Symbiotic Template PC at ECL 2?

[Condé]

Hello,

I asked a similar question in the RAW thread but I have a lot more questions than that and actually, I don't want to spam the thread with many questions... And there is probably a lot of room for debate and, probably too, arguments.

Let's say you want to play a Symbiotic PC as early as possible. The rules for the template are, at best, pretty bague, broken at worst. I mean, even the sample is illegal. (The sample show a Bugsucker, a combination of a Stirge and a Bugbear... Problem is, a stirge is a magical beast and magical beasts are not in the list of allowed type you can mix to make a symbiotic creature...)

I have several questions related to this template.

1. How do the dice roll is working in that case?

Do you roll for each character (The host and the guest)?
Do you roll only for the guest / host and take the average for the other?

Most of the time, people assume average stats I feel like. But I managed to saw only one or two people talking about rolling stats for symbiotic and that was because of getting t he template at character creation. I only saw once the "Roll for both" and... I don't know what to feel about "Only roll for one of the two" since it makes since but not that much. (Which one is the right one in that case?)

And not rolling for stats would be strange... But if you roll for stats for a host, and it is a vermin or an animal, since they are not playable characters to begin with, how do you roll for them and what about intelligence and... There is so many questions... Which lead us to the next point.

2. How do the intelligence works?

If you don't roll for stats, how do that even works? There is multiple issues or questions.
The template says:
Abilities: Use the physical scores (Strength, Dexterity,
Constitution) of the host, and the mental scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma) of the guest (minimum Intelligence 3).

Do that means, if you are playing a vermin/animal as the guest, that your intelligence is bringed to 3?
That would mean if you are playing an animal, then... You are no longer an animal. I think you only have to fulfill the requirements in order to get the template but it doesn't matter if you do not afterward. So, if your guest is an animal, the template give it an itelligence of 3, it becomes a magical beast, but since you were an animal before, it still works...
For a vermin. I guess you lose the mindless quality and just get 3, as the template tell us.

Or at least you could play a Junior Worker Myconid and have 9 intelligence and be able to... Spread spores.

Is that right?

3. Hit dices

You take the hit dices of the host. It is pretty clear that you do not add guest's hit dices... In the given sample anyway it doesn't. (But at this point we all know the sample is not really the best example)
I don't think you get the LA from the guest either. (Which is the starting point of a lot of abuse and that is not what this thread is about)

Since the guest hit dices are not involved, if you start as a humanoid with 1HD, like 99% of any character, do you still replace it with a class hit dice? I guess so but I couldn't be sure at 100%.

4. LA: "-"

I suppose you are playing the guest more than you are playing the host. The host is just your body, the guest is the "mind". But that is a bit problematic since... Most of the guests are, technically, unavailable for PCs.
I mean, Animals are not playable since they do not have any LA. Same for vermins, (Hairy Spider is an exception but we all know this is probably a mistake from the errata)

So... How do that works? Do the host or the template allow you to play any guest? Do you need to find a guest with a LA?
Am I asking too much questions and overcomplicating an already messed up template for no apparent reason? (probably)

5. The "result" (Raw legal, not law legal. I'm probably not going to jail for that.)

Let's say guest LA doesn't matter. (Either by being LA+50 or LA -) and you can play as a vermin. Let's say you roll the stats for the host and average for the guest. You'd end up with an intelligence of 3, which is close to what I've got irl. So it'll be fine.

Let's be boring and take a human as a host. Then let's take a weasel as a guest because, let's say, the weasel attached itself to someone and that someone was not able to detach the weasel from themself and they both went with it and decided to live like that forever.
(And because the sample has the stirge and the stirge has "attach" like the weasel as an (ex) ability.)

a.Your character would have
HD: 1 Class HD
LA: +1

Right?

b.But what about the stats?

Stats: Rolled for both? Roll for the host or guest? Average for both?
Intelligence: Does the template make it 3 if it is not already? Does the template only allow you to have minimum 3 to take it?

6. Final words

I saw a lot of thread talking about how you break that stuff but almost none where people try not to abuse it or even understand it in a practical level. Nobody want to be an ethereal swarm controlling a feral, lolth-touched, mineral lightning warrior, because no same DM would allow that.
I'm just curious to know how you could play one in a regular game.

[Gruftzwerg]

Symbiotic template as PC is a bit tricky and not as easy as you might initially think.

-1- Since the guest controls the host, you don't wanna be the host. Because as host you lose control over the body to the guest.

-2- Being the guest brings his own problems. Since the guest becomes a template for the host, it effectively stops to exist as "character". "Character" as in gaining XP. A template doesn't gain XP. Thus as long as you are the guest, you don't get xp. Sole the host can further gain XP.

