[RAW] Alter self, extra limbs and multiweapon fighting

[Condé]

Hello,

It must have been answered a bunch of times and it probably is DM-dependant BUT... Is there a definitive answer if, yes or no, you can cast Alter Self to turn your character into a Thri-keen (Let's say you are playing an anthropomorphic creature in order to be a Monstrous Humanoid and be able to use Alter self to be a Thri-keen) and you can now use your 4 arms, right?


A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

You can make 4 claws attacks. No problem.
You cannot make more advantageous two-weapon attacks. Right. No problem.

But what if you have the feat Multiweapon fighting? Does that allow you to make more weapon attacks, as the feat say, or can you only use your arms for natural attacks?

In some guides, from Giantitp, you can see it is apparently a "common" trick to do, just alter self into a diopsid, thri-keen or whatever and boom... But does it work, by RAW?

The handbooks:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook


5. Polymorph Shenanigans

Use various alter self/metamorphosis/polymorph effects to turn yourself into a creature with four or more arms.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?127463


Alter Self: By starting out with an aberration, monstrous humanoid or outsider race (Elan, Neraph, or Anthropomorphic <blah> can be LA +0), you can alter into a Tako, Thri-Kreen, Diopsid, or some other multi-armed creature. Magical beasts such as Girallons are a little tougher. PHB.

Of course, a handbook has no value, is not raw or anything. But it gives ideas of how people assume things work.

Thanks.

[Darg]

Normally a creature can only attack with a maximum of a two weapon routine without a special exception. For many creatures that exception is the multiweapon fighting feat just like it is for thri-keen. So yes, if you change into a thri-keen you can take the multiweapon fighting feat to allow up to 2 extra attack routines.

Feats only care that you have the ability to fill requirements in order to take them. Meaning, if you have 10 str but have a belt of str +4, while wearing it you qualify for the power attack feat and can benefit from it. In the same way you wouldn't be able to benefit from the multiweapon fighting feat without being transformed, but you would gain back access upon transforming.

[Condé]

Normally a creature can only attack with a maximum of a two weapon routine without a special exception. For many creatures that exception is the multiweapon fighting feat just like it is for thri-keen. So yes, if you change into a thri-keen you can take the multiweapon fighting feat to allow up to 2 extra attack routines.

Feats only care that you have the ability to fill requirements in order to take them. Meaning, if you have 10 str but have a belt of str +4, while wearing it you qualify for the power attack feat and can benefit from it. In the same way you wouldn't be able to benefit from the multiweapon fighting feat without being transformed, but you would gain back access upon transforming.

That is what I'm thinking but I can't be sure at 100%, that is why I made this thread in the first place. It seems logical to me that if you alter self and have the Multiweapon fighting, you should be able to use your extra arms take offhand attacks with them.

[Darg]

That is what I'm thinking but I can't be sure at 100%, that is why I made this thread in the first place. It seems logical to me that if you alter self and have the Multiweapon fighting, you should be able to use your extra arms take offhand attacks with them.

It is how it works. Several books like complete warrior or complete champion imply that that is how prerequisites work.

[pabelfly]

You can fight with multiple weapons without the Multiweapon Fighting feat, just like you can wield two weapons without the TWF feats. However, the penalties are pretty severe: "A creature without this feat [Multiweapon Fighting] takes a -6 penalty on attacks made with it's primary hand and a -10 on attacks made with it's off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all others are off hands.) See Attacking with Two Weapons, page 124 in the Player's Handbook."

You also have to worry about DR if you aren't able to get decent damage with each hit.

If you're going to do alter self shenanigans, find a template or race that natively gives you Multiweapon Fighting at least, so you don't have such severe penalties when fighting.

[Condé]

It is how it works. Several books like complete warrior or complete champion imply that that is how prerequisites work.


You can fight with multiple weapons without the Multiweapon Fighting feat, just like you can wield two weapons without the TWF feats. However, the penalties are pretty severe: "A creature without this feat [Multiweapon Fighting] takes a -6 penalty on attacks made with it's primary hand and a -10 on attacks made with it's off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all others are off hands.) See Attacking with Two Weapons, page 124 in the Player's Handbook."

