Help me throw better

[Rukelnikov]

For a long time I've been trying to make a build that uses thrown weapons in a way that wouldn't be improved by just using a different weapon.

Since thrown weapons are generally one-handed they tend to be compared with a hand crossbow, so in part that how I started my thought process, can I make a build centered around thrown weapons that wouldn't be better by just switching to a hand crossbow?

So what can thrown weapons do, that a handcrossbow can't do better?

Well, darts are the only thrown weapon with which we can make use of Sharpshooter, which is why its often the go to when trying to make thrown weapons build. The difference between darts and a hand crossbow, however, is that the former having the Thrown and Finesse tags, means we can focus on Str instead of Dex, and make use of the Thrown Weapon style, and we have a feat over the usual XBE/SS.

Thrown weapon style is +2 damage, but darts deal 1 less damage on average, so with thrown style this would be doing 1 more damage per attack on average, however, you don't have the bonus action attack. We could get bonus actions from class, sub, whatever to fill a lot of combat rounds worth of bonus action, and that way try to catch up to XBE.

The problem with the TW style is that it doesn't fully fix the main drawback of throwing weapons which is are you no longer wielding your weapon. Sure it fixes it at the early levels, but as soon as you get a magic throwing weapon, the style is not making all your attacks be with a magical weapon, and if the magical properties of the weapon are making it return, then we don't need the style feature of being able to draw the thrown weapon as part of the attack.

Add to this the inherent drawbacks of having to carry loads of weapons, and getting your damage resisted until and if you get a returning weapon. This can be circumvented yeah, maybe get 6 levels of Kensei, or get a Returning Dart from your Artificer party member, but by doing that we aren't gaining on a hand crossbow we are merely doing the same, we would be just catching up in this department.

So in the end we would be jumping a loot of hoops, end up with a clunky build with clunky playability, and likely less efficient than if we had done the same build with a hand crossbow instead.

Thus, lets not focus on the TW style, what can we do better by being Str focused and having a melee weapon equipped? Having a melee weapon equipped means our AoOs are much better, so while someone with XBE could be in melee and fire without problems, they'd have to jump some hoops to match our OAs.

There's also class access, Barbarian and Paladin require 13 str in order to multiclass, is there something there we could use?

Barbs Rage Damage and Reckless attack don't work since those require melee weapon attacks, and we want to do ranged attacks. Zerk's Frenzy requires melee weapon attacks and Zealots's Divine focus works with any weapon, so no niche there, well we could make use of Divine Focus while a HXB user would need to put points in Str to do so, but I don't know if that's enough to justify going Barbarian, rage would at least cut most damage in half, but limits our concentration, so IDK, haven't really explored this.

Improved Divine Smite works with melee weapons though, so we could apply it for throwning and it couldn't be replicated with a hand crossbow either. That's something I guess.

Being close to the enemy also means we can make use of Spirit Shroud, but this does mean we are not making much use of our range either.

So maybe a Paladin with PAM and a spear? We could wear Plate and Shield, and be the frontliner, using thrown attacks and PAM reactions.

The problem is that if we are in the frontline, we probably aren't getting that much out of the weapon having the thrown property. And worst of all, I played a Tome Archfey5/Ancients2 with PAM and a quarterstaff which I used Shillelagh on, and ended up spamming EB much more than I had hoped. So the build seems like it'd be better by just going with a melee weapon, or just using EB.

So, I turn to you playground, what's a build that focuses on thrown weapons, that wouldn't be improved by just changing the weapon to something else?

[Spacehamster]

Battle master 6, artificer 2, for returning weapon infusion so now you have a +1 magical returning dart, do custom lineage with following stats after +2 DEX from race: 10/17/12/13/14/8. Quick toss from battle master let’s you bonus action throw weapon as well.

Thrown weapon style at 1, skill expert +1 DEX, +2 DEX at 4, at 6 sharpshooter, at 8 you have returning magic dart from artificer, then back to two levels fighter and take a good feat of your choice maybe mobile to compensate for shorter range or fey touched for hunters mark or hex & misty step, then 3 gloom stalker for dread ambusher & minor spells and archery style.

Edit: damn you, now you made me want to play this weirdo! 🤣

[Kane0]

Hmm. Quick Toss, Weapon Bond and/or Shield Master could be good alternative uses for your BA? Soulknife Psychic Blade too but that explicitly takes a second hand so you give uo a shield for that.

