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TempusCCK
2007-12-02, 06:38 PM
Poisons in 3.5 suck.

They are terrible terrible useless things. The standard set of poisons you can make by RAW and the poisons given in any of the books are simply so useless, that a majority of the ones you might consider using have such a low Save DC that a 1st level character still has a roughly 50% shot of saving.

Why would anyone even bother to write those things down in a table, they're so useless beyond the 3rd or 4th level that it's just sickening.

Not to mention crazy costs to make for the decent ones, and a chance to poison yourself if you're not proficient.

Poisonmaking should be left completely to Houseruling and DM Fiat. Poisons in 3.5 SUCK!

-End Rant-

Signmaker
2007-12-02, 08:08 PM
Exalted Feat: Touch of Golden Ice
Add to Monk, let monk have fun with evil creatures.

Poisons are useful when used en-masse. That way, one of them is bound to hit, if only due to natural 1 failure. Unfortunately, as all the decent ones are quite expensive, such use is limited.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-02, 08:17 PM
Touch of golden ice sucks too, because it doesn't scale. That's the problem with poisons.


If you wanna play with poisons, use the psionic Prevenom Weapon and Truevenom Weapon, or it's touch equivalents. THOSE are teh good stuff, because they scale up.

MalachorWraith
2007-12-02, 08:21 PM
Agreed. I did a little PvP thing a couple of weeks ago with a DM and tricked an opponent into drinking a potion that had "regeneration" written on it in common. It was Dark Reaver Powder mildly diluted in water and he chugged it and made the fortitude save rolling a 7. There ought to be some better applications of poison in the game.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-02, 08:22 PM
As I said above, psionic or magical poisons are pretty much the only chance of it working, because you need a DC that scales up.

TempusCCK
2007-12-02, 08:29 PM
Meh, you're right, they should scale, so perhaps something like, a poison, no matter what kind that is being made, has a save DC equal to somethign like the caster level check. 11+Poisonmaking Ranks.

Or maybe a DC =3/4 result of the Craft check.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-02, 08:32 PM
Nah, that'd make it only mildly weaker than a diplocheese build. I prefer the possibility of expending an X level spell slot to create a magical poison with a DC of (10 + 1/2 caster level + Key stat bonus).

PnP Fan
2007-12-02, 08:46 PM
Not sure about the details of crafting, but the BoVD has some pretty nasty poisons (saves in the neighborhood of DC 35-55).

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-02, 08:48 PM
Meh. If we speak BoVD, I bring a H. I. V. E. who can get some kind of poison with higher level foh shua.

Jack_Simth
2007-12-02, 09:00 PM
Well, you can always try using actual potions - a caster level 10 potion of Fireball is always amusing.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-02, 09:04 PM
But we're speaking about posions, not potions, aren't we?


Though, potion of fireball...hmm, I've GOT to tryy that against the next BBEG that doesn't have fire immunity,

TempusCCK
2007-12-02, 09:08 PM
Nah, that'd make it only mildly weaker than a diplocheese build. I prefer the possibility of expending an X level spell slot to create a magical poison with a DC of (10 + 1/2 caster level + Key stat bonus).

Yeah, but what about non-casters or crappy casters like the ninja. The Ninja as written (haha, the NAW) is practically throwing away levels because poisonmaking sucks so much.

How about a system like this, when making a poison, to find the DC, you add 5 + 1/2 of the poisonmaking check.

So say a 5th level character makes a poison and rolls a 5 on his check, with max ranks in poisonmaking and +1 INT bonus, you have 8+5+1=14, one half of 14 is 7, so the save DC is 12, for a crappy potion.

A character of equal level with a good fort save only has to roll a 8 ( with no Con mod) to make the save, that's a decent chance for a crappy poison. Likewise, a character with a bad Fort save is going to have to roll an 11 (again with no CON mod) to save

The same 5th level character rolls a 16 on his check, so he adds 8 and 1 for a total of 25, half of which is 13, (rounded up) So the save DC is 17. Now a character of equal level with a good fort save has to roll a 13 to save, which is still under what the craftmaker had to roll to make the poison good, and a character with a bad save has to roll a 15, which is almost equal to what the crafter had to roll to make his poison any good.


