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View Full Version : What's with Sorcerer's being related to everything?



Zeful
2007-12-02, 09:51 PM
A lot of people seem to believe that Sorcerers are related to some powerful outsider/dragon/ooze/etc. Why is that? It says in the PHb that some Sorcerers claim a relation to dragons and that it could very well be a boast of sorcerers or rumors of those envious (or fearful) of the sorcerer's talents. And yes Dragons have innate sorcerer spellcasting as they grow up. How ever why do items/feats that remove or bypass the sorcerer limitations (fixed spells known, returning metamagic to 3.0 normal and so on) require some absurd sexual relation with something other than human/elven/normal PHb race. Even the so called ultimate sorcerer 'fix' had this problem, you picked a bloodline at onset but there were no rules for not having a bloodline.

Being very pro-sorc I find that pidgeon-holeing the sorc into being related to a monster is as silly as saying all wizards can only cast evocation and necromancry spells despite there being nearly five other schools of magic on the wiz/sorc spell list, or that rangers must be emo Drizzt clones, it doesn't make sense.
Can someone explain to me why all the good sorcerer feats require the character's great-great-great-great-great-grandmother to have been raped by some dragon/celestial/fey/whatever?

Solo
2007-12-02, 09:59 PM
Can someone explain to me why all the good sorcerer feats require the character's great-great-great-great-great-grandmother to have been raped by some dragon/celestial/fey/whatever?

The only good sorcerer feats are metamagic feats, prestige class prerequisites, and other things that make his spellcasting more powerful.

brian c
2007-12-02, 09:59 PM
Well, there has to be a reason that some people have innate connections with magic. Most people can't just start casting spells, they have to learn all about it first, or be granted the power by their gods. The best way to explain why some humans (and elves, and gnomes, etc) have innate magical power is that they have a connection to one of the races (dragons, fey, demons) that all have magical powers.

Kantolin
2007-12-02, 10:02 PM
Well, there has to be a reason that some people have innate connections with magic.

For some reason.

I mean, you've got a world where a bit of study means you can fire lazers from your eyes and turn people into potatoes... but when sorcerors do it, it has to come from somewhere else.

Either way, though, that does seem to be D&D's intent. I usually house rule that away immediately; it's mostly fluff as is, so removing it isn't a big deal.

Zincorium
2007-12-02, 10:04 PM
Because it was a half-arsed fluff attempt on WotC's part to distinguish sorcerors from wizards.

Because other than the casting mechanism and ability stat (which bards use) the sorceror is 90% identical to a wizard. They are squishy arcane casters that blow things up with the exact same spells as they're page-turning counterparts.*

So they threw something in about sorcerors getting their power from being sort of related to something magically powerful, then made everyone that followed stick to the same story.

*As a side note, I generally disallow either wizards or sorcerors in any given game I DM. I don't see the point in having both.

brian c
2007-12-02, 10:07 PM
For some reason.

I mean, you've got a world where a bit of study means you can fire lazers from your eyes and turn people into potatoes... but when sorcerors do it, it has to come from somewhere else.

Either way, though, that does seem to be D&D's intent. I usually house rule that away immediately; it's mostly fluff as is, so removing it isn't a big deal.

D&D distinguishes between learned magic and natural magic. Wizards learn, sorcerers have it naturally. If you don't like that distinction, and if you want everyone to be natural or everyone learning, then you don't need both classes.

holywhippet
2007-12-02, 10:07 PM
Consider that kobolds, a draconic race which has it's origins in the distant past from dragons, have a preferred class of sorcerer. That's a fairly blatent hint that dragon blood = sorcerous potential.

From a nuts and bolts point of view, you kind of need something to explain how some people just get magical powers out of nowhere. They don't even need to glance at a spellbook. Heck, they don't even need to practice their magic. They could spend a week shooting goblins with crossbow bolts and suddenly they can cast more spells.

Mewtarthio
2007-12-02, 10:10 PM
D&D distinguishes between learned magic and natural magic. Wizards learn, sorcerers have it naturally.

And what about Bards?

Dark Knight Renee
2007-12-02, 10:12 PM
The way I see it, WotC went slightly overboard with the sorcerer stereotype they established and apparently forgot that it was only a stereotype. I like to think, however, that all those feats involving bizarre heritage indicate that bizarre heritage can give a sorcerer stronger (kinda-sorta) powers than are available to one without. Or something along those lines.

brian c
2007-12-02, 10:15 PM
And what about Bards?

