Goblins XIX: New Year, New Updates

[Keltest]

Discussion of the Goblins Comic (https://www.goblinscomic.com/). New post 1 with the new year.

Previous threads:

Goblins Thread 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53552)
Goblins I (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91562)
Goblins II (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119947)
GoblIIIns (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160611)
Goblins IV: Live Free or Die Horribly (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176739)
Goblins V: It's Hard-Kore! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184044)
Goblins VI: How Many Fingers Am I Holding Up? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195334)
Goblins VII: I'm TOTALLY Gonna Pee On This Thing! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212057)
Goblins VIII: This Thread Contains An Unexpected Variable (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225970)
Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245780)
Goblins X: Orcs fall, everybody dies (horribly) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260383)
Goblins XI: There ARE Goblins In This Comic, Right? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=281797)
Goblins XII: Your Home for Magical Limb Replacement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=302163%94)
Goblins XIII: Now With Goblins! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=318899)
Goblins XIV: Clerical Omission (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?335005-Goblins-XIV-Clerical-Omission)
Goblins XV: Klik Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?401556-Goblins-XV-Klik-Here)
Goblins XVI: Corrupted to the Kore (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?497311-Goblins-XVI-Corrupted-to-the-Kore&p=21095548#post21095548)
Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?569751-Goblins-XVII-The-shocking-end-of-the-story-arc)
Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?618941-Goblins-XVIII-Being-yourself-can-be-dangerous)


Current informations on Axe Of Prissan wielders:
Wielders of the Axe of Prissan
Starting with the most recent

Big Ears - Male Goblin Paladin. One of the protagonists of the story and current wielder of the axe.
Saral Caine* - Evil Male Half Stone Giant/Half Human. Ally of Dellyn Goblinslayer and minor antagonist in the Brassmoon arc.
Dri Featherknife (http://imageshack.us/a/img15/5051/lvez.jpg) - Female Human Rogue/Paladin. She was killed by Goblinslayer and Saral Caine after uncovering their plot to frame the sherrif of Brassmoon for murder.
Flejj Hillmover - Male Dwarf. He fought Kore twice and survived. His family was not so lucky. He shaved his beard in shame.

----

Felsibeth "Soot" Blackbringer (http://imageshack.us/a/img15/8921/oo1e.jpg) - Young Female Human Paladin. Youngest to ever wield the axe.
Kelstride Blackbringer - Male Human Paladin. Soot's Father. Former chimney sweep. Killed by a Kobold stampede.
Drose (http://imageshack.us/a/img440/234/l0qu.jpg) - Genderless Golem Paladin. Drose passed the Axe to Kelstride Blackbringer to prevent the demon imprisoned within from taking control of his body.
Eled of the East - "Fat, over confident" Paladin. Was given the axe by Myorg.
Mryorg (http://imageshack.us/a/img600/2522/c6kb.jpg)* - Evil Male Ogre. Beat (but did not kill) Vilias Red in combat and took the Axe from her. Used it to cause great suffering before eventually giving it to Elad purely to make the demon contained within suffer after coming so close to freedom.
Vilias Red (http://imageshack.us/a/img46/4160/8apn.jpg)* - Female Human Rogue. Was friends with Tivoth Fastfoot and took the axe after Tivoth died in battle with the intention of giving it to another Paladin.
Tivoth Fastfoot - Male Paladin. Encountered Vilias Red looting a corpse and assumed she had murdered the man. Once he realized she was innocent, the two became friends and traveled together.

----

Kevitch Gritland (http://imageshack.us/a/img853/1350/m797.jpg)* - Evil Male... formerly... Human maybe... Fighter/Wizard. Horribly mutated by an evil swamp. Killed Eldrock Cloudcry and claimed the axe as his own.
Eldrock Cloudcry - Known in name only.

-----

Cal (http://imageshack.us/a/img36/9210/cu92.jpg) - Male Gnome Paladin. Egotistic gambler. Had a powerful, icy magic effect.
Jelbin Crae - Male Human Paladin. Gave Cal the Axe willingly. Nothing else is known.

-----

Kore - Male Dwarf Paladin. Nigh-unstoppable genocide machine against all things that could conceivably be evil, including children. Currently has a speech impediment caused by the axe and rope. Chained and screaming souls as an IME. Created the axe, but may not have wielded it.


The Axe of Prissan is the second Prissan, a counterpart to the Hammer of Prissan which traps a great Good and is wielded by Evil. The third Prissan contains the damned.

*Confirmed non-Paladin

Individual Magic Effects (IME's)

One of the more frequent sources of confusion is what people are talking about when we're referring to IME's. Here is the comic's explaination of what they are. (http://www.goblinscomic.com/08042006/) And now you know.
Shield of Wonder Effects List
Shield of Wonder page 1
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2Foriginals%2F3e%2Fa 5%2F21%2F3ea521df2a4f09616eae66c2e98ccf51.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=66a91892f06c8697da8992f51091392143aea6577f3212 8dfdea6c292ceec85b&ipo=images

Shield of Wonder page 2
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2Foriginals%2F4a%2F4 d%2Ffc%2F4a4dfc70f4fe42f9f9a23748db6a228d.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=7b988bd3cced4a6904bde1b076841a77ffaa0f61c2e103 70f316e2e3343a1ff6&ipo=images

Shield of Wonder page 3
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c2/75/6a/c2756a59829382382935608bd3b93fa6.jpg

Shield of Wonder page 4
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2Foriginals%2F6f%2F2 c%2Ff2%2F6f2cf2b18046e0cd07d9dfa1a3321812.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=44c985964b089a0a2faf85499ade8560cde4a9bd9e38aa 10ff015a24574a0982&ipo=images

Shield of Wonder page 5
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2Foriginals%2F57%2F5 9%2F0f%2F57590f0cdbd76edd5586409044133035.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=01db72a5a1a3f1640b51e2724088ecb81032e2a383df25 840ec38176a5ad6e3f&ipo=images

Shield of Wonder page 6
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2Foriginals%2F71%2Fa 4%2Fc3%2F71a4c32758dc15f6f884ce859e177ccb.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=0e0b9ea27df27ed424964e8f7bbd550e95d98d5f86b789 3a27820cddc832efd5&ipo=images

Shield of Wonder page 7
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d5/21/cd/d521cd80e1e18815157fc34ca48e007c.jpg

Shield of Wonder page 8
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2Foriginals%2F53%2F9 e%2Fca%2F539eca44575498aebba634117c705042.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=f59c2c2db7aef6ea868a5cb2211407f47f8bcaec878be2 9cb93cfd9d035cc03a&ipo=images

Shield of Wonder page 9
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2Foriginals%2F34%2F4 7%2Fa2%2F3447a2d4b21e727e72a18557cdabdeea.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=3042c700bc61b28af7e73a411434122dea57eb68503873 df4bbfde26436629b5&ipo=images

[Fyraltari]

Hey wasn't there already a new thread for this comic? Did something happen or am I going crazy?

[Cygnia]

Mods closed it.

[Keltest]

There was, but it took a turn towards the inappropriate real fast. I got permission from the mods to restart it, without the parts that caused the trouble, and just used the same number.

[tomaO2]

Inappropriate?

Nothing discussed in that thread hadn't been discussed at length before. I really don't get this one at all.

[Keltest]

At any rate, seems like theres been a new update since then, unless I managed to miss this one somehow. Not gonna lie, I could do without the eyeballs on the mushrooms.

[Taevyr]

Inappropriate?

Nothing discussed in that thread hadn't been discussed at length before. I really don't get this one at all.

Same, particularly since it was locked, closed and removed without any warnings whatsoever aside from "has been closed". Seems a bit much, as they could at least remind us on what we ought to avoid in this one.


Either way, we have Goblins in the GoblinsComic again! And trypophobia mushrooms, which honestly isn't surprising at all for this universe.

[Kantaki]

At any rate, seems like theres been a new update since then, unless I managed to miss this one somehow. Not gonna lie, I could do without the eyeballs on the mushrooms.

Better eyes than teeth.
Though I guess those might come out later.:smallamused:

[Taevyr]

Better eyes than teeth.
Though I guess those might come out later.:smallamused:

As long as they don't combine the two. Though having the mushroom pupils suddenly grow into sabretooth-worthy canines wouldn't be off-brand in the slightest.

[Gez]

As long as they don't combine the two.

I take it you don't play Terraria. Eyes turning into mouths is kind of a running theme in there...

[Keltest]

I take it you don't play Terraria. Eyes turning into mouths is kind of a running theme in there...

Can't say I love it there either.

[Dragonus45]

Inappropriate?

Nothing discussed in that thread hadn't been discussed at length before. I really don't get this one at all.

Making a thread title dedicated to a personal attack against the author probably did it if I had to guess.

[Anonymouswizard]

Making a thread title dedicated to a personal attack against the author probably did it if I had to guess.

I really should have put that bloody suggestion in blue text. It was supposed to be a joke, for Herbert's sake it was a bloody URL, but obviously it was too believable.


Anyway, the comic. How long is it going to be until these two are cuddling together next to a campfire? I'm guessing about four hours after bedtime on their first night out of the dungeon.

[Emperor Time]

Wouldn't be surprised if you eat one of those eyes mushrooms that it either horribly mutates you, kills you or both.

[Morgaln]

Wouldn't be surprised if you eat one of those eyes mushrooms that it either horribly mutates you, kills you or both.

Or you grow eyes in your intestines that allow you to have your personal colonoscopy whenever you choose. I'm only half joking...

[Gez]

Anyway, the comic. How long is it going to be until these two are cuddling together next to a campfire? I'm guessing about four hours after bedtime on their first night out of the dungeon.

I doubt they'll wait that long; it's probably going to happen while they're still in the dungeon.

Partly because they won't be out of this dungeon before the year 2034 at the earliest.

[Anonymouswizard]

I doubt they'll wait that long; it's probably going to happen while they're still in the dungeon.

Partly because they won't be out of this dungeon before the year 2034 at the earliest.

I dunno, I think we've had the penultimate confrontation with Kore. The question is if this dungeon is going to have the entrance to hell or if they're going to have to go through another thirty two puzzles in a different dungeon.

[Vinyadan]

Taking a look at the Twitter feed, on the 30th of December...


I should let you all know, last week I caught an infection on my right ear. It spread across my face, neck and head. Our local hospital helicoptered me to the city hospital, where I've been for 2 days. They've suspected it might be Necrotizing Fasciitis. The Flesh Eating Disease.

It wasn't that, but there was a night, and antibiotics were administered. The affected flesh is described as unphotographable, which may sound odd given the oversharing, but I think the photos on the accounts are mostly meant to look attractive, and this one wouldn't be.

I guess the page had been preuploaded and scheduled, or Danielle took care of it? It's actually a bit difficult for me to piece the dates together, as I'm not sure about which timestamps Twitter or RSS uses (local time of posting or viewing). For what I gather, one night was spent at the hospital, and that might have been when the comic updated.

Anyway, on to the comic... at first sight, I found the page confusing, because the lighting makes no difference between interiors and exteriors, so I thought the goblins had finally got out of the dungeon. Also, the door in panel 1 looked like a column on a pedestal.

What I like is that, according to precedent, the details in the page will probably have a function. Maybe not the mushrooms, but the pedestal to the right must mean something, and it has an insect on it. The skull-cave's eyeholes could be an entrance way for nasties, or be somehow connected to the mushrooms. The flowers might also have odd properties (or simply be one of those single-cave species, although I don't see Goblins taking this approach, as it's not very Monster Manual).

