Mega-Dungeon help

[AOKost]

I'm starting on a journey, stealing ideas from many sources, including the Tippy-verse, and Danmachi (an Anime - Is it okay to pick up girls in a dungeon (for those that don't know it)), and I was wondering if there's been anyone that's worked on a d20 project like that...

Project end goals:

Dungeon levels 1 - 100 'fleshed out' with monsters appropriate for their areas, including cities for 'intelligent' races like Kobolds, Goblins, Drow, etc... and to use _all_ the monsters and races from the Monster Manuals and Beastiaries, spread across the floors in a roughly CR based manner... so floor 1 would have all the 'CR less than 1', and each floor can potentially be as big as it needs

Every 20ish floors, there's a 'safe / sanctuary' floor where there is literally no combat allowed... ever... These are the floors that groups return to when they're deeper in the dungeon.

The last floor will likely be dedicated to 'kaiju' battles or a battle royal with the PCs and _all_ the kaiju... This just opens up that the Dungeon is a living entity that's being used as a 'seal' for something... horrendous... and also keeps the cyclical 12k year cycle of destruction at bay... The other 'big secrets' are that the dungeon itself is alive, and that all the other dungeon entrances in the other 6 Cities (for a total of 7) all lead to the same dungeon... but the likelihood of reaching those cities by navigating the ever changing inner corridors of the living dungeon are virtually nil..

If anyone has any sources that are along these lines that already exist, I'd seriously appreciate any help!

[Batcathat]

I'm not super familiar with it, but I think World's Largest Dungeon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World%27s_Largest_Dungeon) is kind of close to what you're talking about.

[AOKost]

I'm not super familiar with it, but I think World's Largest Dungeon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World%27s_Largest_Dungeon) is kind of close to what you're talking about.


While that does potentially correct, I don't have $170 (as of this post on Amazon) to purchase it, only to get a roughly fleshed out book that doesn't give what I'm looking for to begin with, but it is a great suggestion none the less...

I'm looking to make my own notes, with the communities help... I could easily go to sites like d20psfrd and do a search of all the CR X and throw them into random spots in the dungeon on the roughly appropriate floor... but that doesn't help with potentially making 'societies' with the more intelligent denizens of the dungeon itself at large... Not to mention the Juggernauts that come out if you damage the dungeon itself too much... The only floors that can be colonized are the 'safe' floors...

[Gruftzwerg]

Imho Waterdeep + Underdark would be a fitting scenario (for the anime). Maybe you can find any free campaign or stuff on the internet regarding this option?

[Beni-Kujaku]

While that does potentially correct, I don't have $170 (as of this post on Amazon) to purchase it, only to get a roughly fleshed out book that doesn't give what I'm looking for to begin with, but it is a great suggestion none the less...

I'm looking to make my own notes, with the communities help... I could easily go to sites like d20psfrd and do a search of all the CR X and throw them into random spots in the dungeon on the roughly appropriate floor... but that doesn't help with potentially making 'societies' with the more intelligent denizens of the dungeon itself at large... Not to mention the Juggernauts that come out if you damage the dungeon itself too much... The only floors that can be colonized are the 'safe' floors...

Most of the maps of the WLG (with notably all present monsters in maps A to C) were published here: http://www.james.neetersoft.com/wld/wld.htm
You can check if it is what you're looking for before buying the full book.

Edit: Also I found the pdf for $40 here (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/23425/Worlds-Largest-Dungeon-The), $170 might be a bit overpriced.

[Thane of Fife]

There are numerous Megadungeons out there (Rappan Athuk, Stonehell, Anomalous Subsurface Environment, more that I'm not remembering the names of.... You should be able to easily find a list with a Google search). Most are for retroclones rather than directly for 3.5. I will say that I have heard only bad things about World's Largest Dungeon, so that would not be the one I would look to for inspiration.

[Inevitability]

World's Largest Dungeon seems like a very bad template to work from if you want to have a megadungeon with every published monster. The encounter design is questionable, the monsters are strewn about the map without rhyme or reason, the editing is bottom-tier, and the book directly advises DMs to withold XP, fudge die rolls, and conjure limitless reinforcements in the name of making combat more 'memorable'.

This (lengthy) review (https://writeups.letsyouandhimfight.com/oriongates/the-worlds-largest-dungeon/) goes into good detail.

[AOKost]

Most of the maps of the WLG (with notably all present monsters in maps A to C) were published here: http://www.james.neetersoft.com/wld/wld.htm
You can check if it is what you're looking for before buying the full book.

Edit: Also I found the pdf for $40 here (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/23425/Worlds-Largest-Dungeon-The), $170 might be a bit overpriced.


Very good to know... though I'm likely not gonna use the maps... as a 'living dungeon,' it continues to change over time... so while the exits from floor to floor are likely roughly in the same spot, the floors themselves change very frequently, other than around 'settlements' and the 'safe' floors...

I was hoping more for help fleshing out the floors, as in the first floor should have XY and Z critters running around with each other in a similar biome type of help rather than "Go get this book, it has all the answers," especially when I know it doesn't because I want to use everything in the Monster Manuals 1 - 5 (including Mind Flayers, Beholders, and the like), Fiend Folio, as well as everything from the Bestiaries 1 - 6 (I have them all), etc... I have all the books in my physical library, but I want to put them to use as I describe the different areas the characters are going to come across in the biomes they enter...

I can do it all myself, but its often very nice getting others input because I don't have all the answers..

I'm trying to build my own world, even if I steal a lot of stuff from other areas...

So, think of each floor actually being a new plane of existence in the multiverse somewhere like the Great Stairway, and the Great Tree of Yggdrasil... and thus as it moves slowly through it's section of the multiverse, the 'dungeon' around it changes, require frequent remapping...

I could really use some help fleshing out the a somewhat realistic hierarchical system, where the primary pillars of the City the game takes places in are the Guild, the "Parliament" and the Merchants / Craftsman... The "Parliament" is little more than a public figure where the real power is with the Guild, and the Merchants / Craftsman

But then you have the sub-factions of the different areas of Merchants Guilds, and Craftsman Guilds and where they overlap...

Not to mention how the Parliament is set up and if the parliament is set up of elected leaders and / or kings / queens (insert similar title here)... I mean, each of the 7 - 10 Cities (I'm never certain how many mega-cities you can put on a planet the size of Jupiter and still have plenty of room for the unknown.. logically speaking..

I'll also be transcribing much of what's gathered here to a 'journal' for the upcoming game...

[AOKost]

World's Largest Dungeon seems like a very bad template to work from if you want to have a megadungeon with every published monster. The encounter design is questionable, the monsters are strewn about the map without rhyme or reason, the editing is bottom-tier, and the book directly advises DMs to withold XP, fudge die rolls, and conjure limitless reinforcements in the name of making combat more 'memorable'.

This (lengthy) review (https://writeups.letsyouandhimfight.com/oriongates/the-worlds-largest-dungeon/) goes into good detail.


This is actually something that I've heard, but as I don't have the book, I've not made my own judgement call... But that is actually a big reason I wanted to ask, aside from purchasing a book I can't afford at the moment...

[Beni-Kujaku]

I'm trying to build my own world, even if I steal a lot of stuff from other areas...

So, think of each floor actually being a new plane of existence in the multiverse somewhere like the Great Stairway, and the Great Tree of Yggdrasil... and thus as it moves slowly through it's section of the multiverse, the 'dungeon' around it changes, require frequent remapping...


You must find a reason why this mega-dungeon is there. Why did the gods and other ultra-powerful beings (be they at the bottom or outside having created the dungeon to seal the mega-BBEG) choose to bring so many varied creatures in the same place? To exploit them? To act as guards? What of the plethora who can teleport? How do they keep them inside? Why would they need a room with a regular giant toad if they have the ability to keep balors a few floors down? Is it an XP farm? A colosseum for their amusement? Why do they let adventurers inside and why do they not have the monsters already there fight each other?

Are the 7 cities in the first layer or outside the dungeon? Are there actual cities, actual countries inside the dungeon? How big is a typical layer? As big as a layer of the Abyss (that is, spatially infinite)? Functionally infinite (say, as big as a country, a continent or a planet)? As big as a regular city (with creatures still able to live their own life and to have a kind of food chain)? Or as cramped as a regular dungeon (with literally about one room per species or less)?

If it's the latter, you might want to just imagine a few dozen rooms for each floor (I guess there would be about 40 floors, each dedicated to a CR, but the deeper ones actually being multiple CRs at once). Each one is a bit of a greenhouse put there by the Powers Down Below and focusing on one or two monsters, in their "natural habitat". If the dungeon shifts constantly, then you can roll for your players each time they go through a door, or choose one thematically appropriate. Know that your players will not, ever, explore completely any single layer. Not only would it be extremely boring (it would take decades of weekly sessions to clear the whole dungeon, with a few years only fighting creatures of CR 2 or less), it would completely upend the XP system.

If it's the city-sized layer, create a few NPCs ruling each layer. Definitely more powerful than the rest, but who can still be met, opposed and possibly fought by the PCs. Especially choose a different philosophy for the rulers of the layer in regards to the dungeon. "It protects us from what lurks below", "It traps us, we want to go out", "I don't care about the other layers", "I worship the layers below", "the dungeon does not exist, the portal to the other layers only bring death", "It gives us infinite food, we likes it"... If each layer can communicate, then such a size is perfect for having some sort of pyramidal hierarchy/oppression.

If it's one of the former, then choose a specific kind of weather for each layer (probably getting inspiration from the Abyss, one layer could be Coruscant, with a planet-wide city, one could be the Frostfell, one an infinite ocean, one a gigantic desert, one an ever-changing plain, one a forest-covered mountain...). Don't worry too much about the overall lore of a single layer, it can be a single sentence ("people live with a dog-eats-dog mentality, encouraged by the multiple prides of minotaurs recruiting all animal-like creatures and terrorizing the layer", "Dystopian world where everybody shares everything, and keeping a secret is frowned upon and immediately brought to the angel milicia, a layer-wide force busy keeping people from other layers from invading.", "the Guild of the City has complete control over this layer, and exploits all monsters in there for their usual benefits. Going to the next layer requires paying a hefty toll or hunting a dangerous beast", "Anarchistic good-aligned world trying to escape the dungeon, believing the exit is down instead of up. The inhabitants always prepare for war, sending waves after waves of soldiers to clean one layer after the next and menacing the seal in its entirety"...). However, always make sure there is at least one or two quests on that layer, and at least two named NPCs (one "guide", and one "final boss". Could be the same character, but there must be a beginning and an end to each layer)

[AOKost]

You must find a reason why this mega-dungeon is there. Why did the gods and other ultra-powerful beings (be they at the bottom or outside having created the dungeon to seal the mega-BBEG) choose to bring so many varied creatures in the same place? To exploit them? To act as guards? What of the plethora who can teleport? How do they keep them inside? Why would they need a room with a regular giant toad if they have the ability to keep balors a few floors down? Is it an XP farm? A colosseum for their amusement? Why do they let adventurers inside and why do they not have the monsters already there fight each other?

Are the 7 cities in the first layer or outside the dungeon? Are there actual cities, actual countries inside the dungeon? How big is a typical layer? As big as a layer of the Abyss (that is, spatially infinite)? Functionally infinite (say, as big as a country, a continent or a planet)? As big as a regular city (with creatures still able to live their own life and to have a kind of food chain)? Or as cramped as a regular dungeon (with literally about one room per species or less)?

If it's the latter, you might want to just imagine a few dozen rooms for each floor (I guess there would be about 40 floors, each dedicated to a CR, but the deeper ones actually being multiple CRs at once). Each one is a bit of a greenhouse put there by the Powers Down Below and focusing on one or two monsters, in their "natural habitat". If the dungeon shifts constantly, then you can roll for your players each time they go through a door, or choose one thematically appropriate. Know that your players will not, ever, explore completely any single layer. Not only would it be extremely boring (it would take decades of weekly sessions to clear the whole dungeon, with a few years only fighting creatures of CR 2 or less), it would completely upend the XP system.

If it's the city-sized layer, create a few NPCs ruling each layer. Definitely more powerful than the rest, but who can still be met, opposed and possibly fought by the PCs. Especially choose a different philosophy for the rulers of the layer in regards to the dungeon. "It protects us from what lurks below", "It traps us, we want to go out", "I don't care about the other layers", "I worship the layers below", "the dungeon does not exist, the portal to the other layers only bring death", "It gives us infinite food, we likes it"... If each layer can communicate, then such a size is perfect for having some sort of pyramidal hierarchy/oppression.

If it's one of the former, then choose a specific kind of weather for each layer (probably getting inspiration from the Abyss, one layer could be Coruscant, with a planet-wide city, one could be the Frostfell, one an infinite ocean, one a gigantic desert, one an ever-changing plain, one a forest-covered mountain...). Don't worry too much about the overall lore of a single layer, it can be a single sentence ("people live with a dog-eats-dog mentality, encouraged by the multiple prides of minotaurs recruiting all animal-like creatures and terrorizing the layer", "Dystopian world where everybody shares everything, and keeping a secret is frowned upon and immediately brought to the angel milicia, a layer-wide force busy keeping people from other layers from invading.", "the Guild of the City has complete control over this layer, and exploits all monsters in there for their usual benefits. Going to the next layer requires paying a hefty toll or hunting a dangerous beast", "Anarchistic good-aligned world trying to escape the dungeon, believing the exit is down instead of up. The inhabitants always prepare for war, sending waves after waves of soldiers to clean one layer after the next and menacing the seal in its entirety"...). However, always make sure there is at least one or two quests on that layer, and at least two named NPCs (one "guide", and one "final boss". Could be the same character, but there must be a beginning and an end to each layer)


I'll try to answer some of your questions as readily as I can, given that this is still in the brainstorming phase, and literally nothing has even been put down on notebook paper to outline anything, let alone going into the journal(s) that will be used as the 'world / dungeon guides' for the DM and Players alike...

This dungeon has many purposes, the primary of which is as a Seal to seal away a creature that was seen by the gods of this world to be a harbinger of doom, a Great Wyrm Malcurion Dragon (https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Malcurion_Dragon_(3.5e_Monster)) whos motives were beyond their understanding that had effectively inadvertently wandered into the solar neighborhood as it were. To that end, the biggest and deepest held secret of those that rule over the dungeon (basically a singular god held as completely neutral, who happens to be the head of the Guild) and a few of his cronies is that the dungeons seal is enhanced / strengthened by the souls and strife of those that enter the dungeon.. It isn't there to outright kill those that seek to traverse it's depths, but it isn't going to outright prevent those that delve from dying either.. The purpose for the varied creatures in the different biomes is to potentially further the development of humanity as a whole, but you have to risk to get the potential things from where they are. Many of the creatures bodies can be harvested for valuable parts, components of spells, poisons, things that can be used as remedies but most of the creatures literally spawned from the dungeons walls are strictly there to be XP farms to increase the potential of those that delve the dungeons / increase their level for when they inevitably die and be absorbed into the dungeon to strengthen the Seal.

Sometimes the monsters do fight among themselves, and when that happens, there will be stronger variants that have 'evolved' somehow and be a 'mini-boss' of an area. Sometimes there are 'magic wells' be they actual fountains of water like flows that can be imbibed and even bathed in that would alter and change them, or crystals, or even the flesh of others on the floor.

While the Dungeon is in many ways an enormous colosseum for the amusement of the gods, most of the gods have chosen to give up the super vast majority of their powers to become immortal (do not need to eat, drink or sleep, and do not age nor die of old age, but can be killed through basically any other means, and then they return to the heavens, unable to return for 100 years), and come to 'earth' (because I haven't named the planet yet) to form 'Familias' (yes, I'm outright stealing this).

Teleportation is limited to single floor use only, unless you have an ability that allows you to traverse to another plane of existence.

The Cities are all based outside the dungeons entrences, and the Guild controls all known entrences, because things can 'escape' from time to time, as well as be brought out by 'familias' but events known as Beast Tides happen very rarely, and the fortifications set up at the entrences of the Dungeons have always held them at bay.. That's one of the primary jobs of the Guild, besides Exploration, and trying to keep the more hazardous things out of the general publics hair / safety. But the Guild, as strong as they are, try to be as completely neutral as they can be when it comes to anything remotely related to politics. They strictly want nothing to do with it. They are there to do their jobs. The better job they do a their job, the more likely a promotion after a written exam (thus, promotion based on merit and skill / knowledge). Each Cities populace is somewhere around 10 billion, using food & water traps to sustain a healthy population, even if the food usually isn't tasty... thus there is a thriving market for 'fresh' produce that's magically grown in extradimensional warehouses, not to mention the 'delicacies' that are brought out by the adventurers that delve the dungeon and bring back the meats of powerful creatures...

There are indeed countries within the Dungeons, much like the Drow have their huge cities in the normal underdark, the areas between the Biomes is effectively treated as being the Underdark.. The first several layers have different tribes of goblins and Kobolds, Gnomes, and all kinds of races that want to live there, including fey, in the right areas.. The dungeon has an 'attractive' quality that makes creatures want to be in the areas of the biome / plane where the biome is currently traversing, so those biomes are always thriving with the appropriate creatures / monsters for the CR..

As for the actual size of teach layer, yes, they are effectively infinite... in fact, each biome, if you're not careful, can be infinite if need be.. Hence the Guild constantly having to 'remap' the dungeon as it changes. There are well known 'anchors' that are the dungeon level entrences and exits, and if you don't stay close enough to them, you end up in the back rooms... I mean in another plane you hadn't meant to go to and are effectively lost forever... This usually requires special circumstances though... because while the 'effective' size is infinite, the actual size of each biome that's 'stable' is about the size of a large city (Los Angeles / New York / etc).

The Dungeon in my games isn't meant to be fully explored by my group, or any group for that matter... As for XP... I don't use a standard system for leveling as I use XP as a point buy system to allow my players to purchase basically whatever they want, if they meet the prerequisites and have enough XP... But basically everyone else in the world is stuck being 'standard' characters... who are, granted, stronger and far better in many ways than the common citizen... but it's a similar comparison when compared to a Custom Character..

As for Factions among the Floors... Most will be friendly due to the dealings of other adventurers and the Guild paving the way, but there will be those that actively wish to 'escape' the dungeon, be they dungeon - spawned creatures (likely a template that I will work up that makes everything with it basically mindless and aggressive to anything with an intelligence above 5).. or civilizations like the Drow, and the Illithid..

And for simplicities sake... Most socities that I'm going to be using are going to be relatively friendly 'merchant' types that would rather encourage trade, rather than war... surprisingly, especially the Illithid.. The Neogi on the other hand...

In my games.. The beginning and end of each layer will likely be the PCs desire for stronger enemies / more XP... And because enemies are so potentially prolific, I need to cut XP down to like 5 xp / level appropriate mob lol

The sessions are going to be more geared in the sense of 'old school' This session, we got to X point before we had to return to town... We got back to town, did our downtime stuff, spent our money and XP, gained whatever skills and abilities they're going to gain, and the next session, going back into the dungeon, maybe a different area, maybe the same... it just depends on how the game goes and what the players and I want...

[DrMartin]

check out the necro ranchers campaign journal on this forum for
a) a fun read
b) a good spin on a megadungeon
c) a great way to handle an evil party
d) a crippling addiction to read it all until you finish it, which will delay every project you have going on until you are done with it (experience may vary)

all bundled into one

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?325177-Cattle-Driving-Necromancers-Bizarre-Campaign-Journal

[AOKost]

check out the necro ranchers campaign journal on this forum for
a) a fun read
b) a good spin on a megadungeon
c) a great way to handle an evil party
d) a crippling addiction to read it all until you finish it, which will delay every project you have going on until you are done with it (experience may vary)

all bundled into one

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?325177-Cattle-Driving-Necromancers-Bizarre-Campaign-Journal


I'm sorry to say that that wasn't very helpful for my needs...

[AOKost]

Does anyone have anything to suggest? Or is this going to die? I can continue to answer questions if anyone has them

[Bohandas]

There's a random dungeon generator in Dragon Compendium. This could be supplemented by the third party product Deck of Many Dungeons. (This could be supplemented with the setpieces from the 2e Dungeon Builder's Guidebook and 3e Book of Challenges, although I do not recommend purchasing products from WotC if you don't already have them)

You could also crib maps from any roguelike games that you own, as well as from any completed games of basebuilder games that you play

[AOKost]

There's a random dungeon generator in Dragon Compendium. This could be supplemented by the third party product Deck of Many Dungeons. (This could be supplemented with the setpieces from the 2e Dungeon Builder's Guidebook and 3e Book of Challenges, although I do not recommend purchasing products from WotC if you don't already have them)

You could also crib maps from any roguelike games that you own, as well as from any completed games of basebuilder games that you play


Those are all great suggestions! I was honestly going to use Donjon's random dungeon generator for floor layouts when I needed them..

[AOKost]

Lets try to get this going more in a helpful direction:

Any:


Desert:


Forest:


Grasslands:


Jungle:


Mountains:


Tundra:


Underground:


Underwater:


Wetlands:


These are the biomes that I need to 'flesh out' on each level of the dungeon... The dungeon will have all these biomes on each level, thus allowing me to potentially have everything in that biome for that level(s).. There should be 4 or so levels dedicated to roughly each 'CR' of creature...

I keep coming back to this page: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/bestiary-hub/monsters-by-terrain/ as it is a great resource, but unfortunately, without going to literally every page, and trying to organize them myself by CR, does anyone else have a suggestion?

[Beni-Kujaku]

A few years back, a madman called ezkajii gathered the list of basically all printed creatures in 3.0 and 3.5. For each, he gave a few infos. Not much, mind you, but just enough to know how strong they would be, and, crucially, their environment. This prized resource is available here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?402179-The-Monster-Compendium) for your reading and sorting pleasure (it is quite easy to find "all creatures living in cold forests with CR 4" with the filter function). In my signature is another such list, still incomplete but with sorted abilities and more precision on their powers.

Now, on to your question. What would you like exactly? Would something like
"CR5, forest: the living forest. This forest is well-lit and pretty sparse, but the ground is uneven and rootsshift and tend to grab creatures staying too long in the same place. The whole biome is considered difficult terrain, and people can't rest for too long or they wake up entangled. This is why most non-plant creatures here fly, or can jump from tree to tree.

Monsters:
Spider Eater
Sprite, Pixie, Irresistible Dance
Yuan-ti, Halfblood
Animal, Giant Constrictor Snake
Howler Wasp, Queen (and nest)
Ushemoi, Hadrimoi
Verdant Reaver
Udoroot
Yuan-ti, Halfblood, Psionic
Boggart
Verdant Reaver

Monsters of CR 4 and 6 that would fit:
Tendriculos
Giant Stag Beetle
Phoelarch/Phoera (yes, those live in forests)
Thorns
Briarvex

Possible boss (CR 8)
Treant
Flesh-Mulcher Tree
"

Is there something else you'd want, or is this gonna devolve into a "invent your level" thread? Also, you might not need to make many biomes per environment per CR. Simply having one with most monsters of this CR, then putting the rest (here, basically only the Halfbloods and the Ushemoi) into the higher or lower CR similar biomes as stronger/weaker opponents or as bosses.

Also also, you might want to create planar biomes, like "chaotic oriented Upper Planes" for all these monsters living in Arborea, Limbo, Ysgard or Elysium, which wouldn't be put in any other category. Grouping biomes could also be good. environments in 3.5 aren't the same as in Pathfinder. Apart from planar environments, we only have Aquatic, Desert, Forest, Hills, Marshes, Mountains, Plains, Undergound, and Urban. Similar to some Pathfinder environments, but not equivalent. With 2 more biomes for elemental planes (Earth can be put into Hills and Mountains, Water can be put with Aquatic, only Fire and Air require their own biome), 4 for Outer Planes (maybe a fifth one for things like the Far realm, the Astral Plane and the like, where you put the weird monsters) and 2 more for the undead, constructs and other "Any" monsters you couldn't put anywhere, it would make a total of 17 different biomes. There are about 4000 monsters in 3.x, divided through 22 CR ranges (considering "less than 1" and "more than 20" as single CRs), which would make the less populated biomes only have 1 or 2 monster. Having "weirder" biomes, combining several environments at high CRs would help having diversified enemies in them. It could be to the point where you have a "living land-based Material Plane" biome at CR 18 and still have only a dozen creatures in it (Dragons: very old Black, old Blue, old green, mature red, ancient white, mature silver,
Spirrax
Wild Hunt, Hound of the Hunt
Giant, Shadow
Yuan-ti Anathema
Siabrie
Chilblain
Dragon, Sand, Very Old
Dragon, Fang, Ancient
Landwyrm, Desert), which would just constantly battle for the limited resources available, for example.

[Bayar]

World's Largest Dungeon has already been suggested and in my experience it's not worth playing through. But pinching some ideas from it can come handy. Like your solution, instead of banning summoned creatures we could make them tethered to the dungeon so they cannot go back without using the same rules as teleporting and making the cast duration be for the rounds they stay under the casters command.

Other sources to scavenge for ideas might be Monte Cook's City by the Spire and World's Largest City (if you thought WLD didn't make much sense and the monster distribution was scattershot, wait until you see THIS ONE).

[northernbard80]

Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil is another mega-dungeon option.

There are other elements of the module but the bulk of it takes place in a temple of about 300 areas. It's a good choice if you want a mega-dungeon but for some players, it can get boring. Make sure you know your players before selecting this to play.

[Bohandas]

Maps and floorplans could also be generated by art AIs

Here's an example where I asked the Artbreeder collager to turn a retouched Sealab screencap into a floorplan

https://artbreeder.b-cdn.net/imgs/d3963e4bcd149ac346c3e30ae957.jpeg?width=512

[AOKost]

A few years back, a madman called ezkajii gathered the list of basically all printed creatures in 3.0 and 3.5. For each, he gave a few infos. Not much, mind you, but just enough to know how strong they would be, and, crucially, their environment. This prized resource is available here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?402179-The-Monster-Compendium) for your reading and sorting pleasure (it is quite easy to find "all creatures living in cold forests with CR 4" with the filter function). In my signature is another such list, still incomplete but with sorted abilities and more precision on their powers.

Now, on to your question. What would you like exactly? Would something like
"CR5, forest: the living forest. This forest is well-lit and pretty sparse, but the ground is uneven and rootsshift and tend to grab creatures staying too long in the same place. The whole biome is considered difficult terrain, and people can't rest for too long or they wake up entangled. This is why most non-plant creatures here fly, or can jump from tree to tree.

