Is Psychic Chirurgery Ardent-like?

[martixy]

Lemme explain. :smallbiggrin:

As we all know the Ardent doesn't have an explicit "Maximum power level known" clause, it's all about if he can manifest said power.

Psychic Chirurgery similarly says "You can give a character knowledge of a power of any level that she can manifest."

A 9th level psion (max 5th level) with overchannel is absolutely able to spend 11 pp and therefore manifest Disintegrate (6th level). Therefore Psychic Chirurgery should be able to impart upon said psion any 6th level power.

And between overchannel, torc of power preservation and quori shards, Chirurgery should be capable of granting a 5th level psion every single power in existence, up to and incl 9th level.

Or am I missing something?

[Rebel7284]

I think there is a bit of circular reasoning there.

There are a bunch of ways to augment powers by spending more Power Points than allowed by you class, but just because you CAN spend extra power points doesn't also mean that you can manifest powers of a specific level, that is determined by your power progression.

Technically Heighten Power from 3.0 Psionics might allow you to do it, but psionics had such a massive overhaul between 3.0 and 3.5 that using un-updated 3.0 content is discouraged.

[martixy]

There are a bunch of ways to augment powers by spending more Power Points than allowed by you class, but just because you CAN spend extra power points doesn't also mean that you can manifest powers of a specific level, that is determined by your power progression.

That is determined by your maximum power progression in the case of Psion, Psychic warrior, wilder.
And NOT in the case of Ardent. Hence the phrasing of the question :smallbiggrin:
(Which admittedly seems a bit too obscure for those not steeped in psionics arcana.)

Anyway, the wording between ardent and chirurgery is awfully similar and I'm calling that chirurgery is subject to the same shenanigans ardent is.

Aka, the answer is clearly yes.

[Darg]

That is determined by your maximum power progression in the case of Psion, Psychic warrior, wilder.
And NOT in the case of Ardent. Hence the phrasing of the question :smallbiggrin:
(Which admittedly seems a bit too obscure for those not steeped in psionics arcana.)

Anyway, the wording between ardent and chirurgery is awfully similar and I'm calling that chirurgery is subject to the same shenanigans ardent is.

Aka, the answer is clearly yes.


At each additional level, an ardent learns one new power from her available mantles. She must be able to manifest the new power at the level at which she learns it, however. For example, an ardent who attains 5th level can learn any power from one of her mantles that costs 5 power points or less to manifest; she cannot learn a power from a mantle that costs more than 5 power points to manifest until she attains a level capable of manifesting a power with that cost.

Ardent can't learn powers their level doesn't allow. Other psionic classes have a maximum power level known column in their class table that tells you the earliest you can learn powers of a specific level. Manifester level has nothing to do with it.

[martixy]

Or can they (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?238700-CompPsi-Ardent-Questions-and-Multiclassing)?

Or does it (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/109603/what-determines-the-power-level-of-a-power-an-ardent-can-pick)?

Or.... you get the idea (https://www.enworld.org/threads/question-on-ardent-choice-of-powers.249678/). There's a lot more dissenting opinions (https://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=13506.0) out there than ones that corroborate your interpretation.

Of course, we can argue on RAI, and nijineko apparently brings second hand word-of-god accounts to that effect, but the RAW wording is awfully suggestive of the more liberal interpretation.

[Darg]

I find it extremely difficult to equate "level" (defined term) with "manifester level" (another mechanically relevant term that is not the same as "level"). To do so allows other "level" adjacent terms to break the game.

By default, use of the term "level" in the class descriptions and table refer to class level. If it didn't it would allow so many classes to scale while multiclassing. To say that the RAW reading is suggestive of a liberal interpretation is not correct as the established way to read class descriptions says the opposite.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I find it extremely difficult to equate "level" (defined term) with "manifester level" (another mechanically relevant term that is not the same as "level"). To do so allows other "level" adjacent terms to break the game.

By default, use of the term "level" in the class descriptions and table refer to class level.

You are right until this point. However, the class doesn't say "The ardent can learn a new power with a Power Point cost equal or lower to her level", it says "She must be able to manifest the new power at the level at which she learns it", and that's all. The "level" here is indeed the class level, no problem. My ardent is 3rd level, and has a manifester level of 5, somehow. She wants to learn Telekinetic Thrust (5PP). Is she able to manifest this new power at the 3rd level at which she learns it? Absolutely. Then she can learn it. Or at least the rules don't say she cannot, unless I (and seemingly a lot of other people) have missed something.

