Expert Divination and Gift of Alacrity

[Silpharon]

Expert Divination states (quoted only in-part):

When you cast a divination spell of 2nd level or higher using a spell slot, you regain one expended spell slot. The slot you regain must be of a level lower than the spell you cast and can't be higher than 5th level.

Would this work on Gift of Alacrity (received through say Fey Touched feat) if cast at 2nd or higher level? If so, I could chain castings to cover a party of 4 with one 4th level spell slot. That sounds worth a 4th level slot, as opposed to 4 1st level slots. I'd love to combine this with Extended Spell near the end of a long rest.

This would also support Hunter's Mark, to regain concentration by upping the used spell slot level.

The real question is whether a spell cast at 2nd level is considered a 2nd level spell. I believe if the popular upcast "waterfalling" works for any spells (e.g. Mind Spike) this must be true. "The slot you regain must be of a level lower than the spell you cast." Note that it does not say "lower than the slot used to cast the spell".

Thoughts?

[Persolus]

When you cast a divination spell of 2nd level or higher using a spell slot, you regain one expended spell slot. The slot you regain must be of a level lower than the spell you cast and can't be higher than 5th level.

Gift of Alacrity is a 1st-Level spell, regardless of upcasting.

From my understanding, this wording also means that if you upcast a 2nd level divination spell at 5th level, this ability would only allow you to regain a 1st level spell slot.

[Mastikator]

When you cast a spell with a higher level spell slot the spell counts as being of that level.

When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting. For instance, if Umara casts magic missile using one of her 2nd-level slots, that magic missile is 2nd level. Effectively, the spell expands to fill the slot it is put into.

[Chaos Jackal]

What Mastikator said. In fact, one of the most popular uses of Expert Divination is getting "free" casts of out of combat divination spells by using upcast mind spike in combat.

So yes, you can buff your entire party with gift of alacrity this way if you so wish.

[Aimeryan]

One potential pitfall is that you regain the slot, not get an extra; practically, this means you must already be missing a 3rd, 2nd, and 1st level spell slot to do what is being proposed. This means you have either spent those slots on something out of combat, or have gone through a number of combats before casting your Gifts.

Rest casting is likely preferable here, although you may not have all the slots still free at the end of the day to get four casts.

[Rukelnikov]

One potential pitfall is that you regain the slot, not get an extra; practically, this means you must already be missing a 3rd, 2nd, and 1st level spell slot to do what is being proposed. This means you have either spent those slots on something out of combat, or have gone through a number of combats before casting your Gifts.

Rest casting is likely preferable here, although you may not have all the slots still free at the end of the day to get four casts.

The tactic still works the same, instead of starting the buffs with the 4th level spell, you start with the 1st level one, then use a 2nd lvl slot and refresh the 1st lvl one, eventually you are "only" missing a 4th level slot. Whether that's better than spending 4 1st level slots I think depends on the character.

[MrStabby]

One potential pitfall is that you regain the slot, not get an extra; practically, this means you must already be missing a 3rd, 2nd, and 1st level spell slot to do what is being proposed. This means you have either spent those slots on something out of combat, or have gone through a number of combats before casting your Gifts.

Rest casting is likely preferable here, although you may not have all the slots still free at the end of the day to get four casts.

Well some of this is easy - first level spell slot can be a long lasting mage armour. That means you can open with a level 2 slot... which conveniently can get you mind spike and get you on a roll.

To get good value from the feature, you don't have to use it perfectly at all.

[Aimeryan]

The tactic still works the same, instead of starting the buffs with the 4th level spell, you start with the 1st level one, then use a 2nd lvl slot and refresh the 1st lvl one, eventually you are "only" missing a 4th level slot. Whether that's better than spending 4 1st level slots I think depends on the character.

Thats true; you spend the 1st, then the 2nd (refresh 1st), then 3rd (refresh 2nd), then 4th (refresh 3rd). Fair enough.

[Segev]

I think I'd rather Twin two first level slots (since we're talking about extending spell durations) than (effectively) spend a 4th level slot for 4 castings. If you're rest-casting or casting just before the long rest, and that's why you're extending the spell duration, it probably is just a question of what spell slots you have left - extra 1st level ones, or a 4th level one - as to how you do it. But if you're doing it in the morning, I would prefer twinning two first level slots, myself.

