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View Full Version : Yet another clerical cheese: Surge of Fortune + Vorpal, anyone noticed?



FinalJustice
2007-12-02, 01:29 PM
Take a good look at the spell Surge of Fortune, from Complete Champion. Then, imagine a cleric with this and a vorpal weapon and divine metamagic quicken. Almost instant decaptation-KO.

SURGE OF FORTUNE
Transmutation
Level: Cleric 5
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level or until discharged

Upon casting this spell, you gain a +2 luck bonus on ! attack rolls and damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, ability checks, and spell penetration checks, as well as to Armor Class.
At any point before the spell expires, you can channel some of its remaining power into a single instant of perfect fortune as an immediate action. The result of the next attack roll, saving throw, skill check, ability check, or spell penetration check you attempt is treated as a natural 20, as long as it occurs within 1 round of the time you invoked this power. (If you use it for an attack roll, you must still roll to confirm the critical hit normally. ) Using this option instantly ends the spell.

RTGoodman
2007-12-02, 01:38 PM
The only problem I can see is that you have to have a way to guarantee that you can confirm the critical hit. I can't seem to find the rules on exactly how confirming works, so I'm not sure if it's technically another attack roll (which another quickened Surge of Forture or something could work on) or if it's another type of roll (which would be unaffected by most spells).

Spiryt
2007-12-02, 01:38 PM
Nice.
http://www.mandifoods.com/images/20240-F.JPG


For ya.


Anyway, it think that this damn "instant 20" can get even more broken results. Somebody must just think about them.

Crow
2007-12-02, 01:40 PM
Nice danish cheese.

GolemsVoice
2007-12-02, 01:45 PM
You can diminish the problem of confirming by enchanting your weapon with something that gives you a bonus on confirming your crits. I think the bonus was +4, but I don't remember the name of the enchantment.

Crow
2007-12-02, 01:48 PM
Power Critical is a feat that gets you +4. If this stacks with whatever enchantment it is, you're doing alright.

RTGoodman
2007-12-02, 01:50 PM
You can diminish the problem of confirming by enchanting your weapon with something that gives you a bonus on confirming your crits. I think the bonus was +4, but I don't remember the name of the enchantment.

Yeah, and there's also the Power Critical feat from Complete Warrior, but I figure if we're already talking about DMM Cleric-Zilla here, there has to be a spell somewhere that effectively replaces the need to take the feat. The enchantment might also be a problem, considering Vorpal is already a +5 ability, but it could be a better option. Also, there's probably some item in MIC that gives a bonus to confirm crits, but I'm not sure at the moment.

Spiryt
2007-12-02, 01:50 PM
You can diminish the problem of confirming by enchanting your weapon with something that gives you a bonus on confirming your crits. I think the bonus was +4, but I don't remember the name of the enchantment.

Plus attacking with absolutely no PowerAttack (what for?), buffed to stratosphere, will anyway give pretty decent chance of confirming.

Crow
2007-12-02, 01:57 PM
There is a wizard spell in Complete Arcane that gives +4 to confirm as well.

FinalJustice
2007-12-02, 01:57 PM
Unfortunatelly, Bless Weapon doesn't stack with any other effect that affects criticals, vorpal included. If you're really scared of missing it, take power critical feat to get +4. But, let's face it, if you're in ClericZilla mode, the chances of confirming are high.

And surely the brokeness of this spell goes far beyond this. On save or die situations, if it's active, you can discharge it to escape everything, imagine.
DM: 'Rock Falls, party dies'
Player pretends whining: 'WITHOUT EVEN SOME REFLEXES?!!!?!?1one!'
DM wants to annoy him: 'Ok, ref 50 to half infinite damage, good luck'
Player: 'I have a ring of evasion and I discharge SoF, natural 20 on reflexes, infinite damage avoided. Eat it!"
Nasty DM goes nuts because of humiliation.

Spiryt
2007-12-02, 02:04 PM
Well, there is always Time Domain in Forgotten Realms. Grants true strike and few other spells...

omgclericsarebrokenwhothehellwasdevelopingitandish enuts mumblegrumble

Kurald Galain
2007-12-02, 03:48 PM
Isn't there a weapon somewhere that crits on a 16+?

Mewtarthio
2007-12-02, 03:56 PM
Isn't there a weapon somewhere that crits on a 16+?

