Animate Dead at level 1 with Precocious Apprentice. Does this work?

[GuestEleven]

I'm pursuing a necromancer build, all of the forum threads and handbooks seem at odds about what the actual best approach is. There does seem to be a general consensus, however, that Dread Necromancer from HoH is great except for it not gaining access to the Animate Dead spell until they can cast fourth level spells compared to Cleric which gets it as a third level spell. I also noticed that the class Death Master, an arcane caster from Dragon Compendium, gains access to Animate Dead as a second level spell. Enter Precocious Apprentice from Complete Arcane; a feat which states you can choose a second level spell from a school of magic you have access to, you gain a second level spell slot which can only be used to cast the previously chosen spell. The feat doesn't require the spell to be on your spell list, it just requires it to be of a school you have access to. Beyond that, the feat doesn't explicitly say that the spell has to be arcane, but I think that may be pushing it a little.

Am I right about how this works or is this just a pipe dream?

[Maat Mons]

There have been some arguments about feats like this. The more classic example is Extra Spell (Complete Arcane, p79).

[GuestEleven]

There have been some arguments about feats like this.

In other words, DM discretion.

[RandomPeasant]

I do not think very many DMs would buy this sequence of interpretations. Versatile Spellcaster to get animate dead at 6th level is more plausible, though even that will lose you some people. If you want early access to undead, I would ask your DM if they'll allow you to create undead you can control with your Rebuking by some arbitrary mechanism, which gets you some mooks without tying the rules in knots or breaking the game.

[Zanos]

This typically requires flaws, but you can use Fell Animate to get zombies at level 1. You need a cantrip that deals damage and two levels worth of metamagic reduction. Easy Metamagic and Forceful Metamagic(-1 once per day, crap but useful for this specific purpose) are unconditional. That requires at least three feats at level 1, though.

Personally I think the best necromancer is Wizard, because Wizard got all the fun necromancer spells that came out in splats, and the necromancy spells they don't get don't really matter. Nor does your control limit, since Command Undead and Awaken Undead exist. But if you just want the earliest, non-cheesy access to necromancy, Death Master actually is a fairly good class if your campaign doesn't expect players to be pulling out all the stops.

[GuestEleven]

Death Master actually is a fairly good class if your campaign doesn't expect players to be pulling out all the stops.

You think so? It has some cool abilities and I love the fluff of it for sure. Maybe I need to comb over the spell list more thoroughly. I was just kind of disappointed that the big feature of the class is the free undead minion, but none of your feats or other abilities that affect undead you create, like corpsecrafter, will apply to the minion since it just kind of shows up with stock parts.

[GuestEleven]

Versatile Spellcaster to get animate dead at 6th level is more plausible

I don't understand this, can you elaborate? Versatile Spellcaste clearly states that you combine two spells of the same level to cast a spell one level higher that you know. Unless you're saying that "know"ing of a spell is the equivalent of actually knowing and being able to cast a spell. I suppose you could argue that case, but those are some incredibly shakey legs to stand on and it makes Precocious Apprentice very black and white looking by comparison.

That being said, that feat in and of itself is one I haven't come across before. Very nice, and thank you for bringing it to my attention.

[Zanos]

You think so? It has some cool abilities and I love the fluff of it for sure. Maybe I need to comb over the spell list more thoroughly. I was just kind of disappointed that the big feature of the class is the free undead minion, but none of your feats or other abilities that affect undead you create, like corpsecrafter, will apply to the minion since it just kind of shows up with stock parts.
The spell list isn't as good as a wizard of course, but most of it is just necromancy + inflict spells + someone went through the PHB and picked most of the good wizard spells.

The minion is kind of secondary. Frankly you should be able to animate something better than the minion as soon as you get to level 3.

[RandomPeasant]

I don't understand this, can you elaborate? Versatile Spellcaste clearly states that you combine two spells of the same level to cast a spell one level higher that you know. Unless you're saying that "know"ing of a spell is the equivalent of actually knowing and being able to cast a spell. I suppose you could argue that case, but those are some incredibly shakey legs to stand on and it makes Precocious Apprentice very black and white looking by comparison.

There's not really anything shaky about it. As a Dread Necromancer you know all the (Dread Necromancer) spells of a given level when you gain access to that level of spells. If you can cash in two 3rd level spell slots to cast a 4th level one, you have access to 4th level spells, and therefore know them. Certainly I probably wouldn't allow it, because accelerating casting progression like that gets into arms races you really don't want to deal with, but "I can learn this spell that appears on my list at one level at a different level" is even more so. I mean, what's the logical limit of that? Can a Wizard scribe a Trapsmith's 1st level haste from a scroll?