Then you have Branding Smite, Entangling Strike, Hex/Hunters Mark, etc.

But honestly youre more or less right. Without houserules or homebrew theres no reason to focus on throwing when other choices do it all better (unless youre doing it for the flavor and style points of course, i mean mechanically speaking).

[Goobahfish]

There is probably something there with Kensei Monk? Darts are Monk weapons which eventually have their die increased at level 5/11 etc and Kensei can get a 3rd (read bonus) attack pretty easily? Monk 6 (for One with the Blade and Magical Kensei weapons)... You could dual-wield javelins in close combat with the dual-wielder feat. I guess add Battlemaster/Gloomstalker on top.

Probably over-subscribing to the bonus action there...

So, you can use One with the Blade/the +2 to hit Ki ability to guarantee at least 6 BA attacks per SR. With Thrown Weapon Fighting you don't ever need to worry about drawing weapons and you get a +2 damage... If you go KS 6/ BM 3/ GS 3 you end up with 2 attacks + a pretty reliable 3rd bonus attack, a 4th when you start combat... you can do any simple throwing weapon (for the aesthetics) doing... D6+2+Dex/hit with the potential for Hex, BM and KS shenanigan bonus damage...

Feats... SS...

If you are stuck in melee you can just go melee... and get +2 AC (shield becomes less relevant) at range you can deflect arrows which makes you quite a bit more robust than lots of other builds. Gloomstalker lets you add +WIS to initiative too. As you aren't actually really using Martial Arts (because you can use a D6 weapon for thrown) you probably could just go armoured without much drawback (your unarmed attacks suck I suppose). I think there is a fun build in there somewhere.

[Schwann145]

Throwing being less-than-ideal mechanically seems fitting, considering it's a less-than-ideal fighting style. You're using lightweight weapons and disarming yourself with every attack. Seems counter productive to reliably doing damage to a foe!
The fact that there are ways to build it, in-game, as a primary strategy is already a win, IMO. Expecting it to be buildable to the point of being better than other, much more obvious, styles? Seems to be reaching, if we're being honest.

To look at it another way, however: throwing weapons will never be a winning strategy in a game with bloating HP values. You need your one or two throws to count, and single attacks just never really count like that in D&D.
Suffice to say, you just won't find a thrown build that isn't improved by switching weapons. Magic makes it do-able, but it's never had (nor ever will have) the support to be mechanically superior.

[claypigeons]

If you're open to UA material, Path of the Giant barbarian makes for a solid thrower.

[Dork_Forge]

My go-to way to play a Battle Smith is a returning spear and a shield. It gives you high AC and seamless skirmishing, this can easily be improved by slapping the Dueling style on top for more damage and you get a smite-like ability later on. If you're really focused on throwing you can even stack Dueling and thrown weapon to double down.

IMO you have two clear paths for throwing builds, the way you tweak them changes, but you have two core options:

- Artificer for returning weapon

- Kensei for turning any weapon magical

Kensei gives you a solid damage boost with the bonus action and damage scaling and is (imo) best suited to darts. Artificer is best suited to throwing spears, particularly when you can have enchanted shield and armor.

[Rukelnikov]

If you're open to UA material, Path of the Giant barbarian makes for a solid thrower.

It's not really something I'm planning to play, it's more of a thought excercise, so I'd limit the build to official stuff only.

I've been thinking that maybe weaponizing the Monk's Deflect Missiles to get a reaction attack outside of our turn, and taking rogue levels to make those reaction attacks apply sneak attack would be the best way to go, I'd have to find the best combination of Monk/Rogue levels for more uses per short rest vs more damage, and then decide the rogue sub, possible dips, and how to have a creature attacking us every turn with a predetermined weapon, a simple way could be having an Animate Dead skeleton attack us, but RAW that'd be with a bow, which again RAW I don't think would allow us to use sneak attack.

I think Kensei 6 would be the least, both for the Ki points, and to make anything we throw count as magical, since deflect arrows makes it count as a monk weapon for that attack*, allowing for some weird strats.

For Rogue its probably gonna be soulknife, Phantom, or AT, depending on how I get something to chuck magic stones or cannonballs at us.