Probably, but Vorpal weapons only kill on a natural twenty.

Sucrose
2007-12-02, 03:57 PM
Isn't there a weapon somewhere that crits on a 16+?

Anything with a long crit range and the Keen enhancement (or the Keen Edge spell, or the Improved Critical feat). However, that's quite irrelevant, because Vorpal only works if you roll a twenty.

Edit: ninja'd!

F.L.
2007-12-02, 04:18 PM
Finally, you can build your vorpal weapon of Ysgardian Heartwire for a bonus to confirm crits. (BOED)

Iku Rex
2007-12-02, 04:51 PM
Nice danish cheese.(Norwegian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jarlsberg_cheese).)

Crow
2007-12-02, 04:58 PM
(Norwegian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jarlsberg_cheese).)

Close. :smallwink:

dyslexicfaser
2007-12-02, 05:07 PM
As I recall, Flesh Ring of Scorn from the MIC grants an auto-confirm but deals 2d6 to you.

Snicker-snack, sucker.

Mewtarthio
2007-12-02, 05:08 PM
What if you coupled this spell with true strike? Cast surge of fortune, then on the next round cast quickened true strike, move up to the target, then discharge surge of fortune on your next attack roll. Odds are, your enemy will die unless you roll a natural 1 on the confirmation.

Emperor Tippy
2007-12-02, 05:11 PM
Your just now noticing this? As for confirming the crit. Have the luck domain and use Moment of Prescience for at least a +15 to hit.

Or you use Craft Contingent Spell to put a contingent True Strike on yourself.

Yes, a Cleric built properly can use thsi trick to off anything that needs a head to survive (such as Dragons).

Magnor Criol
2007-12-02, 05:58 PM
Finally, you can build your vorpal weapon of Ysgardian Heartwire for a bonus to confirm crits. (BOED)

Unless it's mentioned in another book besides BoED, this is incorrect. Heartwire is solely for armor, and has the effect of "increasing the wearer's AC by +2 soley for the purposes of the roll to confirm critical hits." (BoED, p38)

You're probably thinking of Solarian Truesteel, just two entries up on the same page, that grants +1 on a check to confirm a critical when made into a weapon.

Dragonstar
2007-12-02, 07:38 PM
A weapon with the Pitspawned Template (DMG II, pg 278) gives a +2 bonus on rolls to confirm critical hits...

RTGoodman
2007-12-02, 09:28 PM
I just now thought to check the Rules Compendium, and according to it, after rolling a threat you "immediately make a critical roll - another attack roll made with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made." [Emphasis mine.]

So, according to that, confirming a critical is technically an attack roll (since the Rules Compendium is, by definition, the authoritative source for rulings regarding, well, rules). Depending on your definition of "immediately" (see the definition above) and specifically whether or not you can use a quickened spell during that time, you can just use any spell that gives a bonus to attack rolls (like truestrike).

Nattypat
2007-12-02, 09:44 PM
A little late for this, but... badass.

Oh, and Jarlsberg is delicious!

de-trick
2007-12-02, 10:34 PM
nice cheese, I think ill use it

tsuyoshikentsu
2007-12-02, 11:14 PM
Try Hunter's Mercy. First level Ranger spell: if you hit you crit, I believe.

Nom nom nom.

Jack Zander
2007-12-02, 11:28 PM
Try Hunter's Mercy. First level Ranger spell: if you hit you crit, I believe.

Nom nom nom.

Please explain how this helps this build.

EDIT: Hmm... wait I think I see what you are saying. You get a nat 20 so you hit, and the crit is auto confirmed. I was thinking funny for a sec.

Reel On, Love
2007-12-02, 11:38 PM
Guaranteeing a confirmed critical is easy--just have two Surge of Fortune spells up and running. Only one will be "active" for all intents and purposes, but as soon as you expend the first, the second becomes active, and you can expend it to confirm the crit with a Natural 20.

Because expending SoF is an immediate action, using it when you don't have a swift action left eats up your next turn's swift action. Who cares, you autokill the dragon.

Fuzzy_Juan
2007-12-03, 12:08 AM
I just now thought to check the Rules Compendium, and according to it, after rolling a threat you "immediately make a critical roll - another attack roll made with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made." [Emphasis mine.]