Mmm, this makes a little sense for being pulled out of my a**. I'm going to crunch the numbers a little more and see if this is a viable fix. Opinons and criticism welcome.

Jack_Simth
2007-12-02, 09:17 PM
But we're speaking about posions, not potions, aren't we?
What's the practical difference between an ingested poison and a potion of a hostile spell?

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-02, 09:21 PM
The immunity to poisons, the requirement for a DC against poison, the inherent stat damage...do I need to continue?

Also, that system sounds nice. Hmm...maybe we could just suggest that classes that deal with poisons (Ninja's, assasin's, etc.) Get some way of applying my spell system without needing spells?

mostlyharmful
2007-12-02, 09:22 PM
What's the practical difference between an ingested poison and a potion of a hostile spell?

One scales, and thus is useful. The other doesn't, and thus is utterly pointless as well as being overpriced and subject to an abstract "incompetance" 5% roll.:smallyuk:

dwagiebard
2007-12-02, 09:23 PM
What's the practical difference between an ingested poison and a potion of a hostile spell?

The fact that potions are based off of spellcasting, and poisons are just a flat (pathetic) DC.

Jack_Simth
2007-12-02, 09:39 PM
Azerian Kelimon, mostlyharmful, and dwagiebard:
So, basically, you're all saying that the only practical difference between an ingested poison and a potion of a hostile spell is that the potion works better?

So why not switch over in what you use?

For instance, a potion of Extended Acid Arrow at caster level 18 would cost 2,700 gp (3(spell level)*18(caster level)*50(Potion base)) and would deal 28d4 acid damage (2d4 per round for (1+18/3)*2=14 rounds - with no save; average 70 damage). As a potion contains exactly one ounce of liquid, it would work well in someone's drink.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-02, 09:47 PM
More or less. Poisons don't have to pass SR, but unless you find a way to override immunity to 'em, and a way to scale the DC's, they suck so bad that it's not funny.

TempusCCK
2007-12-02, 09:47 PM
Yeah, but potions of hostile spells are caster-only, this is something for a non-caster.

An example is, you want to knock out a the High Priest of [Evil God], he has a fantastic Will save, so your magic users spells are less likely to work than a good old fort-save poison, but poisons suck, so that limits your options. Also, a potion of a damage dealing spell is going to be hard to use on-injury and on-contact. And would have to be forced down someones mouth of snuck into their drink/food, which also limits possibilities.

It's freedom... the freedom to hurt people how I want, when I want.

dwagiebard
2007-12-02, 10:42 PM
he has a fantastic Will save, so your magic users spells are less likely to work than a good old fort-save poison.

IIRC, some spells force fort save.

EDIT: The perfect spell: Melf's acid arrow.

---
Conjuration (Creation) [Acid]
Level: Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Effect: One arrow of acid
Duration: 1 round + 1 round per three levels
Saving Throw: None (!!!)
Spell Resistance: No

A magical arrow of acid springs from your hand and speeds to its target. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target. The arrow deals 2d4 points of acid damage with no splash damage. For every three caster levels (to a maximum of 18th), the acid, unless somehow neutralized, lasts for another round, dealing another 2d4 points of damage in that round.
---

The Damage isn't great, but if you want a potion that's sure to work, this is the one for you.

dyslexicfaser
2007-12-02, 11:02 PM
I have to ask - how does a potion of fireball or melf's acid arrow make any sense at all?

You drink it, and what, an acid arrow forms in your gut?

Jack Zander
2007-12-02, 11:09 PM
You should suffer ill effects from poison even if you succeed your save. Honestly, who drinks a vial of poison (or gets bit by a venomous snake) and walks away like nothing happened?

Also, poisons should slowly drain abilities each minute/hour depending on the poison until the character makes two saves in a row (like quicker versions of diseases).

Jacob Orlove
2007-12-02, 11:12 PM
Brew Potion [Item Creation]
Prerequisite: Caster level 3rd.
Benefit: You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures.
(Emphasis mine).

Spells like Fireball and Melf's Acid Arrow have a line for effect, not target. That means you can't make potions of them.

