How to make the illusionist wizard more "social"?

[Wasp]

Hi everyone!

I am thinking about making an illusionist wizard and I would really love to get that lvl 14 subclass feature. But I would also like them to be more of a showman or stage magician and a bit sneaky and involved in illegal stuff, so it would be good to be a bit more social or skill focussed than Wizards normally are.

What would be a good way to accomplish that? Going vhuman and taking the skilled feat? Dip into rogue or bard at first lvl? Any other ideas? Point Buy, feats and multicladsing allowed

(I would also love to get Eldritch Adept for Misty Visions or Metamagic Adept for Subtle Spell and of course high intelligence to have a high spell DC... So I kinda feel i probably have to pick and choose...)

[Mastikator]

Charlatan background. Don't dump charisma. Pick up diplomacy/insight skills from race. The rest is up to roleplay moreso than class features IMO. Disguise self and/or disguise kit can be used to make yourself look fancy/right for the situation without necessarily deceiving NPCs about your character's persona.

Social game is also heavily DM dependent so talk to them about wanting to do social interactions.

[Unoriginal]

Hi everyone!

I am thinking about making an illusionist wizard and I would really love to get that lvl 14 subclass feature. But I would also like them to be more of a showman or stage magician and a bit sneaky and involved in illegal stuff, so it would be good to be a bit more social or skill focussed than Wizards normally are.

What would be a good way to accomplish that? Going vhuman and taking the skilled feat? Dip into rogue or bard at first lvl? Any other ideas? Point Buy, feats and multicladsing allowed

(I would also love to get Eldritch Adept for Misty Visions or Metamagic Adept for Subtle Spell and of course high intelligence to have a high spell DC... So I kinda feel i probably have to pick and choose...)

Aside from the Charlatan background Mastikator already mentioned, there is also the Criminal Background.

[Slipjig]

I think I'd skip Metamagic Adept. I understand the appeal of Subtle Spell, but only having two Sorcery points is pretty limiting. Though I suppose it would add a major layer of deniability if witnesses are saying, "No, we KNOW what his spellcasting looks like, and it wasn't him!"

If you really want to do the 'casting in plain sight' thing consistently, you might want to spec up a Sorc with mostly Illusion spells and see how it strikes you. Being Cha-based also makes it much easier to pull off social activities.

Or if you want to lean in to the stage magician angle, take your first level in Rogue or Bard to pick up Perform, a social skill, and Sleight of Hand (which would allow you to fill out your show with some physical tricks in addition to the actual magic).

Just remember that IRL, the main appeal of magic shows is asking, "How did she DO that?!?" If everybody knows the answer is "Literal Magic", that's much less interesting unless spellcasters are rare. In a typical D&D world, you are going to need a huge dose of showmanship to succeed as an entertainer. Nobody is going to pay money to see somebody cast Dancing Lights, but Dancing Lights could greatly enhance a musical performance. Alter Self by itself won't seem impressive by itseld, but it could be a solid addition to a comedy act, especially if you use it to lampoon an audience member or prominent local.

Maybe take the Entertainer background, and ask your DM to let you sub out Alchemist or Carpenter's tools in place of the musical instrument, and use it to build your own non-magical effects and pyrotecnics. You also might want to consider the Actor feat, both for the performance value and in case you want your illusions to mimic a specific individual.

[Segev]

You need to get to sixth, preferably 11th level, but Malleable Illusions on long-duration illusion effects makes Subtle Spell largely unnecessary. A permanent-duration major image (cast from a sixth level spell slot) will allow you to turn it from something innocuous like a leaf on a plant that is really there or a second ring on your finger to whatever you want for your showy or distracting magic.

It also works very nicely with seeming, letting you change the disguises around at will for the full duration.

I am about to have enormous fun with hallucinatory terrain in an underground cave system where bad guys are invading, changing the pathways by blocking the cross ways off in different ways to keep them from backtracking correctly and looping past the same areas multiple times altering the look of the tunnels so they don't realize they have been through them before, etc.