So, according to that, confirming a critical is technically an attack roll (since the Rules Compendium is, by definition, the authoritative source for rulings regarding, well, rules). Depending on your definition of "immediately" (see the definition above) and specifically whether or not you can use a quickened spell during that time, you can just use any spell that gives a bonus to attack rolls (like truestrike).

the question would remain...if you had true strike imbued in the weapon as a spell effect 'on use', it triggers when you attack with the sword...would it persist through the crit since you are still using it? Or, you could make the spell 'continuous' if you multiply the cost by 4 since it persists for a single round. so, 2,000gp for 'on use' or 8,000gp for always...well...go for the always if you have the cash and the 'cheap' version doesn't get you crits as well.

Ooh...then if you stick the natural 20 one on your weapon...hmm...the expend the spell thing kinda trips you up...

Icewalker
2007-12-03, 12:17 AM
I'm pretty sure it's impossible to use truestrike or anything similar here. At least, I wouldn't allow it even going by RAW, not as a no-cheese ruling.

The critical confirm is made as part of the hit, so the rolls are made consecutively: you can't take an immediate action during that time, because the hit and the confirm are happening at the same time. So no activating a weapon ability or anything.

And putting on a true strike before hand doesn't work, because it is 'next attack roll gets +20' and this cleric spell says 'is treated as a natural 20' meaning the roll is still made. So no true strike, you have to just give yourself a million constant bonuses to hit or crit confirm...:smallbiggrin:


Nice cheese.

MCerberus
2007-12-03, 12:22 AM
That ranger spell seems pretty hilarious to use with this. 200gp (level 1 potion level 4 CL) and a level 5 cleric spell to *autokill* a dragon? Yes please.

Mewtarthio
2007-12-03, 12:25 AM
And putting on a true strike before hand doesn't work, because it is 'next attack roll gets +20' and this cleric spell says 'is treated as a natural 20' meaning the roll is still made. So no true strike, you have to just give yourself a million constant bonuses to hit or crit confirm...:smallbiggrin:

You sure? Crit confirmations get the same bonuses that the original attack roll had. You don't automatically get a twenty, but the true strike should still apply.

Guy_Whozevl
2007-12-03, 12:31 AM
That ranger spell seems pretty hilarious to use with this. 200gp (level 1 potion level 4 CL) and a level 5 cleric spell to *autokill* a dragon? Yes please.

You forgot 72,000 gp for a +1 Vorpal Longsword or whatever...

Chronos
2007-12-03, 12:34 AM
200gp (level 1 potion level 4 CL)Why a caster level of 4? Rangers can cast level 1 spells at CL 2. Remember, a ranger or paladin's caster level is half his class level.

Nebo_
2007-12-03, 12:40 AM
Someone on the CharOp boards used that spell to make a monk/artificer with vorpal feet. IIRC he used some trick to make it confirm, but I could be wrong.

MCerberus
2007-12-03, 12:42 AM
Why a caster level of 4? Rangers can cast level 1 spells at CL 2. Remember, a ranger or paladin's caster level is half his class level.

Ah yes my bad I keep on not looking deep enough with those kind of specifics (level 4 is minimum level TO cast).

So this looks like a 7,200gp investment with 200gp expended per use. Dragons are triple standard so you turn a PROFIT at your first CR 7. That ranges from young Adult White (CR 8) to very young Gold (CR 7) for dragons. For a Great Wyrm Gold you're looking at... wow... 8.7 MILLION gp. (assuming you can get into melee range with a sword drawn)

Talic
2007-12-03, 12:55 AM
Cast Surge of fortune.

pre attack: expend SoF for an auto 20.
divine metamagic- expend turning attempts to cast a quickened SoF.
Swing - Auto 20.
Pre-confirm: expend SoF for an auto 20.
Off with its head?

Mewtarthio
2007-12-03, 12:59 AM
Cast Surge of fortune.

pre attack: expend SoF for an auto 20.
divine metamagic- expend turning attempts to cast a quickened SoF.
Swing - Auto 20.
Pre-confirm: expend SoF for an auto 20.
Off with its head?

You know, I was going to say that this won't work because you can only expend the SoF as you make the roll, but per the spell description it actually does.

tyckspoon
2007-12-03, 01:02 AM
Ah yes my bad I keep on not looking deep enough with those kind of specifics (level 4 is minimum level TO cast).