I don't like the IME colours around the speech balloons. They aren't even consistent, as Vorpal's colour has to be outside because it's white, so it's distracting.

By the way, I was thinking about the prophecy "when the serpent becomes the prey, love will fuel hate and friends will become enemies": is it possible that it already was fullfilled when MM grabbed Kin's leash? He got a hold of her (the serpent became his prey) through the leash because of his attachment to her, which made her repulsed of him (love fueled hate) and Kin placed herself in a team of Kins characterised by distrust towards MM (friends became enemies).

[Keltest]

The big crystal stand in the corner reminds me of the teleport pads from Steven Universe.

[Cygnia]

By the way, I was thinking about the prophecy "when the serpent becomes the prey, love will fuel hate and friends will become enemies": is it possible that it already was fullfilled when MM grabbed Kin's leash? He got a hold of her (the serpent became his prey) through the leash because of his attachment to her, which made her repulsed of him (love fueled hate) and Kin placed herself in a team of Kins characterised by distrust towards MM (friends became enemies).

Not wangsty enough

[Morgaln]

By the way, I was thinking about the prophecy "when the serpent becomes the prey, love will fuel hate and friends will become enemies": is it possible that it already was fullfilled when MM grabbed Kin's leash? He got a hold of her (the serpent became his prey) through the leash because of his attachment to her, which made her repulsed of him (love fueled hate) and Kin placed herself in a team of Kins characterised by distrust towards MM (friends became enemies).

We've seen that prophecy three times:

First was Young and Beatiful when fighting Forgath. (https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/12142005)
Second was the talking wall in Brassmoon. (https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/12082009/)
Third was Fumbles after the teller ceremony. (https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-21)

The first two times, it was worded as "when the serpent becomes your prey." The last time, it was "when the serpent becomes his prey." Both Y&B and the talking wall were speaking to Forgath, Fumbles was talking to Minmax. So the your/his has to refer to Forgath. The most likely interpretation is that Forgath will eventually, for whatever reason, attack Kin. Minmax will side with Kin and fight Forgath ("friends will become enemies") and will hate Forgath for hurting/killing Kin ("love will fuel hate")

Also, the third time the prophecy was spoken (by Fumbles), it happened after the Maze of Many, so it would have been a prophecy of something that had already happened if your theory was correct.

[BaronOfHell]

I agree it could have been fulfilled if it wasn't because in comics like these we're explicitly told when previous plot points are coming to a close with characters quoting what they heard before or something similar. At least that is my impression.

Compared to OotS when V's oracle prophecy came to pass, we were never reminded of it.

[Devlerbat]

The big crystal stand in the corner reminds me of the teleport pads from Steven Universe.

It even looks like it has a sticker on it like what was put on the broken pads (which this seems to be).

[-D-]

NGL, Discussion about comic is often more interesting than the comic itself.

[Kish]

Those "hitting the Shield of Wonder" rules are so needlessly complicated. There are already very simple rules for determining if an attack hits the defender's shield, Elli. It makes no sense for the defender to be able to make it more likely: they're already trying as hard as they can to make attacks hit their shield, that's what a shield's for. And "if you're not trying to block attacks with your shield then you don't have the shield equipped" needs neither spelling out nor special rules for it, either.

[Anonymouswizard]

Those "hitting the Shield of Wonder" rules are so needlessly complicated. There are already very simple rules for determining if an attack hits the defender's shield, Elli. It makes no sense for the defender to be able to make it more likely: they're already trying as hard as they can to make attacks hit their shield, that's what a shield's for. And "if you're not trying to block attacks with your shield then you don't have the shield equipped" needs neither spelling out nor special rules for it, either.

I couldn't bare to read one sentence. The tools for this are right in front of you, and if you want to include a reminder of how to do this it's about two sentences.

'If an attack roll misses by less than the defenders shield bonus then the attacker has struck the shield. A defender may declare on their turn that they are not actively using their shield, thus forgoing the shield A but ensuring an attacker will not unintentionally hit their shield*.'

* If an attacker wishes to intentionally strike a shield refer to Hitting a Held Object.

Now sure, it gets a bit more complex if you're also wearing electrified armour, but it's still just tracking AC thresholds. Reinventing the wheel is fun, but it's no use to make the rims hexagons.

[Vinyadan]

The question is if this dungeon is going to have the entrance to hell

You know, this could also connect to the prophecy.

Forgath reminds Kin that she could summon Grinnorarcen, give him the axe, and have him carry it to hell. Kin doesn't want to, because she promised a specific use for the name, and she's obviously against that sort of enslavement. Forgath decides that saving the world is more important, and tries to grab her leash to force her to order Grinnorarcen to bring the Axe to hell. Minmax then becomes Forgath's enemy.

Two problems: Forgath is chaotic, and Minmax did the same thing in the past for much lesser reasons, so he might be more horrified than enraged.

[Yuki Akuma]

Those "hitting the Shield of Wonder" rules are so needlessly complicated. There are already very simple rules for determining if an attack hits the defender's shield, Elli. It makes no sense for the defender to be able to make it more likely: they're already trying as hard as they can to make attacks hit their shield, that's what a shield's for. And "if you're not trying to block attacks with your shield then you don't have the shield equipped" needs neither spelling out nor special rules for it, either.

I hope one day Elipsis gets to actually play Dungeons and Dragons.

[WanderingMist]

I read through the whole archive a couple years ago. Can't remember much of it. Checked on it a couple days ago due to this thread and while still not a fan of the artstyle, I will say I find that juxtaposition of free will vs omniscient determinism interesting. I'm assuming it's been proposed before by some scientist and is not actually a new thought by the author.

[137beth]

You know, this could also connect to the prophecy.

Forgath reminds Kin that she could summon Grinnorarcen, give him the axe, and have him carry it to hell. Kin doesn't want to, because she promised a specific use for the name, and she's obviously against that sort of enslavement. Forgath decides that saving the world is more important, and tries to grab her leash to force her to order Grinnorarcen to bring the Axe to hell. Minmax then becomes Forgath's enemy.

Two problems: Forgath is chaotic, and Minmax did the same thing in the past for much lesser reasons, so he might be more horrified than enraged.

That sounds...oddly plausible? But I think what will trigger Forgath to attack Kin will be something much bigger.

[Kish]

Can someone who knows Grinnarorcen's name summon him, or only command him if he's already there?

In either case, I suspect Elli means Forgath at this point to be too heroic to try to enslave Grinnarorcen, much less Kin.

[Anarchic Fox]

Same, particularly since it was locked, closed and removed without any warnings whatsoever aside from "has been closed". Seems a bit much, as they could at least remind us on what we ought to avoid in this one.

Here's the sheriff's (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?653008-Reason-for-thread-deletion) explanation. I guess there were just too many Warnings in too short a period.

[Vinyadan]

Can someone who knows Grinnarorcen's name summon him, or only command him if he's already there?

Having reread the page, it's mentioned that, once in Hell, he's free, so I guess not really. In a way, it's both better and worse this way. It's better, because the characters won't need to do something nasty and character-breaking to save the world (although I think a good writer could do something interesting with it). It's worse, because Ear's idea of going to Hell, without a way to do so ever having been shown, feels ungrounded and Quixotic. I think Ears is paying for the fact that he was supposed to die at the start, and his role was supposed to be played by the quirky Vorpal, who would have used the axe thanks to his paladinic 1/13 (?).

[Morgaln]

Edit: Actually, I think what I was saying was violating forum rules, so I am removing it.

[Taevyr]

Here's the sheriff's (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?653008-Reason-for-thread-deletion) explanation. I guess there were just too many Warnings in too short a period.

Thanks for that: not the most informative response, but then again there's little more to be said than that.

[Daywalker1983]

Plush becoming Solid when happy bodes Well for Ears...

[Cygnia]

Happy? In Goblins? Yeah, that won't last...

[Vinyadan]

Why does Thac0 look so disdainful while talking about happy hard people?

[Kish]

Thaco has been disdainful of happiness since his very first appearance.

[Dragonus45]

Thaco has been disdainful of happiness since his very first appearance.

And given his age...

[Kantaki]

Why does Thac0 look so disdainful while talking about happy hard people?

Isn't that how he always looks?
Pretty much his neutral face.

[Anonymouswizard]

Plush becoming Solid when happy bodes Well for Ears...

He's talked to his Cleric, and it's apparently perfectly normal for a monster his age.

And yes, I give it a year or two until we get a panel of Big Ears curled up in Plush's big wings.

[Daywalker1983]

Why does Thac0 look so disdainful while talking about happy hard people?

Maybe He is not All that often ha... Happy anymore?

[Vinyadan]

Clap your hands, children! Clap your hands, or Thac0 will sink in the Mire of Sadness!

Edit: it took me weeks before I understood what the previous comments actually meant :smalltongue:

[Vinyadan]

New page! (https://i.imgur.com/baYxFWt.mp4)

(there really is a new page).

[Yuki Akuma]

That was honestly kinda cute.

Big Ears and/or Plush are going to die horribly at some point, aren't they?

[Fyraltari]

New page! (https://i.imgur.com/baYxFWt.mp4)

Wait, I thought the whole "teapot" thing was something Ellipsis came up with. Is it a reference to something?

[tyckspoon]

That was honestly kinda cute.

Big Ears and/or Plush are going to die horribly at some point, aren't they?

Everybody is going to die horribly sooner or later, it's kinda one of the comic's Things... which makes me wonder just how bad Dies Horribly's expected fate must be in order for that to be his oracle-decreed actual name.

[Yuki Akuma]

Wait, I thought the whole "teapot" thing was something Ellipsis came up with. Is it a reference to something?

It's... a song from the 1930s that turned into an incredibly popular nursery rhyme?

[Fyraltari]

It's... a song from the 1930s that turned into an incredibly popular nursery rhyme?

Thanks, good to know.

[halfeye]

Wait, I thought the whole "teapot" thing was something Ellipsis came up with. Is it a reference to something?


It's... a song from the 1930s that turned into an incredibly popular nursery rhyme?

It was worse than that, it was a song that was used in infants school, there was this whole activity with one hand on your hip with your arm as the handle, and the other arm sideways with a bend in it as the spout, then you had to keep them like that and bend sideways for the "pour me out" bit. It was supposed to be an exercise routine I think.

[Murk]

...which makes me wonder just how bad Dies Horribly's expected fate must be in order for that to be his oracle-decreed actual name.

I think Dies Horribly supposedly already died horribly when killed by the demons in that one dungeon twenty years ago, and then came back to life, so his prophecy has already been fulfilled.

(Though I might be confusing it with Forgath who was also prophecized to die horribly, and then he did and came back to life too?)

Personally I would think Dies Horribly's prophecy has not been fulfilled yet because that was his whole shtick and without it he doesn't really have any character arc or narrative purpose left.
But then again Goblins' character arcs have never been really clear to me. I'm still very confused about Elli considering Chief's character arc to be "completed" (after which he came back into the story anyway, so... I don't know, man).

[sihnfahl]

(Though I might be confusing it with Forgath who was also prophecized to die horribly, and then he did and came back to life too?)

Forgath was prophesied to die at the hands of another dwarf. Painfully.

Everyone took it to mean Kore.

It was Idle. (https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-3-2019)

[Fyraltari]

It was worse than that, it was a song that was used in infants school, there was this whole activity with one hand on your hip with your arm as the handle, and the other arm sideways with a bend in it as the spout, then you had to keep them like that and bend sideways for the "pour me out" bit. It was supposed to be an exercise routine I think.