You also have to worry about DR if you aren't able to get decent damage with each hit.

If you're going to do alter self shenanigans, find a template or race that natively gives you Multiweapon Fighting at least, so you don't have such severe penalties when fighting.

I appreciate both of your input. But I must not have been clear. I know these rules and it is not the problem. The problem is this sentence in the Alter Self description of the spell:


A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

Oh and Pabelfly, you cannot take a template while using Alter Self.


You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.

Otherwise, the spell would be even more "advantageous" than it is now. And if you are suggesting taking a race with these features at first, then alter self into something else, I guess you would lose them since you lose almost everything from your original form.


You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.

My only concern is the "Not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks)".

Which can be interpreted in different ways:
1 - Prevents you from doing more attacks than normal, no matter what form you take. But that could concern natural attacks too and that would be a very restrictive way to read this sentence.
2 - Prevents you from using multiple weapons, because you do not have the physical ability to do it.
3 - Reminds you cannot use multiple weapons, but if you have Multiple Weapons Fighting, you can because it allows you to do so.

[Gruftzwerg]

Imho it doesn't work out. The misconception here is that Multiweapon trumps Alter Self, but that is only half of the truth here. Have a look:

1. Alter Self excludes you from doing attacks with extra limbs.

2. The extra limbs still qualify you for the Multiweapon Fighting feat-line

3. But you can only profit from the feat for 2 weapons. The feat sole reduces the penalties and the Imp./GR. feats sole talk about the penalty for the offhand attacks. Nowhere are you given the permission to use more limbs to trump the rules set by Alter Self.

edit: an argument could be made for the specific case of Dvati twins, since they already have 4 limbs. But lets not talk about the void of rules regarding Dvati Twins..^^

edit 2: If you are looking for RAW silliness take the monk's Unarmed Strike ability...
- a monk's US may count as manufactured or natural weapon for spells and effects
- a monk may do his US with his hands, elbows, knees and feet (exchanges the normal limb rule)
- thus, a monk's US counts for the requirements for Imp. -/ Multiattack feats (feats produce an "effect" by RAW)
Have fun lining up you elbows, knees and feet as secondary attack at -0 penalty (due to Imp. Multiattack). You get iterative attacks with your mainhand and all other body parts mentioned as secondary attack. Monks are OP^^

[loky1109]

Imho it doesn't work out. The misconception here is that Multiweapon trumps Alter Self, but that is only half of the truth here. Have a look:

1. Alter Self excludes you from doing attacks with extra limbs.

2. The extra limbs still qualify you for the Multiweapon Fighting feat-line

3. But you can only profit from the feat for 2 weapons. The feat sole reduces the penalties and the Imp./GR. feats sole talk about the penalty for the offhand attacks. Nowhere are you given the permission to use more limbs to trump the rules set by Alter Self.
Totally agree. MWF doesn't give you extra attack if you can't make it.
So being thri-kreen and Alter Self into thri-kreen it's apples and oranges.

[Gruftzwerg]

Totally agree. MWF doesn't give you extra attack if you can't make it.
So being thri-kreen and Alter Self into thri-kreen it's apples and oranges.

I just noticed that neither Polymorph nor Shapechange trump this rule. Haven't really thought about this until now.
So the Alter Self spell line is handicapped by default compared to Wild Shape and the newer polymorph subschool specific spells (dunno if the subschool has forms with multiple limbs?? but at least Wild Shape has).

[Darg]

edit 2: If you are looking for RAW silliness take the monk's Unarmed Strike ability...
- a monk's US may count as manufactured or natural weapon for spells and effects
- a monk may do his US with his hands, elbows, knees and feet (exchanges the normal limb rule)
- thus, a monk's US counts for the requirements for Imp. -/ Multiattack feats (feats produce an "effect" by RAW)
Have fun lining up you elbows, knees and feet as secondary attack at -0 penalty (due to Imp. Multiattack). You get iterative attacks with your mainhand and all other body parts mentioned as secondary attack. Monks are OP^^

Spells and effects is not prerequisites. So no, UAS does not qualify on its own. Even if it did, it wouldn't qualify as a secondary attack. The PHB and the MM call iterative attacks extra/additional and multiple respectively. Secondary attacks are specifically for natural attack routines not the normal attack routine.

