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togapika
2007-12-02, 02:34 PM
So I'm going to be running a game over Christmas break for some friends of mine and would like suggestions on how to make it better.
The premise is that they will all be playing 1st level characters, but not using any of the races, classes, or prestige classes from the player's handbook.
This is because the adventures they undertake will be shadowed by another party attempting the same things.

The "A" party. This party will include the SUPER-STEREOTYPICAL characters:
Dwarven Fighter
Elven Wizard
Halfling Rogue
Etc
They will be the kind of people who look good at first glance (Shiny armor and equipment etc) but seriously messed up underneath. The "A" party will exemplify the bad traits of the races and classes (rogue is a klepto, paladin pain in the @$$ etc.)

The PC's (although the "B" party) will eventually be the unlikely guys who become the heroes (ala Mystery Men).
Thoughts?

TheLogman
2007-12-02, 03:01 PM
Forgetful Monk?
Exiled Psion?
Druid that Prefers the City?
Wise Battle-hardened Ranger that's always drunk?

kamikasei
2007-12-02, 03:05 PM
A Beguiler, who is extremely professional and competent (think Robert Redford in "Sneakers", a manipulator of tech and people) but who is always pretending to be someone else so never gets any credit or gets taken seriously outside of action.

A thoroughly self-effacing Crusader of some deity like Ilmater.

A bookish wizard/loremaster type with a personality like The Paper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yomiko_Readman) from Read or Die. Total wallflower who can do remarkable things with magic but never shows a sign of it. Come to think of it, this could be a cloistered cleric of Boccob or something similar, too.

It depends on what kind of B-ness you're after... are they supposed to be unlikely heroes because they're bumblers and buffoons or because they don't "look the part"? I get the impression you're after a party of truly heroic individuals who nonetheless wouldn't be picked for the team, because they haven't the shiny armor or the big sword or the swagger in their step; that's what I've aimed for above.

Wraith
2007-12-02, 03:09 PM
All stats rolls (before racial modifiers) are capped at say, 16, and all characters must take a minimum of 2 stats that are 9 or less.

They're not completely gimped by any stretch of the imagination (possible exception of Monks, but apparently that's not new anyway) but doing it this way makes them less optimised in comparison to the 'normal' PC.
That, at least, is what I imagine when I think of "B Team" - a bunch of mostly competent characters that just aren't quite up to the all-conquering standard of the normal A Team characters. :smallsmile:

togapika
2007-12-02, 04:45 PM
I meant that the "A" party would be the ones who look nice, but turn out to be jerks, while the "B" party is the actual characters who are free to make what they want aside from the restrictions.

kamikasei
2007-12-02, 04:59 PM
I meant that the "A" party would be the ones who look nice, but turn out to be jerks, while the "B" party is the actual characters who are free to make what they want aside from the restrictions.

Hmmm, well then it sounds like a fun idea but that leaves us with less to say... what sort of input are you looking for? Ideas for the "A" party? You could play around a bit with some jokes about iconic characters from the PHB; check out the PSAs for more... Say, take the "Jozan is secretly evil" joke and implement it for real - the human cleric is actually a worshipper of some evil god or devil; you could make the charismatic bard a behind-the-scenes bad guy manipulator...

Or if that's a step too far, and you just want bad personalities for hero-lookin' types, there are plenty. Rogue is a compulsive liar as well as / instead of a kleptomaniac. The dwarf fighter is a self-hating drunk. The elf wizard is a racist, elitist prick. The human cleric has an "if you don't worship my god, I think you're scum" attitude lurking under his smiling veneer. And so on...

To a large extent it depends on how bad you want the "A" team to be. Are they actually evil but with good PR? Are they just jerks? When the "B" party has to step in, is it because the "A" guys fairly lost, came apart from internal tension, or actually switched sides?

Toliudar
2007-12-02, 05:58 PM
Half-orc wizard who is always clear that he ISN'T a rage mage.