How did anyone construe that as exercise?

[sihnfahl]

How did anyone construe that as exercise?
Looking up the history, it was supposed to train how to do a dance routine.

I don't think it's 'exercise' per se, but more of a means to work with coordination and moving with the rhythm.

[Fyraltari]

Looking up the history, it was supposed to train how to do a dance routine.

I don't think it's 'exercise' per se, but more of a means to work with coordination and moving with the rhythm.

Ah, okay, that makes more sense already.

[Vinyadan]

Personally I would think Dies Horribly's prophecy has not been fulfilled yet because that was his whole shtick and without it he doesn't really have any character arc or narrative purpose left.
But then again Goblins' character arcs have never been really clear to me. I'm still very confused about Elli considering Chief's character arc to be "completed" (after which he came back into the story anyway, so... I don't know, man).

Personally, I feel Dies got a good arc exactly because he doesn't have a role left; his story has been told.

It also has a fairly readable structure. First part: home. At the warcamp, Dies is relatively safe and among friends, but a nervous wreck because of the prophecy. This starting balance is broken when MM & Co. attack the camp. Dies is then pushed into the second part, the adventure proper, where he has to survive in the hands of the Viper clan. During this part he meets allies and enemies and gains new powers and skills; he also solves his inner problems by surviving the prophecy. The third and final part has him empowered to defeat the Viper Clan and become physically whole again, restoring the balance.

What I don't like about this is that he actually still has a role left, hunting down the green monster, because his hand is one of two things known to hurt it greatly (the other one being the blade in the dungeon, which Grem may or may not have already recovered, I don't remember if he had it when he got out). I mean, I would have rather left him where he was. But a new team-up with Grem could be interesting, if Fox is also there.

Chief, instead, in spite of what the author said, didn't seem to have an actual arc to me. I mean, this would be his third part: in the first part, he is a leader ashamed of himself and his clan, who runs away instead of helping his goblins; in the second part (Brassmoon) he actually is risking his own hide to save one of his goblins and starts to join combat (during this chapter, he should have had his moment of defiance where he showed he wasn't ashamed of the clan any more); the third part should be his most dangerous one, but which he faces while already having the tools to win. Durkon's vampire arc could have been an example, in the sense that it's not an arc if the character has no agency, even if soul-trapped by a two-legged monster.
Instead, apparently, his arc was written as a linear crescendo in bravery until his death, and that was it. But that's just character growth, and actual arcs are generally represented as differring levels of tension (stakes) interspersed with moments of pause, recollection, and loss or acquirement instead.

[Murk]

Personally, I feel Dies got a good arc exactly because he doesn't have a role left; his story has been told.

Yea, that's largely what I meant. He's done, and there's really no reason character-wise to continue his story. Even more so because it still doesn't tie in to the other character's stories at all. Maybe now that Forgat has been clickified...?

But eh. We'll see.

[Kish]

Chief's arc: recognizing that he was never qualified to be chief, stopping upholding Young-and-Beautiful's fiction that he was, and dying heroically, saving his people the only way he could, as he was never going to be a positive for them as a living chief.

Dies-Horribly: died horribly when the demon attempted to take his soul. Letter and spirit of the prophecy fulfilled. Unless someone somewhere said "you will die horribly twice," that's it; whatever does or doesn't happen to him in the future, the prophecy will have nothing to do with it.

Forgath: died with a lot of screaming at the hands of the dwarf Idle. Letter and spirit of the prophecy fulfilled. Unless someone somewhere said "you will die twice at the hands of another dwarf," etc.

"When the serpent becomes your prey, friends will become enemies and love will fuel hate." Prophecy still extant.

Ongoing reasons for Dies-Horribly to be in the comic: The same as literally any other character. Complains-Of-Names doesn't have no reason to exist when he's not complaining about names, nor does Thaco only exist when wishing it was a previous edition.

Elli's obsession with GRIMDARK may make any of these worse writing than it otherwise could be, as with the entirely gratuitous indication that Chief is being tortured in slow time.

[Fyraltari]

The spirit of a prophecy of death is that it is the end of your life, though. What's the point of predicting someone's death if they come back to life afterward?

[Cygnia]

The spirit of a prophecy of death is that it is the end of your life, though. What's the point of predicting someone's death if they come back to life afterward?

More torturous wangst of course!

[Kish]

The spirit of a prophecy of death is that it is the end of your life, though.
In a fantasy world with established resurrection, I disagree utterly. And of all the legitimate or illegitimate criticisms that can be leveled at Elli, that one is equally applicable (or inapplicable, as the case may be) to Rich Burlew (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0333.html), you do realize.

[Keltest]

In a fantasy world with established resurrection, I disagree utterly. And of all the legitimate or illegitimate criticisms that can be leveled at Elli, that one is equally applicable (or inapplicable, as the case may be) to Rich Burlew (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0333.html), you do realize.

Unless youre trying to suggest that Rich is somehow beyond criticism himself, I dont know what point you think youre making here.

[Fyraltari]

In a fantasy world with established resurrection, I disagree utterly. And of all the legitimate or illegitimate criticisms that can be leveled at Elli, that one is equally applicable (or inapplicable, as the case may be) to Rich Burlew (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0333.html), you do realize.

Yes. I have said before that I find both of Durkon's prophecies to be lacking.

[Kish]

Yes. I have said before that I find both of Durkon's prophecies to be lacking.Well at least that's consistency, but as long as you read fantasy webcomics set in worlds with established resurrection and parse "die" into "die and not come back," y'should be prepared for disappointment.

[Fyraltari]

Well at least that's consistency, but as long as you read fantasy webcomics set in worlds with established resurrection and parse "die" into "die and not come back," y'should be prepared for disappointment.

Thing is, characters in these webcomics agree with me. None of them ever hear the prophecy and go "Heh, I'll just have a buddy resurrect me." Everyone understand them as being about their actual death, because of course they do. It loses all its weight otherwise.

[Kish]

Thing is, characters in these webcomics agree with me. None of them ever hear the prophecy and go "Heh, I'll just have a buddy resurrect me." Everyone understand them as being about their actual death, because of course they do. It loses all its weight otherwise.
Tosh. "We know Durkon's going to die at some point before he goes to the dwarven lands" shaped people's expectations for OotS right up until Durkon actually died, even though nearly everyone on the forum immediately understood that, contrary to what Durkon himself thought, no way he was staying down. It's been quite a while since I read the Goblins forum but when I did no one there expected Dies-Horribly to actually die and stay dead either.

And whatever you think Durkon and Roy thinking Durkon would stay dead counts for, I continue to think you're putting way too much weight on "they thought it" and way too little on "they were demonstrably wrong." Do you have any examples of a webcomic character who's thought that a prophecy of death, with no further verbiage, meant permanent death and been right?

(Belkar will probably stay dead, but I say that solely because the Oracle did take the time to spell out that it would be Belkar's last breath ever. Because the Oracle understands that the mere prediction of "he'll die, now I stop talking" would not logically indicate Belkar was going to stay dead.)

[Keltest]

Tosh. "We know Durkon's going to die at some point before he goes to the dwarven lands" shaped people's expectations for OotS right up until Durkon actually died, even though nearly everyone on the forum immediately understood that, contrary to what Durkon himself thought, no way he was staying down. It's been quite a while since I read the Goblins forum but when I did no one there expected Dies-Horribly to actually die and stay dead either.

And whatever you think Durkon and Roy thinking Durkon would stay dead counts for, I continue to think you're putting way to much weight on "they thought it" and way too little on "they were demonstrably wrong." Do you have any examples of a webcomic character who's thought that a prophecy of death, with no further verbiage, meant permanent death and been right?

(Belkar will probably stay dead, but I say that solely because the Oracle did take the time to spell out that it would be Belkar's last breath ever. Because the Oracle understands that the mere prediction of "he'll die, now I stop talking" would not logically indicate Belkar was going to stay dead.)

Im not sure that arguing that Roy and Durkon were basically angsting over nothing (or celebrating, in Durkon's case) thinking that Durkon was going to stay dead is doing much to undermine the idea that a death prophecy where the subject doesnt stay dead is functionally worthless, both from a watsonian and doyalistic perspective.

[Dragonus45]

The spirit of a prophecy of death is that it is the end of your life, though. What's the point of predicting someone's death if they come back to life afterward?

It's an example of how prophy works in tricky ways with vague and unclear meanings.

[Anarchic Fox]

(summary of character arcs)

That's a good summary, but it reveals that Ellipsis relies way too much on prophecies for foreshadowing.

[Vinyadan]

The spirit of a prophecy of death is that it is the end of your life, though. What's the point of predicting someone's death if they come back to life afterward?

In the case of Goblins, powerful divine magic seems to be pretty rare (even Kore is just a paladin). None of the goblins who died at the warcamp came back, and, of the 7 humanoid PCs we have seen dead, only Forgath came back. Even Saral Caine seemed to be considered dead for good by GS, in spite of the vast resources he had available. And IIRC MM and Forgath do not consider the possibility of GS being resurrected, when they discuss killing him.

Of course, it's a weird world, and so Dies did not stay dead because of a faulty assumption by a demon that mistakenly got two souls while buying one, while Forgath gets a special (and, possibly, botched) resurrection from the Klicks.

Recursive death is also a rare, yet real possibility, and it has been featured prominently. We have seen it in the Maze of Many and for souls sold to the demons. Before the contract went wrong, Dies actually expected his prophecy to mean that he would spend eternity being killed over and over again by the demons.

For example, I don't expect Chief to come back to life. He probably will be freed, but that's about it. On the other hand, Pawlusz did come back to life after he was chopped off from Kore's body, so the comic seems to actually allow Chief to be resurrected.

About OotS, it's probably worth observing that even Durkon wasn't sad when he heard the prophecy. He emotionally sidestepped the issue of being dead, the same way a reader of the PH could have for different reasons. And, by the time the prophecy came to fruition, Durkon wasn't really what was at stake any more, it was about the world, and Pseudurkon was actively working first for the bad guys, and then for other bad guys.

About overuse of prophecy, I wouldn't call it overuse, as much as one of the bedrocks that make Goblins what it is. It's funny and absurd at the start (what sort of prophecy is "Complains of Names"?), but it also has deeper implications concerning traditionalism and the fight against socially assigned roles that mix with destiny. Take Chief's story, a sham, or Fox's story. The Vipers deliberately avoid it, setting themselves apart from the rest. And it can be used defensively, by foreseeing what is going to strike the camp, but, while useful, this makes it even more inescapable.
With MM and Forgath, I think it's more in line with the typical death prophecy that adds some tragic tension to the story. But they also decide the GAP is going to destroy the world because they found the white terror prophecy (or propaganda?) and let their actions be decided from it.

[Anarchic Fox]

About overuse of prophecy, I wouldn't call it overuse, as much as one of the bedrocks that make Goblins what it is. It's funny and absurd at the start (what sort of prophecy is "Complains of Names"?), but it also has deeper implications concerning traditionalism and the fight against socially assigned roles that mix with destiny. Take Chief's story, a sham, or Fox's story. The Vipers deliberately avoid it, setting themselves apart from the rest. And it can be used defensively, by foreseeing what is going to strike the camp, but, while useful, this makes it even more inescapable.
With MM and Forgath, I think it's more in line with the typical death prophecy that adds some tragic tension to the story. But they also decide the GAP is going to destroy the world because they found the white terror prophecy (or propaganda?) and let their actions be decided from it.