Bards suck.

bugsysservant
2007-12-02, 10:23 PM
What angers me is that the heritedge feats are limited to sorcerors. Its bad enough that to cast a spell naturally you have to be descended from dracophiles (or demonophiles, or whatever), but if you are descended from them, YOU ARE AUTOMATICALLY A SORCEROR? Here you have kobolds, little lizard like dragon spawn running around, with sorceror as only a favored class, but a human who is 1/100th dragon has to be a sorceror? And sorcerors aren't all about casting spells, they're also about lacking physical toughness, ergo the d4 hit die. Yet dragons are all about physical toughness. So even though you're descended from a creature many times stronger than the average human, and you spend you're youth training in the general's army, you're going to have as many hitpoints as the little bookworm who spent his childhood using his inhaler so the dust from the musty tomes doesn't trigger an asthma attack? Sometimes I just hate WoTC. :smallannoyed:

Zeful
2007-12-02, 10:24 PM
Consider that kobolds, a draconic race which has it's origins in the distant past from dragons, have a preferred class of sorcerer. That's a fairly blatent hint that dragon blood = sorcerous potential.

From a nuts and bolts point of view, you kind of need something to explain how some people just get magical powers out of nowhere. They don't even need to glance at a spellbook. Heck, they don't even need to practice their magic. They could spend a week shooting goblins with crossbow bolts and suddenly they can cast more spells.

A lot of the fluff of the sorcerer class seems to indicate that their casting need not come from dragons or etc. but all the supliments seem to ignore that fact. So in order to be an effective sorcerer I must be the great-to-the-umpteeth-power grandson of a dragon/fey/ooze/etc. and embrace my heritage (Take heritage and bloodline feats) or forever cast all metamagics as full-round actions?

It's pidgeon-holeing Sorcerer characters in a way that the other classes don't have, just to pidgeon-hole them.

de-trick
2007-12-02, 10:25 PM
so in character you know where there powers come from

clerics = gods(cause)
druid = nature
bards = music
paladin = god
ranger = nature
wizard = spellbook(study)
sorcerer = blood(heritage)

Solo
2007-12-02, 10:28 PM
A lot of the fluff of the sorcerer class seems to indicate that their casting need not come from dragons or etc. but all the supliments seem to ignore that fact. So in order to be an effective sorcerer I must be the great-to-the-umpteeth-power grandson of a dragon/fey/ooze/etc. and embrace my heritage (Take heritage and bloodline feats) or forever cast all metamagics as full-round actions?

It's pidgeon-holeing Sorcerer characters in a way that the other classes don't have, just to pidgeon-hole them.

For the last time, heritage and bloodline feats suck compared to feats that boost your spellcasting potential like metamagic feats.

You don't build an effective sorcerer with bloodline feats, you just build a flavorful sorcerer.

Mewtarthio
2007-12-02, 10:31 PM
bards = music

How in the name of Pelor do you get magical power from music?

Solo
2007-12-02, 10:33 PM
How in the name of Pelor do you get magical power from music?

That's a very good question.

To answer it,
Let's start at the very beginning,
A very good place to start...

bugsysservant
2007-12-02, 10:33 PM
How in the name of Pelor do you get magical power from music?

:smallsigh: By taking levels in bard. DUH!

tyckspoon
2007-12-02, 10:35 PM
What angers me is that the heritedge feats are limited to sorcerors. Its bad enough that to cast a spell naturally you have to be descended from dracophiles (or demonophiles, or whatever), but if you are descended from them, YOU ARE AUTOMATICALLY A SORCEROR? Here you have kobolds, little lizard like dragon spawn running around, with sorceror as only a favored class, but a human who is 1/100th dragon has to be a sorceror? And sorcerors aren't all about casting spells, they're also about lacking physical toughness, ergo the d4 hit die. Yet dragons are all about physical toughness. So even though you're descended from a creature many times stronger than the average human, and you spend you're youth training in the general's army, you're going to have as many hitpoints as the little bookworm who spent his childhood using his inhaler so the dust from the musty tomes doesn't trigger an asthma attack? Sometimes I just hate WoTC. :smallannoyed:

Er..what? You are entirely free to choose *not* to take levels in sorcerer, you know.. no matter how much 'dragon blood' the character has, it has no mechanical effects unless the character is built with classes, races, and feats that make it have a mechanical effect.

de-trick
2007-12-02, 10:36 PM
The power of the rhythm, beat, and all the bardness goodness

Zeful
2007-12-02, 10:37 PM
Before the PHbII came out they needed a feat to even use metamagic effectivally. The Draginomicon (or Races of Dragons) had a feat that would return 'normal' metamagic fuctions but you needed to have the Dragon Heritage feat from that book. You might as well just 'embrace' your dragonness so that you canget full use out of one silly feat.

Chronos
2007-12-02, 10:41 PM
How in the name of Pelor do you get magical power from music?If we knew that, we'd all be bards, now wouldn't we?

bugsysservant
2007-12-02, 10:53 PM
Er..what? You are entirely free to choose *not* to take levels in sorcerer, you know.. no matter how much 'dragon blood' the character has, it has no mechanical effects unless the character is built with classes, races, and feats that make it have a mechanical effect.

The feat is "draconic heritage" not "draconic heritage which emerges over the course of years by shooting lasers from my eyes and meditating and whatnot." To be a descendent of dragons, you take the feat, just like to have a character that jumps far, you boost jump. Its just one more example of a feat/class/race/alignment shoe horning the character into idiotic fluff. And to take the feat, you have to be a sorceror.

This is magnified by the fluff that sorcerors just sort of happen, manifesting their powers automatically. So, if I spent the years living in the forest, communing with nature, and learning the way of the [insert animal or plant here] from a mentor druid, I can never be a druid, I'm forced to be physically weaker, ignorant of the weapons he showed me, and unable to channel nature's power. Unless I kill random monsters for a while. Because killing things works like that.

brian c
2007-12-02, 10:54 PM
If we knew that, we'd all be bards, now wouldn't we?

I still wouldn't be.

Kantolin
2007-12-02, 11:01 PM
D&D distinguishes between learned magic and natural magic. Wizards learn, sorcerers have it naturally.

That again doesn't quite fit. Some people have to go study forever to learn to play the flute. Other people just kind of do it.

Your intrinsic talents need not come from great-great-grandma Bessie thinking dragons are cute.

tyckspoon
2007-12-02, 11:03 PM
The feat is "draconic heritage" not "draconic heritage which emerges over the course of years by shooting lasers from my eyes and meditating and whatnot." To be a descendent of dragons, you take the feat, just like to have a character that jumps far, you boost jump. Its just one more example of a feat/class/race/alignment shoe horning the character into idiotic fluff. And to take the feat, you have to be a sorceror.

This is magnified by the fluff that sorcerers just sort of happen, manifesting their powers automatically. So, if I spent the years living in the forest, communing with nature, and learning the way of the [insert animal or plant here] from a mentor druid, I can never be a druid, I'm forced to be physically weaker, ignorant of the weapons he showed me, and unable to channel nature's power. Unless I kill random monsters for a while. Because killing things works like that.

I have no idea what the hell you're talking about. What exactly is preventing you from taking a level of Druid in keeping with that training? Or is it that you are somehow convinced that the only possible way to reflect a draconic heritage is to take the sorcerous heritage feat for dragons, one of a number of similar feats that are, yes, intended to be used by sorcerers and also come in outsider, fey, elemental, and even aberrant flavors?

Behold_the_Void
2007-12-02, 11:08 PM
The power of the rhythm, beat, and all the bardness goodness

Damn straight.

Osu! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50167)

Nattypat
2007-12-02, 11:10 PM
This is magnified by the fluff that sorcerors just sort of happen, manifesting their powers automatically. So, if I spent the years living in the forest, communing with nature, and learning the way of the [insert animal or plant here] from a mentor druid, I can never be a druid, I'm forced to be physically weaker, ignorant of the weapons he showed me, and unable to channel nature's power. Unless I kill random monsters for a while. Because killing things works like that.

Thats not true, eventually you'd get enough Role-Playing XP. :smallsmile:

MCerberus
2007-12-02, 11:32 PM
In case anyone is interested I've been mulling over a few alternative "how he got his powers" thoughts for sorcs (and if you go by PhB the sorcs could just be pretending to have powers via heritage).