For clarification, the number of natural weapons does not indicate the number of attacks a creature can make with them. A minotaur has 2 horns but only makes 1 gore attack after all. A cat type monster has 4 paws with claws and yet can only make 2 attacks with them. Etc.

[Gruftzwerg]

Spells and effects is not prerequisites. So no, UAS does not qualify on its own. Even if it did, it wouldn't qualify as a secondary attack. The PHB and the MM call iterative attacks extra/additional and multiple respectively. Secondary attacks are specifically for natural attack routines not the normal attack routine.

1) The monk's US doesn't qualify by default (without the feats) as secondary attack, since the general rules for natural weapons are not an effect. The feats Imp. -/Multiattack are both effects in the same way a spell is an effect. Just like you can qualify with your monk's US as Natural Weapon for e.g. Magic Fang, you can qualify for feats. That is the purpose of that statement in the monk's US ability, to count as either manufactured or natural weapon to qualify for stuff.
qualify = meet the requirements/prerequisites

2) When you pick up Multiattack as a monk, you can now use its effect by pretending that your US is a natural weapon. As such, it has to obey the specific rules presented by the feat, trumping any general rule before (including the general rule that US are not Natural Attacks and can't be used as secondary weapon).
Specific Trumps General

The monk qualifies for the feat and the more specific rules allows him to use US as secondary weapon. The feat thinks that the monk's US is a natural attack and give his benefit accordingly. Same as Magic Fang thinks that the monk's US is a natural weapon and gives his effect to the US.



For clarification, the number of natural weapons does not indicate the number of attacks a creature can make with them. A minotaur has 2 horns but only makes 1 gore attack after all. A cat type monster has 4 paws with claws and yet can only make 2 attacks with them. Etc.
Sure, that is the general rule.
But my point here is that the monk's US ability allows you to use different body parts (hands, elbows, knees and feet) instead of just the entire limbs. And just like a normal character can use e.g. Weapon Finesse with his mainhand and offhand, a monk can use each of his bodyparts for the Multiattack feat. It's a weird unintended and unbalanced interaction (not RAI), but it is imho RAW. And the Muitiattack feat provides its bonus "to make secondary attacks at a -2 penalty" (or -0 with Improved Multiattack).
Specific Trumps General

I'm not advertising the cheese here. Just pointing it out. As I said, it's not really balanced compared to other melee options and I would recommend everyone to houserule it away if someone should bring this up at your table.

[loky1109]

edit 2: If you are looking for RAW silliness take the monk's Unarmed Strike ability...
- a monk's US may count as manufactured or natural weapon for spells and effects
- a monk may do his US with his hands, elbows, knees and feet (exchanges the normal limb rule)
- thus, a monk's US counts for the requirements for Imp. -/ Multiattack feats (feats produce an "effect" by RAW)
Have fun lining up you elbows, knees and feet as secondary attack at -0 penalty (due to Imp. Multiattack). You get iterative attacks with your mainhand and all other body parts mentioned as secondary attack.

That doesn't work this way. US isn't many natural weapons/attacks. It is single one. No "other body parts". Any body part is used for the same US. Single other option is TWF. And both main and off-hand attack could be made with any body part.


Just like you can qualify with your monk's US as Natural Weapon for e.g. Magic Fang, you can qualify for feats.
You can't. US is one natural weapon, Multiattack needs three.


As such, it has to obey the specific rules presented by the feat, trumping any general rule before (including the general rule that US are not Natural Attacks and can't be used as secondary weapon).
US can't be used as secondary natural weapon because it is primary natural weapon.