That's a good point. I dislike the trope overall, so I missed that Ellipsis' take on it is an unusually methodical one.

[Anonymouswizard]

Maybe there never was a prophecy related to his death, and goblin fortune tellers are bad at spelling.

He was at the warcamp because he's no longer allowed to make clothes.

[tomandtish]

The spirit of a prophecy of death is that it is the end of your life, though. What's the point of predicting someone's death if they come back to life afterward?

Except that in most fiction prophecies almost never mean what people think they mean. There's usually a twist, a loophole, or an unlooked meaning. Straightforward prophecies with no ambiguity are definitely in the minority.

[Willie the Duck]

The spirit of a prophecy of death is that it is the end of your life, though. What's the point of predicting someone's death if they come back to life afterward?

Fundamentally, at least for me, I think this is more of an issue with what semi-reliable resurrections do to narratives in general (which is to say, this is where I lay the blame). Defeat the bad guy? Well, they can always come back. Friend dead? Don't grieve, get your rear in gear and get them back alive. Assassinate the king? Well then, three days later he might congratulate you on the impressive attempt and offer you a job. If you throw in rejuvenation or other life-span defeats and then you have to rebuilt why at least the rich and powerful ever plan on dying; removing things like impressive statues and graves for lords of long ago, princes(ses) waiting to inherent the throne, or historical events lost to time (since the people who were there are still around, although then this opens up the question of how many memories a mind can hold).

[Morgaln]

Fundamentally, at least for me, I think this is more of an issue with what semi-reliable resurrections do to narratives in general (which is to say, this is where I lay the blame). Defeat the bad guy? Well, they can always come back. Friend dead? Don't grieve, get your rear in gear and get them back alive. Assassinate the king? Well then, three days later he might congratulate you on the impressive attempt and offer you a job. If you throw in rejuvenation or other life-span defeats and then you have to rebuilt why at least the rich and powerful ever plan on dying; removing things like impressive statues and graves for lords of long ago, princes(ses) waiting to inherent the throne, or historical events lost to time (since the people who were there are still around, although then this opens up the question of how many memories a mind can hold).

I've never considered this, but you just gave me a thought. In a world like the Forgotten Realms, where powerful casters are a dime a dozen, the only reason why there is a royal succession at all must be that whoever succeds a king is not willing to dole out the cash to have the king resurrected. Which has certain implications on who is most likely to actually inherit in the long run...

---

Anyway, on topic:
Dies Horribly's story is nowhere near over. If we go by a classic three-act story, he just finished the second act: he faced his main antagonist (Junior) for the first time; he was defeated and lost a friend (Klik). His arm was lost (again) and replaced with a new one that we know can be used as a weapon against Junior. What's missing is the third act, where Dies becomes proactive, goes to fight the villain of his story and triumphs.

As for Cheif, I never considered his story to be over. He had barely begun showing courage and atoning for his previous cowardice. The whole Brassmoon arc was mostly just him trying to survive; he never showed real heroism, as opposed to the other goblins. He never really faced any of his demons (not his cowardice nor his unwillingness to be chief). Also, he was the only one who noticed that Saral Caine wore a belt that looked like his crown; a plot point that never went anywhere (yet, at least). There was a lot going on that was just cut off when he died. Note that killing Chief, especially in a heroic sacrifice, is a fitting end to his arc, but he would have needed an arc to begin with. Just as an example: imagine Chief confessing to hiding while the goblins he was supposed to lead were dying. Imagine him and Complains having a falling-out over this. Then Chief sacrifices himself and marks Complains as the future chief before dying in his arms. Suddenly, that scene is so much more meaningful; it's chief, in his death, saying "you were right and I was wrong." But this would have required more time to actually establish a full arc for Chief.
To this day, I believe Chief died purely for meta reasons; Elli wanted no clerics in the current dungeon, as they would have trivialized the lol pearl trap. She wanted Complains to be chief and Fumbles to be teller and neither would have worked with Chief still around, so she needed to get rid of him.

[Anarchic Fox]

Good analysis, Morgaln. Let me also point out that not all characters need to have arcs. Back in classical Greek plays, only the protagonist and deuteragonist did.

[Willie the Duck]

I've never considered this, but you just gave me a thought. In a world like the Forgotten Realms, where powerful casters are a dime a dozen, the only reason why there is a royal succession at all must be that whoever succeds a king is not willing to dole out the cash to have the king resurrected. Which has certain implications on who is most likely to actually inherit in the long run...

Yeah, it's one of the issues with Fantasy -- some of the magic that occurs in fantasy would logically negate some of the medieval tropes we also expect them to include. Some of those are easy to at least paper over -- put a few ballista on top of every castle and you say 'yeah, they know flying creatures don't care about walls.' Others change things fundamentally, and you either have to quietly ignore them and hope your audience does as well, or produce (a whole lot of) in-universe explanations (such as in Girl Genius, where royals who get resurrected lose their claims to titles specifically to prevent this chaos).


Good analysis, Morgaln. Let me also point out that not all characters need to have arcs. Back in classical Greek plays, only the protagonist and deuteragonist did.
This is absolutely true. And if Dies was a simple supporting character (let's say this was a typical five-man-band (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FiveManBand) and it was the Leader, Lancer, and Antagonists who got to develop, while Dies the Heart, Brain, or Brawn), this would work really well. It would be weird though, for him not to have an arc, given that for most of the time we've known him he has effectively been the protagonist of a side-plot. Fortunately, he has had an arc, it's just not (at this point) a classic three-act story. Since we're pointing things out, I'll point out that classic three-act stories aren't a requirement, just a trend. If Dies does all he needs to do in 2 or even one-and-a-half acts (say, we cut away from him mid-climax of act two, but it really works in a 'you don't always get to find out what happens' way), then that is fine. Breaking the 'rules' of storytelling work when they are really well done. I don't feel that that is specifically true with this case, though, and I hope we do see an end to Dies' sub-plot at some point (before the end, circa 2035).

[Dragonus45]

I've never considered this, but you just gave me a thought. In a world like the Forgotten Realms, where powerful casters are a dime a dozen, the only reason why there is a royal succession at all must be that whoever succeds a king is not willing to dole out the cash to have the king resurrected. Which has certain implications on who is most likely to actually inherit in the long run...

---


A lot of setting with that kind of magic easily at hand tend to just work it into the rules of succession in some way to compensate. Usually a rule that says you get removed from the line of succession when dead or somesuch.

[sihnfahl]

A lot of setting with that kind of magic easily at hand tend to just work it into the rules of succession in some way to compensate. Usually a rule that says you get removed from the line of succession when dead or somesuch.
Kind of like in Girl Genius? Where someone who's undergone a rejuv is out of the line of succession?

[Keltest]

In the Realms at least, it doesnt necessarily need to be codified in law. If the king was popular or otherwise well liked, the current king might abdicate to allow them to rule until they die of old age or get sick of it. If they were incompetent or unpopular, there wont be enough support for a civil war or anything, so they just send them off to a retirement home or wherever. The desire for the throne of the heir also has a strong impact on whether the previous king gets resurrected if he is killed before his time.

[Vinyadan]

I think prophecies in ancient stories also deal with what is impossible for men, like knowing the future or preventing destiny. It's like searching for immortality, in the end it's not going to work (see Achilles and Gilgamesh).

So you have incomprehensible prophecies that are built like ambiguous puzzles that can be completed in many ways and with different meanings, so that it's like not having received them at all, or rueful prophecies like "he will kill his father" that men can't manage to prevent.


I hope we do see an end to Dies' sub-plot at some point (before the end, circa 2035).

At the current rate, I think that would be less than 200 pages. I don't feel it's enough for a conclusion. Then again, prophecieeees... :wink:

[ZhonLord]

I hope we do see an end to Dies' sub-plot at some point (before the end, circa 2035).

Technically his name should now be Died Horribly, unless you subscribe to the idea that his name actually means "horrible at dying".

[Silly Name]

I've never considered this, but you just gave me a thought. In a world like the Forgotten Realms, where powerful casters are a dime a dozen, the only reason why there is a royal succession at all must be that whoever succeds a king is not willing to dole out the cash to have the king resurrected. Which has certain implications on who is most likely to actually inherit in the long run...

In a forum post on Candlekeep, which I won't link and advise againts seeking out due to... other stuff in that post, Ed Greenwood explained that most countries in the Realms prohibit resurrected monarchs from claiming the throne back: you died, your heir became king, no take backsies.

[Traab]

Too be fair, in forgotten realms, resurrection magic is super duper high end stuff. Its not something every tom **** or abbot can cast, so yeah, even for kings, unless they have a Cadderly Bonaduce on staff, dead is usually dead. The people capable of magic on that level are fairly few and far between. And often both busy with their own issues, or too powerful to give a flip for what some ruler wants. Of course I may be wrong, lord knows its been a lot of years since I read any forgotten realms books and the rules are probably different now. Im pretty sure I stopped when drizzt bruenor and cattie brie were each on their second time being totally dead, no for realsies this time, haha tricked you, here they are totally alive!" (can you tell I was being annoyed by the series when I stopped reading?) But in this comic, it really IS super duper rare. This is an oddly low level high loot death world. Wouldnt shock me to find an item that can bring back the dead. But it will probably kill 5 of the users closest friends to activate.

[Yuki Akuma]

Too be fair, in forgotten realms, resurrection magic is super duper high end stuff. Its not something every tom **** or abbot can cast, so yeah, even for kings, unless they have a Cadderly Bonaduce on staff, dead is usually dead. The people capable of magic on that level are fairly few and far between. And often both busy with their own issues, or too powerful to give a flip for what some ruler wants. Of course I may be wrong, lord knows its been a lot of years since I read any forgotten realms books and the rules are probably different now. Im pretty sure I stopped when drizzt bruenor and cattie brie were each on their second time being totally dead, no for realsies this time, haha tricked you, here they are totally alive!" (can you tell I was being annoyed by the series when I stopped reading?) But in this comic, it really IS super duper rare. This is an oddly low level high loot death world. Wouldnt shock me to find an item that can bring back the dead. But it will probably kill 5 of the users closest friends to activate.

Raise Dead is only a 5th level spell - going by the demographic tables in the DMG, every capital city would likely have someone capable of casting that.

[halfeye]

Raise Dead is only a 5th level spell - going by the demographic tables in the DMG, every capital city would likely have someone capable of casting that.
Does that get you more than a zombie?

[Gez]

Does that get you more than a zombie?

It's a healing spell, not a necromantic one. It revives the corpse as a normal living person, with their original soul and mind and free will, though a bit worse off -- they lose a level in the process, or two points of Con if they were level 1.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm

You want zombies, you'll get Animate Dead instead. It's a lower level spell, but a necromantic one, instead of a healing one.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateDead.htm

[Vinyadan]

There's a new page. (https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-3-2023)

[The Glyphstone]

The most interesting characters in Goblins continue to not be goblins.

[Kish]

No accounting for tastes.

[Traab]

It's a healing spell, not a necromantic one. It revives the corpse as a normal living person, with their original soul and mind and free will, though a bit worse off -- they lose a level in the process, or two points of Con if they were level 1.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm

You want zombies, you'll get Animate Dead instead. It's a lower level spell, but a necromantic one, instead of a healing one.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateDead.htm

Ah I remember that one now, huh, for some reason i thought it had stricter requirements than that as to who it could raise. I suppose level 9 casters isnt that legendary after all. Not exactly super common, but as you said, one in every capitol city isnt unreasonable.