X-man/What the hell I have magic - They're just pretty much freaks. The ability to cast magic kind of came out of left field. Maybe they're just lucky or unlucky, maybe they were born under the right stars. Whatever the case, they have magic and no idea where they got it.

Chosen one - The powers that be gifted the person with magic powers, or perhaps some crazy cult did it to bring about the end of the world. If it weren't for them being singled out by someone or something, they would have had normal lives.

"It runs in the family" - That whole dragon thing is just some BS made up to make sorcerers sound better. One of their parents was a sorcerer (maybe both), so now they are. In a world where magic is so pervasive that a drunk wizard can make a freaking Owlbear, who's to say that some series of genes dpesn't make one more sensitive to the ebb and flow of magic?

You too can be a sorcerer - This kind of sorcerer stumbled onto the dirty little secret of the class, you don't need to be born a sorcerer. They have opened their mind to new ways of thinking of magic and are slowly learning to bend reality through their will.

AstralFire
2007-12-02, 11:39 PM
My sorcerers usually are of that last kind, MCerberus.

SadisticFishing
2007-12-02, 11:48 PM
Not all sorcerors have draconic/outsider/wtv blood, just most.

Jerthanis
2007-12-03, 12:04 AM
How in the name of Pelor do you get magical power from music?

Because, like Magic, Music is based on very specific rules that take years of training to fully understand, based on a mathematical relationship between each aspect. Magic is the physics of a fantasy world... the science by which the people of the world understand how the world around them functions. The rules of drama, metaphor, literary worth, and human convention ALSO dictates how the worlds in fantasy tales work... so a precise understanding and execution of Music, with full understanding of the metaphor AND the precise magical mathematical relationships can produce magical effects.

Seriously, it makes more sense than you'd give it credit.


The feat is "draconic heritage" not "draconic heritage which emerges over the course of years by shooting lasers from my eyes and meditating and whatnot." To be a descendent of dragons, you take the feat, just like to have a character that jumps far, you boost jump. Its just one more example of a feat/class/race/alignment shoe horning the character into idiotic fluff. And to take the feat, you have to be a sorceror.

This is magnified by the fluff that sorcerors just sort of happen, manifesting their powers automatically. So, if I spent the years living in the forest, communing with nature, and learning the way of the [insert animal or plant here] from a mentor druid, I can never be a druid, I'm forced to be physically weaker, ignorant of the weapons he showed me, and unable to channel nature's power. Unless I kill random monsters for a while. Because killing things works like that.

Which explains why Half-Dragons must be sorcerers. Being descended from Dragons automatically means you must take levels in Sorcerer and nothing else after all.

It's not like you could just decide whether your character is descended from dragons or not, that's just silly... and not supported by the RAW, and is thus, impossible under any circumstances. :smalltongue:

Starsinger
2007-12-03, 12:07 AM
See.. WotC has a hard time distinguishing Sorcerers and Wizards.. I mean not only is the description of Sorcerer WotC repeating the phrase "Unlike Wizards" over and over.. But they have the same BAB, same Spell List, same Hit Die, same armor proficiency, same unique to them (in Core anyways) class feature (familiars), and generally same prestige class options (although there are a few sorcerer only and wizard only arcane prestige classes).

Then WotC realized that Sorcerers don't take metamagic feats as often as wizards for two reasons, one being that Wizards are somehow inferior to Sorcerers and deserve free metamagic feats. And the other being that Sorcerous metamagic takes a full round to pull off (meaning no sudden spell!).

So looking for ways to make Sorcerers more attractive, WotC re-read their description and stumbled upon the line "Some sorcerers claim their power comes from being descended from dragons". And Bam! the Dragon Disciple was born. And noone took it.. because it's not for casters. And so, puzzled and confused, they then proceeded to beat the "Sorcerer = Dragon" connection over and over and over again. And that's where heritage feats come from. Because WotC likes to beat dead horses (or dragons).

MCerberus
2007-12-03, 12:10 AM
Because WotC likes to beat dead horses (or dragons).

and amazingly the fluff bat hits the hardest. Luckily with a little bit of ignoring, a PhBII and a little bit of creativity your sorcerer doesn't have to be that way.

