Shadow Monk / Gloomstalker Build Advice for DoMM

[bsullivanp]

I've seen a few posts about this sort of build, but not many. I also have heard that MCing Monk is never a great idea, but the idea of a Monk has always appealed to me, if only I could eek a bit more DPS out of it. So my thought is to optimize a build that probably is less than optimal.

In any case, starting a Dungeon of the Mad Mage campaign with a party consisting of a Druid, Cleric, Paladin, and Bard. So casting is covered, melee...less so.

The idea is a Bugbear Gloomstalker 4 / Shadow Monk 16.

I rolled pretty OK: STR: 13 / DEX: 18 / CON: 15 / INT: 11 / WIS: 16 / CHA: 13.

I'm thinking the following build:


Progression: R1 > M2-7 (M6) > R8-10 (R4) > MX (M16)
Feats/ASI: DEX + 2 (5th), Mobile (10th), WIS +2 (12th), Sentinel (16th), Tough (20th)
Fighting Style: Blind Fighting
Weapons: Longsword (for Versatile)


My rationale is that with Extra Attack + Dread Ambusher 3rd Attk+ Flurry of Blows + Bugbear Surprise Attack + Favored Foe, I could get a pretty decent Nova 1st Round. Additionally, Hunters Mark + Flurry of Blows in later rounds still keeps my DPS at a decent level.

From a gameplay/flavor standpoint, the idea of stalking around as a scout, and teleporting in behind an enemy to destroy with the Nova round, or stun lock them if not, sounds really fun. In the large dungeon crawl with many mages that is DoMM, this sounds like it could be a very effective gameplay strategy.

Any feedback on this build? Will it work well? Any recommended changes to progression or build overall? Better yet, if anyone has played this build, would love to get some first-hand feedback.

[strangebloke]

You're right to say that monk MCs are 'against conventional wisdom' however conventional wisdom is wrong. Monks generally benefit a lot from multiclassing, since they offer lots of unique bonuses and mostly lack things that can be easily gained through multiclassing.

In this case, yeah. The movement bonuses from monk stack with the gloomstalker bonus. So you can rush into combat with frankly absurd speed, and the number of attacks is sufficient to kill several enemies

Now to be clear: 'melee' is not really a role. Your damage will lag behind a more classic sharpshooter build, but that's okay. Not everyone needs to be a sharpshooter and you will be effective.

Now for more structured commentary

The alternative to bugbear would be some kind of elf. Half-Elf / Wood Elf / Shadar Kai / Eladrin. This has a variety of benefits, including elven accuracy, which you'll get a lot of mileage out of thanks to the darkness ball.
The darkness ball is really strong but it won't work against enemies with blindsight or tremorsense, so its utility diminishes as the game goes on. Still great for dealing with a lot of threats though.
Ki Fueled Attack is a really strong ability at most levels. A normal BA attack from martial arts might be 1d4 or 1d6, but with KFA that turns into 1d10! So basically KFA improves any usage of ki during your action, including things like stunning strike, focused aim, or casting darkness via shadow magic.
Stunned enemies auto-fail grapples, so there's a lot of nonsense you can do if you get a stun on the first attack. At moderately high levels you can stun someone, bonus action dash with 1 ki, grapple them, then run 30 feet up a wall and power bomb them? Efficient? No. Cool? Yes.
Overall I think 3-4 levels of BM is better here. You get a whole second action instead of just one extra attack, and the dice are useful for a variety of reasons. Of course you could also take levels in all three classes.

[Reach Weapon]

I've recommended using the Spell-less Ranger variant for this. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25539200&postcount=6) (The question was focused on levels 3-8.)

With a normal Ranger, eventually Ritual Caster (or other spell, cantrip or invocation adding feat) or some Cleric spell slots became pretty interesting.

I don't know that Mobile, Sentinel, or Tough are great uses of ASIs for this build. I really like Crusher (especially with your odd scores). Chef is also quite flavorful. Athlete also leaps to mind.

I've tended to play at tables where the tool proficiency from starting Monk was worth it (and used to convert darts to handaxes, a 1d6, light, thrown, Monk (Dex) weapon).

Also 4th level of Ranger is just that ASI, which is often quite a bit less interesting than other options.