From the first glance this makes it impossible for a normal PC to use the template. You need to get tricky to abuse the template as PC. And we haven't even talked about the size problem (host must be at least 2 size categories bigger).

I heavily suggest to be careful with the template, since the +1LA is imho definitively to cheap and allows to much abuse.

If you really intend to abuse it, there are only a few legal option (for PC) I have discovered so far:

1) Abuse Ice Assassins (or Simulacrum if you can't afford IA) as host instead of your real body. Polymorph the IA temporary into a legal size & form for the template. (I've used a more deluxe version of this in my Orochimaru build for the Curse Mark)

2) Dvati twins are another option. One twin can become the template (again via polymorphing/wildshaping into the right size and form) while the other twin still continuous to exist and thus can still gain XP. (See my Sakon & Ukon build for a optimized application of this).

3) Be a warlock and take either Crawling Eye or Disembodied Hand (or both is you wanna go really silly). These produce a diminutive sized creature, that except the size and some altered stats like AC and movement has "otherwise identical stats". As such it counts as a diminutive humanoid, perfect as guest for the template. Since the warlock doesn't use his own main body for the template, he can still gain XP as normal. Since the host now also has access to the invocations, he can also do the same trick. If you complete a circle (by giving you the last template in the chain) all creatures share their abilities with each other (see my BORG Queen (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?643998)build).

Final Conclusion of mine:
You don't start as a Symbiotic character unless you are given to much DM fiat. Any sane DM shouldn't allow the template by fiat. If you wanna allow it, the PC should do it legally himself. The template is to OP imho to be just handed over. And even then the DM should keep a close eye on the power lvl of that PC compared to the others.

[Condé]

...If you really intend to abuse it, there are only a few legal option (for PC)...



That is exactly what I am not looking for. Abuse it. There is already a bunch of thread about that.
I'm trying to be as "RAI/RAW" as possible. No template stacking, no unplayable race by RAW and stay relatively in line with other pc races. I'm pretty sure you can manage to do something similar to an average LA+1 template or race with this template.
(Even tho I must admit, RAI must be difficult in that situation since I'm not really sure the designers had the time to really think about it that much. And since there is no errata...)

No racial hit dice, no LA abuse. Just straight up playable at many tables (even tho, most DM would not accept it since it is kinda strange and there is almost no crunch in the book to explain how two creatures happen to this kind of agreement... I mean, the template allow a humanoid to be the host of an animal... How the heck a toad is supposed to takje control of a human in the first place?)

[Gruftzwerg]

That is exactly what I am not looking for. Abuse it. There is already a bunch of thread about that.
I'm trying to be as "RAI/RAW" as possible. No template stacking, no unplayable race by RAW and stay relatively in line with other pc races. I'm pretty sure you can manage to do something similar to an average LA+1 template or race with this template.
(Even tho I must admit, RAI must be difficult in that situation since I'm not really sure the designers had the time to really think about it that much. And since there is no errata...)

No racial hit dice, no LA abuse. Just straight up playable at many tables (even tho, most DM would not accept it since it is kinda strange and there is almost no crunch in the book to explain how two creatures happen to this kind of agreement... I mean, the template allow a humanoid to be the host of an animal... How the heck a toad is supposed to takje control of a human in the first place?)

Sorry but I doubt that this is possible for a "normal" PC without any cheese/abuse due to the mentioned 2 problems:

1. If you are the host, you lose control over your body to the guest. You are basically an NPC now..

2. If you are the guest, you become a template. As such you don't get any XP and don't progress anymore.

You could at best be the guest (and stay forever at the same lvl) and lvl the host creature if your DM allows that (DM fiat). Maybe play an anthropomorphic creature and use it (in animal form) as guest? That is the sole possibility. But that remains DM fiat imho and is not 100% RAW/RAI.
You shouldn't also forget the requirement that the two need to feel a deep bound somehow. A deeper bound than normal friendship or partnership. And unless you are roleplaying that convincingly in an actual session (again not impossible but not so easy either), you need to rely on cheese to accomplish that (e.g. Devil's Whispers is suggestion at will that makes the victim believe it was its own idea upon a failed will save).
Otherwise you need DM fiat to bypass that "deep bound" requirement. And remind you, that is the sole requirement the template has. For TO showcase purposes, no problem to assume role-play-requirements as given. For actual play it is a problem, if we go strict RAW/RAI as you said. I mean, just imagine what you would have to do to role play convincingly a deep bound that would qualify as basis for a symbiotic relationship.