[Darg]

You are right until this point. However, the class doesn't say "The ardent can learn a new power with a Power Point cost equal or lower to her level", it says "She must be able to manifest the new power at the level at which she learns it", and that's all. The "level" here is indeed the class level, no problem. My ardent is 3rd level, and has a manifester level of 5, somehow. She wants to learn Telekinetic Thrust (5PP). Is she able to manifest this new power at the 3rd level at which she learns it? Absolutely. Then she can learn it. Or at least the rules don't say she cannot, unless I (and seemingly a lot of other people) have missed something.


For example, an ardent who attains 5th level can learn any power from one of her mantles that costs 5 power points or less to manifest; she cannot learn a power from a mantle that costs more than 5 power points to manifest until she attains a level capable of manifesting a power with that cost.

It doesn't have to say they can't because the default is that they can't. The rules never say nor anywhere else allow you to manifest a higher level power even if you have the manifester levels.

[Morphic tide]

It doesn't have to say they can't because the default is that they can't. The rules never say nor anywhere else allow you to manifest a higher level power even if you have the manifester levels.
The key is another part of your own quote:


she cannot learn a power from a mantle that costs more than 5 power points to manifest

The qualifier is defined by the required Power Points, which are gated by Manifester Level, not the Power Level, which is gated by Class Level. Because of this subtle detail in how it's defined, the rule written would allow a character taking their third level of Ardent at 7th with Practiced Manifester to learn a 4th-level Power, because they have ML 7 to be able to pay 7 PP to pay for that 4th-level Power.

[Darg]

The key is another part of your own quote:



The qualifier is defined by the required Power Points, which are gated by Manifester Level, not the Power Level, which is gated by Class Level. Because of this subtle detail in how it's defined, the rule written would allow a character taking their third level of Ardent at 7th with Practiced Manifester to learn a 4th-level Power, because they have ML 7 to be able to pay 7 PP to pay for that 4th-level Power.

Power point cost is determined by power level. If you took the first part of that quote, the qualifier is the class level: "an ardent who attains 5th level can learn any power from one of her mantles that costs 5 power points or less to manifest. Later in the quote it verifies this by expressing that they can't learn a higher level power unless they attain the class level necessary to manifest it. To read it as you say requires taking rules outside of the class and fill in spaces that don't exist.

[Morphic tide]

Power point cost is determined by power level. If you took the first part of that quote, the qualifier is the class level: "an ardent who attains 5th level can learn any power from one of her mantles that costs 5 power points or less to manifest. Later in the quote it verifies this by expressing that they can't learn a higher level power unless they attain the class level necessary to manifest it. To read it as you say requires taking rules outside of the class and fill in spaces that don't exist.
The term "capable of manifesting a power with that PP cost" is the given lockout against higher-level Powers. The sole purpose of Practiced Manifester and Overchannel is to surpass this as a level-based limit. The terminology is exceedingly blatant that it is the PP-per-manifest limit constraining it, not the pointedly absent "Maximum Power Level known" column that every other Manifester class uses, Divine Mind included. FFS, the Psion's text uses this to describe the limit under "Powers Known":


A psion can manifest any power that has a power point cost equal to or lower than his manifester level.

"Maximum Power Level known" is separately described as follows:


A psion begins play with the ability to learn 1st-level powers. As he attains higher levels, a psion may gain the ability to master more complex powers.

Absolutely no such distinction on Ardent, and no second mention of PP limitations to be defining augmentation limits independently. The same line is the only thing that could be referring to these two functions, so they have to be the same. Thus, the Ardent must have early-access to be able to use Overchannel as intended, and to not have early access must be wholly unable to benefit from ML increases.

[Darg]

The term "capable of manifesting a power with that PP cost" is the given lockout against higher-level Powers. The sole purpose of Practiced Manifester and Overchannel is to surpass this as a level-based limit. The terminology is exceedingly blatant that it is the PP-per-manifest limit constraining it, not the pointedly absent "Maximum Power Level known" column that every other Manifester class uses, Divine Mind included. FFS, the Psion's text uses this to describe the limit under "Powers Known":

"Maximum Power Level known" is separately described as follows:

Absolutely no such distinction on Ardent, and no second mention of PP limitations to be defining augmentation limits independently. The same line is the only thing that could be referring to these two functions, so they have to be the same. Thus, the Ardent must have early-access to be able to use Overchannel as intended, and to not have early access must be wholly unable to benefit from ML increases.

You're still making the assumption that manifester level is what gives the ardent the ability to manifest and learn higher level powers. The description text for ardent says levels. We know WotC knows how to differentiate between levels and manifester levels because other classes make explicit mention of the former and the latter.