What you want is a Wondrous Item. Specifically, an Elixir. You'd need to work it out with your DM, but Elixir of Love should provide a reasonable model to follow. Just change the spell from Charm Person to, oh, say, Poison

Jack Zander
2007-12-02, 11:13 PM
I have to ask - how does a potion of fireball or melf's acid arrow make any sense at all?

You drink it, and what, an acid arrow forms in your gut?

You cant make a potion of fireball becuase fireball doesn't target one or more creatures.

Milf's Acid Arrow works though. I guess it would work something like that. I dunno, maybe acid sprays into the back of their throat while the drink it.

EDIT: What he said ^

Turcano
2007-12-02, 11:24 PM
(Emphasis mine).

Spells like Fireball and Melf's Acid Arrow have a line for effect, not target. That means you can't make potions of them.

What you want is a Wondrous Item. Specifically, an Elixir. You'd need to work it out with your DM, but Elixir of Love should provide a reasonable model to follow. Just change the spell from Charm Person to, oh, say, Poison

Or shivering touch.

Sstoopidtallkid
2007-12-02, 11:26 PM
Potion of maximized empowered magic missile, cast with 5 missiles. 25+5d2. Do you know how awesome that would be?

TempusCCK
2007-12-02, 11:35 PM
dwagiebard Quote:
Originally Posted by TempusCCK
he has a fantastic Will save, so your magic users spells are less likely to work than a good old fort-save poison.

IIRC, some spells force fort save.

EDIT: The perfect spell: Melf's acid arrow.

---
Conjuration (Creation) [Acid]
Level: Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Effect: One arrow of acid
Duration: 1 round + 1 round per three levels
Saving Throw: None (!!!)
Spell Resistance: No

A magical arrow of acid springs from your hand and speeds to its target. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target. The arrow deals 2d4 points of acid damage with no splash damage. For every three caster levels (to a maximum of 18th), the acid, unless somehow neutralized, lasts for another round, dealing another 2d4 points of damage in that round.
---

The Damage isn't great, but if you want a potion that's sure to work, this is the one for you.



You missed the point. I don't want to kill him, I want to knock him out. Most things that are magical and allow me to take control of someone is going to be based on Will. If you want to capture someone with a high will save, rather than just damage them, it's much better to use a contact or injury poison, rather than sneaking a potion into their drink.

Sure, it would be easier if you just wanted to kill them, then you could just play a spellcaster and do it more efficiently. I want poisons (contact, ingested, injury what have you) to be more effective by not having sucky DC's.

The advantage of a poison that knocks someone out over a Potion of Sleep snuck into their drink is 1)Will Save against Sleep vrs. Fort Save. This is good for using it against low-fort enemies like casters, and 2) Rather than sneaking it into their drink, I can coat it on the Rogues' crossbow and have them shoot the guy, creating an injury transfered effect. This can mean the difference between a successful attack and a botched mission.

deadseashoals
2007-12-02, 11:42 PM
How about a potion of poison? :smallbiggrin:

Prometheus
2007-12-02, 11:43 PM
I think the biggest problem with poisons in D&D is not that they are underpowered, but they are balanced in the wrong way. Real-world poisons are much more deadly, but they are also able to be detected with mundane means. In D&D, they are effectively invisible, with the exception of Detect Poison.

There should be a skill check (Heal? Appraise? Sense Motive? Search? Craft (poision)? Knowledge (Dungeoneering or Nature)? ) and poisons should have much higher DCs.

You guys said it right though, the real use of poisons is many doses, so that only the rich or those with special access can use them effectively.

TempusCCK
2007-12-02, 11:48 PM
Yeah, but what about non-casters or crappy casters like the ninja. The Ninja as written (haha, the NAW) is practically throwing away levels because poisonmaking sucks so much.

How about a system like this, when making a poison, to find the DC, you add 5 + 1/2 of the poisonmaking check.

So say a 5th level character makes a poison and rolls a 5 on his check, with max ranks in poisonmaking and +1 INT bonus, you have 8+5+1=14, one half of 14 is 7, so the save DC is 12, for a crappy potion.

