How fast does a laden dwarf sprint?

[SangoProduction]

A certain earth gliding question reminded me of this nagging question that I've never gotten a (well-explained) answer to.
But the Run action is a multiplier upon one's movement speed, which depends on a couple factors - one of which being armor.

From Pathfinder

Base Speed: (Slow and Steady) Dwarves have a base speed of 20 feet, but their speed is never modified by armor or encumbrance.

From 3.5

A dwarf’s base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.

3.5, funnily enough, is even worse for dwarves, if taken in the worst possible way. But I choose to ignore that.

Both of these reference base land speed. (Though PF at least says that their speed isn't modified, allowing a Monk Dwarf - mountain monasteries were known for their ale - to benefit from their movement.... OK, make that a dwarf barbarian... that wears heavy armor, because reasons.) Not necessarily sprint multiplier.

Really, it's an utterly irrelevant question as an extra 20 feet isn't going to change the results of pretty much anything. And I can think of a good few reasons...including the previous one. And the one from reasonableness of sprinting affecting the "speed" (distance over time) of movement. But in this game, there's a distinction between speed and distance moved in a round. You have the same 'speed' regardless of how much you actually move.

But I really want to see if anyone can dig up literally any other rules or written official references that might imply something one way or the other.

[Drelua]

This isn't exactly helpful, but looking at the PF quote I'm imagining a mean DM telling someone their dwarf can't move any faster when they activate their mithral full plate of speed. Your speed is never modified by armor, so...

I always just assumed dwarves' movement just wasn't changed by their armor at all, their run multiplier never occured to me. It comes up so rarely, I guess it didn't occur to the devs either.

[Ashtagon]

Hill dwarf or mountain dwarf?

[Darg]

They can sprint as if under a light load or using light armor. That's all. Yes, one can use the RAW to imply it is more specific than a magic effect, but it's quite obvious that isn't the case. If it were, in 3.5 a dwarf wearing medium or heavy armor would be completely immune to any effect modifying their speed or immobilizing them if they so chose. This is obviously not the intent. So yeah, one can use RAW to do anything, but really it's just a fight over which is more specific or even if something conflicts in the first place (generally the way to read something that doesn't break things is going to be considered more correct.)

[PraxisVetli]

Hill dwarf or mountain dwarf?

Asking the real questions

[Particle_Man]

For added fun a dwarf in full plate armour can tumble. Maybe not well but it can be done.

[Duke of Urrel]

If we interpret the Rules as Written strictly, then they imply nothing that they don't say explicitly.

The rules for dwarves (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm#dwarves) say explicitly that neither armor nor encumbrance reduces their base speed of 20 feet per standard move (as it normally would for a Humanoid of any other species).

The text does not say that a dwarf's base speed is absolutely inalterable by any means. It also does not exempt dwarves from the rest of rules for running, such as the rule that heavy armor permits you to sprint only three times your speed (rather than four times your speed) in one full-round action.

Nor does it exempt dwarves from the various rules that require armor or encumbrance to hamper you in some way when you try to use Balance, Climb, Jump, Move Silently, Swim, or Tumble skill.

If we say that the rules for dwarves imply that neither armor nor encumbrance can deprive dwarves of any speed advantage that they might acquire by any means, or if we say that the rules for dwarves exempt them from any other hindrance that armor or encumbrance imposes (besides a reduction in base speed), then we go beyond the Rules as Written. Maybe there is a good reason, in some cases, to add our own rules to the RAW, but if we do this, we do this for our reasons, not for any reason that I can find anywhere in the RAW.

[Malphegor]

You have no idea how much I’ve been primed to ask ‘african or european’ when discussing the speed of things laden with something. Damn Month Python and its lingering effects on d&d discussions lol

[Crake]

You have no idea how much I’ve been primed to ask ‘african or european’ when discussing the speed of things laden with something. Damn Month Python and its lingering effects on d&d discussions lol

I came here expecting a monty python joke thread. I was disappointed.

[aglondier]

Hill dwarf or mountain dwarf?

I would have asked "african or european dwarf?"

[Particle_Man]

If we interpret the Rules as Written strictly, then they imply nothing that they don't say explicitly.

The rules for dwarves (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm#dwarves) say explicitly that neither armor nor encumbrance reduces their base speed of 20 feet per standard move (as it normally would for a Humanoid of any other species).

The text does not say that a dwarf's base speed is absolutely inalterable by any means. It also does not exempt dwarves from the rest of rules for running, such as the rule that heavy armor permits you to sprint only three times your speed (rather than four times your speed) in one full-round action.

Nor does it exempt dwarves from the various rules that require armor or encumbrance to hamper you in some way when you try to use Balance, Climb, Jump, Move Silently, Swim, or Tumble skill.

If we say that the rules for dwarves imply that neither armor nor encumbrance can deprive dwarves of any speed advantage that they might acquire by any means, or if we say that the rules for dwarves exempt them from any other hindrance that armor or encumbrance imposes (besides a reduction in base speed), then we go beyond the Rules as Written. Maybe there is a good reason, in some cases, to add our own rules to the RAW, but it's if we do this, we do this for our reasons, not for any reason that I can find anywhere in the RAW.