Dervag
2007-12-03, 12:13 AM
Can someone explain to me why all the good sorcerer feats require the character's great-great-great-great-great-grandmother to have been raped by some dragon/celestial/fey/whatever?It's kind of dumb; I think what happened is that Wizards let the flavor run away with them. Somebody stuck in a throwaway line about 'the blood of dragons' in the original Player's Handbook and the next thing you know every author was taking that as the canonical origin for sorcerors (and therefore the one that should be played up as a good tie between flavor and mechanics).

Either that or someone at Wizards... likes... humanoid nonhumans. A lot.

On a side note, many such beings are naturally of humanoid form, or capable of shapechanging into such a form, and are naturally charismatic. Who says it wasn't consensual?

Mephisto
2007-12-03, 12:51 AM
The power of the rhythm, beat, and all the bardness goodness

So bardic magic runs on funk power?

Makes sense.

Ganurath
2007-12-03, 01:24 AM
You too can be a sorcerer - This kind of sorcerer stumbled onto the dirty little secret of the class, you don't need to be born a sorcerer. They have opened their mind to new ways of thinking of magic and are slowly learning to bend reality through their will.The secret, of course, being that all planes of existence are shapable by powerful minds to a limited degree, a sort of lesser form of "deific morphic," and the sorceror is tapping into every sentient's capacity to tell reality to sit down and shut up. Wizards, on the other hand, use book learning as a placebo for this.

Use the above for a rational explanation for how someone can multiclass into the sorceror class rather than just being repressed or a late bloomer.

holywhippet
2007-12-03, 05:38 PM
It should be noted that the Bard is technically considered to be dragon heritage as well. Take a look at the Dragon Disciple class: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dragonDisciple.htm

The main limitation is being able to cast arcane spells without preperation - both the sorcerer and the bard can do this.

The earlier editions of bard just learned an assortment of arcane spells like a wizard as part of their being a jack of all trades.

John Campbell
2007-12-03, 06:16 PM
Consider that kobolds, a draconic race which has it's origins in the distant past from dragons, have a preferred class of sorcerer. That's a fairly blatent hint that dragon blood = sorcerous potential.
Except that until that before they invented all this stupidity with 3rd edition...

1) Kobolds weren't related to dragons.
2) Kobolds had no more magical talent than any other run-of-the-mill low-HD humanoid monster (that is, bloody near none).
3) Despite having lots of dragons around, there weren't any sorcerers.


From a nuts and bolts point of view, you kind of need something to explain how some people just get magical powers out of nowhere.
No, you really don't. It's a class feature. You get it for taking levels in the class, whatever that means in-game. Just like when you take a level in Barbarian, you can suddenly run faster, even though you don't suddenly have a retroactive upbringing that you spent running across the plains or whatever.

And inventing a blood explanation for it is particularly silly, because anyone can take sorcerer levels. Does that mean that everyone has dragon blood? If so, how is it special?


They don't even need to glance at a spellbook. Heck, they don't even need to practice their magic. They could spend a week shooting goblins with crossbow bolts and suddenly they can cast more spells.
This is a problem inherent in the D&D class/level/XP system, and not in any way limited to sorcerers.

Hell, my current PC's first level was in Fighter, and after a few sessions of whacking things with a greataxe, all of a sudden -DING- I had a spellbook and knew how to cast a bunch of spells. And my improvement in casting spells is only indirectly related to how much practice I give it. All that matters is how many things I kill. (Or my friends kill while I'm standing near them!) It doesn't make any difference at all whether I do it with my spells or with my axe.

It's always been a problem, but is worse in 3rd than it was in AD&D, particularly 2nd. In the good editions, multiclass characters advanced in all classes simultaneously from the beginning, and had separate XP totals for each class. XP was normally just divided evenly between all classes (with an XP scale that meant that multiclass PCs would generally run all their classes a level or two behind the single-class PCs, enough to be notably weaker than a specialist in its speciality, but without being useless), but the DM had the option of assigning XP unevenly if he felt the multiclass PC hadn't been working out all of their aspects. There was also a system for giving out XP by class that involved the character having done actual class-appropriate things besides just whacking monsters.

PhallicWarrior
2007-12-03, 06:18 PM
I would just like to point something out that has been bothering me as I read this thread.


A lot of people seem to believe that Sorcerers are related to some powerful outsider/dragon/ooze/etc.

How the heck does that work?!