A character of equal level with a good fort save only has to roll a 8 ( with no Con mod) to make the save, that's a decent chance for a crappy poison. Likewise, a character with a bad Fort save is going to have to roll an 11 (again with no CON mod) to save

The same 5th level character rolls a 16 on his check, so he adds 8 and 1 for a total of 25, half of which is 13, (rounded up) So the save DC is 17. Now a character of equal level with a good fort save has to roll a 13 to save, which is still under what the craftmaker had to roll to make the poison good, and a character with a bad save has to roll a 15, which is almost equal to what the crafter had to roll to make his poison any good.


Mmm, this makes a little sense for being pulled out of my a**. I'm going to crunch the numbers a little more and see if this is a viable fix. Opinons and criticism welcome.

This is my fix Prometheus, and I think it's viable for creating a good balance between poisons and the person who you're using the poison on. Level and the INT or CON scores of the maker/target are going to effect odds, obvioiusly, but that's the way it should be.

This way you get a scaled DC on the different poisons you create.

Ganurath
2007-12-02, 11:50 PM
Hexblades like sharing poisons with the victims of their curses, as well as evil clerics with (dread) wraith minions(s.) Poisons are meant to add insult to injury, or: Save or Suck/Lose/Die.

For nonlethal poison use... it's covered between the sections on what wizards do when caught off guard and when warlocks run out of invocations for the day.

Nebo_
2007-12-02, 11:58 PM
I think the biggest problem with poisons in D&D is not that they are underpowered, but they are balanced in the wrong way.

Wow, that makes no sense at all. They are underpowered because they are mechanically weak. I'd be interested to hear how you think they are balanced 'in the wrong way'. Not being detectable doesn't count because even if you don't detect it, they are still useless. You might as well be drinking water most of the time.

JaxGaret
2007-12-03, 12:04 AM
It makes no sense for there to be a maximum dose of poison (i.e. one at a time) to be able to inflict on others.

Perhaps implement a system for applying multiple doses of poison, with an increase to the DC for each applied dose?

Prometheus
2007-12-03, 12:26 AM
Wow, that makes no sense at all. They are underpowered because they are mechanically weak. I'd be interested to hear how you think they are balanced 'in the wrong way'. Not being detectable doesn't count because even if you don't detect it, they are still useless. You might as well be drinking water most of the time.
"Not being detectable" is what I was suggesting would be balancing out its ineffectiveness by being unrealistic in the other direction. Obviously though, to make it effective you would have to use a lot of poison (and again, the more poison you use, the more unrealistic the nondetection is). Perhaps the two don't perfectly balance each other out though you may be right about that, it was mostly a lead in to my idea

EDIT: It occurs to me I should mention my variant rule for combining poisons. Whenever it is favorable to do so, and you double the dosage, you can treat it as if it were a single poison with a DC four higher so long as your poison is more likely to fail than it is to succeed (determined by the fortitude bonus it is pitted against).

This is based on the fact that the probability of one of two events occurring is 2P-P*P. The way this works is that if you assume that when using multiple poisons that if either them work only one will, than it is a good deal to simply increase the DC in this manner until you reach about 30% probability (from then on, there is about a 10% chance of both occurring anyway). The cap is so that a player cannot simply double until the save is unavoidable. If they would only fail on a 1, than you've increase your odds from 5% to 25% using this variant rather than 5% to about 10%. If they would only fail on a 3 or lower, you've increase from 15% to 35% rather than to 28%. If they would fail at 10 or lower though, increasing from 50% to 70% isn't nearly as appealing as 50% to 75% with a 25% of both occurring. If they probability is less than one, this may put you on the map.

Guy_Whozevl
2007-12-03, 12:43 AM
After realizing that even a freaking Wizard can make Fortitude saves vs. most poisons at a reasonably low level, I now feel like intentionally getting bitten by a rattlesnake. Then when I nearly die, but am saved by dedicated medics, I will proceed to sue WotC for giving me false pretensions about realism. After I get rich, I will proceed to buy the company and hire competant game designers/playtesters to fix the poison mechanic. There, problem solved.