This thread may also have fun ideas: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?477658-Illusionist-Tricks

But Malleable Illusions is, in my mind, even better than Illusory Reality.

Note, too, that there is no limit to how many times you can use illusory reality on a given illusion!

Finally, more than Metamagic Adept, at levels 4-10 (or earlier, with V. Human), I recommend Eldritch Adept for silent image at will. Still obviously casting, but you can do it any time, and Malleable illusions at levels 6+ will let you precast out of sight and chase it without casting for the next ten minutes.

[Trask]

1. Vhuman Illusionist Wizard
2. Charlatan Background
3. Don't dump Charisma
4. Pick up either Prodigy (pick expertise in one of the Charisma skills or maybe Insight), or Metamagic Adept w/ Subtle Spell
5. Make sure you describe your character as conventionally handsome/pretty

I think getting an Eldritch Invocation for Misty Visions or picking up Actor aren't as valuable and can wait until higher levels. Expertise in a social skill or the ability to cast subtly are just too important for this kind of caster IMO.

Also don't discount the importance of that last bullet

[Corran]

Hi everyone!

I am thinking about making an illusionist wizard and I would really love to get that lvl 14 subclass feature. But I would also like them to be more of a showman or stage magician and a bit sneaky and involved in illegal stuff, so it would be good to be a bit more social or skill focussed than Wizards normally are.

What would be a good way to accomplish that? Going vhuman and taking the skilled feat? Dip into rogue or bard at first lvl? Any other ideas? Point Buy, feats and multicladsing allowed

(I would also love to get Eldritch Adept for Misty Visions or Metamagic Adept for Subtle Spell and of course high intelligence to have a high spell DC... So I kinda feel i probably have to pick and choose...)
Disguise self gets a boost from malleable illusion (ie change your appearance with just one action however many times you want so long the spell is up) and eventually from illusory reality I think (ie it becomes a lot like actual shapechange), so there is a lot of potential in this spell. To make the best of it I would grab actor (my second favourite feat for an illusionist at this time).

I'd make charisma my second highest stat after INT. Pick enough social skills (performance, persuasion and deception I woul definitely pick; replace deception/persuasion with intimidation according to how you envisioned your character of course).

Background something akin to a folk hero variant, although instead of being known for heroics, you might be recognized from time to time for that amazing trick you once performed at some famous festival. This trick was so good that it spread from mouth to mouth, so people from even far away might recognize your stage name if you ever use it. What's the trick? Beats me. Just call it something and never give details about it. After all, a magician never reveals their secrets. So, the elephant trick it is. There are two ways I would ever use this with. Either keep it as a tradeable resource that you may once use for something (eg potentially trade it for the your and the other pcs' lives to an enemy who is curious about it and has you in their claws), or have it traded already (with either something useless but important to the pc for some reason - in my case it was info about an artifact my pc was searching for, in your case it could be to clear a debt you could have owed to some notorious mafia boss or something like that; or for something useful, eg a clone spell cast on you, assuming your DM is that generous). Either way, if you trade it, your memories of it are erased as part of the deal, so you might be getting praised from time to time for something you dont remember how to replicate, which can be interesting to think about when roleplaying your character; also, a potential side goal for your character, ie to remember the trick; or even something to worry about, since you volunteeraly opened the door for the DM to use modify memories on your pc).

[Slipjig]

Wow, people are assuming that surprisingly high-level characters will still be entertaining the rubes at a few coppers a head.

[Zuras]

Wow, people are assuming that surprisingly high-level characters will still be entertaining the rubes at a few coppers a head.

More like for free, but yeah. That’s literally the first magic Gandalf performed in The Lord of the Rings.

[Sorinth]

I would be tempted to go Custom Lineage and grab the Skill Expert feat taking Deception, have normal proficiency in Sleight of Hand, Performance, and Stealth. With the standard array go something like 8 14 12 15 10 13 which gives you an 18 Int and a solid Deception bonus for the Social aspect. Then at level 4 grab Eldritch Adept and you should have most of what you are looking for.