The absence of the "maximum power level known" is not "pointedly absent." The class does not have explicit permission to base its access to new spell levels off of manifester levels nor is there a rule that allows any psionic class to manifest higher level powers than their class level allows even if their manifester level is high enough. It's contradictory to the wording in the class description and the consistency of any version of casting rules the game has had. Based on that it's more likely that it was left out from a mistake than an intentional *wink wink* to break common convention.

[martixy]

You're still making the assumption that manifester level is what gives the ardent the ability to manifest and learn higher level powers. The description text for ardent says levels. We know WotC knows how to differentiate between levels and manifester levels because other classes make explicit mention of the former and the latter.

The absence of the "maximum power level known" is not "pointedly absent." The class does not have explicit permission to base its access to new spell levels off of manifester levels nor is there a rule that allows any psionic class to manifest higher level powers than their class level allows even if their manifester level is high enough. It's contradictory to the wording in the class description and the consistency of any version of casting rules the game has had. Based on that it's more likely that it was left out from a mistake than an intentional *wink wink* to break common convention.

We are not making an assumption. That's is the point under argument.

And given its presence in every other psionic class - included classes in the very same book - hinting at deliberate exclusion, rather than accidental omission, absence of the "maximum power level known" is very much "pointed".
^^ The above is an argument for the point we are trying to make.

(The primary proposition is not assumed to be correct. The above statement is an argument made in support of that proposition. That's how basic logic works.)

Meanwhile the part about "levels" you argue on can be interpreted as referring to the point in which the ardent is given the opportunity to gain new powers, rather than the intrinsic limitation.

Here is the sentence:
"She must be able to manifest the new power at the level at which she learns it, however."
Which can be rephrased as
"She must be able to manifest the new power at the point at which she learns it, however."

[Darg]

There is just one minor detail you are skipping: there is no rule that correlates spell level access to manifester level. A 5th level psion cannot manifest a 9th level power even with an effective manifester level of 20. The fact that there isn't a maximum power level known by level is actually more supportive of not being able to manifest higher than level 1 powers than it is to allow you to bypass the class level limit as that is the only power level it gives explicit permission to access.

The text of the powers known ability specifically correlates power level access to class level, not maximum power point expenditure.

[Morphic tide]

You're still making the assumption that manifester level is what gives the ardent the ability to manifest and learn higher level powers. The description text for ardent says levels. We know WotC knows how to differentiate between levels and manifester levels because other classes make explicit mention of the former and the latter.
Manifester Level is the only "level" that applies to maximum Power Points in a single Manifesting, and as this is the only such limiter the limit on Augmentation and Powers Known must be the same thing. Either Practiced Manifester does not let you Augment at your higher Manifester Level, or it allows you to take higher-level Powers Known, because the two are defined by the same line and thus to Augment beyond your Ardent level you must be able to learn Powers beyond your Ardent level.


The text of the powers known ability specifically correlates power level access to class level, not maximum power point expenditure.
No, a 5th-level Ardent can learn "a power that costs 5 power points or less" to Manifest, which is functionally synonymous to a 3rd-level or lower Power. The problem is that there's not a "backup" to separate that from Augmenting a lower-level Power, so either the maximum Power level is broken or Augmentation is. The general community consensus is that it's the maximum Power level that is broken, because that gives a much more amusing result, and Augmentation being broken causes the Ardent to be unable to be used as normal in plenty of other cases.

[Darg]

Manifester Level is the only "level" that applies to maximum Power Points in a single Manifesting, and as this is the only such limiter the limit on Augmentation and Powers Known must be the same thing. Either Practiced Manifester does not let you Augment at your higher Manifester Level, or it allows you to take higher-level Powers Known, because the two are defined by the same line and thus to Augment beyond your Ardent level you must be able to learn Powers beyond your Ardent level.


No, a 5th-level Ardent can learn "a power that costs 5 power points or less" to Manifest, which is functionally synonymous to a 3rd-level or lower Power. The problem is that there's not a "backup" to separate that from Augmenting a lower-level Power, so either the maximum Power level is broken or Augmentation is. The general community consensus is that it's the maximum Power level that is broken, because that gives a much more amusing result, and Augmentation being broken causes the Ardent to be unable to be used as normal in plenty of other cases.

What are you talking about augmentation for? As a general rule you can spend as much power points in a single manifestation as you have manifester levels (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#powerPointLimit). As for practiced manifester, it has a specific clause which prevents the Ardent from having modified powers known from the feat:


This feat does not affect your powers per day or powers known.

The example given in the Powers Known ability of the Ardent flat out tells you that a 5th level ardent cannot learn a power that costs more than 5 pp until their class level rises. This does not break augmentation at all because it only says they cannot learn a power, not that they can't spend more pp if they have the manifester levels.