[LudicSavant]

Expert Divination states (quoted only in-part):

When you cast a divination spell of 2nd level or higher using a spell slot, you regain one expended spell slot. The slot you regain must be of a level lower than the spell you cast and can't be higher than 5th level.

Would this work on Gift of Alacrity (received through say Fey Touched feat) if cast at 2nd or higher level? If so, I could chain castings to cover a party of 4 with one 4th level spell slot. That sounds worth a 4th level slot, as opposed to 4 1st level slots. I'd love to combine this with Extended Spell near the end of a long rest.

This would also support Hunter's Mark, to regain concentration by upping the used spell slot level.

The real question is whether a spell cast at 2nd level is considered a 2nd level spell. I believe if the popular upcast "waterfalling" works for any spells (e.g. Mind Spike) this must be true. "The slot you regain must be of a level lower than the spell you cast." Note that it does not say "lower than the slot used to cast the spell".

Thoughts?

Yes, it works, and is but one of the many, many, many reasons that Gift of Alacrity is a silly spell that should have never existed.

[Segev]

Yes, it works, and is but one of the many, many, many reasons that Gift of Alacrity is a silly spell that should have never existed.

Really? "You can use a 4th level slot to cast it on your whole party" is a reason it's silly and shouldn't exist? :smallconfused:

[LudicSavant]

Really? "You can use a 4th level slot to cast it on your whole party" is a reason it's silly and shouldn't exist? :smallconfused:

It's silly that you can put it on your party all day by a variety of efficient means, whether it's just using 4 level 1 slots, doing it as a "1 hour ritual" with short rest slots, using the Diviner's Matryoshka doll feature, or whatever.

The biggest reason it's silly and shouldn't exist is because it's basically buffed Nerveskitter (from 3.5e), and Nerveskitter was already in "bland Wizard power creep spell" territory. Everything else is gravy.

[Segev]

The biggest reason it's silly and shouldn't exist is because it's basically buffed Nerveskitter (from 3.5e), and Nerveskitter was already in "boring Wizard stat creep spell" territory. Everything else is gravy.

I mean, sure, that's a valid argument. (Not 100% sure I agree; in 5e, wizards going first is not nearly as important as it was in 3.5, and it's often better to use it on your fighter or - if you have one - your assassin...but it's a valid argument). But I don't see, "One subclass can use a 4th level spell slot to cast it on most of his party," as a reason it's worse than it already was.

It's bad on its own merits (if it's bad); this doesn't make it worse (or expand the cases where it's bad).

[JackPhoenix]

Yes, it works, and is but one of the many, many, many reasons that Gift of Alacrity is a silly spell that should have never existed.

Considering the spells are only available to 2 Wildemouth subclasses or with an explicit DM permission (no, you can't just get them through Fey Touched without said permission), they are hardly a problem.

[Segev]

Considering the spells are only available to 2 Wildemouth subclasses or with an explicit DM permission (no, you can't just get them through Fey Touched without said permission), they are hardly a problem.

And I mean, even if you could get them through Fey Touched, it's hardly "wizard supremacy" at that point. It's a feat. Anybody could take it.

[diplomancer]

Considering the spells are only available to 2 Wildemouth subclasses or with an explicit DM permission (no, you can't just get them through Fey Touched without said permission), they are hardly a problem.
Fey-touched is an optional feat from a splat-book, so obviously it requires DM's permission to even get the feat. But there is no rule that says that, once the feat is allowed, you can't get Gift of Alacrity with it, though the DM is free to ban that particular choice, as usual.

(The rules for dunamancy spells only state that they "should not be simply added to the full spell lists of other spellcasting classes". This rule is not being violated by this class-agnostic Feat)

Of course, a DM could also ban it they way AL does it-by not permitting the source, but that goes without saying. If a DM for whatever reason bans Xanathar and accepts Tasha, Beast Bond is not a valid option for the feat, but not one that people would argue about.

[Keravath]

Considering the spells are only available to 2 Wildemouth subclasses or with an explicit DM permission (no, you can't just get them through Fey Touched without said permission), they are hardly a problem.