Halfling monk who acts like a rogue, sneaking around and using stunning fist in the way that rogues use sneak attack.

Cloistered cleric of Kord - picture a rabid wrestling fan, who admires those who have the moves, but is himself a 98-pound weakling.

Kobold paladin, riding a giant lizard.

Rigon
2007-12-02, 06:07 PM
if none are taken from the players handbook...

a dwarven arcane spellcaster without a familiar (for greater surprise effect)
a halfling divine spellcaster (i've never seen noone playing a halfling cleric)
a wild elf barbarian (berserk instead of rage). oh that looks funny believe me.
something orcish looking bard.
a gnome ranger.
and a kobold rogue.

i think you could call this an unlikely party.
oh and your idea sounds like lots of fun.

puppyavenger
2007-12-02, 06:10 PM
if none are taken from the players handbook...

a dwarven arcane spellcaster without a familiar (for greater surprise effect)
a halfling divine spellcaster (i've never seen noone playing a halfling cleric)
a wild elf barbarian (berserk instead of rage). oh that looks funny believe me.
something orcish looking bard.
a gnome ranger.
and a kobold rogue.

i think you could call this an unlikely party.
oh and your idea sounds like lots of fun.

As I understand it, it's the B party (PC's) who are taken compeltly no phb,

togapika
2007-12-02, 06:15 PM
Let me explain further:
The PLAYERS will be nothing from the PHB and DMG.
I have no control over their characters
They will find out they are the "B" party

The "A" party are NPC's who are the super iconic heroes who turn out to be really screwed up. (only PHB races and classes that fit well together: Dwarven Fighter, Elven Mage, etc)
Think of it like the 8 bit theatre comic.
The NPC's are the ones everyone respects and think of as heroes, but they're actually really messed up, and when the PC's discover this, they must deal with them and become the heroes (ala Mystery Men)

Hopefully this better explains things

Illiterate Scribe
2007-12-02, 06:22 PM
Say, take the "Jozan is secretly evil" joke

It's no joke - Pelor is utterly evil. Unfortunately, Dicefreaks is down atm, and so I can't get to my absolute proof.

Drider
2007-12-02, 06:40 PM
The premise is that they will all be playing 1st level characters, but not using any of the races, classes, or prestige classes from the player's handbook.

goliath barbarian
anthromorphic animals from savage species?
what else is there?
...unearthed arcana?

greenknight
2007-12-02, 07:47 PM
goliath barbarian
anthromorphic animals from savage species?
what else is there?
...unearthed arcana?

In terms of base races, you could use campaign specific ones. For example, Eberron's Warforged and Changelings. If subraces count, Strongheart Halfling (Forgotten Realms) is also a good choice. And there's also several races from the MM, although most of them are more commonly considered to be foes for the PCs (kobolds, gnomes, orc etc).

A non-PHB party is viable, but they are going to have some problem without a traditional full Arcane caster (Sorcerer or Wizard). Still, if I were setting up a 4 person non-PHB party, I think Beguiler (PHB II), Archivist (Heroes of Horror), Favored Soul (Complete Divine) or Cloistered Cleric (Unearthed Arcana, if that's allowed), and one of the Tome of Battle classes (Crusader/Swordsage/Warblade).

PsyBlade
2007-12-02, 10:32 PM
He's asking for help with the 'A' team, not the 'B' team. The 'B' team are PCs, he needs NPC help.