But my point here is that the monk's US ability allows you to use different body parts (hands, elbows, knees and feet) instead of just the entire limbs.
You did wrong conclusion from that point. Plus, all your point is wrong, nobody prevents non-monk use different body parts as US.

Strike, Unarmed: A Medium character deals 1d3 points of nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike, which may be a punch, kick, head butt, or other type of attack.

[Gruftzwerg]

That doesn't work this way. US isn't many natural weapons/attacks. It is single one. No "other body parts". Any body part is used for the same US. Single other option is TWF. And both main and off-hand attack could be made with any body part.
1. When you normally use your US, yeah you sole have a single US due to the specific monk's US that says that the body parts are interchangeable.

2. But monk's US alters the general rule for limbs, mainhand and offhand, into body parts. Specific Trumps General.

3. Like you can assign any feat to work with your mainhand and/or offhand, a monk can assign any feat to work with any of his body parts.

4. Now you can start to assign all body parts to Multiattack, each is a legal target for the feat.

5. The monk's US counts as Natural Weapon when used with Multiattack since it is an effect. As such, it can profit from the "Benefit:" as if it would be a Natural Weapon. And that benefit line grants you:

The creature's secondary attacks with natural weapons take only a -2 penalty.

Conclusion: Multiattack allows a monk's US to make secondary attacks with each of his body parts. Each body part is treated as a Natural Weapon that can be used as a secondary attack at a -2 penalty.



You can't. US is one natural weapon, Multiattack needs three.
Yeah, US is normally a single "weapon" by default (see weapons table in the PHB). But that doesn't stop you from assigning each body part individually to Multiattack. And this interaction causes you to have effectively multiple Natural Weapons.
Compare it to someone with TWF and Daggers that is using Weapon Finesse. You can assign the weapon held in each "limb" (mainhand/offhand) to Weapon Finesse and each profit from the feat seperatly. You are also free to use Finesse sole on a single limb and exclude the other.
The same is true for assigning each body part of a monk's US separately to Multiattack, since the body part rule is more specific then the general "limb/mainhand-offhand"-rules.



US can't be used as secondary natural weapon because it is primary natural weapon.
US (even monk's US) is neither by default. Sole the combination of teh monk's US with the Multiattack feats creates a specific exception that allow you to use em as secondary attack at a -2/-0 penalty. Sole for that niche your monk's US counts as a Natural Weapon. You still can't use your monk's US as primary weapon, since that is not part of "Multiattack's Effect".



You did wrong conclusion from that point. Plus, all your point is wrong, nobody prevents non-monk use different body parts as US.
Sure, everybody has body parts for US.
Normal (non-monk) US has even one body part more than monk's US and that is "head" by RAW.
But normal US can't count as Natural Weapon for the purpose of using any "effects".
As such this cheese is sole obtainable for those characters that have the monk's US ability somehow.
Regular US is irrelevant for this discussion (since it can't count as Natural Weapon).

[Condé]

Thank you for your implication, but I think you guys are going a little bit out of topic, don't you think?

Back to the topic, as I was expecting, some think you can, some cannot. I believe it is up to your DM. Maybe the feat allow you to do so, maybe not. Does Polymorph trump this rule or not? Maybe, maybe not. Hard to tell.

I'm the kind of guy who think that, when you are not sure, you better not try to "exploit" that kind of rules to your advantage. There is already so many things you can exploit as a player...

[Gruftzwerg]

Thank you for your implication, but I think you guys are going a little bit out of topic, don't you think?

Back to the topic, as I was expecting, some think you can, some cannot. I believe it is up to your DM. Maybe the feat allow you to do so, maybe not. Does Polymorph trump this rule or not? Maybe, maybe not. Hard to tell.

I'm the kind of guy who think that, when you are not sure, you better not try to "exploit" that kind of rules to your advantage. There is already so many things you can exploit as a player...

Sorry for the offtopic.

But a RAW approach was already given. I don't see many possibilities to contest the outcome by RAW. The rule hierarchy is set by the Primary Source Rule. The result is, it doesn't work by RAW. You can legally take the feat, but the feat(s) don't give you the permission to use more limbs. They sole talk about the penalties that apply to the limbs you have.
You still can sole use 2 limbs.