*This could be circumvented in a number of ways, most simply making the weapon that'll be chucked at you be an artificers Returning weapon, thus the creature attacking you would have a magical weapon that returns to it, thus fixing how you will be attack every round.

[Kane0]

Throwing being less-than-ideal mechanically seems fitting, considering it's a less-than-ideal fighting style. You're using lightweight weapons and disarming yourself with every attack. Seems counter productive to reliably doing damage to a foe!
The fact that there are ways to build it, in-game, as a primary strategy is already a win, IMO. Expecting it to be buildable to the point of being better than other, much more obvious, styles? Seems to be reaching, if we're being honest.


Counterpoint; this is a fantasy game of magical elves teleporting around and throwing lightning bolts at demons and vampires. Why shouldnt the super strong hero adventurer be able to hurl boulders at least as effectively as the mage casting spells that do exactly the same thing?

[sithlordnergal]

Sooo, in order for thrown weapons to be as good as, or better than, a Hand Crossbow, we need to find a way to get several things:


Get consistent Bonus Action attacks, like you would with Crossbow Expert
Benefit from Sharpshooter
A way to throw our magical weapons without actually losing them
Benefit from the Archery Fighting Style
Match/surpass the range of a Hand Crossbow
Match/surpass the base damage of a Hand Crossbow



Sadly, there's not really a way to emulate all of that with thrown weapons. For example, we can take 2 levels of Artificer in order to get Returning weapon, 1 level of Fighter for the Archery Fighting Style, and use Darts in order to benefit from Sharpshooter. We can also use levels of Monk in order to increase the Dart's base damage above 1d4. Unfortunately we can't match the range of a Hand Crossbow with a Returning Dart, and we don't have a way to make a Bonus Action Attack with a Dart.

If we use a Dagger, we can get Bonus Action Attacks, but now we need two Returning Daggers, we can't benefit from Archery or Sharpshooter, and we do less damage with our Off-Hand Attack due to Two-Weapon Fighting rules. We could use a Javelin in order to deal with the range and base damage, but we lose out on the Bonus Action Attack, Sharpshooter, and Archery.

[Rukelnikov]

Sooo, in order for thrown weapons to be as good as, or better than, a Hand Crossbow, we need to find a way to get several things:


Get consistent Bonus Action attacks, like you would with Crossbow Expert
Benefit from Sharpshooter
A way to throw our magical weapons without actually losing them
Benefit from the Archery Fighting Style
Match/surpass the range of a Hand Crossbow
Match/surpass the base damage of a Hand Crossbow



Sadly, there's not really a way to emulate all of that with thrown weapons. For example, we can take 2 levels of Artificer in order to get Returning weapon, 1 level of Fighter for the Archery Fighting Style, and use Darts in order to benefit from Sharpshooter. We can also use levels of Monk in order to increase the Dart's base damage above 1d4. Unfortunately we can't match the range of a Hand Crossbow with a Returning Dart, and we don't have a way to make a Bonus Action Attack with a Dart.

If we use a Dagger, we can get Bonus Action Attacks, but now we need two Returning Daggers, we can't benefit from Archery or Sharpshooter, and we do less damage with our Off-Hand Attack due to Two-Weapon Fighting rules. We could use a Javelin in order to deal with the range and base damage, but we lose out on the Bonus Action Attack, Sharpshooter, and Archery.

TBH I don't think we need to match the range, but I agree with the generally idea which is we need to match the damage.

We don't need to match the damage of Fighter using a hand crossbow though. The aim is an at least decent* build that wouldn't be improved by just switching to a different weapon.

*A wizard with 16 in STR and 8 in Int, Con, and Dex is likely better off using thrown weapon instead of anything else, but thats not what I'd consider a decent build.

[Schwann145]

Counterpoint; this is a fantasy game of magical elves teleporting around and throwing lightning bolts at demons and vampires. Why shouldnt the super strong hero adventurer be able to hurl boulders at least as effectively as the mage casting spells that do exactly the same thing?

Counterpoint to your counterpoint; For the same reason said magical elf doesn't have a default fly speed or the ability to at-will shapechange into an M1 Abrams tank. "It's fantasy" is not the same as saying "anything goes, because it's fantasy."