Monsters:
Spider Eater
Sprite, Pixie, Irresistible Dance
Yuan-ti, Halfblood
Animal, Giant Constrictor Snake
Howler Wasp, Queen (and nest)
Ushemoi, Hadrimoi
Verdant Reaver
Udoroot
Yuan-ti, Halfblood, Psionic
Boggart
Verdant Reaver

Monsters of CR 4 and 6 that would fit:
Tendriculos
Giant Stag Beetle
Phoelarch/Phoera (yes, those live in forests)
Thorns
Briarvex

Possible boss (CR 8)
Treant
Flesh-Mulcher Tree
"

Is there something else you'd want, or is this gonna devolve into a "invent your level" thread? Also, you might not need to make many biomes per environment per CR. Simply having one with most monsters of this CR, then putting the rest (here, basically only the Halfbloods and the Ushemoi) into the higher or lower CR similar biomes as stronger/weaker opponents or as bosses.

Also also, you might want to create planar biomes, like "chaotic oriented Upper Planes" for all these monsters living in Arborea, Limbo, Ysgard or Elysium, which wouldn't be put in any other category. Grouping biomes could also be good. environments in 3.5 aren't the same as in Pathfinder. Apart from planar environments, we only have Aquatic, Desert, Forest, Hills, Marshes, Mountains, Plains, Undergound, and Urban. Similar to some Pathfinder environments, but not equivalent. With 2 more biomes for elemental planes (Earth can be put into Hills and Mountains, Water can be put with Aquatic, only Fire and Air require their own biome), 4 for Outer Planes (maybe a fifth one for things like the Far realm, the Astral Plane and the like, where you put the weird monsters) and 2 more for the undead, constructs and other "Any" monsters you couldn't put anywhere, it would make a total of 17 different biomes. There are about 4000 monsters in 3.x, divided through 22 CR ranges (considering "less than 1" and "more than 20" as single CRs), which would make the less populated biomes only have 1 or 2 monster. Having "weirder" biomes, combining several environments at high CRs would help having diversified enemies in them. It could be to the point where you have a "living land-based Material Plane" biome at CR 18 and still have only a dozen creatures in it (Dragons: very old Black, old Blue, old green, mature red, ancient white, mature silver,
Spirrax
Wild Hunt, Hound of the Hunt
Giant, Shadow
Yuan-ti Anathema
Siabrie
Chilblain
Dragon, Sand, Very Old
Dragon, Fang, Ancient
Landwyrm, Desert), which would just constantly battle for the limited resources available, for example.


First of all, please let me thank you!

I've been going through this monstrosity, and I'm thoroughly impressed! This will be invaluable! Thank you for such an invaluable resource!

Your suggestions on 'planar biomes' makes a lot of sense, and I will absolutely take your suggestions into account as I start to put the floors together... having underground pockets of water that are effectively the Elemental Plane of Water, and Earth are relatively simple descriptively speaking... but you're right about different planar beings not necessarily being in the same areas, and that's part of why I was thinking they could also be separated by different levels within the dungeon itself... Considering the 'size' of the dungeon itself is virtually infinite, having access to different planes works... Maybe the 'floor accesses' serve some form of 'arteries' for the dungeon (Knowledge whatever DC 100 XD).. allowing some form of energies to flow through along with life that fills the dungeons levels... The life that dies within the 'halls' of the dungeon it can replicate, and that's the ever viscous monsters that you can't talk to, but some can tame... Spitballing ideas

"Now, on to your question. What would you like exactly? Would something like"

I'll be the first to admit that suggestions along the lines you put forward would help me beyond measure, mostly because I feel my own descriptive efforts are lacking, but I keep being elected to run games, so I wanted to run something that sounded fun to me, and I've dreamed about having a mega dungeon like this for more than a few years..

"Is there something else you'd want, or is this gonna devolve into a "invent your level" thread?"

I would very much prefer this not devolve into an 'invent your level' thread, but that being said, I can very easily see how that could transpire with the number of levels, and the request for help and input.

[AOKost]

Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil is another mega-dungeon option.

There are other elements of the module but the bulk of it takes place in a temple of about 300 areas. It's a good choice if you want a mega-dungeon but for some players, it can get boring. Make sure you know your players before selecting this to play.

I actually have this and was planning on doing just that lol thank you for the suggestions though.. My players know I'm planning something 'long winded' and 'sandboxy' so they should understand when I'm done...

There is the option in my game for those that want to use 'downtime rules' to build buisnesses, and the like if they so choose, but their primary income and 'job' will always be 'adventurers' or 'delvers' as the best materials to make anything come from the dungeon... hence why it's such a lucrative profession to delve.. even those that specialize in materials harvesting and not fighting make relative bank.

[Fizban]

So I still don't see what the purpose of the "dungeon" is. If it's essentially all going to be randomly generated maps with rooms full of randomly generated monsters from themed encounter tables (generated cities, etc), there's no reason to pre-roll any of that. And games which are nothing but random maps and monsters don't tend to hold interest very long that I've heard of.

It sounded for a while like you basically wanted to make DanMachi. But DanMachi has one dungeon with only one entrance so far as I know, not multiple entrances each with a city with a population equaling that of the entire current Earth. Ignoring that, DanMachi works because it's a narrative, a book, a story. The dungeon is a setting, but the story is about how that setting (and the hidden secrets of how and why it is) influences the lives of the characters, and how they respond to it. "There's some sealed evil you won't find out about until the very bottom" isn't going to cut it.

DanMachi started broadly with an adventurer who keeps getting in over their head and surviving (because they're the protagonist), who gathers a party and starts making a name for themselves (particularly after some events the DM cooked up). Once the group is more known they start getting dragged into guild politics, and then spend a whole season or so just on the surface rescuing NPCs and roleplaying, then another finally starting to peel back some of the mysteries and plot twists, before another plot involving a favorite NPC kicks off the most recent season. That's. . . not a "megadungeon" campaign, not in the endless random encounter roguelike sort. It's not an improv sandbox campaign using a bunch of random tables for filler either. And it's not what I think of as a traditional megadungeon where the PCs go in and don't come out. It's a campaign where the DM clearly has a strong idea of what secrets lie behind the setting which are meant to make up the end of the campaign, but is writing adventures to match the party's interests and NPC interactions while slowly weaving in and building up to those endgame elements as they go. In short, it's just a traditional campaign.

The most significant part of the "dungeon" in DanMachi is that it codifies the immutability of the dungeon setting: mindless monsters constantly respawn (with no end or moral quandaries) and the walls themselves heal and shift. The DM has explicitly *removed* all questions about monster ecology/civilization/etc, instead replacing them with a mysterious fiat "dungeon" that facillitates video game style play: you can't go through the walls, you can't clear it out, every time you go in you have to fight your way from A to B, because gameplay. And make no mistake, that sort of constant repetitive combat is a hallmark of the adaptation from pen and paper fantasy games to fantasy video games. Combat in a roguelike, Diablo clone, Neverwinter Nights, or whathaveyou, takes minutes at most and must be repeated constantly to fill out the runtime (because combat is fun), and each player is constantly engaged. Combat in pen and paper tabletop takes orders of magnitude longer and many players quickly disengage if it's not their turn or nothing "interesting" is happening, and if you're constantly skipping combat because "oh you've already fought those so let's move on to the important stuff," you completely lose the whole point of those gritty scary megadungeon settings: instead of being stuck in hostile territory where a single bad roll could kill you and yet you must fight for every inch at all times, you're. . . not. And indeed, while DanMachi makes a big deal about how dangerous the dungeon is when you're at the edge of your ability and/or wounded and unprepared, it also makes huge excuses out of character levels and teamwork: the safe city in the dungeon was at one time a dangerous milestone the reaching of which required huge effort, but by now the trip is an afterthought. The dungeon is not infinite combat- it's an excuse for the DM to use whatever monsters they want and make them pop out of nowhere without questions like "what do they eat?"

And it's that fiat-powered never ending supply of value at the cost of monster fighting which makes the "city outside the dungeon" work. If you're making a dungeon that's supposed to be full of real monsters, many of which function as people and have their own civilizations, all of which follows actual ecological concepts, well that all does the exact opposite. The cities by the entry points to the "dungeon," which is really just a weird sort of land bridge at that point, will be rich trade hubs presuming that the "dungeon" does have desirable rare goods for the outside world. But not "this entire city runs on monster slaying" or "10 billion people camped out eating mush just to be here." If you want to split the difference and have monster ecology but also infinite wealth for adventurers, you need to come up with features that produce that wealth, which require adventurers to harvest it. At which point you've. . . put a fiat DanMachi "dungeon" inside your "all published monsters can be found in this series of sequentially linked demiplanes" dungeon.

Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil has been mentioned and it's a fairly large dungeon, but I wouldn't put it anywhere on par with WLD let alone the concept you've called for here. Yet now it sounds like you might be planning on running that instead, or were somehow going to incorporate it?


So all of this is why the Cattle Driving Necromancers campaign journal was mentioned. Because that, is a megadungeon. The PCs go in and they don't come out until it's done, having to survive on their own and with the resources they can find. While the foes and maps I'm sure were not all written in stone at the start, as they're revealed the rooms are the rooms and the foes are the foes: areas cleared and defended stay that way, defeated foes are not generally replaced with new bodies out of nowhere, etc (though once they've laid out the paints, the DM smears them around at will in response to the PCs). And of course just like a traditional campaign, the DM already has the endgame in mind- but instead of needing to entice them or simply making events happen around the players, in a megadungeon the PCs will advance inexorably towards the final zones without any need for trickery.

WLD on the other hand fails this, because it has no real cohesion: there is a backstory and final threat that the dungeon is built on, but there's no buildup. There are three different endpoints, only one of which even makes good on the backtory. Half the regions have their major plots completely divorced from the backstory because their inhabitants that moved in, and I don't think anything ever actually says what's at the end. Half the regions also just kinda suck- if you cull the lame/annoying areas you end up with a fairly linear progression through a series of dungeons. The linked review actually has some glaring errors (I made comments as I read through it during this (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?576583-Worlds-largest-Dungeon-and-Worlds-Most-limited-3-5-Core) old WLD thread), but WLD still has enough problems anyway.

And Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil? Well, once you actually get to the dungeon (because the adventure actually has to go through two separate small dungeons before you're directed to the actual main dungeon), it's a big status-quo dungeon. You make sorties into the outer cave ring full of easily replaceable mooks that fight among themselves until you find out about and acquire the keys and/or disguises you need to enter the inner areas, which you can then work through until you find and beat the boss. The party can leave whenever they want with the only penalty being that some amount of mooks might be replenished, and isn't even on any sort of timer as I recall.


So to ask the question again: what is it you're trying to do? Are you trying to make DanMachi, or SAO, or build a megadungeon, or build a series of tables to use with a sandbox game?

If you're set on 100 levels, that's 5 levels per CR- and if you're trying to make things seem natural you can't just have exactly X CR (particularly when many monster families span up to 5 or more levels). The only real tool for that is a list of all published monsters which has apparently been provided, anything further depends on the level of detail you actually want and is going to be your job to fill. You could absolutely fill out "levels" by taking all the published monsters in the desired range, assigning them territory (random or not random or mixed) on a grid, using that to assign terrain (because your primary concern is using all the monsters and their CR so terrain goes last), and then generate encounter tables based on where the party is (highest chance for the primary residents, lower chances for things from neighboring areas). And you can do this as the game goes on rather than trying to do it all at once beforehand.

[AOKost]

I do very much intend to outright steal much of the thematic of DonMachi, and I will use some of the ideas from Return to the Tomb of Elemental Evil, as it's a resource I have on hand. I will be scouring my library (containing over 250 DnD 3.PF books) to use in this campaign, and that's why basically everything is potentially available. I want it to be possible and available. In fact, much of what's going to end up being potentially available (item crafting base material wise beyond the 'basics' (steel, mithral, adamantium, etc)), will be homebrewed from around the multinet.

The monsters and their 'domains' do indeed offer potential materials, from alchemical reagents from monsters, plants, minerals and liquids, to ores, gems and basically anything else the DM (me) decides to offer a 'quest' for by the 'guild'.

While the normal NPCs will have base class levels, my players will not be so limited, and be using a homebrew point buy system to advance themselves, so going out and slaughtering every day is actually something they will want to do far more than 'grinding' out levels just to get to the next level... While my system will allow for literally game breaking abilities and combination, I've decided to use those as 'trump cards' the characters can potentially pull out once a game / in game week that lasts for the characters level in rounds if need be... There are plenty of things that's far too generous with already, but it at least puts a little bit of a curb on utter destruction while allowing for some great 'thematic moments'

I completely agree with what you're trying to get at, and I do by and large want the dungeons 'ecosystems' to be as 'full' as possible, and thus, there will be man low CR creatures in higher CR areas, but at that point, unless they're looking for them for some reason, they'll be beyond the characters notice, and unless otherwise described, lower CR things can be found by the players, like if they want to set a trap for something using a prays favorite bate... but by and large, by that point, the PCs won't be getting much, if any XP for the 'bait' creature(s).

The "drow" and other cities of the other races, while relatively 'safe' areas, and places the characters can go and explore from... it is going to be assumed that from time to time, the players will need to delve deeper and deeper into the dungeon and reach the deeper cities, where stronger entities, and equipment await. That's a large part of why the more powerful / higher level characters aren't in the 'beginning' city. This also helps to explain why 'higher level' spells / personnel are by and large not available in the beginning area, while they are far more available later on, and likely cheaper, though I've not really gotten around to that.