Tumble explicitly says that “ You can’t use this skill if your speed has been reduced by armor, excess equipment, or loot.” Since dwarves don’t have their speed reduced by armour, excess equipment, or loot, there is nothing else to prevent them from using the tumble skill in particular, at least in 3.5.

[Darg]

Shorty speed is already hampering enough. No need to keep them from tumbling.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I'd allow the dwarf to still run at x4 regardless of armor. Why? Because dwarves are natural sprinters‚ very dangerous on a short distance.

[Mnemius]

Hill dwarf or mountain dwarf?

Neither, Gully dwarves unite!


Tables I've been at have always treated it as no matter how much he's carrying or how much armor he's wearing, that's not slowing a dwarf down.

[Telonius]

3.5, for Dwarves (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm#dwarves):


Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations).

Here's the text of the Run (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#run) action from 3.5:


You can run as a full-round action. (If you do, you do not also get a 5-foot step.) When you run, you can move up to four times your speed in a straight line (or three times your speed if you’re in heavy armor). You lose any Dexterity bonus to AC unless you have the Run feat.

You can run for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution score, but after that you must make a DC 10 Constitution check to continue running. You must check again each round in which you continue to run, and the DC of this check increases by 1 for each check you have made. When you fail this check, you must stop running. A character who has run to his limit must rest for 1 minute (10 rounds) before running again. During a rest period, a character can move no faster than a normal move action.

You can’t run across difficult terrain or if you can’t see where you’re going.

A run represents a speed of about 12 miles per hour for an unencumbered human.

So, the text says that you move "up to four times your speed." That's "your speed," not "your base speed" or "your unmodified speed." You would use whatever movement speed is appropriate to how he's moving. (If your Dwarf had wings and was running, it would be four times his land speed; if he was flying, four times his fly speed). That's the usual rule. The exception (for most characters) is if you're in heavy armor, or encumbered. (Heavy armor is explicitly mentioned in the description; slowing down from encumbrance is spelled out elsewhere). The Dwarf's racial trait explicitly removes the limitations for either type of movement, so if you have a standard dwarf wearing heavy armor, he could move at 80 ft running.

If the Dwarf were a Monk, it gets a little bit trickier. Monk's speed increase specifically only applies under certain conditions:


When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses her AC bonus, as well as her fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.

It's pretty clear that the text intends to remove all the bonuses to movement whenever any armor is worn. The class feature doesn't care what race you are, just whether or not you're wearing armor. If you want to argue that the Dwarf's racial characteristic supersedes that, then it would mean that a Dwarf Monk wearing padded armor would lose the speed bonus (being light armor, it isn't affected by the racial feature), but the same dwarf wearing full plate would be fine to move at the Monk's faster speed. (If you can find a DM to agree to that, encumbered speed is going to be the least of your worries).

Similar situation with Barbarian. Here's the text:


A barbarian’s land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the barbarian’s speed because of any load carried or armor worn.

The text is telling you to apply the bonus first before any issues with load or armor. I would apply the "no heavy armor or heavy load" test first to see if the character gets the +10 feet,

[vasilidor]

If the dwarf can move it at all, he be moving it at full speed.

[Drelua]

If we interpret the Rules as Written strictly, then they imply nothing that they don't say explicitly.

The rules for dwarves (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm#dwarves) say explicitly that neither armor nor encumbrance reduces their base speed of 20 feet per standard move (as it normally would for a Humanoid of any other species).

The text does not say that a dwarf's base speed is absolutely inalterable by any means. It also does not exempt dwarves from the rest of rules for running, such as the rule that heavy armor permits you to sprint only three times your speed (rather than four times your speed) in one full-round action.

Nor does it exempt dwarves from the various rules that require armor or encumbrance to hamper you in some way when you try to use Balance, Climb, Jump, Move Silently, Swim, or Tumble skill.

If we say that the rules for dwarves imply that neither armor nor encumbrance can deprive dwarves of any speed advantage that they might acquire by any means, or if we say that the rules for dwarves exempt them from any other hindrance that armor or encumbrance imposes (besides a reduction in base speed), then we go beyond the Rules as Written. Maybe there is a good reason, in some cases, to add our own rules to the RAW, but it's if we do this, we do this for our reasons, not for any reason that I can find anywhere in the RAW.

I'd agree with this, the ability doesn't say your run multiplier is changed, or I guess prevented from being changed, so the normal rule would apply. Since the ability is part of their base speed, in both 3.5 and PF, I think it's fair to say that when it says your speed is never altered, it means this number not your actual speed. Speed as a game term is how far you can move in a move action, not how fast you're going. Your speed is the same whether you're taking a single move, double move, or run action. Like how a very tall person may be able to reach higher than 8 feet, but rules-wise 8 feet is still your reach for the purposes of grabbing onto a ledge. In 3.5 at least, that rule seems to be missing from PF.