[Dork_Forge]

Sooo, in order for thrown weapons to be as good as, or better than, a Hand Crossbow, we need to find a way to get several things:


Get consistent Bonus Action attacks, like you would with Crossbow Expert
Benefit from Sharpshooter
A way to throw our magical weapons without actually losing them
Benefit from the Archery Fighting Style
Match/surpass the range of a Hand Crossbow
Match/surpass the base damage of a Hand Crossbow



Sadly, there's not really a way to emulate all of that with thrown weapons. For example, we can take 2 levels of Artificer in order to get Returning weapon, 1 level of Fighter for the Archery Fighting Style, and use Darts in order to benefit from Sharpshooter. We can also use levels of Monk in order to increase the Dart's base damage above 1d4. Unfortunately we can't match the range of a Hand Crossbow with a Returning Dart, and we don't have a way to make a Bonus Action Attack with a Dart.

If we use a Dagger, we can get Bonus Action Attacks, but now we need two Returning Daggers, we can't benefit from Archery or Sharpshooter, and we do less damage with our Off-Hand Attack due to Two-Weapon Fighting rules. We could use a Javelin in order to deal with the range and base damage, but we lose out on the Bonus Action Attack, Sharpshooter, and Archery.

Eh, I don't really agree with that firm list. The range will rarely be used to its extreme and can be compensated for with PC movement and Sharpshooter is a pretty liabilty way of getting damage.

Going for throwing is mostly for fun, but has real benefits like not needing both hands (shield), being able to switch to melee more easily and so on.

Addressing the list though as a Kensei:

1) Kensei Shot to get bonus damage to compensate for the bonus attack, Ki-Fueled Strike for bonus attacks every now and then.

2) I'm going to assume this is damage, Kensei shot, later on scaling damage die etc. If you go daggers/spears then stacking Dueling and Thrown Weapon are good damage bumps

3) This doesn't matter since you make weapons magical

4) This works with darts, but isn't really necessary, you can splurge on the Monk accuracy bump when necessary

5) Just move closer, big monk movement

6) Surpassing base damage isn't hard, as simple as scaling with MD in later levels, strapping on fighting styles

Big thing is that the hand crossbow, as laid out in your 'to beat' is that it needs two feats, in addition to increasing your Dexterity. Having free ASIs/feat choice is pretty big (comparative) benefit to offset things. The CBE+SS build only really works well when propped up by the Fighter's level 6 ASI and Variant Human, otherwise you're trading Dex progression for the feats.

[Kane0]

"It's fantasy" is not the same as saying "anything goes, because it's fantasy."

Well yeah, but throwing things good is already something that goes... for casters. Catapult is one of the better 1st level blasting spells, Magic Stone is great for handing to peasants or Tiny Servants, and thats even before you go past level 1, start reflavoring spells or consider that the 'cast' in spellcasting is synonymous with 'throw'.

So why not let the warriors using their stats, style, class/subclass and feat selections accomplish the same? We have already established that a hand crossbow is better, so it cant be a balance concern. I simply don't accept the appeal to realism in this case.

[Schwann145]

So why not let the warriors using their stats, style, class/subclass and feat selections accomplish the same?

Between class options (Monk, Artificer, etc), Fighting Styles, and magic items... they can!
And, just like how casters are inferior damage dealers to martials in almost all cases, throwing is inferior to non-throwing. :smallwink:

[Gignere]

Between class options (Monk, Artificer, etc), Fighting Styles, and magic items... they can!
And, just like how casters are inferior damage dealers to martials in almost all cases, throwing is inferior to non-throwing. :smallwink:

Yeah if I was playing a thrower I’d focus on adding conditions to throwing weapons and not just damage. So likely I would be using battle master chassis, and if the DM doesn’t work with me for a magic weapon or the party doesn’t have an artificer I’d multi into artificer , eventually.

My build would probably be, half-elf, with sharpshooter, martial adept and elven accuracy. Going battlemaster to get precision, quick toss, goading, tripping, menacing, maybe disarm and pushing attack.

Grab a bunch of nets so you can quick toss the nets and apply restrained condition with a bonus action. So now you can apply the prone, frightened, or disadvantage to attack anyone but you condition at range. You can also push folks up to 15 feet away really great if you can knock them off ledges or into other hazards.

[sithlordnergal]

Eh, I don't really agree with that firm list. The range will rarely be used to its extreme and can be compensated for with PC movement and Sharpshooter is a pretty liabilty way of getting damage.

Going for throwing is mostly for fun, but has real benefits like not needing both hands (shield), being able to switch to melee more easily and so on.

Addressing the list though as a Kensei:

1) Kensei Shot to get bonus damage to compensate for the bonus attack, Ki-Fueled Strike for bonus attacks every now and then.

2) I'm going to assume this is damage, Kensei shot, later on scaling damage die etc. If you go daggers/spears then stacking Dueling and Thrown Weapon are good damage bumps

3) This doesn't matter since you make weapons magical

4) This works with darts, but isn't really necessary, you can splurge on the Monk accuracy bump when necessary

5) Just move closer, big monk movement

6) Surpassing base damage isn't hard, as simple as scaling with MD in later levels, strapping on fighting styles

Big thing is that the hand crossbow, as laid out in your 'to beat' is that it needs two feats, in addition to increasing your Dexterity. Having free ASIs/feat choice is pretty big (comparative) benefit to offset things. The CBE+SS build only really works well when propped up by the Fighter's level 6 ASI and Variant Human, otherwise you're trading Dex progression for the feats.


Mmm, depends on the combat encounter. While PC movement can help, I've found having a minimum of 120ft is really important for ranged fighters. Unfortunately Javelins are the only thrown weapons with that kind of range...Not much a player can do about that though, outside of the DM gifting them a Back Biter Spear while they're playing as a Monk.

I do agree that focusing on throwing weapons is mostly for fun, but OP wanted a proper build:



Since thrown weapons are generally one-handed they tend to be compared with a hand crossbow, so in part that how I started my thought process, can I make a build centered around thrown weapons that wouldn't be better by just switching to a hand crossbow?

So what can thrown weapons do, that a handcrossbow can't do better?

And unfortunately, in order to make something that wouldn't be better than just swapping to a hand crossbow, you really need to be able to match the hand crossbow. Which, to be fair, is something all ranged builds struggle with outside of Eldritch Blast focused builds...and even then EB doesn't get better until later levels when you can pump out 4 to 8 bolts with just your Action and Bonus Action. Hence why I'm looking at what CBE/SS builds do best and comparing them to what throwing builds can do.

As for Kensei, I had completely forgotten it exists, but it does do some to help with the build. Being able to make your Kensei Weapons automatically magical fixes the magic weapon issue. That said...It doesn't really do too much outside of that. Addressing your other points:

- Kensei Shot is kind of a trap. It requires a bonus Action to use, which means you can't use any of your Monk's Bonus Action Attacks, and the damage from Kensei Shot doesn't scale, it remains a d4 from level 3 to level 20. You're better off using your Bonus Action for Flurry of Blows.

- This is mostly about damage, sadly the Kensei doesn't actually do much to bridge the damage outside of making all their weapons magical to bypass resistance without worrying about losing the weapon. You can stack Dueling/thrown Weapon for a solid +4 to damage...but you're still competing with Sharpshooter which, even without the -5/+10 has some major benefits you'll lack.

- You can always run up and use Melee...but if that's the case, why not just focus on Melee then? We're looking for a throwing build, I feel like melee is a bit antithetical to that idea. But maybe that's just me...As you mentioned, one of the big boons of using throwing weapons is the fact you can swap to melee pretty easily. I just feel like I'd want a throwing build to be focused purely on ranged attacks, and avoid melee like any ranged build would.


As for ASIs/feat choice offsetting CBE+SS, I would actually disagree. There's very little in the way of feats that benefits a ranged fighter more than those two feats. I also disagree that the build only really works well with Fighters or Variant Humans to off-set the loss of Dex. I find that the only characters who actually have to max out their main stat in 5e are casters, because its really difficult to boost your spell DC. Everyone else really only needs an 18, even with the -5 from SS.

[Dork_Forge]

Mmm, depends on the combat encounter. While PC movement can help, I've found having a minimum of 120ft is really important for ranged fighters. Unfortunately Javelins are the only thrown weapons with that kind of range...Not much a player can do about that though, outside of the DM gifting them a Back Biter Spear while they're playing as a Monk.

To clarify, I'm not talking about ranged Fighters specifcally, this could just be a table difference. I've never played or ran an encounter where a Monk couldn't run and throw, but the hand crossbow would be able to hit. It's a sweet spot I just don't personally create or come across.