[Androgeus]

Surely if resurrection kicks the monarch out of their throne then every usurper would spread rumours that the ruler had been resurrected in secret. That time everyone saw the King get wounded in battle? It was actually a mortal wound, why do you think they hurried him off the battlefield. Hey remember when the Queen was taken ill 6 months back? Well I heard she actually died and they couldn’t get in a priest to cast Raise Dead.

[Vinyadan]

The most interesting characters in Goblins continue to not be goblins.

I guess Ears pays for the late introduction of his beau, while MM and Kin have been growing organically since Goblinslayer died, and they both had their own story before that. Plush doesn't even have a backstory, just some vague racial description.

[Anonymouswizard]

Surely if resurrection kicks the monarch out of their throne then every usurper would spread rumours that the ruler had been resurrected in secret. That time everyone saw the King get wounded in battle? It was actually a mortal wound, why do you think they hurried him off the battlefield. Hey remember when the Queen was taken ill 6 months back? Well I heard she actually died and they couldn’t get in a priest to cast Raise Dead.

Burden of proof lies on the one making the claims, plus ensuring witnesses/proof exists in the case of a long term illness. You might still end up with a Girl Genius situation where everyone breaks the rules, but it's more logical than the other way around. Sure you're basically relying on the honour system, but what else can you do?

[Vinyadan]

Personally, I would expect death to be treated like grave illness, but the effects depend on who has the power to say "this is the new king".

For example, the king has sole power to abdicate, and no one can force him to. He is extremely ill, and gives instructions that he relinquishes the crown and his son must now be king. An equivalent would be a dead king leaving in his testament the instruction that the crown is now his son's. He can then be resurrected, the same way he could be healed from a disease, but the crown stays where it is.
The ill king instead could say, "I give full power to my son and associate him to the duties of a king, but I am king, and he is not, and I can retract his powers." A dead king could leave in his testament "in case of death, proclaim X person regent, until I am resurrected".

Instead, it could be a parliament making these choices. It could be a religious figure. There could be other laws. There could be no law, and then it would be might makes right, or there would be powerful men meeting, more or less formally, to decide what to do.

[BaronOfHell]

Sure you're basically relying on the honour system, but what else can you do?

How about once the ruler is no more, a process to make a new heir into a regent starts. If the former ruler is resurrected before the process has finished, the former ruler retains their rule. If a new ruler is named however, the new ruler stays.

Similar to how a country can only be without a government for a limited amount of time, that time period in this example could be the period from when those in power learn about the demise of the previous ruler, to the new ruler is proclaimed.

Of course previous examples where it is not proclaimed to the relevant people that the ruler is no more, to extend the time period to resurrect, is an issue. But it is no different than from the issue of the puppet king, a true ruler from behind the shadows.
So in my opinion it is a completely different issue than that of old rulers not remaining rulers upon resurrection.

[Traab]

So current comic, its impressive how close they are without seeming to really even realize it. I get that its kin comforting a seriously distraught minmax, but its still impressive.

[137beth]

Piperka says the current page is the 1000th one.

[Gez]

Piperka says the current page is the 1000th one.

Even though it's been running for about 18 years now (the oldest pages on site are from 2005), 1000 pages are still rather impressive. Gives an average of about 56 pages per year, so just slightly more than one per week (52 weeks per year), despite all the prolonged hiatuses.

[Laurentio III]

How about once the ruler is no more, a process to make a new heir into a regent starts. If the former ruler is resurrected before the process has finished, the former ruler retains their rule. If a new ruler is named however, the new ruler stays.

Similar to how a country can only be without a government for a limited amount of time, that time period in this example could be the period from when those in power learn about the demise of the previous ruler, to the new ruler is proclaimed.

Of course previous examples where it is not proclaimed to the relevant people that the ruler is no more, to extend the time period to resurrect, is an issue. But it is no different than from the issue of the puppet king, a true ruler from behind the shadows.
So in my opinion it is a completely different issue than that of old rulers not remaining rulers upon resurrection.

The Oglaf's comic covered it. (No, not going to link)
Essentially, the new ruler is the new ruler, after completing all the coronation steps. Turning back from life is the same as abdicating and later saying you want it back. Doesn't fly well.

[Vinyadan]

Next Goblins plot: https://poorlydrawnlines.com/comic/an-adventure/

[Cygnia]

Can't be. Not nearly wangsty enough.

[Anonymouswizard]

Can't be. Not nearly wangsty enough.

I mean, she's had her surgery, maybe that'll prompt a 180 in the comic's tone.

[Vinyadan]

I was taking a look at the Twitter account, and I saw a couple of interesting interactions.

Question: Wanted to be clear on something: Minmax & Ken know they love each other, right?
Answer: They know that they have feelings for each other.

Question: I think they're at the 'don't want to really admit it' stage, with a dose of 'Kin has trauma and MinMax is respecting that'.
Answer: Minmax is thinking "I crossed her hardest limit and traumatized her. I'd be the biggest asshead, if I ever tried anything with her." Kin is thinking "I broke him by sending him away forever. I'd be such an asshead if I were like 'I changed my mind, I want you again'"

I really wish this last one had been somehow visible in-comic. MM I can read (he flinched after using the leash), but Kin's feelings and thoughts have never really been explained, especially given the reality-warping aspects of the Maze oblivion holes, and the fact that she doesn't know what her IME means (it shows MM's birthday gift).

[Quild]

New page.
no plot, though

[Vinyadan]

Uhhh... so, what if genius Kin said "my collar is safe and easy to remove" and just left it there? Maybe with an added password like the one on the Maxoverse, so people don't get the chance to use it again, even by mistake?

[Fyraltari]

New page.
no plot, though

It be cute, though.

[Keltest]

Uhhh... so, what if genius Kin said "my collar is safe and easy to remove" and just left it there? Maybe with an added password like the one on the Maxoverse, so people don't get the chance to use it again, even by mistake?

Kin is presumably reluctant to experiment with it.

[137beth]

Uhhh... so, what if genius Kin said "my collar is safe and easy to remove" and just left it there? Maybe with an added password like the one on the Maxoverse, so people don't get the chance to use it again, even by mistake?

Or maybe it would reappear on her if she left the room.

[Anarchic Fox]

New comic. (https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-5-2023) I guess two of the plotlines are about to merge?

[Vinyadan]

Is the serpent prophecy about to come true due to a misunderstanding? MM doesn't know how Forgath looks, and Idle and Bumper might not know about Kin, as Forgath could have supposed they were never going to reunite.

[Keltest]

Is the serpent prophecy about to come true due to a misunderstanding? MM doesn't know how Forgath looks, and Idle and Bumper might not know about Kin, as Forgath could have supposed they were never going to reunite.

I hope not. It would be kind of stupid for such a dramatic prophecy to essentially be "she gets killed by friendly fire by accident."

[Cygnia]

I hope not. It would be kind of stupid for such a dramatic prophecy to essentially be "she gets killed by friendly fire by accident."

It would fit with the misery and wangst of the overall comic though :smallsigh:

[Fyraltari]

Is the serpent prophecy about to come true due to a misunderstanding? MM doesn't know how Forgath looks, and Idle and Bumper might not know about Kin, as Forgath could have supposed they were never going to reunite.

Remind me what that prophecy is again?

[Kish]

"When the serpent becomes your prey, friends will become enemies and love will fuel hate," given to Forgath.

[Fyraltari]

"When the serpent becomes your prey, friends will become enemies and love will fuel hate," given to Forgath.

yeah, sounds like it's time for a tragic misunderstanding.

[Kish]

I doubt it.

Whatever the prophecy indicates, I do not think it is going to be "Forgath attacks Kin, who is still clearly Kin, because her tail's gone all shiny," and Kin attacking first would fit neither the prophecy nor her personality. Bowst dragging Forgath into battle against people he didn't recognize would fit his personality, but not the prophecy and again, Forgath would have no trouble recognizing them.

[Traab]

Obviously one of the kliks or whatever they were called forgaths body is made of will have a violent reaction to kin or at least her tail material. Its the classic cyborg who cant control his augments for dramatic reasons scenario. His body will move to attack kin before they get the chance to establish to minmax who he is. Since this strange rock golem looking monster is attacking kin, he is gonna roll for initiative first and ask questions never.

[Vinyadan]

Obviously one of the kliks or whatever they were called forgaths body is made of will have a violent reaction to kin or at least her tail material. Its the classic cyborg who cant control his augments for dramatic reasons scenario. His body will move to attack kin before they get the chance to establish to minmax who he is. Since this strange rock golem looking monster is attacking kin, he is gonna roll for initiative first and ask questions never.

The ugly part is that this is a real possibility. Salt was too young (https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-29-2018) to safely perform Forgath's resurrection and pitched in anyway (https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-6-2019), so it's possible that Forgath's whole body will end up acting like Dies's arm. Even if it doesn't drink blood or turn into a feral abomination, Dies's arm did autonomously grab its negative (https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/04192010/) and throw it down a bridge (https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/04272010).

Of course, we don't know what Forgath's negative(s) is/are, but his body suddenly becoming aggressive as soon as he goes to sleep is not impossible.

[Vinyadan]

New page (https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-6-2023) (suprisingly early)

[Willie the Duck]

Well, we knew we weren't going to get an immediate MM/Forgath reunion.

[Kish]

Since when does Kin randomly sprinkle "Gee" into her sentences to be misheard? Super contrived, Elli.

[Daywalker1983]

New Page, kinda.

Glad, Danielle can put this Phase of her life behind her now.

[Vinyadan]

I had not noticed the blog post. It's kind of a gut punch, given all the efforts to get together and have a child described in the older blog entries.

I gave the twitter feed a look, and I noticed this:


I have the worst stress migraine. I dunno where I'm going to be living in 2 months. I dunno why it's so hard for me to draw faster than I do. If I want to be able to afford to move, I need to draw MUCH faster than I do.

And another one, with a partly inked version of the current page:


Can I finish this page before the end of the month? I bloody well better!

So there's very likely a separation and certainly a relocation coming, and money problems. The page probably went up uncoloured to get the Patreon money for the month. In the past, I had already had the impression that letting Cheyenne go was due to lack of money; now I guess it's even worse.

[ElliotO]

Just finished rereading the comic.

I have what would probably be "the usual complaints" about the weird af dungeons and stuff like the dissolver monster and the kliks. When it works, it works. But all too often it doesn't. (One slightly less-common complaint I have is that it spends too much time explaining things that can be inferred by the reader --- I'm looking at you IMEs. The comic sometimes gets wordier than it has to be.)

------

Kinda wish we had more time with the character relationships and less time with some of this over-the-top homebrew.

Also, really? Bringing back forgath? Like, you had an emotional character death there. You just have to invalidate that and drive him deeper into the whole klik stuff? Paired with big ears getting his ears back immediately this makes me worry about stakes going forward.

[Kish]

Also, really? Bringing back forgath? Like, you had an emotional character death there. You just have to invalidate that and drive him deeper into the whole klik stuff? Paired with big ears getting his ears back immediately this makes me worry about stakes going forward.
I mean, it was established before Idle killed him that they had a plan to bring him back.

Chief is still dead (and being tortured in slow time), and all the ongoing characters keep losing pieces of themselves, so I think Elli is more than sufficiently brutal with her characters. (Not that I'd mourn overmuch for Forgath if he died; I don't loathe him as I do Minmax, but he's never really done anything to earn my investment either.)