Xuincherguixe
2007-12-03, 12:54 AM
Mental note: If I ever make a roleplaying game and include poisons (not terribly unlikely), make sure to make them useful.

Jack Zander
2007-12-03, 02:02 AM
After realizing that even a freaking Wizard can make Fortitude saves vs. most poisons at a reasonably low level, I now feel like intentionally getting bitten by a rattlesnake. Then when I nearly die, but am saved by dedicated medics, I will proceed to sue WotC for giving me false pretensions about realism. After I get rich, I will proceed to buy the company and hire competant game designers/playtesters to fix the poison mechanic. There, problem solved.

Just make sure it hasn't bitten anything else within the last 24 hours or the DnD mechanics will seem reasonable.

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-03, 02:12 AM
I have no problem with poisons as written. The only change I would make is to replace Poison Use with "if you have 5 or more ranks in Craft: Poison, you are not at risk of poisoning yourself when applying poison to a weapon".

Poison + Shuriken + Flurry is a great way to make sure they fail a save.
Craft: Poisonmaking significantly reduces the cost

Sure, it doesn't model real world poison very well, but D&D doesn't model real world anything very well. Realism isn't a goal of D&D, versimilitude is.

Ganurath
2007-12-03, 02:21 AM
It makes no sense for there to be a maximum dose of poison (i.e. one at a time) to be able to inflict on others.

Perhaps implement a system for applying multiple doses of poison, with an increase to the DC for each applied dose?You mean alcohol?

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-03, 02:24 AM
It makes no sense for there to be a maximum dose of poison (i.e. one at a time) to be able to inflict on others.

Perhaps implement a system for applying multiple doses of poison, with an increase to the DC for each applied dose?

Where does it say that you are limited to putting one dose of black lotus extract into someone's food at a time?

Rigon
2007-12-03, 02:32 AM
actually i think that poisons suck to protect PCs.
it's bad if a first level party gets slaughtered by a rogue with a poisoned arrows.

maybe your game needs home-brew poisons (which sounds kinda funny).

EDIT: my english is bad... i'm sorry.

Lady Tialait
2007-12-03, 03:16 AM
the only problem i have had with posions was...sadly player abuse. They are ment to be used by NPCs...but my players love the mechanic.
Alright. here is the combo.
Con. Dealing posion of any type + arrows dipped in them + Human MachineGun Archer Build = take damage from the arrows hitting you plus make 12 Fort saves or take con damage each...if you fail an eairly one your screwed. but keep going. each round he does it again. After the battle (he was retreating..) make 60 saves or take more con damage...

Low saves on posion is the only reason I even tolorate this. but nat 1 fails. so the odds are on them.

Con.damageing injury poison is very much worth the cash..sense you really can't use it properly till you have the cash to spare.

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-03, 03:20 AM
yep, ammo is what you put poison on. Master Thrower Shuriken throwers in 3.0 were the worst poison abusers ever. IIRC you could get something like 42 attacks/rnd.

Talic
2007-12-03, 03:20 AM
the only problem i have had with posions was...sadly player abuse. They are ment to be used by NPCs...but my players love the mechanic.
Alright. here is the combo.
Con. Dealing posion of any type + arrows dipped in them + Human MachineGun Archer Build = take damage from the arrows hitting you plus make 12 Fort saves or take con damage each...if you fail an eairly one your screwed. but keep going. each round he does it again. After the battle (he was retreating..) make 60 saves or take more con damage...

Low saves on posion is the only reason I even tolorate this. but nat 1 fails. so the odds are on them.

Con.damageing injury poison is very much worth the cash..sense you really can't use it properly till you have the cash to spare.

At low levels, Nat 1 for the Archer also means self poisoning. In the long run, the archer will get it too.

That said, I don't feel there's too many probs with poisons. Yes, they're not on parity with some things, but they can be used in conjunction with other things to give a bit of extra suck to an otherwise stabby day.

Poison isn't a build. It's a chewy center... An extra bonus that makes the attack a bit better.

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-03, 03:22 AM
Yes, but the archer has to roll two 1s in a row, if he didn't dip Assassin for poison use.

Poison Use as a PrC only thing is the only part of the poison rules that aggravate me enough to houserule.

Lady Tialait
2007-12-03, 03:26 AM
The Archer isn't gunna be level one useing that much poison, couldn't afford it. for poison to be good you have to use ALOT of it..to afford ALOT of it you need to have ALOT of money to get ALOT of money you need to kill ALOT of stuff by doing that you level. when you are higher level you can get out ALOT of attacks..so you can really mess peaple up. Poison as far as i can see is not good or worth anything at low levels when the save would be a danger by itself. that is fine. I get the ewies at anything that can kill a epic barbar and allows for a fort save. (and yes, that happened.)

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-03, 03:28 AM
Of course, even then, the heavy poison treatment is only used against major opponents. Its just not cost effective to do that every battle.

That one feat from PHB II sinks that strategy pretty hard though.

Lady Tialait
2007-12-03, 03:31 AM
True, my non-undead BBEGs are usally soaked in poison after a combat with the PCs...but then again when the PCs decided to enter the Underdark and attack the Drow, same thing to PCs..100 Drow archers...with drow poisons.needless to say the PCs were captured.

Talic
2007-12-03, 03:34 AM
The Archer isn't gunna be level one useing that much poison, couldn't afford it. for poison to be good you have to use ALOT of it..to afford ALOT of it you need to have ALOT of money to get ALOT of money you need to kill ALOT of stuff by doing that you level. when you are higher level you can get out ALOT of attacks..so you can really mess peaple up. Poison as far as i can see is not good or worth anything at low levels when the save would be a danger by itself. that is fine. I get the ewies at anything that can kill a epic barbar and allows for a fort save. (and yes, that happened.)

There is a feat that states that you don't automatically fail a fort save on a roll of 1, you know. It makes epic barbs much more resistant to that kinda thing. I think it also throws a +2 to will saves, as well. I've seen it used in defensive paladin/tank builds, to get Stupid High saves, and nat 1 protection. Think it used 2 levels of deepwarden to get con modifier to AC, and a really high con and cha.


Yes, but the archer has to roll two 1s in a row, if he didn't dip Assassin for poison use.

Poison Use as a PrC only thing is the only part of the poison rules that aggravate me enough to houserule.

It's a 5% chance. I mean, what does it really mean? It means that, if you use poisons, keep antitoxin on hand, or a potion of lesser restoration. Probably a smart move.

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-03, 03:39 AM
It is more that it irritates my sense of completeness. If I have a character that uses poison, that 5% makes me feel that the character is not good at what he does. An adventurer should be the best at what he does. Which is why monks suck so badly. That's what they do. :smallsmile:

Talic
2007-12-03, 03:41 AM
It is more that it irritates my sense of completeness. If I have a character that uses poison, that 5% makes me feel that the character is not good at what he does. An adventurer should be the best at what he does. Which is why monks suck so badly. That's what they do. :smallsmile:

Do epic fighters suck at what they do because they miss a CR 1/2 kobold 5% of the time?

Lady Tialait
2007-12-03, 03:45 AM
There is a feat that states that you don't automatically fail a fort save on a roll of 1, you know. It makes epic barbs much more resistant to that kinda thing. I think it also throws a +2 to will saves, as well. I've seen it used in defensive paladin/tank builds, to get Stupid High saves, and nat 1 protection. Think it used 2 levels of deepwarden to get con modifier to AC, and a really high con and cha.

you do realize that you only get what? 11 feats before epics...if your a barbar..sooo you gotta take all your rageing feats some focus in this or that AND another feat to make sure you arn't gunna die from a 1?

as for Tank builds, Stupid high saves means that the Wizard's spells could be rendered useless. a 10 level Rouge that could make himself a nice high Reflex save and no 1 protection add some help on his will and fort..giveing him some stupid saves...and tada..no spellcaster can touch him. ...pure casters are after all the most powerful charitors in the Game..at higher levels anyway (this could be done with mooks too..and to have a mook nuteur the wizard would be a shame wouldn't it?)

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-03, 03:45 AM
Do epic fighters suck at what they do because they miss a CR 1/2 kobold 5% of the time?

Yes.


as for Tank builds, Stupid high saves means that the Wizard's spells could be rendered useless. a 10 level Rouge that could make himself a nice high Reflex save and no 1 protection add some help on his will and fort..giveing him some stupid saves...and tada..no spellcaster can touch him. ...pure casters are after all the most powerful charitors in the Game..at higher levels anyway (this could be done with mooks too..and to have a mook nuteur the wizard would be a shame wouldn't it?)

That only works if the wizard is dumb. Given that they are intelligence based casters, that doesn't strike me as likely. Forcecage + Acid Fog + Dim. Lock is but one way to kill any tank w/o allowing any saves at all.

Talic
2007-12-03, 03:49 AM
Yes.

stupid min character limit

Fair enough.

You sir, win a cookie*.

*Aforementioned cookie only available between 1:15 am and 1:27 am, EST, on the third wednesday of each month, and may only be redeemed in Regina, Canada.

Lady Tialait
2007-12-03, 03:50 AM
That only works if the wizard is dumb. Given that they are intelligence based casters, that doesn't strike me as likely. Forcecage + Acid Fog + Dim. Lock is but one way to kill any tank w/o allowing any saves at all.

fine fine Sorc then....:tongue:

Mewtarthio
2007-12-03, 04:32 AM
the only problem i have had with posions was...sadly player abuse. They are ment to be used by NPCs...but my players love the mechanic.
Alright. here is the combo.
Con. Dealing posion of any type + arrows dipped in them + Human MachineGun Archer Build = take damage from the arrows hitting you plus make 12 Fort saves or take con damage each...if you fail an eairly one your screwed. but keep going. each round he does it again. After the battle (he was retreating..) make 60 saves or take more con damage...

Low saves on posion is the only reason I even tolorate this. but nat 1 fails. so the odds are on them.

Con.damageing injury poison is very much worth the cash..sense you really can't use it properly till you have the cash to spare.

Where is he getting the money to throw around twelve doses of poison per round?

Aquillion
2007-12-03, 05:13 AM
Actually, if I was just going to throw a ton of poison at someone and hope they get a natural 1, I'd use drow poison. Con damage poison is expensive; drow poison is just 75 gp a dose, and causes immediate unconsciousness for 1d3 hours on a failed save (2d4 hours on a failed secondary save). In combat, going unconscious for hours on end is nearly guaranteed death. And this is the cheapest poison on the entire list. Sure, it's a pathetic DC 13 save, but who cares? All the others are horrible, too.

Drow poison basically lets you turn any ranged weapon into a "vorpal" 5% one-hit-KO weapon at the cost of 75 gp an arrow... it isn't that bad, considering how many shots it'd take you to equal the usual cost of a vorpal weapon. Plus, there are a few creatures out there with less than +11 to their fort saves (and drow poison is cheap enough that players can afford to use it in important fights even at low levels.) Even if a creature's fort bonus is +10, that still raises the chance of instant unconsciousness to 10% a hit... that's considerably better than a vorpal weapon, and look at how many BBEG encounters those ruin.

Plus, since it doesn't do any stat damage, players can apply it during downtime without worrying about hurting themselves on the 5% rule... they can even poison their arrows before bed. Worst case, they screw up and go unconscious for up to eight hours, which they were planning on doing anyway. Or they can just get a poison-immune character like the party druid, a pet zombie, or an unseen servant to do it, of course.

Still won't work on poison-immune opponents, but you can't have everything.

TempusCCK
2007-12-03, 09:23 AM
Yeah, but not everyone who is going to be using poisons are going to be able to throw them around twelve doses at a time. That's not always socially feasible, especially when the town guard is bound to come knocking on the door if you prolong combat for too long.

I should be able to create a High-Save DC Whatever Poison to do whatever types of damage/effects that can reasonably be simulated by putting magical/organic materials together and shooting somebody with a crossbow bolt coated in the stuff.

its_all_ogre
2007-12-03, 12:19 PM
higher dc poisons. scry for higher than normal HD Wyverns. the poison save dc is 1/2 HD + con bonus.
so find one with 16HD also means it is Gargantuan for a bonus +4 Con.
save dc is now somewhere around DC25(no books to hand).
rinse and repeat, how much venom you gain per wyvern is upto your dm.

craft poison making to make wyvern venom is really silly too!

SilverClawShift
2007-12-03, 05:20 PM
You should suffer ill effects from poison even if you succeed your save. Honestly, who drinks a vial of poison (or gets bit by a venomous snake) and walks away like nothing happened?

That's actually not a bad idea. A two or three-tiered poison setup. Combined with the fact that poisons don't really necessarily work on 60 second intervals (which always struck me as a confusing rule, take damage, wait 60 seconds, take damage :smallconfused: ). You could design poisons with two or three effects, and maybe a secondary lasting effect.

Off the top of my head here:

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Roll a fort save, Blackbile. Injury poison. 25 gold per dose. Hitting a creature with two doses within 3 rounds forces another fortitude save, with the DCs all raised by 2.

Save DC 20: To avoid being sickened for 2 rounds (-2 penalty on all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks).
So you get a 20 on your Fort save and nothing happens. You get a 15-19 and you become flushed and feel like crap for 12 seconds before you mostly shake it off

Save DC 15: To avoid being sickened for 5 rounds. They must also make another Fortitude save (DC 15) each round or become staggered for that round as well (a staggered character may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can she take full-round actions)).
Get a 10-14, and you feel like crap for half a minute instead. You also need to roll for the same save DC each round, or you feel so sick you can't even fight except to protect yourself.

Save DC 10: To avoid the above affect. They must also make another Fortitude save each round for five rounds, against the Save DC of 10. Each failure results in 1d3 points of CON "poisoning". Blackbile Poison will never deal more than 15 points of Consitution poisoning, even if multiple doses are administered.
Get a 9 or lower, and not only do you feel like crap, but you're actually honest to god poisoned, and might even pass out cold from it.

What is Constitution Poisoning: "Poisoning" Constitution does not result in the loss of hitpoints, but does lower Fortitude saves, CON checks and skill checks. Poisoning is healed at the same rate ability damage is (1 point recovered per day, or by healing or Neutralizing the poison), even if ability damage is also taken from another source.
A character who takes an amount of CON poisoning equal to their actual CON score falls unconcious until the poison is neutralized, or they heal 1 point of their CON poisoning (1 day, under most circumstances).

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Just a thought.

And a disclaimer, since that IS off the top of my head, I'm sure it needs tweaking and might be too powerful or not work as intended in actual gameplay. It IS more powerful than normal poisons, but that's the point.

Even if your intended victim doesn't actually get REALLY poisoned (the DC of 10 being the poisons main effect) it's still likely that they're going to experience SOMETHING. Some sickening, or maybe even being so sickened they're staggered.
Usability: Your action and gold probably weren't wasted. This would make a nice middle of the road poison. It's potentially good enough that it's worth trying to use on a specific target, but you don't have to save it for a grand high "price on their head" situation or something. You can dart someone in the arm and still feel like you got your moneys worth when they stumble back in a sickened sweat, vomiting, INSTEAD of hitting your wizard with their sword again.
Price: It's not dirt cheap, but it's low enough that even a low-level rogue could stand to pack a dose or three of it for emergencies. It's really good for 5th level, where you've got plenty of gold to carry a good amount of doses. A 5th level fighter (with 14 CON) who rolls a 14 will shrug the poison off. A 13 or less, and they're at least feeling sick from it for a few rounds. So you've got better than 50% chance of it actually helping, and a decent chance of it doing darned good. Us it on mages or skill monkeys and watch hilarity ensue.

Of course, it's incredibly illegal to produce, sell, or own :smallwink:

(As an additonal disclaimer, I swear that came off the top of my head. If someone's come up with something or posted it somewhere else or seen it suggested on another forum or in a magazine ect, ect.... it wouldn't surprise me. No malice intended, no credit-stealing was being attempted, it just seemed like an idea).

Theli
2007-12-03, 05:47 PM
NM, forgot to read second page of thread.

Here's another thumbs up for drow poison. Combine with sneak attack for good effect.