I really like the concept of this character, especially as more of a Warlock who made a pact to become a famous magician. It's even a tempting dip for you instead of grabbing Eldritch Adept because there are several good invocations and having Hex apply to Int checks makes your illusions really difficult to investigate.

[Wasp]

Charlatan background. Don't dump charisma. Pick up diplomacy/insight skills from race.

Aside from the Charlatan background Mastikator already mentioned, there is also the Criminal Background.
I think I may adapt the Charlatan and just change the Forgery Kit to Thieves Tools!


I think I'd skip Metamagic Adept. I understand the appeal of Subtle Spell, but only having two Sorcery points is pretty limiting. Though I suppose it would add a major layer of deniability if witnesses are saying, "No, we KNOW what his spellcasting looks like, and it wasn't him!"
Yes, probably a bit too much. I think I wouldn't get to that before lvl12 and at that point it's probably not doing much...



Maybe take the Entertainer background, and ask your DM to let you sub out Alchemist or Carpenter's tools in place of the musical instrument, and use it to build your own non-magical effects and pyrotecnics. You also might want to consider the Actor feat, both for the performance value and in case you want your illusions to mimic a specific individual.
Alchemist's Tools could fit thematically better than Thieves' Tools, you are right! I like the idea of doing fireworks!


You need to get to sixth, preferably 11th level, but Malleable Illusions on long-duration illusion effects makes Subtle Spell largely unnecessary. A permanent-duration major image (cast from a sixth level spell slot) will allow you to turn it from something innocuous like a leaf on a plant that is really there or a second ring on your finger to whatever you want for your showy or distracting magic.
That sounds very neat! I'll look into it!


Finally, more than Metamagic Adept, at levels 4-10 (or earlier, with V. Human), I recommend Eldritch Adept for silent image at will.
Yes, definitely an early choice!



I think getting an Eldritch Invocation for Misty Visions or picking up Actor aren't as valuable and can wait until higher levels. Expertise in a social skill or the ability to cast subtly are just too important for this kind of caster IMO.
Yeah, I think Skill Expert might be the choice for 1st level!


you might be recognized from time to time for that amazing trick you once performed at some famous festival. This trick was so good that it spread from mouth to mouth, so people from even far away might recognize your stage name [...]. Either way, if you trade it, your memories of it are erased as part of the deal
Very cool idea! Thank you!


More like for free, but yeah. That’s literally the first magic Gandalf performed in The Lord of the Rings.
The more I think about the more I won't to dabble in fireworks!


I would be tempted to go Custom Lineage and grab the Skill Expert feat taking Deception, have normal proficiency in Sleight of Hand, Performance, and Stealth. With the standard array go something like 8 14 12 15 10 13 which gives you an 18 Int and a solid Deception bonus for the Social aspect. Then at level 4 grab Eldritch Adept and you should have most of what you are looking for.
I REALLY like this build! Sounds very good!

1st lvl skill expert, 4th level Eldritch Adept, 8th level +2 INT and after that I can see

Why the 13 for Charisma? To pick up a caster half feat at lvl12?

What would be everyone's choice for the lvl 12 ASI?

[Mastikator]

I'd honestly keep the forgery kit, thief's tools are easy to get and usually someone in the party has it. Forgery kit can open a lot of door that thief's tools can't. Plus, forging invites and then talking your way past guards is a social encounter.

[Sorinth]

I REALLY like this build! Sounds very good!

1st lvl skill expert, 4th level Eldritch Adept, 8th level +2 INT and after that I can see

Why the 13 for Charisma? To pick up a caster half feat at lvl12?

What would be everyone's choice for the lvl 12 ASI?

Gives you the option to multiclass or to round it up to 14 with Shadow Touched. With shadow touched if you grab say Disguise Self then you don't really care that they are cast via Cha since the DC of it and Invisibility are mostly irrelevant. But of course you can put the 13 into Con and plan on grabbing Res:Con which is the more optimal option.