On an unrelated note, since when does Big-Ears call Complains-Of-Names Names rather than Complains? Only Minmax called him that before.

[Pax1138]

I mean, the more meaningful death for Forgath was fighting Kore and falling in the whole, not the klik stuff. As it is, that added in a whole new segment to the story that feels too late an addition. Of course, even without this pace, the comic could go on for another twenty years for all we know, so what even is a "late addition"?

As for spending too much time on worldbuilding and explaining stuff, this seems to be a common issue with webcomic authors, heck probably all amateur writers and/or people without an editor.

[Morgaln]

We can't really judge what was a "late addition," since we have no idea where the story is even going. No one in the comic has an actual goal or plan what they want to do. Well, apart from Big Ears, who wants to get rid of the axe in a way that saves the world. Of course the axe breaking has happened so long ago and has been ignored by pretty much everyone to the point where it just doesn't feel important at all, let alone urgent. Of course that's not all that surprising; the goblins have long ago handed the reins of main character over to Minmax, and he doesn't care about the axe.

[Vinyadan]

We can't really judge what was a "late addition," since we have no idea where the story is even going. No one in the comic has an actual goal or plan what they want to do. Well, apart from Big Ears, who wants to get rid of the axe in a way that saves the world. Of course the axe breaking has happened so long ago and has been ignored by pretty much everyone to the point where it just doesn't feel important at all, let alone urgent. Of course that's not all that surprising; the goblins have long ago handed the reins of main character over to Minmax, and he doesn't care about the axe.

There are so many things going on with the axe that don't make much sense from a writing perspective...

Number one is Ears interacting with it. It's like his mental acuity ebbs and flows at random times. The most recent attempt to get Complains to grab it is super weird, since it would make the world go to hell faster.

If we concern ourselves more with writing than with the characters, Ear's decision to go down to hell was oddly placed. Goblins is choke full of posturing, and Ears does have some big ham moments; but the problem is that the whole thing is done at a moment when there is no way for Ears to actually go down there. And yet he speaks with absolute certainty, as if the readers wouldn't be more perplexed than impressed by the whole situation.

Another weird writing decision is the reason why the axe broke. Ears understands that it happened because he was fighting Fumbles, who is good. Fumbles has a weapon that destroys magical bindings, but Ears doesn't know it yet, so he creates an articulate explanation for why hurting Kore was evil. However, when the nature of the staff is revealed, no one seems to make the connection. And it worries me that Ears may have been right, in spite of the fact that his explanation boils down to "we should not have helped Chief and, once we did, I should have left myself and my friends die, and abandoned the axe to Kore", because the writing simply doesn't care about Fumbles's staff, as far as the axe is concerned (either that, or Ears' epiphany is being postponed beyond any reasonableness).

Then we have the placement of the axe breaking within the overall story: the Goblins are simply running away and trying to reach their village. Strictly speaking, they don't need to fight Kore, and they should aim for losing him, but that is probably beyond them, so they need to try to avoid him while preparing for a new confrontation. Then the axe breaks, but their practicable objectives don't change at all. They just randomly meet some added popcorn demons they can easily kill.

And, finally, the weird way the camera is being used. Showing the village would have given the readers a reason more to care about the GAP getting there; but it also would have allowed to show what is happening around the realm. In other words, is Brassmoon being destroyed by demons? What about the village, or random civilians living on the countryside? How urgent is this axe thing, on a planetary scale?

[Laurentio III]

In other words, is Brassmoon being destroyed by demons? What about the village, or random civilians living on the countryside? How urgent is this axe thing, on a planetary scale?
This comics being this comics, the civilians' life is so random and gluesome that being molested by demons is just a thursday.

[Kish]

For you, the day the Axe of Prissian broke and demons rampaged through Brassmoon City was the most important day of your life. But to me, it was Thursday.

[Fyraltari]

Having the comic's borders gradually fill with blood and gore since the Axe got damaged, to represent hell seeping into the mortal plane was a really great idea that gave a palpable sense of emergency to the situation.

Now, it's just how the borders look.

[Lurkmoar]

Having the comic's borders gradually fill with blood and gore since the Axe got damaged, to represent hell seeping into the mortal plane was a really great idea that gave a palpable sense of emergency to the situation.

Now, it's just how the borders look.

Conditioned to accept horror? The slow boiling frog parable? Those people that walked around with The End is Nigh signs?

[Vinyadan]

Thinking about it, Brassmoon was almost overrun by Orcs one year before the story started, then it was attacked by "Fleshripper the Goblin" and his magical friends (+ a stampede of escaping monsters), and now, less than a week later, it might be dealing with a demonic invasion and the floor turning into lava.

[Vinyadan]

New page. https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-7-2023

[Laurentio III]

New page. https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-7-2023
«It would help if just, for a minute, stop complai-»
«Oh sure, I could stop complaining, or maybe you could stop giving me reason to complain!»

At this point, I would cherrish his dead. Seriously, it's earned.

[sihnfahl]

"Look, just trust us, it'll work!"

"Okay, I'll try it!"

Sees it's working after a single round. Still surrounded. Still not safe.

"Blast it! HOW CAN YOU BE RIGHT!?"

Totally deserves to be smacked if he survives. And gagged.

[Kish]

Idle, Bowst, and Forgath went through this part. Presumably soon everyone will be meeting up to form one giant adventure party of "why are these people together?"

Not that I have any idea why all the protagonists are in the same dungeon now.

Elli needs to work on her pacing. Or her follow-through, one of the two.

[Quild]

Idle, Bowst, and Forgath went through this part. Presumably soon everyone will be meeting up to form one giant adventure party of "why are these people together?"

Not that I have any idea why all the protagonists are in the same dungeon now.

Elli needs to work on her pacing. Or her follow-through, one of the two.

The issue is not pacing but slow updates. If you re-read the pages, it will be fast enough and you'll be more able to judge the pacing.

That being said, even without re-reading, I remember that:
- MM is with the GAP because he used the tea-thing (from Maze of Many) to track and fight them. They were attacked by Kore and ended fleeing together and started putting their differences aside.
- Forgath delayed Kore, had his own adventure making him mostly Klik and then went into the Dungeon to find MM.
- Kin used the tea-thing to find MM after she started realizing they were connected.
- Kore is here to track and kill the GAP. And everything else he judges evil in the process (that is, everything)
- Dies is not in that dungeon, so not all the protaconists are here!

[Pax1138]

Man, how long has it been since we've seen Dies? Has it been a real-world decade yet?

Edit:
Think it's this one, from 11/23/2012: Someone Dies Horribly (https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/11232012)

[Kish]

Consider the possibility that I mean what I say, Quild.

(Pax1138 may be talking about real-world time; I'm talking about things like the fact that the ominous "murder dwarf knows where the goblins' peaceful village is" was at the beginning of book 2, and since they left Brassmoon City the plot has become tiny occasional bits of plot in a sea of "look, another simultaneously scary and goofy dungeon room!")

[Vinyadan]

Man, how long has it been since we've seen Dies? Has it been a real-world decade yet?

Edit:
Think it's this one, from 11/23/2012: Someone Dies Horribly (https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/11232012)

I wonder who was doing colours and lights for that one, it looks pretty different from what we have today.

Otherwise, things go as usual, in the Muddy Tunnel of Decreased Intelligence. But I find it pretty funny that Complains actually looks outraged. It's like he's going "I'M OFFENDED!" about people reaching conclusions through observation and offering them as advice.

[Morgaln]

I wonder who was doing colours and lights for that one, it looks pretty different from what we have today.

Otherwise, things go as usual, in the Muddy Tunnel of Decreased Intelligence. But I find it pretty funny that Complains actually looks outraged. It's like he's going "I'M OFFENDED!" about people reaching conclusions through observation and offering them as advice.

That was Cheyenne Wright, of Girl Genius fame. There was a (short-lived) time where Elli admitted that she couldn't shoulder it all alone and hired Cheyenne to do the coloring. The comic was arguably better for it, but it didn't last as the two had a falling out after a bit.

As for Complains, he's basically like a stereotypical teenager. Tell him to do something and he'll do the opposite just out of spite, and he thinks he knows better than anyone else in any given scenario. In any decent horror movie, that would make him top of the list of victims, but for all its gruesomeness and body horror, Goblins does have a fair bit of (necessary) plot armor.

[Murk]

I'm pretty sure the linked comic wasn't Cheyenne yet.
Looked it up: it was Forest Rhodes ("Morikahn") who was doing the colouring during the linked page. Not sure when he started, sometime after 2011 I believe (because Elli/Danielle were still doing their own colouring then). He left in May 2013 and Elli took over the colouring herself again, then in January 2017 Cheyenne came.

[Steven]

New comic up. Nothing happens.

[Murk]

New comic up. Nothing happens.

For all that I grumble about the upload speed of this comic I have immense respect for Elli's patience.
This is very much a transition page (nothing happens, indeed).
Transition pages are probably very important when you read the comic as a whole, but I just can't imagine spending weeks on drawing a page where nothing really happens. I wouldn't have the discipline for it - I'd probably just skip ahead to the cool parts, so to say.

[Steven]

For all that I grumble about the upload speed of this comic I have immense respect for Elli's patience.
This is very much a transition page (nothing happens, indeed).
Transition pages are probably very important when you read the comic as a whole, but I just can't imagine spending weeks on drawing a page where nothing really happens. I wouldn't have the discipline for it - I'd probably just skip ahead to the cool parts, so to say.

This is true. My general frustration with the pacing and what I see as deeply unfunny bits like the previous page has overflowed and is making me grumble about things that are not actually bad, just not very fun in the context of a comic I'm waiting weeks between page. It's an unfair criticism.

[Pax1138]

If nothing else, pages are being updated more quickly than we've been used to for a while, so I'll take that as a positive.

[Anonymouswizard]

If nothing else, pages are being updated more quickly than we've been used to for a while, so I'll take that as a positive.

I think her Patreon is set to payments per update (instead of per month), so I'm guessing there's a bit of financial necessity involved as well as an awareness that this can't be solved with a one off crowdfund. Honestly I'd much rather the pace of the updates be driven by her inspiration for the comic but the lack is also the reason I dropped Goblins for ~6 years.

[The Glyphstone]

Looks like she's still crowdfunding her move-out though.

[Divayth Fyr]

Is there anything in her life she doesn't crowdfund?

[Vinyadan]

New page https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-9-2023

I kinda liked Ears' old IME.

[Quild]

Omg that pun. Reminded me the "So bad it's worse" xkcd comic. https://xkcd.com/653/


New page https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-9-2023

I kinda liked Ears' old IME.

Yellow bricks IIRC?

[Anonymouswizard]

I thought it was a yellow hexagon? Simple and geometric suits Big Ears over some big... wings?

Which kind of clashes with Names being the party member with an outsider body part IME. If you wanted to update it to appear more 'angelic' I'd have begun with a halo...

[Morgaln]

It was definitely yellow bricks, like a wall around him. It really fit Ears, showing him as steadfast and protective. Now we have generic angelic wings, I guess?

I assume Elli's trying to go for a kind of opposite between Ears being angelic and Complains being demonic, but it doesn't make much sense since these two don't have any story between them that would make use of that.

[Lord Torath]

Well, Ears did use the angel horn to heal his ears, so I guess that could have an affect on his IME.