[Morphic tide]

What are you talking about augmentation for? As a general rule you can spend as much power points in a single manifestation as you have manifester levels (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#powerPointLimit). As for practiced manifester, it has a specific clause which prevents the Ardent from having modified powers known from the feat:
Now you're referencing something that matters, instead of spinning in circles insisting that something written differently works just like normal. Of course, Overchannel has no such restriction, and it's not on the blacklist for Bloodlines, so the problem still exists.


The example given in the Powers Known ability of the Ardent flat out tells you that a 5th level ardent cannot learn a power that costs more than 5 pp until their class level rises. This does not break augmentation at all because it only says they cannot learn a power, not that they can't spend more pp if they have the manifester levels.
Again, compare to the boilerplate copy-paste on the Divine Mind, Psion, Wilder, Psychic Warrior, Lurk, and others. Those classes, including those from the same book, expressly use the analogous wording to reference the Augmentation limit, because they actually have a separate Maximum Power Level. The only defined property of "Ardent level 5th" that constrains you to 5 pp is Manifester Level, so to read otherwise you must infer a "maximum PP of known power" variable attested to literally nowhere in the rules. The more natural result of the text is that Ardent's "Powers Known" choices are defined by Manifester Level because it's defined in terms of Manifester Level variables and does not clearly state whether it's "Ardent level 5th" or "Manifester Level 5th".

My position is simply that it can be read this way because the wording does not contradict such an interpretation, while you're trying to argue that it absolutely cannot be this way because of a larger number of inferences and presumptions than the broken interpretation requires.

[Darg]

Now you're referencing something that matters, instead of spinning in circles insisting that something written differently works just like normal. Of course, Overchannel has no such restriction, and it's not on the blacklist for Bloodlines, so the problem still exists.


Again, compare to the boilerplate copy-paste on the Divine Mind, Psion, Wilder, Psychic Warrior, Lurk, and others. Those classes, including those from the same book, expressly use the analogous wording to reference the Augmentation limit, because they actually have a separate Maximum Power Level. The only defined property of "Ardent level 5th" that constrains you to 5 pp is Manifester Level, so to read otherwise you must infer a "maximum PP of known power" variable attested to literally nowhere in the rules. The more natural result of the text is that Ardent's "Powers Known" choices are defined by Manifester Level because it's defined in terms of Manifester Level variables and does not clearly state whether it's "Ardent level 5th" or "Manifester Level 5th".

My position is simply that it can be read this way because the wording does not contradict such an interpretation, while you're trying to argue that it absolutely cannot be this way because of a larger number of inferences and presumptions than the broken interpretation requires.

My interpretation relies on convention. Your interpretation requires breaking convention before even reading the description. For every single class in the game "level" within the class description refers to class level unless otherwise stated. Making the leap that 5th level is referring to manifester level as governs the maximum number of power points you can spend on any one power is just that, a leap.

None of the psionic classes except ardent have an actual declared limit to the level of powers they can manifest based on level. Ardent in particular has an example that tells you exactly how it works and that it's based on class level. If class level itself were not be the limiting factor for ardent, it would also have wide ranging effects on all the other psionic classes too.

To give an example, the powers known feature gives the psion explicit permission and ability to manifest powers based on manifester level. On the other hand, maximum power level known is largely undefined and only states that the character begins play with level 1 powers only. It does not, however, state that a psion cannot learn or manifest powers over the maximum (any limit can be made more limited in scope by just a change of perspective if it doesn't clearly state what it means). At loosest interpretation it can mean to limit the power level of powers you learn from levels. The only requirement for psychic chirurgy is that they have the ability to manifest the power (not know and can manifest an equivalent level power), which for psion is dictated by manifester level as stated. Therefore, if there is no understood level based limit to manifesting powers, the rules themselves do not prevent it (except ardent which actually has an example stating they cannot learn powers above what class level dictates).

Of course I don't think it possible because there is an unwritten rule that spellcasting equivalents follow the rule that the ability to cast or know level equivalent stuff is based on class level as is declared for spellcasting in the PHB.

Then again, people seem to not go looking too deeply into things when common convention fills in the blanks. So when a class that was stated by the author to have mistakenly left out the maximum power level known ability is different, it sparks a lot of interpretive discussion about what things mean outside of the context of the rule structure it's actually rooted in.

[Morphic tide]

None of the psionic classes except ardent have an actual declared limit to the level of powers they can manifest based on level. Ardent in particular has an example that tells you exactly how it works and that it's based on class level. If class level itself were not be the limiting factor for ardent, it would also have wide ranging effects on all the other psionic classes too.
Firstly, the others do have a declared limit by having a "Maximum Power Level known" column, the entire reason for this arguement existing is that the Ardent is the only Psionic class that doesn't do it that way, instead defining it by PP inside the Powers Known text instead of defining the augmentation limit by Manifester Level. The Divine Mind uses the same access mechanic in the same book yet uses the standard "Powers Known/Maximum Power Level known" table layout.


On the other hand, maximum power level known is largely undefined and only states that the character begins play with level 1 powers only.
...Completely wrong:


Maximum Power Level Known:
A psion begins play with the ability to learn 1st-level powers. As he attains higher levels, a psion may gain the ability to master more complex powers. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm)

Maximum Power Level Known:
A psychic warrior begins play with the ability to learn 1st-level powers. As he attains higher levels, he may gain the ability to master more complex powers. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm)

Maximum Power Level Known:
A wilder begins play with the ability to learn 1st-level powers. As she attains higher levels, she may gain the ability to master more complex powers. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/wilder.htm)

Check the links, the tables make it totally unambiguous what "more complex powers" at "higher levels" means. Divine Mind is even less ambiguous by giving examples:


Maximum Power Level Known:
A divine mind begins play without the ability to learn powers. At 5th level, he gains the ability to learn 1st-level powers, As he attains higher levels, he gains the ability to master more complex powers—for example, an 8th-level divine mind can learn powers of 2nd level or lower, an 11th-level divine mind can learn powers of 3rd level or lower, and so on.

Ardent is the only Psionic class without this text, or the column setting the "higher levels" limits. It's also the only one without the following text, using Divine Mind again because same access mechanic and book:


A divine mind can manifest any power he knows that has a power point cost equal to or lower than his manifester level.

How many ways do I have to show you other Psionic classes being written differently for you to understand that is in fact the case, and thus it is a strange conclusion for the Ardent to work exactly the same way?


Of course I don't think it possible because there is an unwritten rule that spellcasting equivalents follow the rule that the ability to cast or know level equivalent stuff is based on class level as is declared for spellcasting in the PHB.
Again, your interpretation is relying on more inferences than the alternative. You are literally saying there is an "unwritten rule" that other mechanics are beholden to the text of spellcasting when the entire point of Psionics is that it doesn't work like spellcasting.


So when a class that was stated by the author to have mistakenly left out the maximum power level known ability is different, it sparks a lot of interpretive discussion about what things mean outside of the context of the rule structure it's actually rooted in.
How, exactly, do you leave out the column, then not have it in the text, then actively alter the text in Powers Known, all "mistakenly"? Do you actually have a source on the author explaining this that gives a reason why it is not merely missing parts, but specifically refers to different mechanics?

[Darg]

Firstly, the others do have a declared limit by having a "Maximum Power Level known" column, the entire reason for this arguement existing is that the Ardent is the only Psionic class that doesn't do it that way, instead defining it by PP inside the Powers Known text instead of defining the augmentation limit by Manifester Level. The Divine Mind uses the same access mechanic in the same book yet uses the standard "Powers Known/Maximum Power Level known" table layout.

You keep mentioning augmentation, but none of the classes mention augmentation in their class description...

As such all psionic classes are bound to the manifester level = maximum pp they can spend on one manifestation rule.


...Completely wrong:

Check the links, the tables make it totally unambiguous what "more complex powers" at "higher levels" means. Divine Mind is even less ambiguous by giving examples:

You just proved my point. It does not define what it means and relies solely on inference from the table's sequence of numbers to understand. Even then it doesn't say you can't learn from other sources, beyond class levels, higher level powers than you'd normally be able to manifest. After all it says your ability to manifest powers is directly tied to your manifester level, not class level.


Ardent is the only Psionic class without this text, or the column setting the "higher levels" limits. It's also the only one without the following text, using Divine Mind again because same access mechanic and book:



How many ways do I have to show you other Psionic classes being written differently for you to understand that is in fact the case, and thus it is a strange conclusion for the Ardent to work exactly the same way?

I just showed you how. You rely on preconceived notions for how something works. You just now quoted the text that says you can manifest powers above your level if your manifester level is high enough. Psychic chirurgy works if you can manifest the higher level power.


Again, your interpretation is relying on more inferences than the alternative. You are literally saying there is an "unwritten rule" that other mechanics are beholden to the text of spellcasting when the entire point of Psionics is that it doesn't work like spellcasting.

It's common understanding. The psionic rules, unlike the spellcasting rules, don't directly state that class levels directly correlate to the ability to manifest higher level powers. The only source that says it is actually in the ardent description stating that the ardent can't learn higher level powers than their class level allows.


How, exactly, do you leave out the column, then not have it in the text, then actively alter the text in Powers Known, all "mistakenly"? Do you actually have a source on the author explaining this that gives a reason why it is not merely missing parts, but specifically refers to different mechanics?

It'd be really easy if they used a template and connected abilities with specific table functions. It's completely possible to have everything put together completely and a simple error easily makes both the ability and table column not show. I've had it happen myself in a different context.

Sadly the aging internet has swallowed up the author's words, however there are several mentions of it up in the links martixy provided.

[Morphic tide]

You keep mentioning augmentation, but none of the classes mention augmentation in their class description...

As such all psionic classes are bound to the manifester level = maximum pp they can spend on one manifestation rule.
The point being made here is that every single other Manifester has the two variables be independent, where the Ardent does not. Other Manifesters do not define the limit on knowing the Power under the "Powers Known" heading, only the limit on Manifesting.


You just proved my point. It does not define what it means and relies solely on inference from the table's sequence of numbers to understand. Even then it doesn't say you can't learn from other sources, beyond class levels, higher level powers than you'd normally be able to manifest. After all it says your ability to manifest powers is directly tied to your manifester level, not class level.
What else could "more complex" mean beyond "higher level", as described by the column literally named "Maximum Power Level known" of the class table? And Divine Mind's instance actually gives an explicit example, for absolutely zero inference necessary, whereas spellcasting just says "they need to be high enough level" with nothing defining that directly.


I just showed you how. You rely on preconceived notions for how something works. You just now quoted the text that says you can manifest powers above your level if your manifester level is high enough. Psychic chirurgy works if you can manifest the higher level power.
The Divine Mind's text is specific about Manifesting "any Power [you] know", meaning that it applies after "Maximum Power Level known" because you need to learn it before the ML check for PP. This is why I consider it to only define the Augmentation limit because it's expressly irrelevant to "knowing" the Power initially.


It's common understanding. The psionic rules, unlike the spellcasting rules, don't directly state that class levels directly correlate to the ability to manifest higher level powers. The only source that says it is actually in the ardent description stating that the ardent can't learn higher level powers than their class level allows.
The Psionic "source rules" do not define it like the Magic "source rules" do, because this is done by the classes very explicitly. And again, Ardent's mechanic makes absolutely no mention of Power Level, it only mentions a PP limit exactly where other Psionic classes use "Manifester Level". Which is a term wholly absent in the Ardent's class features.


It'd be really easy if they used a template and connected abilities with specific table functions. It's completely possible to have everything put together completely and a simple error easily makes both the ability and table column not show. I've had it happen myself in a different context.

Sadly the aging internet has swallowed up the author's words, however there are several mentions of it up in the links martixy provided.
There are alterations to the text seen in not a single other Psionic class. It is not just "missing", it is actively different. To rub in the point, I'll quote the entire "Powers Known" section of the Divine Mind and Ardent side-by-side:


A divine mind begins play without knowing any powers. Beginning at 5th level, he learns one divine mind power of the player's choice. As he goes up in level, he continues to unlock knowledge of new powers as shown on the divine mind class table. Choose the power known from the list of powers belonging to the character's chosen mantle. At each additional level, a divine mind gains one additional power (if available) from his chosen mantles.

A divine mind's manifester level is equal to his class level minus 4. For example, a 10th-level divine mind is a 6th-level manifester. A divine mind can manifest any power he knows that has a power point cost equal to or lower than his manifester level.

A divine mind simply knows his powers; they are ingrained in his mind. He does not need to prepare them (in the way that some spellcasters prepare their spells), though he must get a good night's sleep each day to regain all his spent power points.

The Difficulty Class for saving throws against divine mind powers is 10 + the power's level + the divine mind's Wis modifier. For example, the saving throw against a 2nd-level power has a DC of 12 + Wis modifier.


An ardent begins play knowing two of the first powers available to her based on her choice of mantles. Each mantle features at least one power or ability with a cost of 1 power point. An ardent selects two of these powers from her two known mantles at 1st level.

At each additional level, an ardent learns one new power from her available mantles. She must be able to manifest the new power at the level at which she learns it, however. For example, an ardent who attains 5th level can learn any power from one of her mantles that costs 5 power points or less to manifest; she cannot learn a power from a mantle that costs more than 5 power points to manifest until she attains a level capable of manifesting a power with that cost.

To learn or manifest a power, an ardent must have a Wisdom score of at least 10 + the power's level. For example, an ardent with a Wisdom score of 13 can manifest powers of 3rd level or lower.

The total number of powers an ardent can manifest in a day is limited only by her daily power points. In other words, an 9th-level ardent (with a total of 72 power points, not including bonus power points for a high Wisdom score) could manifest a power costing 1 power point seventy-two times in one day, a power costing 9 power points eight times in one day, or any combination of power point costs that does not exceed 72 power points in total.

An ardent simply knows her powers; they are ingrained in her mind. She does not need to prepare them (in the way that some spellcasters prepare their spells), though she must get a good night's sleep each day to regain all her spent power points.

The Difficulty Class for saving throws against ardent powers is 10 + the power's level + the ardent's Wis modifier. For example, the saving throw against a 6th-level power has a DC of 16 + Wis modifier.

The italicized sections appear to be direct equivalents, yet have several obvious differences. Ardent does not refer to "Power Level" in relation to knowing a power at all, instead placing a PP limit exactly where the ML-based one for Manifesting a Power is on the Divine Mind. Somebody, at some point, deliberately changed the Ardent away from "Maximum Power Level known" by adding the PP-based definition to "Powers Known". No other explanation makes any sense, because this is replacement rather than absence.

[Darg]

The point being made here is that every single other Manifester has the two variables be independent, where the Ardent does not. Other Manifesters do not define the limit on knowing the Power under the "Powers Known" heading, only the limit on Manifesting.

What else could "more complex" mean beyond "higher level", as described by the column literally named "Maximum Power Level known" of the class table? And Divine Mind's instance actually gives an explicit example, for absolutely zero inference necessary, whereas spellcasting just says "they need to be high enough level" with nothing defining that directly.

The Divine Mind's text is specific about Manifesting "any Power [you] know", meaning that it applies after "Maximum Power Level known" because you need to learn it before the ML check for PP. This is why I consider it to only define the Augmentation limit because it's expressly irrelevant to "knowing" the Power initially.

The Psionic "source rules" do not define it like the Magic "source rules" do, because this is done by the classes very explicitly. And again, Ardent's mechanic makes absolutely no mention of Power Level, it only mentions a PP limit exactly where other Psionic classes use "Manifester Level". Which is a term wholly absent in the Ardent's class features.

There are alterations to the text seen in not a single other Psionic class. It is not just "missing", it is actively different. To rub in the point, I'll quote the entire "Powers Known" section of the Divine Mind and Ardent side-by-side:

The italicized sections appear to be direct equivalents, yet have several obvious differences. Ardent does not refer to "Power Level" in relation to knowing a power at all, instead placing a PP limit exactly where the ML-based one for Manifesting a Power is on the Divine Mind. Somebody, at some point, deliberately changed the Ardent away from "Maximum Power Level known" by adding the PP-based definition to "Powers Known". No other explanation makes any sense, because this is replacement rather than absence.

One problem with your theory. The text defining that manifester level grants the ability to manifest powers "equal to or lower than his manifester level" is a feature in each class description. Ardent flat out does not have that text. You're assumption that ardent has it by default is wrong. Instead it gives an example that tells you exactly how it works: pp cost is tied to power level and the ability to manifest a power level is tied to level.

There isn't much left to discuss on this matter. "level" doesn't mean anything to you except what you want it to mean. That's fine. We just aren't going to agree.

[martixy]

manifest powers "equal to or lower than his manifester level"
"powers" is not a quantity of anything. You just said "apple equal to or lower than 20".


pp cost is tied to power level
This is flat out wrong. Or, more charitably, incomplete.

There are two instances where pp cost deviates from power level. Or more strictly, because I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here, from the normal power level <-> pp cost map / function (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Function_(mathematics)).
Those would be augmentations, pp cost reducers.

[Morphic tide]

One problem with your theory. The text defining that manifester level grants the ability to manifest powers "equal to or lower than his manifester level" is a feature in each class description. Ardent flat out does not have that text. You're assumption that ardent has it by default is wrong.
...You have repeated the core of the argument I have been making that Ardent early access can work. If the ardent lacks the text, this definition is left to the gate for learning Powers. Which results in either a bundle of ML boosters doing nothing because the Ardent locks it to class level instead of Manifester level, or the Ardent using ML boosters for early access because its Power acquisition is ML gated.


Instead it gives an example that tells you exactly how it works: pp cost is tied to power level and the ability to manifest a power level is tied to level.
Ardent's example only mentions PP, it does not mention power level. If a 3rd-level Power costing 2 PP existed on a Mantle for some reason, a 2nd-level Ardent could learn it three levels before a Psion with that Mantle could. If a 2nd-level Power costing 4pp existed for Wilder but not Psion and was put on a Mantle, then both Ardent and Wilder would learn it at 4th level despite there being 2nd-level Powers an Ardent can learn at 3rd.


There isn't much left to discuss on this matter. "level" doesn't mean anything to you except what you want it to mean. That's fine. We just aren't going to agree.
To quote myself, "My position is simply that it can be read this way because the wording does not contradict such an interpretation". This is about the possible, not the reasonable or the wanted. How much do I have to signpost that I'm talking willfully absurd Theoretical Optimization to get across that "reasonable inference" and "convention" is to be left at the door if there is any grounds for another option?

Let me show you the rule I've been waiting for you to reference, now that you've attempted to claim the exact opposite in your counter-argument:


Power Point Limit
Some powers allow you to spend more than their base cost to achieve an improved effect, or augment the power. The maximum number of points you can spend on a power (for any reason) is equal to your manifester level.

The Ardent does have the ML-based PP limit by default, because it's described in the general Power rules, and thus the "pick a dysfunction" I'd claimed several times to rub in the basis of the general consensus that Ardent early access is a thing is in fact contradicted. But because you just kept hammering the same disagreement over and over again instead of checking relevant rules to rule out the intentionally-counter-RAI interpretation, you end up going the exact opposite way from the inarguable resolution.

Funnily enough, there is a small table that gives a PP-to-Power-Level relation, but because PP is listed separately (likely for reminder purposes) it's essentially useless as any Power that doesn't follow it overrules that table.

[Darg]

"powers" is not a quantity of anything. You just said "apple equal to or lower than 20".

I wrote it wrong, not that what was said is wrong.


This is flat out wrong. Or, more charitably, incomplete.

There are two instances where pp cost deviates from power level. Or more strictly, because I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here, from the normal power level <-> pp cost map / function (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Function_(mathematics)).
Those would be augmentations, pp cost reducers.

You're taking it out of context of the ardent. The description from ardent says 5th level can learn powers that cost 5 or less and cannot learn a power that costs more until they gain more levels. Augmentations and pp cost reducers cannot reduce what you don't have yet so they cannot change what you learn.


...You have repeated the core of the argument I have been making that Ardent early access can work. If the ardent lacks the text, this definition is left to the gate for learning Powers. Which results in either a bundle of ML boosters doing nothing because the Ardent locks it to class level instead of Manifester level, or the Ardent using ML boosters for early access because its Power acquisition is ML gated.

You're making a presumption just as you claim I have. Locking the ability to LEARN power levels to class level isn't new. Manifester levels work as they always have as the example shows. The 5th level ardent can learn a 3rd level power, thus must by elimination have the ability to manifest a power with a cost of 5.


Ardent's example only mentions PP, it does not mention power level. If a 3rd-level Power costing 2 PP existed on a Mantle for some reason, a 2nd-level Ardent could learn it three levels before a Psion with that Mantle could. If a 2nd-level Power costing 4pp existed for Wilder but not Psion and was put on a Mantle, then both Ardent and Wilder would learn it at 4th level despite there being 2nd-level Powers an Ardent can learn at 3rd.

Except there is one flaw with your argument, those don't exist. There is a nice little table saying that a power's cost is determined by its level and that the cost noted in the power description is just for easy reference (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#powerPoints) right above the power point limit quote.


To quote myself, "My position is simply that it can be read this way because the wording does not contradict such an interpretation". This is about the possible, not the reasonable or the wanted. How much do I have to signpost that I'm talking willfully absurd Theoretical Optimization to get across that "reasonable inference" and "convention" is to be left at the door if there is any grounds for another option?

Again, manifester level has nothing to do with learning higher level powers, especially for ardent. The description says nothing about manifester levels being determinate of learning powers, just class levels. Leaving an actual definitive example of how it works at the door to just be absurd is not theoretical, it's homebrew. It's just not possible for manifester level to dictate maximimum power levels known because there is nothing that gives it permission to.


Let me show you the rule I've been waiting for you to reference, now that you've attempted to claim the exact opposite in your counter-argument:

The Ardent does have the ML-based PP limit by default, because it's described in the general Power rules, and thus the "pick a dysfunction" I'd claimed several times to rub in the basis of the general consensus that Ardent early access is a thing is in fact contradicted. But because you just kept hammering the same disagreement over and over again instead of checking relevant rules to rule out the intentionally-counter-RAI interpretation, you end up going the exact opposite way from the inarguable resolution.

Funnily enough, there is a small table that gives a PP-to-Power-Level relation, but because PP is listed separately (likely for reminder purposes) it's essentially useless as any Power that doesn't follow it overrules that table.

Any powers that come to mind that flout those rules? I'm really curious because the text describing the table state it's the definitive source for power cost.

As for the power point limit, you aren't connecting the dots as to what it has to do with anything. How does it concern the ardent learning powers?