[ShurikVch]

Note: while you would be unable to use all 4 claws while Alter Self into a Thri-keen, you still may benefit from those extra limbs in a non-attack fashion - like holding a shield, reloading crossbow...
IIRR, you may get bonus on Str checks for extra pair of forelimbs, but I can't find it right now
Also, Fuse Arms spell (Spell Compendium) - it would allow to trade pair of those nonfunctional claws to +4 Str for claw-related actions (i. e. - that Str wouldn't count for bite attacks, jump checks, etc)

[Rebel7284]

Note: while you would be unable to use all 4 claws while Alter Self into a Thri-keen, you still may benefit from those extra limbs in a non-attack fashion - like holding a shield, reloading crossbow...
IIRR, you may get bonus on Str checks for extra pair of forelimbs, but I can't find it right now
Also, Fuse Arms spell (Spell Compendium) - it would allow to trade pair of those nonfunctional claws to +4 Str for claw-related actions (i. e. - that Str wouldn't count for bite attacks, jump checks, etc)

You can definitely use all 4 claws as natural weapons, just not for iterative attacks based on BAB.

[ShurikVch]

You can definitely use all 4 claws as natural weapons, just not for iterative attacks based on BAB.
:smallconfused:
Excuse me, but how, exactly, you get it from

A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.
?

[Condé]

IIRR, you may get bonus on Str checks for extra pair of forelimbs, but I can't find it right now


Funnily enough, I saw the rule earlier today so here you go.


Provided that a weapon is designed for more than two hands, each additional hand used increases the damage
dealt with that weapon. Each hand used beyond the first adds 1/2 the wielder’s Strength bonus to the damage. A creature wielding a Medium-size longsword with two hands adds 1 1/2 times its Strength bonus to the damage roll. A girallon wielding a Huge club with all four hands adds 2 1/2 times its Strength bonus to the damage roll.

[loky1109]

IIRR, you may get bonus on Str checks for extra pair of forelimbs, but I can't find it right now
Sword abd Fist maybe?

[ShurikVch]

Sword abd Fist maybe?
Let's see...
S&F says:
+4 on grapple checks for extra pair of forelimbs
Allows to use multiple two-(or more)-handed weapons, but no more than a single double weapon; and no more than one shield (no extra AC, but all the extra penalties)
Also, allows to reload a crossbow (or even drink a potion!) without provoking AoO

[Rebel7284]

:smallconfused:
Excuse me, but how, exactly, you get it from

?



You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on)


You clearly get natural weapons and presumably can use them. The part about more/more advantageous attacks looks to me like it's referring to manufactured weapons since it explicitly mentions TWF, not to mention that reading it literally, only extra attacks granted FROM extra limbs would be disallowed, but any gore/bite/tail slap/slam would be allowed.

You can of course read that as "any extra attacks are disallowed, no matter what", but that's not what it says, and not what I think was intended.

So
RAW: extra attacks due to extra limbs don't work.
RAI: TWF still sucks because TWF is SCARY
General: Who knows? Make a ruling.

[loky1109]

Extra claw attacks are granted from extra limbs. So you get two claw attacks when AS into thri-kreen, not four.

[Gruftzwerg]

You clearly get natural weapons and presumably can use them. The part about more/more advantageous attacks looks to me like it's referring to manufactured weapons since it explicitly mentions TWF, not to mention that reading it literally, only extra attacks granted FROM extra limbs would be disallowed, but any gore/bite/tail slap/slam would be allowed.

You can of course read that as "any extra attacks are disallowed, no matter what", but that's not what it says, and not what I think was intended.

So
RAW: extra attacks due to extra limbs don't work.
RAI: TWF still sucks because TWF is SCARY
General: Who knows? Make a ruling.


Extra claw attacks are granted from extra limbs. So you get two claw attacks when AS into thri-kreen, not four.

Imho both have a point. But maybe we can dissect the rules here:

A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.
Imho the rule here is referring to the general "Attack"-rules. But Natural Weapons have their specific rules who trump the general attack rules. Thus, my conclusion would be that attacks gained by Natural Weapons don't count against your regular attacks per round. This is further proven by the fact that you can add all your Natural Weapon attacks to your normal "Attack" routine (as secondary attacks).
Imho this rule is sole targeting the mainhand/offhand part of the "Attack" rules.
Which would mean, yeah, Either 4 possible claw attacks or mainhand + only 1 offhand attack and not 3. Finally you could use mainhand + offhand + 2 claws as another option (seems like the best option).

[Crake]

Alter self denies you from using more attacks than you normally could, so regardless of multiweapon fighting or not, you couldn't make more attacks than your normal form.

Also worth noting that two weapon fighting and multiweapon fighting are technically the same feat, just named differently for creatures with more arms. If you have two weapon fighting, and you gain more arms, it becomes multiweapon fighting:


Special

This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms.

But ultimately, it's irrelevant, because the feat, as others have said, doesn't enable attacks, it merely reduces penalties, so it doesn't affect Alter self's limitation of not being able to perform more attacks than your form would normally be capable of.

Of course, if you had multiweapon fighting in the first place, you would have had at least 3 arms, so you'd still be able to make those extra attacks, just no more than normal.

[Gruftzwerg]

Also worth noting that two weapon fighting and multiweapon fighting are technically the same feat, just named differently for creatures with more arms. If you have two weapon fighting, and you gain more arms, it becomes multiweapon fighting:



But ultimately, it's irrelevant, because the feat, as others have said, doesn't enable attacks, it merely reduces penalties, so it doesn't affect Alter self's limitation of not being able to perform more attacks than your form would normally be capable of.
I hadn't noticed that so far (or did forget it, who knows..^^). But that is far from being irrelevant. At least for anything outside of the Alter Self spell line. E.g. Wild Shape which got an ERRATA to be based on Alternate Form now (which doesn't has the limb restriction). So thx for pointing that out. Could be relevant for build cooking^^


And I agree with the rest of what you have said about Multiweapon Fighting and Alter Self.

[Condé]

Extra claw attacks are granted from extra limbs. So you get two claw attacks when AS into thri-kreen, not four.

By this logic, would that means you don't get tail or wings attacks for example? I mean, these are "Extra limbs" technically.

[loky1109]

By this logic, would that means you don't get tail or wings attacks for example? I mean, these are "Extra limbs" technically.

Tail isn't limb, but wings yes, so no extra wing attacks.

[Rebel7284]

Tail isn't limb, but wings yes, so no extra wing attacks.

There are definitely some body parts that D&D creatures have where you gotta wonder if they count as limbs or not. Regardless, yeah, that's the most RAW answer for sure, and since this thread is marked as [RAW], we can go with that and ignore the RAI, which, as I mentioned above, pretty sure is meant to apply to manufactured weapons to screw over TWF/MWF builds. :smallsmile:

[Darg]

If they want to screw over the already underperforming T/MWF builds, then just screw all the builds that rely on getting more attacks. Shapechanging into a dragon is no longer as great for fighting huh?

[pabelfly]

If they want to screw over the already underperforming T/MWF builds, then just screw all the builds that rely on getting more attacks. Shapechanging into a dragon is no longer as great for fighting huh?

Two-Weapon Fighting is underwhelming but Multiweapon Fighting certainly isn't. If you can find a way to add a good amount of bonus damage to your attacks (sneak attack, Skirmish, etc) and you have pounce or an equivalent ability, you can do a huge amount of damage, even against enemies with decent DR.

[Darg]

Two-Weapon Fighting is underwhelming but Multiweapon Fighting certainly isn't. If you can find a way to add a good amount of bonus damage to your attacks (sneak attack, Skirmish, etc) and you have pounce or an equivalent ability, you can do a huge amount of damage, even against enemies with decent DR.

Except look at all the sources of extra attacks already. But hey, can't let the dippers have nice things. Oh well, potions of girallon's blessing already make it moot anyway.