[Segev]

An illusionist with forgery kit proficiency can also justify even more convincing uses of Malleable Illusions + illusory script. I tend to find that spell a bit lame under most circumstances, but when you have Malleable Illusions, it goes from a way to magically disguise a message so only a chosen few can read it to being a way to make a piece of paper or other writing surface contain whatever you want it to contain. Instead of the hidden message being the point, what it looks like to anybody the message allegedly isn't intended for is the point!

Your illusion of a writ of nobility that you just happen to have in your pocket is all the more convincing with forgery proficiency. As is your illusion of a letter of recommendation from the noble you only found out would influence the person you're showing it to just now.

[CTurbo]

I recommend taking a single level of Rogue, probably at level 1, for the extra skills and Expertise in Persuasion and Deception. Being 1 level behind won't be too noticeable.

Charlatan background is perfect. You'd have Thieves Tools, Forgery Kit, and Disguise Kit. Entertainer background could work well if you see him being an actual stage magician.

Standard Human gets you 16 Int, 14 Dex, Con, and Cha. Half Elf would be similar and offers 2 extra skills. Anything else would require dropping Cha to 12 which honestly would be ok especially if you had Expertise.

[Segev]

I recommend taking a single level of Rogue, probably at level 1, for the extra skills and Expertise in Persuasion and Deception. Being 1 level behind won't be too noticeable.

Charlatan background is perfect. You'd have Thieves Tools, Forgery Kit, and Disguise Kit. Entertainer background could work well if you see him being an actual stage magician.

Standard Human gets you 16 Int, 14 Dex, Con, and Cha. Half Elf would be similar and offers 2 extra skills. Anything else would require dropping Cha to 12 which honestly would be ok especially if you had Expertise.

I caution that while it's not a huge hit, you want to be careful with 1-level dips that take away from spell level progression. I am not sure the expertise is that needed, if you can get the skills you want proficiency in from background. Even with expertise, especially at low level, the d20 dominates, so you may find yourself disappointed in it early on, and later on, those odd levels where you're a spell level behind will sting a bit.

[Witty Username]

More like for free, but yeah. That’s literally the first magic Gandalf performed in The Lord of the Rings.

You're never too old and powerful to enjoy some good fireworks

[RogueJK]

Assuming standard point buy, I'd do...

VHuman Illusionist Wizard
STR 8
DEX 14
CON 13
INT 15+1
WIS 9
CHA 13+1
Skills (5 total, 1 race, 2 background, 2 class): Deception, Persuasion, Sleight of Hand, Arcana, and whatever you want for the 5th
Tool Proficiency (from background): Forgery Kit
ASIs: Eldritch Adept: Misty Visions at 1, Resilient CON (14 CON) or 18 INT at 4 and the other at 8, 20 INT at 12


At-will casting of both Minor Illusion plus Silent Image via Misty Visions from the very start is what lets you really lean into truly being an Illusionist from the beginning, without worrying about spell slots for your basic illusions. And then once you hit Wizard 6, you combine those two with Malleable Illusions to be able to make moving illusions of up to 15' square - complete with sounds - anytime you want for free, with all the shenanigans that entails. And you have the CHA and skill proficiencies to be a passable huckster even without Illusions, all without sacrificing your Wizardly capabilities.


Or you don't mind multiclassing and delaying your Wizard levels a bit, you could also dip 2 levels of Hexblade to gain armor/shield proficiency and the Misty Visions and Mask of Many Faces invocations. This not only saves you a feat, but also gets you a third at-will Illusion spell, gives you a nice bump to your AC, and grants a couple short rest recharging 1st level slots for spells like Shield/Silvery Barbs, plus you get Hexblade's Curse which can be combined with Magic Missile to be a quasi-Nuclear Wizard. In that case, you could go with something like Skill Expert or Prodigy as your VHuman feat for Deception Expertise, or go with a totally different race without a Level 1 feat. That might look something like:

Half Elf Hexblade Warlock 2/Illusionist Wizard X
STR 8
DEX 14
CON 13
INT 15+2
WIS 9+1
CHA 13+1
Skills (6 total, 2 race, 2 background, 2 class): Deception, Persuasion, Sleight of Hand, Arcana, and whatever you want for the 5th and 6th
Tool Proficiency (from background): Forgery Kit
ASIs: Telekinetic/Skill Expert (18 INT) or Resilient CON (14 CON) at 4 and the other at 8, 20 INT at 12

[Psyren]

+1 Skill Expert. Expertise in Deception would allow you to be great at fooling people even with average charisma - and for the occasional instance where your DM lets you make an Intelligence (Deception) check, you would be unstoppable.

[Wasp]

I recommend taking a single level of Rogue, probably at level 1, for the extra skills and Expertise in Persuasion and Deception. Being 1 level behind won't be too noticeable.

Charlatan background is perfect. You'd have Thieves Tools, Forgery Kit, and Disguise Kit. Entertainer background could work well if you see him being an actual stage magician.

Standard Human gets you 16 Int, 14 Dex, Con, and Cha. Half Elf would be similar and offers 2 extra skills. Anything else would require dropping Cha to 12 which honestly would be ok especially if you had Expertise.
Hmmm... In generally I like the Rogue dip because I love Arcane Tricksters, but I feel in this case I may be giving up too much (essentially I am hoping to get to lvl 14 but I am not sure that will be possible).

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So would VHuman be better than Custom Lineage for a pure Illusionist build? I feel being small could be quite advantageous for an Illusionist to hide behind illusions etc.

[Zuras]

Hmmm... In generally I like the Rogue dip because I love Arcane Tricksters, but I feel in this case I may be giving up too much (essentially I am hoping to get to lvl 14 but I am not sure that will be possible).

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So would VHuman be better than Custom Lineage for a pure Illusionist build? I feel being small could be quite advantageous for an Illusionist to hide behind illusions etc.

Are you trying to be a stealthy illusionist, or a tricky illusionist? Practically speaking your size won’t matter much without a solid stealth score. Additionally, if you’re trying to impersonate medium size creatures being small will be a disadvantage rather than a help.

In my experience your key tools are a solid deception modifier (via expertise or good charisma, probably Skill Expert for you), Disguise Self and Detect Thoughts. Lying and impersonation is so much easier when you can read someone’s surface thoughts.

Additionally, if you’re going to lean into deceptive illusions, the Telekinetic feat may help. You can create an invisible Mage Hand with it (no verbal or somatic components required), and make your illusions appear to interact with physical objects.

[CTurbo]

Hmmm... In generally I like the Rogue dip because I love Arcane Tricksters, but I feel in this case I may be giving up too much (essentially I am hoping to get to lvl 14 but I am not sure that will be possible).

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So would VHuman be better than Custom Lineage for a pure Illusionist build? I feel being small could be quite advantageous for an Illusionist to hide behind illusions etc.

Arcane Trickster would require 3 levels of Rogue and of course that's way too many levels. I think just a single Rogue level would be fine and offer a lot, but is not completely necessary.

You could go straight Wizard.

Half Elf Charlatan Wizard with Point Buy would get you 16 Int, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 14 Cha, 10 Wis, and 8 Str and you'd have 6 skills which could include Deception, Persuasion, Performance, and Sleight of Hand.

Custom Lineage Charlatan Wizard with Point Buy and the Skilled Expert feat gets you the same stats as above except for 8 Wis and you'd have 4 skills with darkvision or 5 skills without, but you could have expertise in Deception. You would not have any other social skill though unless you go without Darkvision.

I think the Mask of Many Faces invocation would be what I would want the most. Being able to cast Disguise self at will is very powerful especially combined with the Charlatan background.


Anyway, starting with a single level of Rogue gets you 2 additional skills Expertise in any 2 skills, Thieves Tool, and honestly this may be the specific build to make sue of Thieves Cant. It's up to you to know if 1 level Rogue dip is worth it.