PAth to the Grave Question

[MisterD]

How does Path to the Grave interact with Magic Missile if all missiles are aimed at a single target?

[Unoriginal]

How does Path to the Grave interact with Magic Missile if all missiles are aimed at a single target?

Two possibilities, depending on how you read it:

1) Only the first missile is affected by Path to the Grave, as each missile is a separate source of damage (ex: if a Concentrating caster is hit by 4 magic missiles, they have to do 4 Concentration checks).

2) None of the missiles are affected, since they are not attacks (as Path to the Grave's wording makes clear it affects damage from attacks, meaning things that do damages but are not attack like saving throw effects, damage from falling or automatic damage due (for example) to being stuck in a damage-over-time AoE aren't affected).

[PhoenixPhyre]

Two possibilities, depending on how you read it:

1) Only the first missile is affected by Path to the Grave, as each missile is a separate source of damage (ex: if a Concentrating caster is hit by 4 magic missiles, they have to do 4 Concentration checks).

2) None of the missiles are affected, since they are not attacks (as Path to the Grave's wording makes clear it affects damage from attacks, meaning things that do damages but are not attack like saving throw effects, damage from falling or automatic damage due (for example) to being stuck in a damage-over-time AoE aren't affected).

I can't read it any other way than #2. MM is not an attack, therefore PttG does not trigger.

[Unoriginal]

I can't read it any other way than #2. MM is not an attack, therefore PttG does not trigger.

That would be how I read it too, yeah. But some people likely disagree, mostly in a "can a Warlock's Familiar use a Wand of Magic Missile?" context or similar.

[Grey Watcher]

I can't read it any other way than #2. MM is not an attack, therefore PttG does not trigger.

I dunno. You could argue it's an attack, but the spell "rolls" the dice for you such that the result is always "hit, but not a crit". I'm not 100% convinced by that reading myself, but it's a possible way to read something that, if it didn't have the auto-hit property, would almost certainly be an attack roll.

But yeah, if your DM is primarily interested in hewing to the exact text over what's flavorful or might make sense in-universe, then it's a no go.

[RogueJK]

It's explicitely contingent upon there being an attack. In 5E, an "attack" is a specific thing, requiring an attack roll. Magic Missile is not an attack, just like something like Toll the Dead or Fireball is not an attack.

If it were meant/able to trigger on just dealing damage, the wording would read "the next time you or an ally deal damage", as certain other abilities do.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I dunno. You could argue it's an attack, but the spell "rolls" the dice for you such that the result is always "hit, but not a crit". I'm not 100% convinced by that reading myself, but it's a possible way to read something that, if it didn't have the auto-hit property, would almost certainly be an attack roll.

But yeah, if your DM is primarily interested in hewing to the exact text over what's flavorful or might make sense in-universe, then it's a no go.

For me, the entire point of magic missile is that it's not an attack. Or a saving throw. It's not "an attack that automatically hits", it's just raw damage. And letting it count as an attack when it benefits it leads to shenanigans.

[Unoriginal]

And letting it count as an attack when it benefits it leads to shenanigans.

Indeed. It's either an attack, or it's not, it can't be an attack when it's good to be an attack and not an attack when it's bad to be an attack.

Magic Missile is an hostile action that deals damage, but it's not an attack, and as such is not affected by all features that interact with "attacks". Same way that Path to the Grave would have no effect if the enemy was mind-controlled to walk straight into a Gelatinous Cube.

It's not "hewing to the exact text over what's flavorful", it's just the limits of the spells and of the feature, which can benefit or hinder depending on circumstances.

[Segev]

I always worry about things that say something like magic missile is not an attack, because it feels like it opens up other shenanigans. I do think 5e has been pretty careful to couch things as "do damage or force a saving throw" when it would matter, but it always feels like something to be watchful of.

"I'm not attacking you!" mocks the schoolyard bully sorcerer as he magic missiles the barbarian, when both know "attacks" are going to be punished by the school teacher.

[Unoriginal]

I always worry about things that say something like magic missile is not an attack, because it feels like it opens up other shenanigans. I do think 5e has been pretty careful to couch things as "do damage or force a saving throw" when it would matter, but it always feels like something to be watchful of.

"I'm not attacking you!" mocks the schoolyard bully sorcerer as he magic missiles the barbarian, when both know "attacks" are going to be punished by the school teacher.

There are effects that only protect against attacks, in which case they are bypassed by Magic Missile. There are also effects that only protect against saving throws powers, in which case Magic Missile bypass them too.

But on the other hand, there are also effects that protect against everything except attacks, or everything except saving throws, both cases blocking Magic Missile.

It is something to be watchful of, and sometime Magic Missile does bypass a protection, but it's not shenanigans it's just a known, accepted part of the spell.

Like in the show "Angels", where the club Caritas had a spell that made it impossible for any demon and later for anyone to attack anyone while in the building, but did nothing to protect against someone throwing a barrel of explosive through the door.

[RogueJK]

To approach it from a different angle, refer to the spell description for Shield.

It states: Casting Time - 1 reaction, which you take when you are hit by an attack or targeted by the magic missile spell

Further specific evidence that Magic Missile is not an attack, otherwise the latter portion of that would not be necessary.

[Segev]

To approach it from a different angle, refer to the spell description for Shield.

It states: Casting Time - 1 reaction, which you take when you are hit by an attack or targeted by the magic missile spell

Further specific evidence that Magic Missile is not an attack, otherwise the latter portion of that would not be necessary.

This is a good point about insight into the RAI as well as the RAW.

[Kane0]

I'd let it work with Magic Missile purely becuase the cleric picked Grave and not Twilight/Peace.

[KorvinStarmast]

cIt states: Casting Time - 1 reaction, which you take when you are hit by an attack or targeted by the magic missile spell

Further specific evidence that Magic Missile is not an attack, otherwise the latter portion of that would not be necessary. Thank you. :smallsmile: It's been ruled that way at our tables since about 2014. Because Reading the Books is a useful thing. (Granted, the editors at WotC need to answer for a lot of sloppiness...)