I've tried to give an idea of something that could be the potential 'end goal' of the dungeon, besides the potential of exploring the multiverse 'level by level' and unless they make very specific work to try and get back to the beginning city, they're going to be moving forward, staying in the new city they're moving into, or dying as they delve the dungeon...

I'm wanting to return more to the 'old school' "Okay, we've been playing for however many hours, and we've all decided it's time to stop, ergo, go back to town until the next game, rinse and repeat... Sometimes you accomplish your goals, more often than not, you don't but you make progress in trying to find work towards quest you've undertaken.

I'm trying to set up the 'guild' as a multi-planar guild that has 'outposts' effectively in cities and areas that the 'well of many worlds' or 'infinite staircase' or however you or anyone wants to imagine this dungeon to be... and thereby being the most stable form of 'neutral party' 'government' in all the areas the players will visit... Just because they are a massive organization, doesn't mean they're going to step into 'local' politics any more than strictly necessary... Primarily when protecting the 'locals' from 'monster tides' and to be a go between for adventurers because unfortunately, when you break the number of types of quests down, there aren't really that many...

I'm thinking that the 'random encounters' will be held far more to the corridors and tunnels, and will have hallmark 'glowing red eyes' and basically strictly drop 'mana gems' that will be worth the monsters CR in XP in copper coins... But if they want to harvest a 'monster meat' they have to go to specific places to get whatever... or to find whatever special materials / components / whatever the character is in need of...

So, to recap, I would seriously love for there to be thriving trade between the leveled cities and totally flushed out ecologies in the 'bubbles' of biome, but in reality, that's really just not as possible as I'd like, and each city along the way will turn more into a wayplace than a real home after they really leave the starter city...

Personally, sandbox exploring and killing is my favorite kind of games to play pen and paper, far more than any other medium... Even if each encounter takes exponentially longer, it's far more fulfilling.

I may come to the point that I do start building random tables instead of hand picking monsters that the players face, or maybe we can have someone try to keep track of every race we fight and survive to build their own 'bestiary' in the game... I don't want the community to hand craft every adventure my players face, but a suggestion on 'level 1 - 4 you should include x in X biome / terrain' would be of great assistance, as would help with naming areas, because as I've already stated, when it comes to naming, I'd just as well name an area Jack as 'the ever flowing forest of mirth' that has flowing glades of silvery and yellow flowers mixed with patches of rainbow spattered shrubs and large insects flitting from one area to another. The trees grow up to a hundred feet into the air as the crystals of the cavern shine light down that's reminiscent of daylight and seems to have a day / night cycle. This forests primary export is 'blue dwarven beard moss' that's often smoked and used as tinctures for it's medicinal use in mild relaxation of the mind and body.'

[ahyangyi]

I suddenly remember that Goodman Games produced Castle Whiterock (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/50947/Dungeon-Crawl-Classics-51-Castle-Whiterock), boasting 761 pages and bringing a party from level 1 to level 15. Was that a decent megadungeon?

And by looking for reviews of Castle Whiterock, I stumbled upon this page that lists a bunch of other megadungeons (https://dmdavid.com/tag/megadungeons-in-print-and-on-the-web/), including World's Largest Dungeon, but WLD is obviously the one receiving the worst comment there. So perhaps the other megadungeons are worth looking at?

[AOKost]

I suddenly remember that Goodman Games produced Castle Whiterock (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/50947/Dungeon-Crawl-Classics-51-Castle-Whiterock), boasting 761 pages and bringing a party from level 1 to level 15. Was that a decent megadungeon?

And by looking for reviews of Castle Whiterock, I stumbled upon this page that lists a bunch of other megadungeons (https://dmdavid.com/tag/megadungeons-in-print-and-on-the-web/), including World's Largest Dungeon, but WLD is obviously the one receiving the worst comment there. So perhaps the other megadungeons are worth looking at?


Thanks for the references! I'll read through them as I get the time! 1 - 15 is pretty good as far as advancing in a single campaign from a single resource... I can't wait to delve into the reviews and maybe pick up whatever I can..

As for my own dungeon, I've been thinking about having Kobbolds being one of the supremely prolific species throughout the dungeon, as they are considered (in many games lore) to be prolific miners, likely Dwarves (Duergar specifically) also... But considering much of my dungeon will be more along the lines of Underdark or Elemental Plane of Earth, that will likely mean that Earth Elementals for basically any purpose we can think of, including mining, travel, offense and defense... I was thinking the Kobbolds would be more interested in gems and crystals, while the Dwarves are more interested in metals and unique stone..

I also expect intelligent uses of permanent walls of flame, portals to the elemental plane of Fire, etc to be utilized in crafting... likewise it makes it relatively easy for the different crafting templates to be available, and whomever that likes crafting (I've personally always loved it) to make some truly fantastical and unique equipment by making the characters travel to whatever place I want them to go to pick up new crafting techniques, etc...

While I do love sandbox games, and would like for there to be player driven 'in world drama' like their interactions with officials, merchants, etc, while whatever quests they pick up from Guild will usually be a 'go fetch' quest of some sort, be it for materials of some sort, or saving someone in the deeps... but it could also be a protection / guard quests to lower floors... Somewhere between floors 5 and 10 should be tons of 'small' communities of whatever race that's going to be considered playable, and you can pick up other party memebers / alternate characters / races that will become playable later on, but you can only play one per in person game..

The Drow will likely deal specifically with underground 'slaves' and 'livestock' as well as tenders of the Fungal Jungle Groves with the Myconids.. and often study grafting monster parts and symbiotes..

The Warforged, modrons and Androids will come from the plane of Mechanus, where 'advanced magitech' or 'psytech' can be found..

I plan on having access to 'electro rails' similar to Eberron... and many other things, like flying ships... and try to take things from whatever sources I can... including Shadowrun to allow people to 'jack into the maginet' though for most of my purposes it won't go much beyond getting a potential bonus to Knowledge checks when using your standard sheekaslate.. I have no issues including advanced technologies in my games as readily as 'older' weaponry is still viable, and often more easily craftable in my City, but that doesn't mean that it's necessarily inferior... The equivelant of an Arcane Archer couldn't use an assault rifle or similar for their abilities, but they can use bows, crossbows, and similar 'slower projectile' weapons.. Though 'casters' will also be available... basically guns that use 'spell ammo' for attacks... basically single use scrolls or wand charges, and basically strictly 'attack' spells, or more specifically more often than not, spells that are 'ranged touch attack' specific...

Thoughts?

[TalonOfAnathrax]

I do not suggest using the mega-dungeon published in "World's Biggest Dungeon" (or whatever its exact name is). It has several key flaws:

It's entirely possible to skip whole levels, which destroys the intended progression.
It's often very repetitive, with lots of "fight this monster in this empty room" followed by "fight two of that same monster in a slightly bigger empty room".
The treasure and WBL are dysfunctional.


AFAIK there are no good megadungeons out there. You'll have to make your own.