I do agree that focusing on throwing weapons is mostly for fun, but OP wanted a proper build:

And unfortunately, in order to make something that wouldn't be better than just swapping to a hand crossbow, you really need to be able to match the hand crossbow. Which, to be fair, is something all ranged builds struggle with outside of Eldritch Blast focused builds...and even then EB doesn't get better until later levels when you can pump out 4 to 8 bolts with just your Action and Bonus Action. Hence why I'm looking at what CBE/SS builds do best and comparing them to what throwing builds can do.

I mean, said OP also replied to you saying they don't think matching the range is necessary.


As for Kensei, I had completely forgotten it exists, but it does do some to help with the build. Being able to make your Kensei Weapons automatically magical fixes the magic weapon issue. That said...It doesn't really do too much outside of that. Addressing your other points:

- Kensei Shot is kind of a trap. It requires a bonus Action to use, which means you can't use any of your Monk's Bonus Action Attacks, and the damage from Kensei Shot doesn't scale, it remains a d4 from level 3 to level 20. You're better off using your Bonus Action for Flurry of Blows.

Conflicting messages are conflicting. If you're focusing on throwing then you're not going to want to bonus action melee, and sometimes that's just not an option (range, flying enemies, damage on hit effects, auras).

As for whether it's a trap, it's free bonus damage that will apply to crits, don't have to always use it but it's a solid option, especially when Ki is low or you want to conserve it.


- This is mostly about damage, sadly the Kensei doesn't actually do much to bridge the damage outside of making all their weapons magical to bypass resistance without worrying about losing the weapon. You can stack Dueling/thrown Weapon for a solid +4 to damage...but you're still competing with Sharpshooter which, even without the -5/+10 has some major benefits you'll lack.

Outside of the -5/+10 you're just getting range and cover benefits, so I assume you care about accuracy. Focused Aim from 5th level and on the upper end of things Unerring Accuracy and Timeless Body.

Want to just add raw damage? There's Kensei's Shot and Deft Strike, or, stacking those styles as already mentioned.


- You can always run up and use Melee...but if that's the case, why not just focus on Melee then? We're looking for a throwing build, I feel like melee is a bit antithetical to that idea. But maybe that's just me...As you mentioned, one of the big boons of using throwing weapons is the fact you can swap to melee pretty easily. I just feel like I'd want a throwing build to be focused purely on ranged attacks, and avoid melee like any ranged build would.

What? My point wasn't that you can run up and use melee, it's that you can switch when needed, which would be something getting in your face. Crossbow Expert is needed for that on the hand crossbow, but throwing means you can more seamlessly just use a melee weapon, including taking advantage of opportunity attacks.



As for ASIs/feat choice offsetting CBE+SS, I would actually disagree. There's very little in the way of feats that benefits a ranged fighter more than those two feats. I also disagree that the build only really works well with Fighters or Variant Humans to off-set the loss of Dex. I find that the only characters who actually have to max out their main stat in 5e are casters, because its really difficult to boost your spell DC. Everyone else really only needs an 18, even with the -5 from SS.

1) Even in your example that's still an ASI for Dex and two feats, which is only happening before 8th level with a combination of Fighter and V Human, and only at 8th with V Human.

2) Whilst I agree that no one 'needs' a maxed stat, we're talking optimization. A CBE/SS build that doesn't max/delays their Dex progression is going to have lower accuracy and per attack damage, and on top of that they'll lower the AC threshold where using SS is worth using.

3) Lower Dex affects a whole slew of things, including initiative and high (non disadv Stealth) AC.


Without the burden of those two feats you can branch out in races and class progression. A Bugbear is frequently insane first-round damage on a Dex-based build, Goblin gives you spike damage, Halfling an accuracy bump etc.

But since you disagree, what is a non Fighter/V. Human/Custom lineage build that uses both feats that really outpaces a throwing build?

[Witty Username]

Artificer can get you the returning weapon infusion, as that will bridge magic weapon and keeping your hands full of weapons.

Kensei shot was hurt a bit by power creep due to the inclusion of focused aim and ki fueled attack. By 5th level that leaves little reason to use it most of the time, and ki is less of an issue for ranged kensei as they don't plan on using stunning strike at all.