So this looks like a 7,200gp investment with 200gp expended per use. Dragons are triple standard so you turn a PROFIT at your first CR 7. That ranges from young Adult White (CR 8) to very young Gold (CR 7) for dragons. For a Great Wyrm Gold you're looking at... wow... 8.7 MILLION gp. (assuming you can get into melee range with a sword drawn)

That's 72,000 for the vorpal sword (+6 equivalent.) If you've got a vorpal sword at level 7, the DM is being loose enough with the cash that you don't really need to worry about getting more.


pre attack: expend SoF for an auto 20.
divine metamagic- expend turning attempts to cast a quickened SoF.
Swing - Auto 20.
Pre-confirm: expend SoF for an auto 20.
Off with its head?

If your DM lets you do it. I would envision the crit-confirm roll as happening concurrent with the first attack roll; there's no time to do anything to change the situation, not even use another immediate action, so the second Stroke of Fortune doesn't help.

Roderick_BR
2007-12-03, 05:21 AM
And to think they nerfed the original Power Critical (once a day, your attack is an automatic threat, now it's only a +4 to confirm criticals).

If you fight an evil creature, use bless weapon to make it an automatic critical (bless weapon doesn't stacks with any effect that messes with criticals, but the spell the OP found is just an auto natural 20, not anything to do directly with criticals, so it stacks).

... Another spell to add to my cheesy UMD paladin... :smallbiggrin:

Borogove
2007-12-03, 05:38 AM
...If you fight an evil creature, use bless weapon to make it an automatic critical (bless weapon doesn't stacks with any effect that messes with criticals, but the spell the OP found is just an auto natural 20, not anything to do directly with criticals, so it stacks).

... Another spell to add to my cheesy UMD paladin... :smallbiggrin:


In addition, all critical hit rolls against evil foes are automatically successful, so every threat is a critical hit. This last effect does not apply to any weapon that already has a magical effect related to critical hits, such as a keen weapon or a vorpal sword.Bless Weapon will allow the auto-crit, but not the vorpal effect.

Roderick_BR
2007-12-03, 05:48 AM
Bless Weapon will allow the auto-crit, but not the vorpal effect.
I stand corrected.
But I plan on using it on a build that doesn't use vorpal weapons anyway.
Drat, bless doesn't work with special effects that works with criticals, like burst weapons, right? Damn... Well, still a nice effect to add.

Chronos
2007-12-03, 02:59 PM
Someone on the CharOp boards used that spell to make a monk/artificer with vorpal feet. IIRC he used some trick to make it confirm, but I could be wrong.So that's what Chuck Norris' build is...

Craig1f
2007-12-04, 10:23 AM
I realize this is off topic, but I'd just like to say Surge of Fortune Rules.

Surge of Fortune + Dispel Magic = that spell that you simply HAVE to debuff is gone!

I used it last night to absolutely great effect. Then my character was sucked into nothingness by some artifact weapon. But hey, we won! Except now I need a new character.


RIP Ozlavan lies here. He was a badass mother-shut-yo'-mouf.
Warlock 1/Cleric 3/Eldritch Disciple 10/Contemplative 2

weenie
2007-12-04, 10:37 AM
What if you coupled this spell with true strike? Cast surge of fortune, then on the next round cast quickened true strike, move up to the target, then discharge surge of fortune on your next attack roll. Odds are, your enemy will die unless you roll a natural 1 on the confirmation.

Completely agree.

Yakk
2007-12-04, 01:28 PM
Wonderful no-save no-SR and die trick!

EldritchExMachina
2007-12-04, 01:58 PM
-Apologies, didn't see the second page on the thread. I feel quite silly.

Roderick_BR
2007-12-04, 03:04 PM
What if you coupled this spell with true strike? Cast surge of fortune, then on the next round cast quickened true strike, move up to the target, then discharge surge of fortune on your next attack roll. Odds are, your enemy will die unless you roll a natural 1 on the confirmation.
And before I forget, use a scythe with power attack, and leap attack (you don't even need shoock trooper, maybe because for the confirmation hit). Even with only a base attack of 15 instead of 20, that's still an instaload crap of damage.
Who needs vorpal?