I'd tend to agree with this. Gift of Alacrity is a Wildemount spell. A DM is under no obligation whatsoever to include Wildemount content in any campaign they are running (especially if it has nothing to do with that particular setting) so I don't really see this as much of an issue. Similarly, a player couldn't expect Silvery Barbs to be readily available which is from the Strixhaven source book. (Personally, I don't allow content from either of those sources in my current games).

In terms of the feat itself, it only specifies 1st level enchantment or divination spells without limiting the spell lists so presumably any 1st level spell available in that game world would be eligible for the feat.

As far as the OP's question goes - yes a divination wizard can cast gift of alacrity on several characters while only having to spend the highest level slot - this effectively allows the spell to be upcast by adding one additional target for every level above first with the spell casting time increasing by one minute for every level above first - though it is still consecutive discrete castings of the spell. Whether it is better spending four first level slots to affect four characters or one fourth level slot to do the same thing really depends on the character and the opportunity costs of 4 x 1st vs 1 x 4th.

[ftafp]

Gift of Alacrity is a 1st-Level spell, regardless of upcasting.

From my understanding, this wording also means that if you upcast a 2nd level divination spell at 5th level, this ability would only allow you to regain a 1st level spell slot.

This is wrong. the phb rules for upcasting explicitly state that when you upcast a spell it becomes the new level

[LudicSavant]

And I mean, even if you could get them through Fey Touched, it's hardly "wizard supremacy" at that point. It's a feat. Anybody could take it.

It's not an issue of "Wizard supremacy." I personally think it's a spell that never should have existed, whether we're talking about just Chronurgists, or for pretty much anything else that happens to get its hands on it. It's already a bland power creep spell in its base use case (it's basically "all day action economy free Nerveskitter for an already-top-tier subclass"), and it has plenty of super-efficient options outside of that (like, say, a Warlock with Fey-Touched being able to just put it on the whole party then short-rest the slots back).

[Silpharon]

Alright, thanks guys. I'm trying to find utility out of Expert Divination. It's tough, as I don't really think Mind Spike is worth casting most of the time (requires concentration), and I think many of the Locate X spells are going to be inconsistent if used regularly (DM can prevent detection). Other decent choices are:

Hunter's Mark for a gish
Borrowed Knowledge (if allowed, talk about Wizard power creep...)
Detect Thoughts for a low combat day
Find Traps (maybe picked up through multi-classing)
See Invisibility

And more niche:
Clairvoyance
Arcane Eye
Scrying

Am I missing something big?

[Segev]

Why do you see arcane eye, clairvoyance, and scrying as highly situational?

Arcane eye is a very useful scouting tool and clairvoyance lets you peer beyond walls and doors you can't otherwise see past. Scrying is great for finding people and finding out what they're doing.

[diplomancer]

(like, say, a Warlock with Fey-Touched being able to just put it on the whole party then short-rest the slots back).

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[Rukelnikov]

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And where in the PHB does it say that? I thought Warlocks recovering slots in a short rest was their tradeoff for having only 2 for most of the game.

[diplomancer]

And where in the PHB does it say that? I thought Warlocks recovering slots in a short rest was their tradeoff for having only 2 for most of the game.

I know, right?

[Amnestic]

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[diplomancer]

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[Chaos Jackal]

Alright, thanks guys. I'm trying to find utility out of Expert Divination. It's tough, as I don't really think Mind Spike is worth casting most of the time (requires concentration), and I think many of the Locate X spells are going to be inconsistent if used regularly (DM can prevent detection). Other decent choices are:

Hunter's Mark for a gish
Borrowed Knowledge (if allowed, talk about Wizard power creep...)
Detect Thoughts for a low combat day
Find Traps (maybe picked up through multi-classing)
See Invisibility

And more niche:
Clairvoyance
Arcane Eye
Scrying

Am I missing something big?

You're finding find traps, one of the worst spells in the game and ridiculously inconsistent by default, more consistent than locate creature/object? All the Expert Divination in the world can't make something out of nothing, which is precisely what find traps does.

Anyway, Expert Divination shines precisely with the things you called niche, because said spells aren't niche but they might not always feel "worth" casting, especially with a DM who makes a point of screwing over divination attempts because they find them cheap or something. Practically speaking, chaining scrying, arcane eye and clairvoyance, possibly alongside a locating spell, can tell you most or all of the things you want to know about your next endeavor with what is ultimately a single slot, unless your DM is an outright bastard when it comes to divinations.

In regards to other spells you can consider, an actually niche but very useful when applicable spell is tongues. This is more or less the definition of Expert Divination value, a spell that you'd normally think twice about using even in a favorable situation but that becomes effectively free thanks to the feature and can help a lot when cast. The rest you've already mentioned, unless you're made of money, in which case legend lore might end up handy. But the monetary cost aside, that is indeed a spell which can very easily turn out to be useless. There's also fortune's favor if you're rich, but the only ways for a non-Chronurgy or Graviturgy wizard to get that is via DM permission or the Dragonlance-specfic feat Adept of the White Robes, so I wouldn't expect to get a hold of it even if I was otherwise swimming in pearls.

And that's it, really. Divination is a small school and more than a third of its spells are rituals to boot, so you don't exactly have many options. I guess you could cast something like contact other plane or divination with a slot, but we're getting into weirdly specific scenarios here. Your list plus tongues is where it's at.

[Frogreaver]

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[MoiMagnus]

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[Silpharon]

Why do you see arcane eye, clairvoyance, and scrying as highly situational?

Arcane eye is a very useful scouting tool and clairvoyance lets you peer beyond walls and doors you can't otherwise see past. Scrying is great for finding people and finding out what they're doing.

I felt they were more niche than the others, but to your and jackal's point, maybe they're not niche anymore with expert divination.


You're finding find traps, one of the worst spells in the game and ridiculously inconsistent by default, more consistent than locate creature/object? All the Expert Divination in the world can't make something out of nothing, which is precisely what find traps does.

Anyway, Expert Divination shines precisely with the things you called niche, because said spells aren't niche but they might not always feel "worth" casting, especially with a DM who makes a point of screwing over divination attempts because they find them cheap or something. Practically speaking, chaining scrying, arcane eye and clairvoyance, possibly alongside a locating spell, can tell you most or all of the things you want to know about your next endeavor with what is ultimately a single slot, unless your DM is an outright bastard when it comes to divinations.

In regards to other spells you can consider, an actually niche but very useful when applicable spell is tongues. This is more or less the definition of Expert Divination value, a spell that you'd normally think twice about using even in a favorable situation but that becomes effectively free thanks to the feature and can help a lot when cast. The rest you've already mentioned, unless you're made of money, in which case legend lore might end up handy. But the monetary cost aside, that is indeed a spell which can very easily turn out to be useless. There's also fortune's favor if you're rich, but the only ways for a non-Chronurgy or Graviturgy wizard to get that is via DM permission or the Dragonlance-specfic feat Adept of the White Robes, so I wouldn't expect to get a hold of it even if I was otherwise swimming in pearls.

And that's it, really. Divination is a small school and more than a third of its spells are rituals to boot, so you don't exactly have many options. I guess you could cast something like contact other plane or divination with a slot, but we're getting into weirdly specific scenarios here. Your list plus tongues is where it's at.

Great post, thanks! Good to know find traps is considered poor, I could see that now rereading it. I'll also add Tongues to my short list.

Yeah Fortune's Favor is interesting, but given the cost I'd rather upcast it anyway to get more people covered.

[Chronos]

Don't forget about True Sight, too. Especially when you can figure out that something isn't as it seems, but you're not sure what.

[Chaos Jackal]

Great post, thanks! Good to know find traps is considered poor, I could see that now rereading it. I'll also add Tongues to my short list.

You're welcome. And yeah, find traps as written basically does nothing at all, unfortunately. Most egregiously, it doesn't actually find any traps. It doesn't even have a proximity alert or something. Worried that the room is trapped? Great, your suspicions are confirmed. Good luck, try to be careful. Or, you know, you could skip straight to being careful anyway and save the slot.


Don't forget about True Sight, too. Especially when you can figure out that something isn't as it seems, but you're not sure what.

Right, thanks for bringing that up. Had a mix there, misremembered that the feature worked with at most 5th-level spells, rather than 5th being the maximum level of recovery. Yeah, true seeing is one of those things that you might not need most of the time, but when you do, you really need it. If you get back a slot to throw a wall of force when you end up bringing it out, more power to you.