Orzel
2007-12-02, 11:30 PM
Human Fighter- Idiot, unwise, and otherwise useless
Dwarven Cleric- Forces his inefficient religious beliefs on others causing no progress in any actions
Elven Wizard- Causes destruction and death wherever she goes
Halfling Rogue- Secreting steals everything not nailed down or killing people for their belongings
Half-Elf Bard- Is constantly being chased by a mob for obvious bardic reasons

Manticorkscrew
2007-12-02, 11:31 PM
Let me explain further:
The PLAYERS will be nothing from the PHB and DMG.
I have no control over their characters
They will find out they are the "B" party

The "A" party are NPC's who are the super iconic heroes who turn out to be really screwed up. (only PHB races and classes that fit well together: Dwarven Fighter, Elven Mage, etc)
Think of it like the 8 bit theatre comic.
The NPC's are the ones everyone respects and think of as heroes, but they're actually really messed up, and when the PC's discover this, they must deal with them and become the heroes (ala Mystery Men)

Hopefully this better explains things


Actually, I got that part.

I'm still wondering what you expect us to do, though. :smallconfused:

What do you really need help with? It looks like you know what you're doing already. Do you just want us to say that it looks like an interesting concept? What? Give me a clue, please.

Doresain
2007-12-03, 12:04 AM
elven wizard-really lazy, uses magic to do everything...even move around (animated chair?)
halfling rogue-prefers to steal food stuffs, even from other party members...fairly chubby
human cleric-womanizer to the extreme...evil austin powers as a clergyman
dwarven fighter-greedy to the extreme...all of his gear is either gold plated or platinum plated (your choice) and made to look really shiny

togapika
2007-12-03, 12:14 AM
I was thinking the first adventure could be to enter a goblin stronghold, only the goblins aren't actually bad guys and party "A" has made a mess of them and their home.

Doresain
2007-12-03, 12:17 AM
you need to play Overlord...that will give you great ideas for the "A" party

MCerberus
2007-12-03, 12:18 AM
I think that the game Overlord (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overlord_%282007_video_game%29) had a lot of hilarious fantasy tropes upside-down that you could serve as some inspiration to what you want.

edit- CURSE YOU FORUM NINJA! *shakes fist*

Guy_Whozevl
2007-12-03, 12:46 AM
It's no joke - Pelor is utterly evil. Unfortunately, Dicefreaks is down atm, and so I can't get to my absolute proof.

Proof: Look in Heroes of Horror. Jozan is a vampire out to drain his "friends." They claim another vampire did this to him. My opinion? I think not!

Prometheus
2007-12-03, 12:54 AM
A Doppleganger Samaurai!
A Hill Giant Soul Knife!
An Ogre Mage Psion!
WHAT COULD GO WRONG?

Doresain
2007-12-03, 10:52 AM
A Doppleganger Samaurai!
A Hill Giant Soul Knife!
An Ogre Mage Psion!
WHAT COULD GO WRONG?

gorion is killed by sarevok, thats what happens

Triaxx
2007-12-03, 03:30 PM
No, Gorion kills Sarevok is what could go wrong. The universe unravels, and Volo is the hero, with Elminster run out of town. :smallbiggrin:

Shishnarfne
2007-12-03, 03:47 PM
Well, the simple way would be some mix of the following sort of classes:

Favored Soul, Spirit Shaman (other healing classes I'm not looking up)
Psion, Warmage, Wilder, Warlock (pseudo-replacement for arcanist)
Factotum, Ninja (skill monkey)
Swashbuckler, Hexblade, Duskblade, Knight (tank, see also ToB chars)

XPH has a few +0 LAs (Elan, Xeph), though I think you want little-used.

Say, a goblin swashbuckler?
A Xeph favored Soul?
A kobold psion/wilder?
An orc factotum?

I'd say try to figure out base classes you think are interesting flavor-wise but not used much, and try to figure out a non-PhB race that would be funny to take the class. Because a 2'6" kobold getting everyone convinced they want to kill him (Knight) just strikes me as funny.

I'd agree with Greenknight's ideas as a decent place to start brain-storming.

Can someone post a link that lists level adjustment +0 races? I think that Wizards has one posted somewhere on their boards. That might help.

goat
2007-12-03, 04:59 PM
Make everyone play a stupid elf variant.

Then have everyone hate them.

Poxy elves.