[Traab]

Well, Ears did use the angel horn to heal his ears, so I guess that could have an affect on his IME.

This, and I can easily see ears going some sort of angelic evolution route just because of how he is generally portrayed so much like how the shield of wonder or whatever it was is slowly turning complains into a demon, the horn chunk is slowly turning ears into a celestial.

[Fyraltari]

This, and I can easily see ears going some sort of angelic evolution route just because of how he is generally portrayed so much like how the shield of wonder or whatever it was is slowly turning complains into a demon, the horn chunk is slowly turning ears into a celestial.

But goblin angels don't have wings. (https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-13-2020)

[Morgaln]

This, and I can easily see ears going some sort of angelic evolution route just because of how he is generally portrayed so much like how the shield of wonder or whatever it was is slowly turning complains into a demon, the horn chunk is slowly turning ears into a celestial.

Yeah, that's certainly where the new IME is coming from. I wasn't confused where the change came from, I am disappointed that Elli is changing the IME from something specific and representative of Ear's character into something generic that mainly references his physical form.

Also, both of these transformations should be portrayed as negative. Canonically, both demons and angels are pretty much the same thing in the Goblins world. The only difference is that demons feed on negative emotions and angels on positive ones. Angels don't do good things because they are great people or especially moral, they do good things because they literally have to in order to gain sustenance. Source: https://www.goblinscomic.com/blog/thuntonian-lore-1
But neither angels nor demons have a soul. So if you transform into one of them, you will eventually lose your soul. That's not a good thing. Complains even acknowledges that when his transformation begins.
Incidentally, this also means the angel shouldn't have cared one bit that Ears was her "child" (which is a bollocks argument anyway), but consistency was never a strong suite of Goblins...

[137beth]

I got a giggle out of "monksplaining."

[Vinyadan]

New page. https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-10-2023

So Plush literally gets hard when Ears touches him? Also, does the blue part mean that he's also part angel, or it's just how he looks?

[Willie the Duck]

So Plush literally gets hard when Ears touches him? Also, does the blue part mean that he's also part angel, or it's just how he looks?

When the page is colored, he's grey with blue stripes, with a divide approximately where the grey-blue line is in what we see. I'm wondering if, when this does get colored in, how we're going to see the handprint.

[Traab]

It would be a lot easier to tell exactly what is happening if it was colored properly.

[Daywalker1983]

It would be a lot easier to tell exactly what is happening if it was colored properly.

That will never happen, unfortunately.

[Kish]

Huh? Elli has been coloring in the pages, she's just taken to uploading the black-and-white versions early.

(Not that it's ever been particularly easy for me to follow what's happening in the gruesome combat scenes she loves so much, but that's because I glaze over at extended "thrilling" combat scenes. I had the same problem following R. A. Salvatore's writing, back when I tried to.)

[Divayth Fyr]

It's been what, a month since the previous page was uploaded? Still no color, but we have another colorless (mostly) page.

I feel the chances Ellie manages to color the backlog grows smaller and smaller with every new page...

[Kish]

She's uploaded...either four or five...colorless pages, and since she has she's colored either two or three of them. Yes, she's trying to create an image of working faster than she actually does by showing the world her half-done pages, but treating there being two black-and-white pages up at the same time as her switching to pure black-and-white is unjustified catastrophizing.

[Cygnia]

That will never happen, unfortunately.

Unless she has to overemphasize the misery and torture/gorn.

[Daywalker1983]

She's uploaded...either four or five...colorless pages, and since she has she's colored either two or three of them. Yes, she's trying to create an image of working faster than she actually does by showing the world her half-done pages, but treating there being two black-and-white pages up at the same time as her switching to pure black-and-white is unjustified catastrophizing.

I know, my Bad. But she doesnt have a good track record of seeing Things through. You can still find unfinished pages here and there and that's only the Comic itself. Still waiting for Tempts fate.

[Vinyadan]

I think the reason might be pretty simple: rushing in an unfinished page right before August is over means the Patreon money gets paid one month earlier than if the image had been posted in September with full colouring.

(I didn't check how Patreon works, but I remember tweets talking about the necessity of finishing a page before month's end).

[Daywalker1983]

I think the reason might be pretty simple: rushing in an unfinished page right before August is over means the Patreon money gets paid one month earlier than if the image had been posted in September with full colouring.

(I didn't check how Patreon works, but I remember tweets talking about the necessity of finishing a page before month's end).

... And she needs money right now.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

New page. https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-10-2023

So Plush literally gets hard when Ears touches him? Also, does the blue part mean that he's also part angel, or it's just how he looks?

Looks to me like that's just stone. Getting touched by Big Ears has the same effect as the flowers.

It's a contrived reason for forcing character interactions, but at least it's better than the rape curse.

[Vinyadan]

New page.

https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-11-2023

[Anonymouswizard]

Something seems different about this page, what's the strange thing in between the lines?

[Morgaln]

Ah, I see we're finally moving towards fulfilling the "friends will become enemies" prophecy. Apparently we're starting with a Minmax versus off-brand Minmax fight...

[Fyraltari]

Something seems different about this page, what's the strange thing in between the lines?

I believe it is called "Kaulohr".

[Pax1138]

Minmax vs. Bowst, but in a debate! (for the dumbest conversation possible)

[Vinyadan]

I am curious about how the magic in place could affect the battle. Kin and MM actually have an overwhelming advantage. They could tell Bowst "you are dead" and he'd be dead. EDIT: oh wait, if they need to touch the door, it would be a bit more difficult.

[Anonymouswizard]

I am curious about how the magic in place could affect the battle. Kin and MM actually have an overwhelming advantage. They could tell Bowst "you are dead" and he'd be dead. EDIT: oh wait, if they need to touch the door, it would be a bit more difficult.

I presume Kin will use it to say 'we're all friends' if they don't need to touch the door.

[Vinyadan]

New page (really) https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-12-2023

I guess inspiration struck!

[The Glyphstone]

Looks more like Oblivious struck.

[Fyraltari]

How did Minmax manage to slice the back of whatshisface's thigh while being in front of him like that?

[Traab]

How did Minmax manage to slice the back of whatshisface's thigh while being in front of him like that?

It looks like he pulled the sword back out after blocking and releasing it so it was alongside his leg. Who had in turn turned into his own swing, exposing his back. Say what you will about minmax and his book smarts, this dude is honestly really smart at using his unique sword to great effect. Also, his name is bowst.

[Anonymouswizard]

What class is whatsherface (bunny dwarf elf)? I can't remember if it's been specified, but while Bowst is redundant with Minmax the rest could potentially make a Standard Four Person Adventuring Party.

Also it might be time to get Minmax some level adjustment, everybody else seems to get one. +1LA in exchange for regaining literacy?

(Also I wouldn't consider Minmax being really good with his special sword weird, anybody who has Weapon Proficiency: Furniture is probably pretty used to unorthodox combat.)

[Laurentio III]

No way PaletteSwitch can beat MinMax, unless that glass sword hold uncanny powers (unlikely).
So we can wait for the match to be interrupted when the rest of the party meets.
The only suspense here is whether MinMax will kill ScemoScemo before they can stop him or not. In other comics, the odds would be laughable, but in this one, drama reigns supreme.

[NontheistCleric]

I don't think anyone cares enough about Bowst yet for his death to produce appreciable drama.

[Vinyadan]

MM could hold his own against a Pit Fiend with the same equipment, so Bowst probably isn't much of a problem. I think the real issue here is Idle, aka the Chicken-Woman-Duck Thing, who can cast very powerful spells in exchange for dying and being immediately resurrected. If Bowst dies, and she believes Forgath is tough enough to survive because of his Klik body, she could probably nuke the corridor.

On the other hand, MM is currently omnipotent, given that he is wearing a turquoise armour, and the door makes anything real, as long as it's said while touching turquoise.

And we haven't yet seen what the door does, if someone says something while touching white.

[Morgaln]

I absolutely expect Minmax to say something like "You'll kill her!" or "I won't stop until you're dead!" wihout thinking, which will then become true due to the turquoise armor.
Also,with all the colored patches on Forgath, one of them might be considered turquoise (there's one on the left arm that might qualify, see here: https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-6-2019). That could mean whatever Forgath says might also come true.

Whichever way it goes, it will lead to Minmax and Forgath fighting. It's absolutely on par with the comic to cause drama through magic coercion that way.

[Murk]

I don't think anyone cares enough about Bowst yet for his death to produce appreciable drama.

I think this is true, but that also means he might as well just die. What good does it do for the character to survive? We already have a dumb fighter boi. Bowst would contribute nothing whatsoever to the story.

I had blissfully forgotten about the rape curse until Lvl 2 Expert regrettably reminded me of its existence, so my bet is that Bowst dies and then we'll have rape curse drama.

[Gez]

I think the real issue here is Idle, aka the Chicken-Woman-Duck Thing
... waiting in the bushes of love...

[Lord Torath]

I think this is true, but that also means he might as well just die. What good does it do for the character to survive? We already have a dumb fighter boi. Bowst would contribute nothing whatsoever to the story.

I had blissfully forgotten about the rape curse until Lvl 2 Expert regrettably reminded me of its existence, so my bet is that Bowst dies and then we'll have rape curse drama.But Boast is the one who needs to have daily sex or die. Idle just needs to die once a day (and I don't think 'the little death' counts :smallwink: )

[Murk]

But Boast is the one who needs to have daily sex or die. Idle just needs to die once a day (and I don't think 'the little death' counts :smallwink: )

Oh, yes, I had misremembered! I'm glad - that makes it more unlikely to come up again.

[Fyraltari]

... waiting in the bushes of love...
And now I have to listen to it again.

But Boast is the one who needs to have daily sex or die. Idle just needs to die once a day (and I don't think 'the little death' counts :smallwink: )
Which means Minmax can kill Bowst without consequences in the time it takes for Forgath to calm everybody.

[Cygnia]

So, expect Bowst to touch the turquoise and scream "THEY ARE THE ENEMY!" to make it true and miserable. Got it.

[Vinyadan]

Lol, there are so many ways this could go wrong. Imagine Bowst suddenly realising his time is up and screaming "I must have sex RIGHT NOW!" and Idle jumping to the rescue. What follows are awkward and slightly disgusted looks from MM and Kin. Although this would give Forgath a chance to explain, which would be good... Except turquoise MM would say "no, you're not Forgath!" and much soul searching would ensue.

[137beth]

Oh dear, this fight is going to end horribly.

[Vinyadan]

New page https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-13-2023

[Traab]

Oh god, here comes minmax for round two before kin can explain. I just know it. She will figure it out, minmax will have already attacked, bowst and whatever her name is will counter and hurt kin who gets in the middle trying to stop this, and that whole mess will happen.

[Laurentio III]

Oh god, here comes minmax for round two before kin can explain. I just know it. She will figure it out, minmax will have already attacked, bowst and whatever her name is will counter and hurt kin who gets in the middle trying to stop this, and that whole mess will happen.
I doubt. Both fighters are in a resting pose, it would require a negative INT stat to not get the hint that both are adventurers.

Anyway, Bowstupid is the kind of person I would never be too tired to slap in the face. Every single time he opens his mouth, I lose sanity. Kudos for the characterization.

[Gez]

Oh yeah, Forgath is still around, as... that thing.

Death would be a mercy, really.

[Fyraltari]

So is this page (https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-9-2023) ever going to get colors?