[GuestEleven]

There's not really anything shaky about it. As a Dread Necromancer you know all the (Dread Necromancer) spells of a given level when you gain access to that level of spells. If you can cash in two 3rd level spell slots to cast a 4th level one, you have access to 4th level spells, and therefore know them. Certainly I probably wouldn't allow it, because accelerating casting progression like that gets into arms races you really don't want to deal with, but "I can learn this spell that appears on my list at one level at a different level" is even more so. I mean, what's the logical limit of that? Can a Wizard scribe a Trapsmith's 1st level haste from a scroll?

Interesting argument, and I see what you're saying now. I would like to say that, by my reading, cashing in the lower level spells doesn't just give you a floating spell slot. It seems to me that it would just be fueling a spell you already know. You can't pay for something you can't purchase, which is to say you can't burn third level spells to power a fourth level spell that you don't have. That is my interpretation at least, and this is why I love 3.0/3.5/PF.

Your question regarding a wizard being able to scribe the 1st level haste from a trapsmith has me wondering. It seems tuat RAW he would be able to. I'm going to read more into that, I think what it would boil down to is if you learn the spell as it is or if you just learn the spell as the wizard spell of the appropriate level. It's not like you can learn spells not in your spell list through scrolls, right?

I would say Precocious Apprentice still makes sense in my eyes, not only given the spirit of the feat but there is also a bit of a fail-safe in the feat itself. If you apprenticed under a Death Master it makes sense that they would teach you that spell. But the feat states that once you obtain the ability to cast second level spells then you would immediately lose access to it. Conceptually strange, you would think that you would maintain knowledge of the spell. What are your thoughts?

[Arcanist]

This typically requires flaws, but you can use Fell Animate to get zombies at level 1.

Human Cleric can do this effectively out of the box. Fell Animate + Divine Metamagic (Fell Animate) at 1st level. A Zombie Mule for 15gp is kind of neat. 15 AC, DR 5/slashing, 2 extra HP average, another 5 extra from toughness, a whole lot of immunities. And if you want to give them a friend? A dog as well so you're at your control cap and have more defenders.

[AsuraKyoko]

Human Cleric can do this effectively out of the box. Fell Animate + Divine Metamagic (Fell Animate) at 1st level. A Zombie Mule for 15gp is kind of neat. 15 AC, DR 5/slashing, 2 extra HP average, another 5 extra from toughness, a whole lot of immunities. And if you want to give them a friend? A dog as well so you're at your control cap and have more defenders.

I generally use Cleric as my go-to necromancer. They just get most of the best undead-related necromancy spells, and they have built-in bonuses to reanimating stuff, like Desecrate.

[Fero]

I think your best bet for undead as a level 1 dread necro is to play an illumian with the Naen and Hoon sigils applied to fell animate.

[ciopo]

I'm pursuing a necromancer build, all of the forum threads and handbooks seem at odds about what the actual best approach is. There does seem to be a general consensus, however, that Dread Necromancer from HoH is great except for it not gaining access to the Animate Dead spell until they can cast fourth level spells compared to Cleric which gets it as a third level spell. I also noticed that the class Death Master, an arcane caster from Dragon Compendium, gains access to Animate Dead as a second level spell. Enter Precocious Apprentice from Complete Arcane; a feat which states you can choose a second level spell from a school of magic you have access to, you gain a second level spell slot which can only be used to cast the previously chosen spell. The feat doesn't require the spell to be on your spell list, it just requires it to be of a school you have access to. Beyond that, the feat doesn't explicitly say that the spell has to be arcane, but I think that may be pushing it a little.

Am I right about how this works or is this just a pipe dream?

FWIW, my interpretation is same as yours, it doens't specify that it has to be from your class list.
I also allow extra spell to picks pell from off the class list, considering it's fluff description specifically says wizard would use it to gain spell off list

In my experience at tables, most GM I've played with do not allow extra spell to pick spells from off the list, mostly courtesy thank to that faq that says no, in spite of the fluff description of the feat specifically saying wizards would use it to gain spells off list :)

I've remarked that precocious apprentice only mention same school on some iron chef build I've done, but I forgot which one (might have been on some other competition), might have been arcane duelist round but I'm not sure

[sreservoir]

I think your best bet for undead as a level 1 dread necro is to play an illumian with the Naen and Hoon sigils applied to fell animate.

It's easy to not notice, but a 1st-level illumian only has one sigil. You don't get a second sigil until "On attaining 2nd level in any class."