[loky1109]

2. If you are the guest, you become a template. As such you don't get any XP and don't progress anymore.
Where did you take it from? What do you mean "become a template"? Creature can't become a template.
You become part of creature and I don't see any RAW obstacles to progress abd getting XP.
Especially, if all subsequent live will be together, host and guess aren't separate creatures in this case, but single one.

[ciopo]

1) you use the racial modifiers of the hsot for str/dex/con and the guest racial modifiers for int/wis/cha , see "playing as monster" on how to convert. Example a half orc host with a symbiotic owl will have a combined racial modifiers of +2 str -8 int -6 cha. If it was an aasimar host it would be still -8int +4 wis -6cha, because the hsot mental modifiers are ignored.

[Gruftzwerg]

Where did you take it from? What do you mean "become a template"? Creature can't become a template.
You become part of creature and I don't see any RAW obstacles to progress abd getting XP.
Especially, if all subsequent live will be together, host and guess aren't separate creatures in this case, but single one.

While it ain't spelled out in the rules, all the symbiotic template rules indicate that "host" gets enhanced by the "guest".

Have a look at the feats and skills:

Skills: A symbiotic creature uses the host’s skill ranks,
adjusted to account for the changed ability scores of the
overall symbiotic creature. The skill ranks of the guest
become racial bonuses of the symbiotic creature. All the
original racial skill bonuses of both the host and the guest
also apply.
Feats: A symbiotic creature retains the host’s feats and
gains the guest’s feats as bonus feats.

A template provides a base creature with stuff like "bonuses". As you can see, it's the host's stats that gets enhanced by the guest's stats. Imho evidence that the guest has become the template.

Finally we have this:

Advancement: As host or by character class.
Level Adjustment: +1.

The host is the one character mechanically remaining that is able to to further advance. The guest can't advance. The simplest explanation is that the guest has become the +1 template technically.

Assume a symbiotic creature which advances as "host" for some levels. If at some point the guest "Detaches", what happens to the now 2 creatures? The former host keeps his advancement as long as it is still legal, while the guest has remained unchanged. Any other ruling would cause dysfunctions here, which should prove my interpretation here.

The host can still get XP while the guest can not. The simplest explanation is that the guest becomes effectively the template. No matter how you look at it, the guest effectively stops to exist as XP earning character as long as the template is "active" (not detached).

[loky1109]

I don't want argue with you. It's too irritating.


If at some point the guest "Detaches", what happens to the now 2 creatures?
Equivalent options:
1) only guest advanced;
2) only host advanced;
3) no one advanced;
4) both advanced and have full XP;
5) both advanced and have half XP.
Rules is silent about this, it's up to DM.
As DM I'd say: who is PC - advanced, who isn't - doesn't matter.

[ShurikVch]

Well, firstly: Symbiotic Creature is one example of badly-written content, so some of the questions may just have no answers: for example, I still don't know how to calculate LA there - should it be "guest+1" or "host+1", or even "guest+host+1"?


Do that means, if you are playing a vermin/animal as the guest, that your intelligence is bringed to 3?
Yes - unless it's Awakened Animal/Vermin


I mean, Animals are not playable since they do not have any LA. Same for vermins, (Hairy Spider is an exception but we all know this is probably a mistake from the errata)
Note: Dragon #293 published article with ECL for a number of Animals, Beasts, Magical Beasts, Plants, and Vermin from the Monster Manual
Also, Sword Spider got LA +3 (from the same source as Hairy Spider), and Fang of Lolth get Vermin type at capstone...

[Troacctid]

Well, firstly: Symbiotic Creature is one example of badly-written content, so some of the questions may just have no answers: for example, I still don't know how to calculate LA there - should it be "guest+1" or "host+1", or even "guest+host+1"?
It's neither.

The key with the symbiotic template is that it is applied to two creatures, and it allows those two creatures to combine, but they are still two creatures, each with their own separate ECL to which the +1 LA is applied.

This presents a difficulty for PC use because a PC is just one character. To have a symbiotic pair, you need two chaarcters, which usually means either two players must collude together and join forces, or you need to take Leadership and have your cohort be the other half of the pair, or you need your DM to just...let you play two PCs, I guess.

But once you figure out this basic setup, I think most of the other rules around the template fall into place from there.

[Condé]

It's neither.

The key with the symbiotic template is that it is applied to two creatures, and it allows those two creatures to combine, but they are still two creatures, each with their own separate ECL to which the +1 LA is applied.

This presents a difficulty for PC use because a PC is just one character. To have a symbiotic pair, you need two chaarcters, which usually means either two players must collude together and join forces, or you need to take Leadership and have your cohort be the other half of the pair, or you need your DM to just...let you play two PCs, I guess.

But once you figure out this basic setup, I think most of the other rules around the template fall into place from there.

Wouldn't that imply that a Symbiotic creature has got 2 separate set of actions? One for the host and one for the guest?
Because otherwise, imagine playing basically one character with another person. I mean, some people are afraid to play summoners because of microgestion but that is a bit exagereted at this point. :smallbiggrin:

[Troacctid]

Wouldn't that imply that a Symbiotic creature has got 2 separate set of actions? One for the host and one for the guest?
Because otherwise, imagine playing basically one character with another person. I mean, some people are afraid to play summoners because of microgestion but that is a bit exagereted at this point. :smallbiggrin:
If they separate, they get separate actions. But then they don't get much benefit out of being symbiotic.

[Gruftzwerg]

It's neither.

The key with the symbiotic template is that it is applied to two creatures, and it allows those two creatures to combine, but they are still two creatures, each with their own separate ECL to which the +1 LA is applied.

This presents a difficulty for PC use because a PC is just one character. To have a symbiotic pair, you need two chaarcters, which usually means either two players must collude together and join forces, or you need to take Leadership and have your cohort be the other half of the pair, or you need your DM to just...let you play two PCs, I guess.

But once you figure out this basic setup, I think most of the other rules around the template fall into place from there.
Sorry but I have to heavily argue against this. Have a look at the "Attack:" line:

Attacks: A symbiotic creature uses the host’s base attack bonus and attack forms. However, if the guest has a different attack form (such as a stinger), the symbiotic creature can make a secondary attack with that weapon. All attacks use the host’s Strength or Dexterity modifier, as appropriate.
If the guest is Tiny or smaller, using its attack(s) would normally require entering the opponent’s space. Since it is
now part of a larger being, the only way to bring its attack(s) to bear is by entering a grapple and getting a hold.
If we end up with 2 symbiont that means we have 2 creature and not a single one.
2 creatures would mean 2 sets of actions for a single body, allowing the host and the guest to use the attack of the host normally and adding his own as secondary.
Sorry but I don't buy that the resulting body of the symbiont is kinda super hasted and has double the actions for a body. I mean 2 Full Attacks for a single body.. really? I don't think so.

As shown, multiple text passages indicating that the guest becomes the template and that the host is the one profiting from the template.




Well, firstly: Symbiotic Creature is one example of badly-written content, so some of the questions may just have no answers: for example, I still don't know how to calculate LA there - should it be "guest+1" or "host+1", or even "guest+host+1"?


Yes - unless it's Awakened Animal/Vermin


Note: Dragon #293 published article with ECL for a number of Animals, Beasts, Magical Beasts, Plants, and Vermin from the Monster Manual
Also, Sword Spider got LA +3 (from the same source as Hairy Spider), and Fang of Lolth get Vermin type at capstone...
As said before, sole the host can advance. As such, it is the sole technically existing creature here and the most logical assumption should be that the guest has become the template (and thus stopped temporary to exist a "technical creature for regards to gaining XP".

_____________________

btw, Hit Dice is another indicator for that:

Hit Dice: A symbiotic creature uses the host’s Hit Dice and Constitution modifier.
Everything indicates that it is the host that gets enhanced by the template (and thus receives the +1LA).

__________

And while we are Symbiotic Template cheese: If you would gain a new lvl as +0LA character, just "Detach"; level up; and attach 24h later. This way the +1LA only affects you for gaining XP but not for the lvl up. Cheesy but kinda RAW..^^

[loky1109]

As said before, sole the host can advance.
Yes, you said that. But bring no proof, just your opinion.

[ShurikVch]

Same for vermins, (Hairy Spider is an exception but we all know this is probably a mistake from the errata)
One more instance of (kinda) playable Vermin: according to the Monsters by Challenge Rating table (Epic Level Handbook), Demilich is ECL 33 while being 21 HD, thus - LA +12
And, according to the 3.5 Revision Update for Epic Level Handbook, Demilich is a Vermin!
(Didn't they mean "Demileech"?)

[icefractal]

It's pretty weird, now that I look at it. On the basis that the guest's mind is in control, I'd assume that it would be the one getting any XP (like if you go adventuring while Magic Jar possessing an Ogre, it's you who gets XP, not the Ogre). But there is this:

Advancement: As host or by character class.Although "Advancement" for monster purposes is not necessarily the same as a PC gaining levels.

The other issue is - if they're two creatures, it's not even clear you can play one as a PC without special permission (like, you can't declare "My character is a dozen Petals (tiny fey) inside a cloak, disguised as a single human"), but if they're a single creature, then who are they - the host or the guest? Or a new creature entirely? (In which case it also raises questions whether you can play as one).

It's kind of the same problem as Fusion -> Astral Seed. Ok yes, you have created a creature that has a very similar personality, memories, and goals to yourself. But that doesn't mean it is yourself. Arguably your PC is still dead, and all you've done is provided the GM with a new NPC. Like, if you brainwash Elminster into believing that he is you, that doesn't mean Elminster is now your PC, does it?

[Thurbane]

(The sample show a Bugsucker, a combination of a Stirge and a Bugbear... Problem is, a stirge is a magical beast and magical beasts are not in the list of allowed type you can mix to make a symbiotic creature...)

Just an aside, Stirges were classed as beasts back then, not magical beasts, which were a different type.

Still, unless beasts were considered animals, you are correct about the sample creature being illegal.

[Gruftzwerg]

Yes, you said that. But bring no proof, just your opinion.
I tried to show the text passages that indicate that my interpretation seems to be right. More than you did so far. You once again just rant about my explanation without providing any arguments yourself.
So far my interpretation seems to cause the least dysfunctions here, just as side note. How about that, causing no dysfunctions? Ain't that important for a good interpretation of rule text?


It's pretty weird, now that I look at it. On the basis that the guest's mind is in control, I'd assume that it would be the one getting any XP (like if you go adventuring while Magic Jar possessing an Ogre, it's you who gets XP, not the Ogre). But there is this:
Although "Advancement" for monster purposes is not necessarily the same as a PC gaining levels.

The other issue is - if they're two creatures, it's not even clear you can play one as a PC without special permission (like, you can't declare "My character is a dozen Petals (tiny fey) inside a cloak, disguised as a single human"), but if they're a single creature, then who are they - the host or the guest? Or a new creature entirely? (In which case it also raises questions whether you can play as one).

It's kind of the same problem as Fusion -> Astral Seed. Ok yes, you have created a creature that has a very similar personality, memories, and goals to yourself. But that doesn't mean it is yourself. Arguably your PC is still dead, and all you've done is provided the GM with a new NPC. Like, if you brainwash Elminster into believing that he is you, that doesn't mean Elminster is now your PC, does it?
I agree that it seems that the guest is in control (due to the mental stats and that the alignment is often that of the guest, which means, the guest is the one deciding if he suppresses the host mind or not). But as said, we have also indicators that sole the host is the one advancing here. Those advancements can become illegal if the symbiosis ends, even if just detached. (e.g. the former host Monster has now illegal class level advancement)

Here another argument that shows that we end with a single symbiotic character:

A symbiotic relationship is a sort of benign parasitism,
where both host and “guest” enjoy mutual benefits. The
most successful partnerships bond the two creatures so
tightly that they become virtually one.
Further, we sole have a single statblock and not two. If it would be 2 creatures we would have 2 statblocks or at least some kind of indicator reflecting that. But the text sole speaks of a single symbiotic creature having "this and that".
Most lines start with "A symbiotic creature ..." and not with "The symbiotic creatures.."
Really, I don't see any indicator for resulting in 2 creatures here.

regarding the mind:
Brainwashing (e.g. Charm; Mind Rape;...) someone ain't the same as inserting your mind directly into the body of someone (Magic jar; (True) Mind Switch; Symbiotic template; ..).
Imho brainwashing (victim remains a NPC) is indirect control (requires actions for commanding the target), while inserting your mind is direct control over the (former NPC) body (mechanically: your actions = the body's actions).

[Condé]

Just an aside, Stirges were classed as beasts back then, not magical beasts, which were a different type.

Still, unless beasts were considered animals, you are correct about the sample creature being illegal.

To be honest, I was expecting something like that. Still funny that, even then, it is still illegal.
What could have happened is, because Savage Species was released just before 3.5, they thought the stirge was going to be an animal, like most of beast I believe and then it would have been legal. But the stirge was made a magical beast instead.

But this is pure speculation at this point.

Or... Maybe they just did not double check and make a mistake. Which doesn't matter anyway since the whole template is a mess, as we can see here since nobody seem to agree with each other.

I strongly believe that you become only one entity and that they sould not have made detach an option, since it brings nothing but troubles. I mean, sure your character is 2 entities but without the detach ability, you would have been only one forever. So no question asked about what you are playing. But since you can Detach, yes I believe we can ask which entity is earning the xp, which entity the player is controlling etc...

[loky1109]

I'm every time think stirges are aberrations.