[Morgaln]

Oh god, here comes minmax for round two before kin can explain. I just know it. She will figure it out, minmax will have already attacked, bowst and whatever her name is will counter and hurt kin who gets in the middle trying to stop this, and that whole mess will happen.

I'll make another prediction. As Vinyadan pointed out, we haven't seen the effect of touching white yet. My guess is, it works the opposite of turquoise; meaning whatever you say while touching white becomes untrue. Idle has white skin. She probably counts as touching white all the time. All she needs to do is shout "Bowst, they're not our enemies!" to try and stop him from attacking again to magically (literally) turn them all into enemies.

[Laurentio III]

"When the serpent becomes your prey, friends will become enemies and love will fuel hate."

[Anonymouswizard]

So is this page (https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-9-2023) ever going to get colors?

When it gets her Patreon money?

[remetagross]

Oh yeah, Forgath is still around, as... that thing.

Death would be a mercy, really.

Wow, yeah. No wonder Minmax and Kin are quite flabbergasted at his sight.

[Laurentio III]

Oh yeah, Forgath is still around, as... that thing.

Death would be a mercy, really.
And not even level six.
Characters are tools in this comics. They have little progression outside of fortunate and uncontrollable events.

[Daywalker1983]

Wow, yeah. No wonder Minmax and Kin are quite flabbergasted at his sight.

To be fair, him and Bowst just seem to be made up out of blobs.

[Steven]

Kin: "That's Forgath!"

Minmax: "What? That's not Forgath!"

Forgath stops being Forgath and they end up killing each other

[Anonymouswizard]

Kin: "That's Forgath!"

Minmax: "What? That's not Forgath!"

Forgath stops being Forgath and they end up killing each other

I mean, Forgath is already Twogath...

[ZhonLord]

Oh yeah, Forgath is still around, as... that thing.

Death would be a mercy, really.

Why? Being a klik amalgam is to his advantage. He probably has DR now well ahead of the appropriate level, and can definitely heal from contact with a variety of substances: metal, tree bark, you name it. It's a huge tactical advantage and allows him to save his healing spells for those who are more susceptible to harm. As long as he still has his senses of touch, smell and tastes, there's no real downside to Klikgath.

[Traab]

Why? Being a klik amalgam is to his advantage. He probably has DR now well ahead of the appropriate level, and can definitely heal from contact with a variety of substances: metal, tree bark, you name it. It's a huge tactical advantage and allows him to save his healing spells for those who are more susceptible to harm. As long as he still has his senses of touch, smell and tastes, there's no real downside to Klikgath.

The problem is he has a list a dozen items long where specific parts of his body are vulnerable to something specific. And its entirely possible healing works the same way. He may not be ABLE to use healing spells on himself. Instead he needs to carry around a supply of a dozen items to repair specific sections of his body if they get damaged. like, he may need iron to heal his right arm, coal for his left pec, mercury for his right eye, etc. Imagine if his right arm is vulnerable to steel and he goes to block an attack with it and it gets chopped right off with screaming agony? His left arm is allergic to wood so that club breaks it like a twig. Its a lot to keep straight.

But I may be wrong. I cant remember when we covered what it means for a klik to merge with a living being. I know it changes something but im not sure I remember what. I just remember there was the potential for problems and thats what happened to dies horribly and his green arm monster. (Which we never went back to)

[Vinyadan]

Yes, Salt was too young, and Forklickft was botched. He probably will have problems similar to Dies's.

[Laurentio III]

So... in the room that makes thing real, MinMax said:
"Forgath died" -> No conseguences, as Forgath actually died, so there is no reality change.
"Brother, you are alive" -> Here, it matters if the spell understand pathos retorical forms. Anyway, just calling someone "brother" should not count as saying "we are brothers". At the same time, "You are alive" is probably innocuous as Forgath is, at this time, alive.
"We're back together!" -> Again, inconseguential on virtue of being correct anyway.

I know this post is useless, but I'm keeping track of things MinMax says for the inevitable moment he will sweat.

[Vinyadan]

New page https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-14-2023

[Traab]

Well ok then! Still time for something to go tragically wrong in this room, but for the moment that was easy.

[Kish]

It is also, I admit, increasingly looking like I gave Elli too much credit in thinking both the black-and-white pages would be colored in.

[Gez]

Why? Being a klik amalgam is to his advantage.

Perhaps as long as he doesn't come across a mirror and instantly dies of shame upon seeing what he has become.

[Fyraltari]

Why? Being a klik amalgam is to his advantage. He probably has DR now well ahead of the appropriate level, and can definitely heal from contact with a variety of substances: metal, tree bark, you name it. It's a huge tactical advantage and allows him to save his healing spells for those who are more susceptible to harm. As long as he still has his senses of touch, smell and tastes, there's no real downside to Klikgath.

This gives big "my character sleeps wearing heavy armor" energy.

[Kish]

Oh yeah, Forgath is still around, as... that thing.

Death would be a mercy, really.


Perhaps as long as he doesn't come across a mirror and instantly dies of shame upon seeing what he has become.


This gives big "my character sleeps wearing heavy armor" energy.
I do not think "better dead than ugly" is an attitude Forgath should be assumed to have at the present or in the future.

[Gez]

I do not think "better dead than ugly" is an attitude Forgath should be assumed to have at the present or in the future.

This goes beyond ugliness and into body horror to me. Forgath is now a living clump of mismatched materials.

[Fyraltari]

I do not think "better dead than ugly" is an attitude Forgath should be assumed to have at the present or in the future.

"Ugly" is severely understating his condition.

But to be clear I was responding to:


Being a klik amalgam is to his advantage. [bunch of tactical considerations] As long as he still has his senses of touch, smell and tastes, there's no real downside to Klikgath

Which reads like fight optimization is the only thing that matters to a character's life.
I don't agree that death would be preferable to life in this state, I just don't think that the fighting bonuses make up for it.

[Emperor Time]

But at least Forgath's mind and soul hasn't changed which is enough for MinMax.

[NontheistCleric]

Forgath doesn't seem to have much problem with it, or at least, he prefers it to death.

[Cygnia]

This goes beyond ugliness and into body horror to me. Forgath is now a living clump of mismatched materials.

Par for the wangsty course then!

[Anonymouswizard]

Par for the wangsty course then!

I thought he already passed that? It seems to be a prerequisite for this comic.

[Lord Torath]

I love how enthusiastic Idle is in confessing to murder. :smallbiggrin:

[Vinyadan]

I love how enthusiastic Idle is in confessing to murder. :smallbiggrin:

Lol, for once she's the one who wasn't killed.

[Steven]

I feel surprised that my prediction wasn't correct. I also don't feel it's very satisfying to have my expectations subverted by the idiot character luck out by saying things that are all consistent with current reality with no real planning.

I guess this is one of those things where there is still plenty of time for it to go horribly wrong before they actually exit the room though so maybe I shouldn't be counting any chickens in either direction

[ZhonLord]

I feel surprised that my prediction wasn't correct. I also don't feel it's very satisfying to have my expectations subverted by the idiot character luck out by saying things that are all consistent with current reality with no real planning.

I guess this is one of those things where there is still plenty of time for it to go horribly wrong before they actually exit the room though so maybe I shouldn't be counting any chickens in either direction

That's true, Minmax is still wearing Truth Teal. On the other hand, I'm much more concerned about Idle. Her entire body is the color of White Lies. If she enters the room things could get very ugly indeed.

[BaronOfHell]

I feel surprised that my prediction wasn't correct. I also don't feel it's very satisfying to have my expectations subverted by the idiot character luck out by saying things that are all consistent with current reality with no real planning.


My guess is that if MinMax had said anything different that also required for different events to have happened, then those events would have been depicted earlier in the comic instead of what we got.

[Gez]

My guess is that if MinMax had said anything different that also required for different events to have happened, then those events would have been depicted earlier in the comic instead of what we got.

The magic only works in the corridor, so any sentence said about the outside is moot.

[NontheistCleric]

The magic only works in the corridor, so any sentence said about the outside is moot.

It might be that the universe itself is bent to ensuring things that occur in the corridor, even if they can be influenced by outside events, will turn out to be true when they are spoken about in the corridor, and that this causality can work backwards in time from when the words are said.

[Anonymouswizard]

It might be that the universe itself is bent to ensuring things that occur in the corridor, even if they can be influenced by outside events, will turn out to be true when they are spoken about in the corridor, and that this causality can work backwards in time from when the words are said.

That doesn't really fit with what we've seen so far. It seems to instead rewrite reality within the vicinity of the corridor, with reverting happening once you leave.

[Vinyadan]

Yep, it doesn't work retroactively, otherwise Kin would have really been Princess Blanket, even back when she first appeared.

And even the oblivion holes in the Maze of Many didn't work retroactively, at least from our point of view.

[Laurentio III]

Kin is stupidily smart, and already asserted that the magic in the room is like Alladin's Genie: "Phenomenal cosmic powers! Itty bitty living space!".
Working outside the room is already too much. Working back in time would be asking the Moon.
Remember, Kin being a queen worked in an hallucination, not even changing the room aspect.

[Vinyadan]

New page. https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-15-2023

I really like that pages are coming out this fast.

[Neoriceisgood]

New page. https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-15-2023

I really like that pages are coming out this fast.


Yeah Goblins update rate has been pretty solid recently, glad to see it.

The page is fine, funny but no major progress.

[remetagross]

Same here. Got an honest chuckle out of me. Having one of these once in a while is refreshing.

[Neoriceisgood]

Same here. Got an honest chuckle out of me. Having one of these once in a while is refreshing.

These types of updates are kinda painful when it's 1 page every month or two months, but with a decent update rate they're welcome.

[137beth]

The Minimax Forgath reunion went better than I expected. I...don't get what new chief is so existential about?

[Fyraltari]

The Minimax Forgath reunion went better than I expected. I...don't get what new chief is so existential about?

He's worried about the fact that he's turning into a demon.

[Pax1138]

I think he's also trying to be over-angsty/melodramatic on purpose, but the bit ruined his moment. Attempted edgelord interrupted by comedic interlude.

[Neoriceisgood]

I do wonder if him turning more demonic is actually going to have any real effect in the long run. Goblins' tends to change the appearance of characters left and right all the time, so I never know if it's just another little visual change or if there's more planned with stuff like the demonic shifting.

[Anonymouswizard]

I do wonder if him turning more demonic is actually going to have any real effect in the long run. Goblins' tends to change the appearance of characters left and right all the time, so I never know if it's just another little visual change or if there's more planned with stuff like the demonic shifting.

I'm guessing he might get wings, and this might bring him into conflict with whatshername the winged goblin saviour lady and it turns out that just as THAC0 was meant to be chief his son was meant to be uberchief.

Plus we'll probably find out that this means Complains is rocking PC stats plus the bonus for being chief plus whatever the Fiendish template gives you, and he'll think he's lost his soul but hasn't got some reason. Goblins trends towards ridiculous power boosts almost as much as appearance changes.

[Laurentio III]

https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-16-2023
First time I actually like Complains. Kudos.

[Pax1138]

After the last couple of updates, I wasn't expecting a finished, full-color page to show up like this. It kinda feels like this comic is back on track, but who knows if that'll last.

Also, the cast remembers there was a plot and things they were supposed to be concerned about! Win-win!

[remetagross]

It kinda feels like this comic is back on track

Yeah, my feeling exactly. It's a pretty pleasant feeling at that.

[Vinyadan]

New page https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-17-2023

[Cygnia]

New page https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-17-2023

...and back to the misery...:smallyuk: