that Hex is utterly worthless unless the Warlock gets to have it ongoing AND all of their spell slots at the same time?

[JNAProductions]

Can you name another concentration spell that lasts more than an hour?

[Skrum]

So just to be clear we're all on the same page: you consider that Hex is utterly worthless unless the Warlock gets to have it ongoing AND all of their spell slots at the same time?

I think spending 50% of my spell slots on hex is far too high of a cost, yes. With the likelihood of concentration getting broken by other means, it's honestly a dubious proposition that you get the mileage out of Hex regardless. But with this, where you can never get the intended use of hex's duration, I would would never cast hex.

It's about opportunity cost. What am I not casting, because I cast hex. Warlocks make or break on getting extra value out of spell casts. That's what the auto-upcasting thing is really about. This would like...take away part of their class features.

[Psyren]

Can you name another concentration spell that lasts more than an hour?

Hunter's Mark, Suggestion, Project Image, Animal Shapes, Control Weather...

[sithlordnergal]

I mean, the intent was that you can concentrate on spells during a Short Rest. Lets take a look at what ends Concentration. To quote the PHB:


Normal activity, such as moving and Attacking, doesn’t interfere with Concentration. The following factors can break concentration:

Casting another spell that requires Concentration: You lose concentr⁠ation on a spell if you cast another spell that requires conc⁠entration. You can’t concentrate on two Spells at once.

Taking Damage: Whenever you take damage while you are concentrating on a spell, you must make a Constitution saving throw to maintain your Concentration. The DC equals 10 or half the damage you take, whichever number is higher. If you take damage from multiple sources, such as an arrow and a dragon’s breath, you make a separate saving throw for each source of damage.

Being Incapacitated or killed: You lose Concentration on a spell if you are incap⁠acitated or if you die.


So, you can do regular adventuring activity while you're Concentrating on a spell. This includes solving puzzles, dealing with traps, making difficult skill checks, ect. Concentrating on a spell doesn't really seem to be that strenuous, otherwise casters would have disadvantage on those skill checks. Meanwhile, a Short Rest states:


A Short Rest is a period of Downtime, at least 1 hour long, during which a character does nothing more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds.

Nothing in there says Concentration ends during a Rest. Hell, it looks like you can Concentrate on a spell during a Long Rest, provided you don't fall unconscious. Additionally, we also have word from Mike Mearls, back before 2019, when tweets were considered official rulings.

https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/513025269917966336

Finally, for those of you that think it does end Concentration: What then, is the point of having spells like Hex and Hunter's Mark last for 24 hours if they end during a period of rest, even if you do not sleep? Are you saying adventuring parties are expected to go 24 hours without any form of rest at all?




I don't get it.

Long-rest-depending class casts concentration spell, the group decides it's time to short rest for X reason, spell ends with the short rest. Spell slot is spent.

Short-rest-depending class casts concentration spell, he group decides it's time to short rest for X reason, spell ends with the short rest. Spell slot is spent, but they just got all of their spell slots.

Seems to me the Short-rest-depending classes are the ones benefiting the most from taking the short rest.



So just to be clear we're all on the same page: you consider that Hex is utterly worthless unless the Warlock gets to have it ongoing AND all of their spell slots at the same time?

No, Long-Rest dependent classes don't lose their concentration with a Short Rest unless their spell lasts less than an hour. Things like Suggestion, Control Weather, Hunter's Mark, Project Image, and Animal shapes would all last through a Short Rest. If they have a duration longer than 8 hours, and the caster doesn't require sleep, then they last through the Long Rest as well.

And while the Warlock does get their spell slot back, they are apparently losing out on their upcasted Hex, which they have no choice but to cast at their highest level slot. Does it not strike you as odd that Hex, one of only two spells that scale via duration, is only found on the Warlock spell list if Concentration automatically has to end during a rest? The Warlock, a class who's entire gimmick is "I cast spells at the highest level possible, have no spell slots, and get everything back on a Short Rest". Your ruling doesn't strike you as a bit odd? And a bit of a nerf?

And no, its not worthless. But it sure as hell removes the utility of casting it and having it on for the rest of the day.


EDIT


Hey man, I'm the magic-hater around here and I think that's a bit too far. More precisely, it ends up hurting the ones who need short rests the most and then can't even benefit from them fully because they have to sacrifice their extended features to take one. Not a fan.

Look at this. You have Phoenix and I agreeing that this ruling is too harsh for a spell caster. XD

[diplomancer]

I actually think long-Hex concentrating is almost a trap. Hex is ok for the first 2, maybe 4 levels, but once you get to 3rd level spells there are far, far better concentration options.Even at level 3... what is better, to have Hex active and add 1d6 to your Eldritch Blasts, or to have Spider Climb active, and be able to attack a lot of enemies with almost impunity? Sometimes Hex willl be better, if you don't have access to walls, but Spider Climbing will be so much better when it works; And long-Hex concentrating locks you out of so much... Pact of the Tome? No casting any Rituals. Pact of the Chain? No re-casting Find Familiar. No Misty Visions. Glasya Tiefling? No free-casting Invisibility; And so on.

All Warlocks I've played with I've actually swapped out Hex once I reach level 5 (I've never played a Pact of the Blade, though, maybe they would want it more).

And to think that some DMs feel that even concentrating on it over a Short Rest is "shenanigans"!

[Unoriginal]

Are you saying adventuring parties are expected to go 24 hours without any form of rest at all?

I am saying that at my table, adventurer parties are expected to go 24h without any form of rest at all IF they make the choice to keep a 24h duration Concentration spell active.

I can't say it will be a likely occurence, but it's a choice to make regardless, and that's what is important.

You can pursue your Hunter's Marked target through forests and mountains and rivers for 24h... or you can stop that hunt because it's exhausting.



No, Long-Rest dependent classes don't lose their concentration with a Short Rest unless their spell lasts less than an hour.

They do, with that ruling of mine.


Things like Suggestion, Control Weather, Hunter's Mark, Project Image, and Animal shapes would all last through a Short Rest.

They wouldn't, at my table.



If they have a duration longer than 8 hours, and the caster doesn't require sleep, then they last through the Long Rest as well.

As you can imagine, if I'm not letting casters concentrate during their short rests, I'm not letting them concentrate during their long rest either.


Your ruling doesn't strike you as a bit odd? And a bit of a nerf?

I can see it's unpopular enough, and as such rarely-used enough, to be qualified of "odd", yes.

And it is a nerf, yes, I'm simply disagreeing when people say the Warlock is somehow the one hit strongly by the nerf.



And no, its not worthless. But it sure as hell removes the utility of casting it and having it on for the rest of the day.

I consider being able to cast it on the first fight of the day, spend 6 hours exploring, and still use it on the fight after said 6h to be enough perks.



Look at this. You have Phoenix and I agreeing that this ruling is too harsh for a spell caster. XD

The only argument brought forth as to why my ruling would be "too harsh" so far is that it makes casting a specific level 1 spell less attractive for a lvl 11 PC.

Is Hex such a cornerstone of the class that it should occupy the one Concentration of the Warlock even at a level where they can use it to summon powerful Fiends to do their biddings or radiate people into a slow death with holy light?


Because so far I haven't seen anyone argue Hex is that good or iconic or anything, it's just that having it ongoing with no spell slot cost is appreciated.




And to think that some DMs feel that even concentrating on it over a Short Rest is "shenanigans"!

I don't consider someone casting Hex on an enemy then short-resting after the fight to get their spell slot back with Hex still ongoing to be shenanigans, to be clear. Even if I don't allow it at my table.

However, the old "I carry a bag of rats so I can Hex something first thing in the morning, then go to bed one more hour to get all my spell slots back" thing is definitively an attempt at exact-word shenanigans.

[Skrum]

Because so far I haven't seen anyone argue Hex is that good or iconic or anything, it's just that having it ongoing with no spell slot cost is appreciated.


Lol it's about how the class is supposed to function. Warlocks spells are in direct competition in a way that other casters aren't. They don't get multiple slots, they just get 2 to cast any spell. Low level ones usually get some kind of benefit for being cast out of a higher level slot, which might keep them attractive even when weighed against higher level spells.

Not giving a caster the benefit of upcasting a spell is, in effect, a targeted nerf of warlocks because they are the only class that gets upcasted spells automatically.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Well yes, but just imagine a world where an up-cast first level spell from a 5th level spell slot wasn't as powerful as a 5th level spell?

Imagine a world where burning hands cast from a 3rd level slot wasn't as good as fireball.

The marginal value of a spell dropping off with upcasting is possibly a legitimate concern for class design, but as it is such a common feature I don't think it helpful to use it as a guide to suggest what rullings were intended to be made, or should be made.

Ew, I don't like this world you're asking for.

[Boci]

That's still a win for the party - you take a creature out of the fight entirely with a 1st level slot and no save or condition. That's better than Hold Person Monster. If I were the player I'd be pretty happy at this result.

This assumes they run away immediately, which they typically won't. A more realistic scenario is they will run away when their HP is low enough that they realise they cannot win this fight.

Not terribly relevant, but worth noting that a monster running away and not being killed can screw over a PC, in this specific scenario. And a couple of others too.

[animorte]

I just cast Hex on my Imp and use Relentless Hex all day as a free Misty Step. That’s my mobility. My control usually comes in the form Repelling Blast so I don’t have to worry about other spells breaking my concentration. My other slot is typically saved for GTFO-sh*t-went-really-bad, or sometimes an extra bit of nova.

If I don’t use that combo (which I clearly don’t on every Warlock), I often don’t use Hex at all (especially under a ruling that keeping it up through short rest is impossible). It would be nice if the damage scaled a bit as well.

For me, the invocations and subclass features tend to round out the class quite well, if you build to do so. I don’t feel quite as limited by the slots as others do probably. That doesn’t mean I don’t want my slot back though. It’s not like Warlock slots or spells are downright stronger than any other full caster.

[JNAProductions]

I just cast Hex on my Imp and use Relentless Hex all day as a free Misty Step. That’s my mobility. My control usually comes in the form Repelling Blast so I don’t have to worry about other spells breaking my concentration. My other slot is typically saved for GTFO-sh*t-went-really-bad, or sometimes an extra bit of nova.

If I don’t use that combo (which I clearly don’t on every Warlock), I often don’t use Hex at all (especially under a ruling that keeping it up through short rest is impossible). It would be nice if the damage scaled a bit as well.

For me, the invocations and subclass features tend to round out the class quite well, if you build to do so. I don’t feel quite as limited by the slots as others do probably. That doesn’t mean I don’t want my slot back though. It’s not like Warlock slots or spells are downright stronger than any other full caster.

It does scale-with number of attacks, something Warlocks get just fine with Eldritch Blast.

[animorte]

It does scale-with number of attacks, something Warlocks get just fine with Eldritch Blast.
Of course, so it’s fine with Eldritch Blast, but anything else is mediocre. I’m not sure how many people are fine just spamming Eldritch Blast, even if that’s what the class is built for and there are different ways to improve it.

[Unoriginal]

Lol it's about how the class is supposed to function. Warlocks spells are in direct competition in a way that other casters aren't. They don't get multiple slots, they just get 2 to cast any spell. Low level ones usually get some kind of benefit for being cast out of a higher level slot, which might keep them attractive even when weighed against higher level spells.

Not giving a caster the benefit of upcasting a spell is, in effect, a targeted nerf of warlocks because they are the only class that gets upcasted spells automatically.

Two important things here:

1) How many of the Warlock's lvl 1 spells are still competitive/attractive when the Warlock is lvl 11? Using the spell list, not including the subclass spells or the Pact-granted perks or invocations, I mean.

2) You're arguing that me not giving the benefits of upcasting a specific lvl 1 spell is a nerf to the Warlock class as a whole. Even if I were to agree that I'm not giving any benefit for upcasting it (which I don't agree with, but let's go with it for this hypothetical), I must ask once more: is Hex somehow such a core part of the Warlock class that not having it ongoing at lvl 11 is making the Warlock as a whole worse?

[animorte]

I must ask once more: is Hex somehow such a core part of the Warlock class that not having it ongoing at lvl 11 is making the Warlock as a whole worse?
I think, for some Warlock builds, it absolutely can be. Each one I have played functions differently.

- This one needs it all day (would drastically be affected by not maintaining it).
- Another uses it because somebody in the party can grapple consistently and it helps with that (among a few other things), but otherwise it’s not a core part of the class.
- A different one has never even considered the spell.

In short, it can easily be a core part of the class, but Warlocks are so modular (why I love them) that it varies greatly.

[JNAProductions]

Of course, so it’s fine with Eldritch Blast, but anything else is mediocre. I’m not sure how many people are fine just spamming Eldritch Blast, even if that’s what the class is built for and there are different ways to improve it.

What would you recommend for Hex scaling?

[animorte]

What would you recommend for Hex scaling?
Improve a d6 at each level duration improves.

[MrStabby]

I'm not opposed to that either, but if the player isn't having fun with the number of slots they get I think that's the root of the issue - that's all I'm saying. Which can be exacerbated under some conditions, e.g. the warlock being the only caster in the party.
I agree this is an issue and I am all for warlocks getting a bit of a nod here and there but if the issue is spell slots and how it pertains to a specific class then just make it slightly easier to take a short rest, rather than buffing every spell in this bracket and every character that picked up this spell with tools like fey touched. I think tackling the root cause is better than trying to patch things with overly generous rulings. How much of an issue this is may depend on party composition more than anything.

I mean I guess that more short rests would also have a knock on effect of collateraly buffing the monk, but I can live with that.



Warlocks have *two* spell slots/SR until 11th level. You're saying that if they want Hex to remain active, they need to spend *half* of their slots on Hex, no matter what, despite it automatically lasting for 8 hours for them once they hit 5th. The upcast duration is why a warlock would bother with something like hex to begin with.

Concentration is the limiting factor here. Not only do they need to think about concentration checks when taking damage, they need to not cast any other concentration spells, like Hypnotic Pattern. IMO, you are "balancing" something that the game already accounts for, thus needlessly nerfing a class that really does not need to be nerfed.
I would say that if they want hex to remain active then, yes, they would have to use a spell slot for it - especially if they have just got them all back. So far I have been blessed with players that don't feel entitled to have their level 1 spell remain worthy of higher level spell slots through all tiers of play.

As you note, it's not a huge cost to the warlock though. It frees up concentration and there are many really good spells on warlock and patron lists worthy of those higher level spell slots.

As for whether the warlock "needs to be nerfed", maybe not, but that is a pretty high bar. A more appropriate bar is whether it brings classes overall more in to balance - does it move the warlock towards or away from the median at any given level of play? Personally I feel the warlock is inthe top six classes in most tiers of play and is therefore not in need of buffing through such a generous interpretation of the resting mechanics.

[Boci]

As for whether the warlock "needs to be nerfed", maybe not, but that is a pretty high bar. A more appropriate bar is whether it brings classes overall more in to balance - does it move the warlock towards or away from the median at any given level of play? Personally I feel the warlock is inthe top six classes in most tiers of play and is therefore not in need of buffing through such a generous interpretation of the resting mechanics.

Full casters will be compared to other full casters primarily. Arguing that warlocks still compare favourably to rangers even without the hex trick is unlikely to be appreciated by players who wouldn't be comparing those classes to begin with, they would be comparing the warlock to other arcane full casters.

[animorte]

I mean I guess that more short rests would also have a knock on effect of collateraly buffing the monk, but I can live with that.
I think Monks and Warlocks are the two most balanced classes in the game. However, if a function completely relies on the DM to allow enough extra rests for a class to keep up with the competition, it likely doesn’t bode well for choosing to play that class in the first place.


therefore not in need of buffing through such a generous interpretation of the resting mechanics.
I don’t see where there is such a generous ruling. It would be equally fair to say the ruling of not carrying concentration through a short rest is unnecessarily restrictive. The absence of the rules stating the specifics is the bigger problem here.

Therefore, some of us logically assume that a spell with duration throughout the whole day (especially on a short rest based class) would be expected to maintain that. It’s not a particularly large buff anyway. They also can’t use any other concentration spells if it is expected to be maintained.

If the Warlock player is choosing Hex as their focus and already holding themselves back in order to do so, why make it even more difficult?

[Tanarii]

2) You're arguing that me not giving the benefits of upcasting a specific lvl 1 spell is a nerf to the Warlock class as a whole.
You're ignoring the base issue, which is you are house ruling to remove the benefit of upcasting spells where the primary benefit is to extend the duration.

This house rule impacts Warlocks in particular and Hex in particular, which means it happens to be somewhat unfairly targeted. But it doesn't change the base issue with the house rule.

Even more base issue than that, is you still haven't explained why you're house ruling concentration. When you change a core mechanic of spellcasting, it's usually a good idea to have a reason to do it. And "Concentration (key word for a set of rules) should be limited by things that impact on concentration (real world definition)" is a bad one, if that's your reasoning.

[sithlordnergal]

Two important things here:

1) How many of the Warlock's lvl 1 spells are still competitive/attractive when the Warlock is lvl 11? Using the spell list, not including the subclass spells or the Pact-granted perks or invocations, I mean.

2) You're arguing that me not giving the benefits of upcasting a specific lvl 1 spell is a nerf to the Warlock class as a whole. Even if I were to agree that I'm not giving any benefit for upcasting it (which I don't agree with, but let's go with it for this hypothetical), I must ask once more: is Hex somehow such a core part of the Warlock class that not having it ongoing at lvl 11 is making the Warlock as a whole worse?

1) Actually...a decent number of them scale extremely well. Hex scales directly with Eldritch Blast since it deals damage with every attack, Cause Fear and Charm Person scale extremely well, Hellish Rebuke scales nearly as well as Inflict Wounds, and Armor of Agathys has insanely good scaling, with its only weakness being that Warlocks don't gain many resistances. Given you only learn 15 spells as a Warlock, those 5 can represent a third of your entire spell list.

2) Its less that the nerf is directly targeting the warlock, or even Hex itself, and more that you are accidentally catching the Warlock in a crossfire while trying to prevent short rest shenanigans. This nerf does hit all spell casters, but Warlocks are hit the hardest because their entire casting model is based around a small number of slots that come back on a short rest. Given that the damage Hex deals scales directly with the number of times you hit with Eldritch Blast, its not unfair to say that Hex is a core part of a Warlock's kit. With your nerf, Warlocks are essentially forced to use half of their spell slots on a spell that should last the entire day, until level 11 when it becomes one third.

[MrStabby]

You're ignoring the base issue, which is you are house ruling to remove the benefit of upcasting spells where the primary benefit is to extend the duration.

This house rule impacts Warlocks in particular and Hex in particular, which means it happens to be somewhat unfairly targeted. But it doesn't change the base issue with the house rule.

Even more base issue than that, is you still haven't explained why you're house ruling concentration. When you change a core mechanic of spellcasting, it's usually a good idea to have a reason to do it. And "Concentration (key word for a set of rules) should be limited by things that impact on concentration (real world definition)" is a bad one, if that's your reasoning.

But it's not house ruling anything or changing anything. There is no default rolling as to whether concentration is sufficiently arduous as to prevent resting.

Pretending that there is some kind of default position on this is a little misleading (ok, maybe very misleading), assuming that any default just happens to match what you believe is maybe natural, but not particularly constructive.

[Boci]

But it's not house ruling anything or changing anything. There is no default rolling as to whether concentration is sufficiently arduous as to prevent resting.

There's no concrete ruling, but there a finite list of things that end concentration, short resting isn't one of them, and there are a list of things that prevent resting, and maintaining concentration isn't one of them. Given that resting is a core mechanic of the game, its not unreasonable to assume they would have mentioned they wouldn't work together.

[PhoenixPhyre]

There's no concrete ruling, but there a finite list of things that end concentration, short resting isn't one of them, and there are a list of things that prevent resting, and maintaining concentration isn't one of them. Given that resting is a core mechanic of the game, its not unreasonable to assume they would have mentioned they wouldn't work together.

Yeah. And the rules don't tell you what doesn't break concentration. They do tell you what, by default, does do so. So absence of a restriction is a default setting.

[MrStabby]

There's no concrete ruling, but there a finite list of things that end concentration, short resting isn't one of them, and there are a list of things that prevent resting, and maintaining concentration isn't one of them. Given that resting is a core mechanic of the game, its not unreasonable to assume they would have mentioned they wouldn't work together.

The key thing mentioned that prevents resting is anything "more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds."

This seems to be the key feature.

It's a reasonable position to argue that concentrating on a spell is really easy and is in fact less difficult than reading. I also think it's perfectly reasonable to conclude that concentrating on a spell is harder than reading.

This is why I suggest asking the DM. Both stances are consistent with what is written and any assumptions that one is universaly right is going to be misguided.

[Boci]

The key thing mentioned that prevents resting is anything "more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds."

This seems to be the key feature.

It's a reasonable position to argue that concentrating on a spell is really easy and is in fact less difficult than reading. I also think it's perfectly reasonable to conclude that concentrating on a spell is harder than reading.

This is why I suggest asking the DM. Both stances are consistent with what is written and any assumptions that one is universaly right is going to be misguided.

The rules also don't say you can climb a ladder and concentrate on a spell at the same time, do they? Would you say its up to the DM with no one ruling being default?

Spell casting is explicitly mentioned as something you can't do, concentrating on an existing one isn't. Rage by contrast explicitly mentions both.

[MrStabby]

The rules also don't say you can climb a ladder and concentrate on a spell at the same time, do they? Would you say its up to the DM with no one ruling being default?

Spell casting is explicitly mentioned as something you can't do, concentrating on an existing one isn't. Rage by contrast explicitly mentions both.

Well thats my point. If concentration is hard, then it is mentioned in the rules for things that prevent resting. If concentration is easy it isn't.

And climbing a ladder - well yeah, I would say that extended periods of ladder climbing would prevent a time being considered a short rest as well.

[Boci]

Well thats my point. If concentration is hard, then it is mentioned in the rules for things that prevent resting. If concentration is easy it isn't.

So its not explicitly mentioned, unlike spell casting, and rage explicitly mentions both. Really seems like by not mentioning concentration its doesn't break rest.

[MrStabby]

So its not explicitly mentioned, unlike spell casting, and rage explicitly mentions both. Really seems like by not mentioning concentration its doesn't break rest.

I get why you might think it would be, if the list both claimed to be exhaustive and were.it not to also include that caveat about harder things.

[Tanarii]

But it's not house ruling anything or changing anything. There is no default rolling as to whether concentration is sufficiently arduous as to prevent resting.

Pretending that there is some kind of default position on this is a little misleading (ok, maybe very misleading), assuming that any default just happens to match what you believe is maybe natural, but not particularly constructive.


Yeah. And the rules don't tell you what doesn't break concentration. They do tell you what, by default, does do so. So absence of a restriction is a default setting.
Exactly this. The rules tell us what ends concentration. Resting isn't one of them. Changing that is a house rule, since you're modifying concentration. It's not an interpretive ruling. It's a keyword mechanic with explicit rules, not real world concentration.

The unconscious condition is one. So depending on if you use the new rules in Xanathar's, which makes natural sleep include the unconscious condition and requires long rest to include sleeping, Long Rests (now) ends concentration.

[diplomancer]

Exactly this. The rules tell us what ends concentration. Resting isn't one of them. Changing that is a house rule, since you're modifying concentration. It's not an interpretive ruling. It's a keyword mechanic with explicit rules, not real world concentration.

The unconscious condition is one. So depending on if you use the new rules in Xanathar's, which makes natural sleep include the unconscious condition and requires long rest to include sleeping, Long Rests (now) ends concentration.

I disagree with the ruling; but the ruling is not so much "resting breaks concentration" (that would indeed be a houserule change to the concentration rules), but "concentration is too strenuous to get a rest". So if you sit in a corner for one hour and do nothing but concentrate on your spell, you won't lose concentration on it, but you won't get the Short Rest benefits either. In order to get them you'd have to stop concentrating - which always can be a voluntary action, so there is no conflict here with the rules about ending concentration; you voluntarily end your concentration, you rest for 1 hour, you get the benefits of a Short Rest.

A consequence of that reading is that if you are, say, a Ranger concentrating on an 8 hours Hunter's Mark and the party wants to Short Rest even though you don't need it, you don't have to oppose the party or to go solo, you can stay by the party with your Concentration up.

[JackPhoenix]

I disagree with the ruling; but the ruling is not so much "resting breaks concentration" (that would indeed be a houserule change to the concentration rules), but "concentration is too strenuous to get a rest". So if you sit in a corner for one hour and do nothing but concentrate on your spell, you won't lose concentration on it, but you won't get the Short Rest benefits either. In order to get them you'd have to stop concentrating - which always can be a voluntary action, so there is no conflict here with the rules about ending concentration; you voluntarily end your concentration, you rest for 1 hour, you get the benefits of a Short Rest.

So concentrating on a spell is too strenuous to prevent a rest, but not too strenuous to prevent you from doing literally anything else (except concentration on another spell, obviously)? That's rather specific amount of strenuousness.

[diplomancer]

So concentrating on a spell is too strenuous to prevent a rest, but not too strenuous to prevent you from doing literally anything else (except concentration on another spell, obviously)? That's rather specific amount of strenuousness.

As, I've said, I disagree with the ruling :)
But the requirements for a short rest are quite strict. Cast a Cantrip and you don't qualify for it. No prestidigitating your food to make it taste better! I can see the argument that concentrating for one hour is more strenuous than casting a Cantrip.

[Jerrykhor]

The key thing mentioned that prevents resting is anything "more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds."

This seems to be the key feature.

It's a reasonable position to argue that concentrating on a spell is really easy and is in fact less difficult than reading. I also think it's perfectly reasonable to conclude that concentrating on a spell is harder than reading.

This is why I suggest asking the DM. Both stances are consistent with what is written and any assumptions that one is universaly right is going to be misguided.

The problem with that statement is that the list doesn't seem to finite, and its reasonable for the DM to rule that concentration is strenuous enough to prevent resting.

My argument is the usage of the word 'concentration' is a poor choice considering the intent of the game designers. You are not actually 'doing' any thing while concentrating on a spell, the intent is to prevent more than 1 spell effect ongoing at a time. Its not that you have to be constantly making mental calculus in your head, or mentally playing a musical tune. Obviously magic is make believe and so are the rules.

If it were up to me, i'd rule that one can concentrate on a spell during short rest regardless if they sleep through it or not. I mean, if your short rest was uninterrupted, sleep is just a fluff. The game rules does not differentiate a short nap from a full nights sleep in comfortable bed and pillows, or being knocked out by a baddie. All of them consider you as 'unconscious'. But if you're going to argue what is 'strenuous' or not, then why stop there?

[MrStabby]

The problem with that statement is that the list doesn't seem to finite, and its reasonable for the DM to rule that concentration is strenuous enough to prevent resting.

My argument is the usage of the word 'concentration' is a poor choice considering the intent of the game designers. You are not actually 'doing' any thing while concentrating on a spell, the intent is to prevent more than 1 spell effect ongoing at a time. Its not that you have to be constantly making mental calculus in your head, or mentally playing a musical tune. Obviously magic is make believe and so are the rules.

If it were up to me, i'd rule that one can concentrate on a spell during short rest regardless if they sleep through it or not. I mean, if your short rest was uninterrupted, sleep is just a fluff. The game rules does not differentiate a short nap from a full nights sleep in comfortable bed and pillows, or being knocked out by a baddie. All of them consider you as 'unconscious'. But if you're going to argue what is 'strenuous' or not, then why stop there?

Honestly, I wouldn't have a major problem with the DM rolling that way. They make a judgement call and they make it according to what works for their campaign.

I basically see four options:

1) the PHB explicitly says "concentrating on a spell is not amongst the things that precudes resting".
2) the PHB explicitly says "Concentration is amongst the things that precludes resting"
3) the PHB is not explicit and the DM will make a ruling as is their job
4) the PHB is not explicit, so you should decide which one you like and argue that your favourite interpretation is what the rules would have said only the writers missed it, and that your preferred interpretation is the 'best' one and moreover you should try and convince everyone who has doubts over your interpretation that they are wrong.

Of these, I think 3 is really the only good option. This is why I advocates asking the DM. Its of course perfectly fine for a DM (or player) out of interest to ask others how they would rule.

[Unoriginal]

I admit I was wrong in my wording.

"Maintaining Concentration prevents resting" is an house rule, not a ruling.

[MrStabby]

I admit I was wrong in my wording.

"Maintaining Concentration prevents resting" is an house rule, not a ruling.

No more or less so than "Maintaining Concentration does not prevent resting"

[RSP]

I would say the RAW is that short resting does not break Concentration per this line:

“Normal activity, such as moving and attacking, doesn’t interfere with concentration.”

Is “a period of downtime, at least 1 hour long, during which a character does nothing more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds” abnormal activity? Seems very normal to me and my playing experience.

Also, for those who care about such things, from JC:

“Jeremy Crawford
@JeremyECrawford
No rule prevents an elf from concentrating while using the Trance trait.”

If an elf can Trance for a 4-hour LR and not lose Concentration, I’d imagine a 1-hour SR would be fine as well.

But the latter only applies if you care about JC’s take on it. Either way, I don’t think a short rest is abnormal activity.

[MrStabby]

I would say the RAW is that short resting does not break Concentration per this line:

“Normal activity, such as moving and attacking, doesn’t interfere with concentration.”

Is “a period of downtime, at least 1 hour long, during which a character does nothing more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds” abnormal activity? Seems very normal to me and my playing experience.

Also, for those who care about such things, from JC:

“Jeremy Crawford
@JeremyECrawford
No rule prevents an elf from concentrating while using the Trance trait.”

If an elf can Trance for a 4-hour LR and not lose Concentration, I’d imagine a 1-hour SR would be fine as well.

But the latter only applies if you care about JC’s take on it. Either way, I don’t think a short rest is abnormal activity.

I think the question isn't about resting breaking concentration, but it's about whether you can rest whilst still concentrating. Is concentrating on a spell sufficiently arduous as to prevent a rest. Its the rules on resting rather than the rules on concentration that seem to be the limiting factor.

Neither rules set is necessary to probit resting and concentration, but either rules set that might prohibit it is sufficient for it to not work.

[RSP]

I think the question isn't about resting breaking concentration, but it's about whether you can rest whilst still concentrating. Is concentrating on a spell sufficiently arduous as to prevent a rest. Its the rules on resting rather than the rules on concentration that seem to be the limiting factor.

Neither rules set is necessary to probit resting and concentration, but either rules set that might prohibit it is sufficient for it to not work.

Ah. So is concentrating on a spell more arduous than concentrating on tending wounds? Is concentrating on a spell more strenuous than concentrating on preparing a meal?

So unless you sit there with a clear head, not thinking about anything, you aren’t resting?

[MrStabby]

Ah. So is concentrating on a spell more arduous than concentrating on tending wounds? Is concentrating on a spell more strenuous than concentrating on preparing a meal?

So unless you sit there with a clear head, not thinking about anything, you aren’t resting?

Pretty much, though reading is also on the threshold of something that if crossed will prevent resting, and seemed the more natural point of comparison as it seemed more akin to concentrating on a spell. So it it's harder than reading, you can't rest. If it's harder than those other things also - there are multiple conditions that can prevent a short rest.

[Tanarii]

I admit I was wrong in my wording.

"Maintaining Concentration prevents resting" is an house rule, not a ruling.As the person who made the huge mistake of using the term, I apologize for doing so / going down that path. It is unnecessarily pejorative when used that way, and always a distraction from the point.

What I want to understand is why you rule this way.
Is it because as other have said (paraphrasing) concentration = difficult exertion, harder than allowed to SR?
Or is it something in the combination feels abusive to you?
Something else I'm missing that has nothing to do with concentration or short rests?

For example of reasoning that has nothing to with either, I was already effectively house-ruling / making-a-ruling that LR cancelled concentration, prior to Xan codifying natural sleep caused unconscious condition. PCs arrived at the adventuring sites with no spells pre-cast and full charged up. The reason: to eliminate between session campaign tracking & save some of what little sanity I had left.

Edit:

1) the PHB explicitly says "concentrating on a spell is not amongst the things that precudes resting".Insofar as interpreting rule wording goes, the PHB 'saying' nothing in either rule about the other rule is implicitly the same thing as this explicit rule.

[sithlordnergal]

Exactly this. The rules tell us what ends concentration. Resting isn't one of them. Changing that is a house rule, since you're modifying concentration. It's not an interpretive ruling. It's a keyword mechanic with explicit rules, not real world concentration.

The unconscious condition is one. So depending on if you use the new rules in Xanathar's, which makes natural sleep include the unconscious condition and requires long rest to include sleeping, Long Rests (now) ends concentration.

Technically, a Long Rest would only remove Concentration if you require sleep, or have to trance in the case of elves. Races like the Warforged don't actually require sleep, and Aspect of the Moon lets you forego sleep entirely. So you should be able to Concentrate on a spell and still gain the benefits of a Long Rest with them. Which I'd say is a huge boon for Warlocks since Hex eventually lasts 24 hours.

[Chronos]

Even if you allow concentrating through rests (either or both kinds), the extended duration on upcast Hex still isn't usually very relevant. Hex lasts for so many hours or until you take damage and fail your save or until you decide that there's something else that would be a better use for your concentration. How often is it going to be that you go for eight hours without either of those happening?

[Boci]

Even if you allow concentrating through rests (either or both kinds), the extended duration on upcast Hex still isn't usually very relevant. Hex lasts for so many hours or until you take damage and fail your save or until you decide that there's something else that would be a better use for your concentration. How often is it going to be that you go for eight hours without either of those happening?

For a warlock, its easily possible they don't use another concentration spell, given how few slots they have, and nor is it that unlikely that you won't fail a concentration save. Shouldn't be an every session occurrence, but neither will it necessarily be a once in a blue moon thing.

[Tanarii]

Even if you allow concentrating through rests (either or both kinds), the extended duration on upcast Hex still isn't usually very relevant. Hex lasts for so many hours or until you take damage and fail your save or until you decide that there's something else that would be a better use for your concentration. How often is it going to be that you go for eight hours without either of those happening?
Depends if the campaign allows dipping Fighter for Con saves (and armor), or the Resilient (Constituion) Feat. In particular having armor and Con saves and hiding in the back can be (but is not always) very effective. Saw plenty of that in AL DDEX, where you are fairly unlikely to get swarmed or attacked from behind.

Less so IMX because yes no Multiclassing and Feats means you're typically looking at +2 to Con saves, and getting swarmed or attacked from behind was more common. But even so, it was possible to make it through one dangerous fight without getting hit and still have it carry over to the next one.

Remember, an adventuring day is potentially 3 Deadly fights. Getting through 1 should hopefully mean an opportunity for a Short Rest.

[HomeBrewStu]

'you can use a bonus action on a subsequent turn of yours to curse a new creature'

Would this part require any VSM component?

[Boci]

'you can use a bonus action on a subsequent turn of yours to curse a new creature'

Would this part require any VSM component?

No, you're not casting it, so unless it specifies otherwise it wouldn't require this. It also couldn't be countered.

[RSP]

'you can use a bonus action on a subsequent turn of yours to curse a new creature'

Would this part require any VSM component?

No. The components are part of casting. Transferring the curse doesn’t involve casting.

[Chronos]

And it not requiring re-casting (and hence no components) to transfer is convenient in a few ways. Maybe you want to use it in a civilized setting, to disadvantage someone's Perception, Insight, or the like, and you don't want them to know you're using a spell (Hex isn't just for the extra damage). Maybe you're in a magically-silenced area. Maybe you want to transfer Hex and cast a non-cantrip spell (such as Scorching Ray) in the same round.