Fathomless Warlock - spell selection

[Boci]

So, warlock is probably my favorite class, and I enjoy the various patrons they have, Going to give Fathomless a try, specifically kraken, since they're the coolest option for that, IMO.

However I'm struggling with spell selection at level 1. Cantrips are fine, eldritch blast and mage hand, both refluffed as not-so-ethereal tentacles, but for 1 st level spells? I like Thunderwave, but Create and Destroy Water feels like a bit of a luxury option when you only know 2 spells, and the warlock's base lists, doesn't appear particularly kraken-y. Arms of Hadar works, but feels redundant alongside both Thunderwave and Tentacle of the Deep from the patron, Cause Fear fits fluffwise but seems awfully weak until you can upcast it. Concentration, single target, and they get to repeat the save?

This doesn't seem to be a problem other warlocks have. Fiends have hellish rebuke, fey have multiple illusion and enchantment options that all fit, and great old ones have netter reason to take a damaging spell like Arms of Hadar, as well as the enchantment options, but their two patron spells are both pickable (and frankly ditto there for fiend and archfey too). Obviously warlocks don't have to choose all their spells to be patron fluffy, but for this character it makes sense to, at least at the start.

So I guess my options are Armor of Agathys for the cold theme of Fathomless, Cause Fear and just maybe not cast it until level 2 or something, or Hex, because there's nothing about krakens that say they wouldn't do that, even if there's nothing especially hex-y about them. Did I miss any options?

[Bobthewizard]

I would take thunder wave and plan on using almost all of your spell slots on it. It's very good at levels 1 and 2. I think access to thunder wave is the best thing you get from the subclass at level 1. It gives you a good AOE option.

[sethdmichaels]

personally, i picked Armor of Agathys and Thunderwave for my first-level spells, because my Fathomless is, tactically and by personality, all about keeping people away from her and penalizing them for getting too close. i think you'll be trading out spells as you move up - Fear instead of Cause Fear, for instance.

[Emongnome777]

I like Thunderwave and Hex. How is laying down a “curse” not thematic for a Fathomless warlock? I think cold and necrotic are your most thematic damage types so AoA may work as well if it fits with how you want to play your character.

[Boci]

I would take thunder wave and plan on using almost all of your spell slots on it. It's very good at levels 1 and 2. I think access to thunder wave is the best thing you get from the subclass at level 1. It gives you a good AOE option.

So you think I can grab Create and Destroy Water for thematic purposes, since I won't be using any spell other than thunderwave in combat anyway?


personally, i picked Armor of Agathys and Thunderwave for my first-level spells, because my Fathomless is, tactically and by personality, all about keeping people away from her and penalizing them for getting too close. i think you'll be trading out spells as you move up - Fear instead of Cause Fear, for instance.

Yeah, I think I'm leaning AoA as well. I'll be playing with a barbarian, so punishing enemies for going after me is probably a good idea. Gotta make it a "damned either way" situation for them.


I like Thunderwave and Hex. How is laying down a “curse” not thematic for a Fathomless warlock? I think cold and necrotic are your most thematic damage types so AoA may work as well if it fits with how you want to play your character.

I disagree with necrotic, because the patron spells grant spells that deal cold, thunder and lightning damage. None of them deal necrotic, nor do any of the patron powers have anything to do with necrotic.

[Aimeryan]

You could ask your DM if they would consider the Hex damage as one of those types - Necrotic is generally a good damage type, so you wouldn't really be powering it up this way. Especially so for Cold.

Otherwise, well Necrotic really just means flesh-killing... which is just a more direct way of doing so than Cold, Thunder, etc. Frostbite is essentially necrotising, and that comes from being cold. It is not a disease or some such that might feel less thematic.

[verbatim]

So you think I can grab Create and Destroy Water for thematic purposes, since I won't be using any spell other than thunderwave in combat anyway?


Create and Destroy Water is a spell you will definitely want eventually if the campaign is going all the way up to tier 4, because it creates enough water to use in combination with the Fathomless's lvl 14 ability (water not needed if you are using the Kraken HB subclass)


other interesting level 1 options:

Expeditious Retreat allows you to spend your primary action on disengage and then get 60 feet away.
Unseen Servant can do a lot of stuff written RAW, if it sounds interesting I would definitely run it by your DM first and see what stuff they will and won't allow.

[Joe the Rat]

On Necrotic:

I always call back to 3.5's Utterdark cold+necrotic combo. Think of necrotic (when it's not in flesh-withering or water-draining modes) as "soul-cold," something that chills the spirit. Of course, necrotic spells like wither and horrid wilting invoke draining water in the fluff. That's still fairly on brand.

For spells...
Thunderwave is solid - it fits both style as well as the push/punish mode. (You know, I hadn't thought much about it, but Fathomless really are melee teases, aren't they?)
Hex... I recommend waiting until 5th level. Adding 1d6 to one attack on one specific dude per turn isn't a great use, unless you end up making 4+ attacks in a typical combat.
Take create / destroy water. It's thematic, and if you don't have it, you will find yourself in many, many situations where you really could put it to good use. I'm speaking from a Tempest Cleric perspective, but yes, keep it. Worst case, you fill everyone's skins before a short rest.
AoA pays off better at 3rd level. By that point you should be settled into whether you want to get in melee enough that it triggers backlash.

[MrStabby]

On Necrotic:

I always call back to 3.5's Utterdark cold+necrotic combo. Think of necrotic (when it's not in flesh-withering or water-draining modes) as "soul-cold," something that chills the spirit. Of course, necrotic spells like wither and horrid wilting invoke draining water in the fluff. That's still fairly on brand.

For spells...
Thunderwave is solid - it fits both style as well as the push/punish mode. (You know, I hadn't thought much about it, but Fathomless really are melee teases, aren't they?)
Hex... I recommend waiting until 5th level. Adding 1d6 to one attack on one specific dude per turn isn't a great use, unless you end up making 4+ attacks in a typical combat.
Take create / destroy water. It's thematic, and if you don't have it, you will find yourself in many, many situations where you really could put it to good use. I'm speaking from a Tempest Cleric perspective, but yes, keep it. Worst case, you fill everyone's skins before a short rest.
AoA pays off better at 3rd level. By that point you should be settled into whether you want to get in melee enough that it triggers backlash.

I think necrotic is a few things - a kind of chilling effect is implied in chill touch, harm makes it a disease, spirit guardians makes it a spiritual assault, toll the dead makes is a really sad sound, wither and bloom is abstract life and death, vampitic touch is sucking something out of a target, blight/horrid wilting is dessication, negative energy flood/circle of death has necrotic damage as a type of energy, shadow dragons breath shadowy fire, mummies do necrotic damage with something that is a curse and also possibly a disease, for shadows its a weakening, wights and vampires do necrotic damage through hunger/consumption of life/blood respectively... I think necrotic damage has a very broad theme.

[Kane0]

Armor of Agathys would probably be my second pick.

[Boci]

Decided to go with Armor of Agathys, especially since I could refluff it as highly pressurized, chilled water that spurts in the face of anyone who hits me.

Regarding Hex, I understand why people think it can work for Fathomless, I don't disagree. Curses from forgotten depth can certainly work, especially if you fluff the necrotic damage as drawing water from the body, or can swap it for cold, though disadvantage on a single ability to harder to justify with cold IMO. But I felt it diluted the theme. We already have cold, storms lightning and thunder, and tentacles as explicit themes. So whilst adding Hex could work, its cluttering an already established theme. Does it not fit the ocean depths? No, its fine, but so would fire, between undersea volcanos and thermal vents.

So yes while I could see it working, it didn't feel necessary here. I may revisit this issue at level 5 when I'm twin shooting eldrtich bolts.