[AOKost]

I do not suggest using the mega-dungeon published in "World's Biggest Dungeon" (or whatever its exact name is). It has several key flaws:

It's entirely possible to skip whole levels, which destroys the intended progression.
It's often very repetitive, with lots of "fight this monster in this empty room" followed by "fight two of that same monster in a slightly bigger empty room".
The treasure and WBL are dysfunctional.


AFAIK there are no good megadungeons out there. You'll have to make your own.

As that is the goal of this adventure within this particular post / forum, that's what I'm trying to do. Unfortunately, WBL in my game isn't going to be something most can remotely count on... The big 'famillias' will have outfitted even their lower level subordinates with 'passing' equipment, and thus will be relatively well off.. but most... not so much.. They've got to build their names, skills, and abilities, as well as likely scrounging for whatever gear they posses, unless they happen to have a smith / craftsperson in the party, and then they can have whatever they can afford to have made...

For example... My game is going to start with players starting with the following gear:

Backpack
Torches (3)
Club
Staff
Sling (10 bullets)
Waterskin
Explorers outfit (I'm a fan)
Copper Pieces (CP) (10)

They will be able to potentially buy better gear as they adventure and accrue more money and experience (experience is used to 'upgrade' almost every aspect of a character, outside of gear.. such as Special Abilities, Feats, Skill ranks, etc.) and thus making character advancement feel far more granular, while allowing players to 'build' or 'grow' their character however they want... While the other NPCs are 'standard' characters for my simplicity, though the 3 classes I'm going to be using most are Arcanist / Brawler / Slayer with a good helping of Fighters / Swordsages as well...

Basically _all_ the gods are potentially available to accept 'children' into their 'famillias' but many of the more rinound famillias have specific requirements before one can join, usually specific level requirements..

Without straight up stealing the gods and their occupations from the anime, does anyone have any suggestions? I don't mind working within the framework that's given by and large, but I'm also trying to be a bit more granular, and figuring out the interactions and dichotomies.

[AOKost]

I have a slightly different question... In a system where you can potentially learn to use all magics, and players are basically expected to learn magic at some point, what's the point of Use Magic Device as a Skill?

[Bayar]

I have a slightly different question... In a system where you can potentially learn to use all magics, and players are basically expected to learn magic at some point, what's the point of Use Magic Device as a Skill?

Casting spells and using magical devices might be two different things. To paraphrase Stargate: "just because someone can read the symbols on a keyboard doesn't mean he knows how to use a computer".

[Beni-Kujaku]

Learning to use any magic isn't learning to use all magic. UMD is a get out of jail free card if your healing-centered character wants to throw a fireball for once.

[AOKost]

Casting spells and using magical devices might be two different things. To paraphrase Stargate: "just because someone can read the symbols on a keyboard doesn't mean he knows how to use a computer".

That... actually makes way too much sense... And I might use some system like a "stargate network" as portals... but that's just a passing though... So in my games, if you want to use a magic item that requires activation... they need to make a Use Magic Device... Unless they actually have the spell learned? That seems like a fair exchange.

[AOKost]

Learning to use any magic isn't learning to use all magic. UMD is a get out of jail free card if your healing-centered character wants to throw a fireball for once.


Not a bad suggestion, but there is no difference in my system between Arcane / Divine / Psionic... They all fall under their own Spellcraft (School / Discipline) that can be picked up independently.. thus, as long as you're putting ranks in Spellcraft (Conjuration), you can learn to cast healing spells just as easily as you can learn any other magics.

I also use a Mana system, giving one point of mana per rank in Spellcraft, cumulative, with 'bonus mana' as per Power Points rules... This comes just about to be equal to either an Egoist or Psions Power Points (I don't remember off hand, but I did try to make it roughly equivalent by level 20).

Spellcraft (Universal) must be purchased before any other school or discipline of equal rank may be purchased (so you can't pick up your first or latter ranks in Abjuration without at least having that many ranks in Universal first).

Though... I make the cost of casting equal to the spell level, not the level it can be gained at which in my system would be 1 level higher than normal, because in my system, the way you determine the level of spell you can cast, you divide the number of ranks in a given school in half.. 1st rank grants access to all appropriate cantrips, while each even rank only allows you the potential to learn that level of spells, it doesn't automatically grant them.

You learn spells like a Wizard and do require a spellbook (unless you've figured out how to not need one, maybe by taking Spell Mastery as many times as you want, or embedding a Spell Crystal within yourself that only you can access to prevent loss, or who knows what will be thought of), and can change them all out in the morning with an hour of study, or you can take 5 minutes / level of spell to exchange 'memorized' spells for spells you know and have within a spellbook (or equivalent) that you have with you.

You can memorize a number of spells equal to your primary casting Modifier / spell level you're able to cast, but no more than your modifier in total per level (this i added here just to help prevent misunderstandings that, for example, if your primary spellcasting modifier is +5, then you can only memorize a maximum of 5 spells per spell level you can cast, not for each school / discipline), and you cast (basically) as a spontaneous spellcaster..

This does a number of things... It gives far more flexibility to anyone that wants to be a 'caster' and gives more opportunity to utilize their magics, while also allowing a character to decide to specialize in what magics they want to learn by where they place their ranks.

Warlocks (and what I prefer far more, the Avowed, pathfinder warlock rewrite that I haven't seen in publication yet, which really hurts my heart) abilities are also available, with all the 'pacts' and 'essences' but in my game they are described as what "Sorcerer" should have been... without requiring a patron, though you can have one if you find it thematically fitting for your character.

Trust me, I completely understand this is a complete overhaul of magic and psionics, as well as the game in general, and that's why I'm not asking for help on mechanics other than asking about UMD as a random thought.. I more explain all this due to rambling late at night as I take care of the baby and trying to help everyone understand that my game is quite different than most, aside from the mega-dungeon I'm trying to build... My players very well could end up skipping entire areas or floors in their delving... and may even return if they're smart, but I still need help with names and descriptions of places, especially the Cities within the layers.. I mean, I likely could go to some random name generator online, and try to autogen some cities with the populace dichotomies I'm looking for... But I would far rather have the help of the community help come up with some really fleshed out and unique ideas...

Maybe:

The arboreal hanging gardens of the Forest elves on the 2nd layer is only one of many Elven Cities on the level, each containing a different 'kind' of "base" elves, each with their own city architecture..

What does everyone think about this thought experiment?

[AOKost]

Learning to use any magic isn't learning to use all magic. UMD is a get out of jail free card if your healing-centered character wants to throw a fireball for once.


I could also incorporate "Use Technology" if there's an equivalent (I haven't looked too much into the crossover between Pathfinder and Starfinder).. And this could be exactly what I need... You can use it to activate magic devices that have spells you don't know how to use / haven't taken ranks in the appropriate Spellcraft... And to interact / use "advanced" technology...