[bsullivanp]

Y
Ki Fueled Attack is a really strong ability at most levels. A normal BA attack from martial arts might be 1d4 or 1d6, but with KFA that turns into 1d10! So basically KFA improves any usage of ki during your action, including things like stunning strike, focused aim, or casting darkness via shadow magic.


Not sure I understand this point. Are you comparing the KFA (costing a Ki point) to a normal BA attack? I would think the more apt comparison would be KFA to Flurry of Blows, since both cost a Ki.

In my case:
KFA = 1d10 + 5 for 10.5 avg.
FoB = 2d4 + 10 (assuming both hit) for 15 avg.

Unless I missed something, I had always considered KFA as a waste when you could just FoB. Again, I might be missing something.

[Reach Weapon]

Unless I missed something, I had always considered KFA as a waste when you could just FoB

The main thing you're missing is the Ki per short rest you didn't get from each non-Monk level; this means you need to budget more tightly than a pure Monk. KFA is "free" when you've spent Ki on something else that turn, and that's often a deal you'll want to take.

[strangebloke]

Not sure I understand this point. Are you comparing the KFA (costing a Ki point) to a normal BA attack? I would think the more apt comparison would be KFA to Flurry of Blows, since both cost a Ki.

In my case:
KFA = 1d10 + 5 for 10.5 avg.
FoB = 2d4 + 10 (assuming both hit) for 15 avg.

Unless I missed something, I had always considered KFA as a waste when you could just FoB. Again, I might be missing something.

KFA doesn't cost ki. KFA becomes an option when you use ki during your action. So you're spending ki on Focused Aim or Stunning Strike or shadow magic or whatever, getting full value from those abilities, and then getting an improved BA attack. Flurry does more damage, but also costs an extra ki.

Focused aim is probably the most efficient use of ki possible, since its a flat 10.5 damage that doesn't get modified by accuracy. Stunning strike is more niche but still really strong against some enemies. The fact that you get something like ~2 extra damage for free when you use these abilities is a pretty good deal.

Also, for the record, I wouldn't use hunter's mark too much unless you can precast it. The demand for your BA is really high. This is the same problem that TWF rangers have, ultimately.

[CTurbo]

On paper, Gloom Stalker + Shadow Monk is great, but always keep in mind how this character will play out starting from level 1(or whatever level your group starts at), not what it would look like at level 20. When do you take those 4 Ranger levels? It would be level 10 before your big Shadow Monk 6 feature would come online.

If you're at level 8, and you've got 4 levels of Ranger, and 4 levels of Monk, this character is going to feel very weak compared to the rest of the party.

So the question is when to take the Ranger levels? Do you start 5 or 6 levels of Monk, and then take the Ranger levels? That's probably what I would do. You need that extra attack as soon as you can get it.

[MrStabby]

I think monk can be a good multiclass, I don't think conventional wisdom says it can't. I think that maybe conventional wisdom is that it narrows down options a lot.

If you are going for a melee chaacter, I wouldn't underestimate just two levels of monk. Step of the wind and patient defence are usually a bit of an unexciting use of Ki. The former becaus the monk is usually fast enough and being dex focused should have a decent ranged attack. The later because getting out of trouble is better than staying where you are and dodging.

On the other hand, as a multi class character you might want to be melee focused, and getting into melee might be a big deal. Every time you can bonus action dash to get into combat and free an action up its like an action surge... and thats a pretty powerful ability. Dodging is maybe not great for a monk, but if you are playing a tougher class with higher ac and as you are looking to tke the sentinel feat, bonus action dodge is pretty sweet. These are abilities that are useful enough that they should see a lot of use, on the other hand you maybe only need use them once per fight - so a couple of times per short rest isn't bad at all.

So this was a bit of an asside as you want to go the other way. What does a ranger dip offer a monk? I guess first question is whetheryou pight persuade your DM to allow you to use Tasha's optional rules. Ranger gets quite a bit there. So you will get a bit more damage - proficiencies, various buffs, spells, the fighting style maybe. I think you are right that blindfighting is "best" give the ease of access to darkness spell. I don't think that the spells should be undersold in all this. A well placed spot of healing, an ensnaring strike or even just a hunter's mark can be good - sure the marginal value is decreased due to the monk's ease of use of bonus action but its still OK.