Solo
2007-12-03, 06:41 PM
I would just like to point something out that has been bothering me as I read this thread.



How the heck does that work?!

It just does ok?


If you really want to know, go to 4 chan. They have some rather interesting pictures there....

Ganurath
2007-12-03, 06:49 PM
I would just like to point something out that has been bothering me as I read this thread.



How the heck does that work?!1. Alienist with a Ring of Energy Immunity (Acid)
2. Oozemasters Gone Wild

KIDS
2007-12-03, 06:49 PM
The Weave, Arcane or however you want to call it, responds to careful probing and decisive command just the same. Someone confident, of sufficient willpower and a strong mind, can gain some of its power. Tapping into the weave is not a function of flesh or blood; we are spiritual creatures, and by realizing that spirituality we can call to the Weave. A sorcerer is a mystic first and foremost.

- something most sorcerers of mine would say.

p.s. I think that whomever wants to pull off that sorcerers are only sorcerers because their ancestor had an affair with a dragon or such is rudely underestimating everyone else's imagination and is being unfair to all other people with good ideas. Humility is valued....

holywhippet
2007-12-03, 09:19 PM
Except that until that before they invented all this stupidity with 3rd edition...

1) Kobolds weren't related to dragons.
2) Kobolds had no more magical talent than any other run-of-the-mill low-HD humanoid monster (that is, bloody near none).
3) Despite having lots of dragons around, there weren't any sorcerers.


Blame Vecna for rewriting the rules. Seriously, don't bring earlier versions into the argument - it's like arguing about Klingons being different in the original star trek and TNG.



This is a problem inherent in the D&D class/level/XP system, and not in any way limited to sorcerers.

Hell, my current PC's first level was in Fighter, and after a few sessions of whacking things with a greataxe, all of a sudden -DING- I had a spellbook and knew how to cast a bunch of spells. And my improvement in casting spells is only indirectly related to how much practice I give it. All that matters is how many things I kill. (Or my friends kill while I'm standing near them!) It doesn't make any difference at all whether I do it with my spells or with my axe.


I think it was a bit more realistic when you had to visit a trainer in order to gain levels. A mage trainer could presumably hand you a beginners spellbook. The spells or axe problem is easily resolved though, it's assumed that while you were idle you were studying your spellbook.

A better example of unusual level gaining could be seen in the old Gold Box series of computer games (Pool of Radiance etc.). Dual class a human, then go and find some treasure. The sheer act of finding enough loot will give you enough experience to level up.

BardicDuelist
2007-12-03, 11:26 PM
I would just like to point something out that has been bothering me as I read this thread.



How the heck does that work?!

A wizard did it. Ironic, eh?

Anyway, weren't sorcerers just created to make it so that the Wizard didn't have a third of the PHB devoted to him? WoTC basically just threw a class to make the game seem less focused on one class. They then just continued this with limited creativity so that CAr wasn't just about wizards (with some cool bard PrCs).

As far as the magic and music thing goes, it makes perfect sense to me. The power of plot influences quite a bit in a fantasy world, and most fantasy worlds that we read about (such as Middle-Earth or Pyridan) have quite a lot of magic revolve around music. There has been a cultural connection for ages.

brian_c: Well I hate ninjas! Although I do wish they got more love in D&D. I mean if my minstril can be so cool, why can't your ninja?

SilverClawShift
2007-12-04, 09:11 AM
How in the name of Pelor do you get magical power from music?


That's a very good question.

To answer it,
Let's start at the very beginning


Because, like Magic, Music is based on very specific rules that take years of training to fully understand, based on a mathematical relationship between each aspect. Magic is the physics of a fantasy world...

Actually, that makes a lot more sense than other arcane casters.

A whole heap of creation myths state that the original beings sang the world into existance. In fact I think that's the official stance in Faerun.
The idea that music is an echoing constant, a backdrop that fits in with and can potentially alter the laws of reality, isn't an uncomfortable fit at all. Combine with the concepts of Truespeaking, that everything in reality can be defined by a divine language... suddenly the idea that the proper vocalizations or rythmic tones from quality instruments could make it rain fire doesn't just seem possible. It seems immpossible for it to be wrong.

Solo
2007-12-04, 09:18 AM
A whole heap of creation myths state that the original beings sang the world into existance. In fact I think that's the official stance in Faerun.

Genesis: The Musical!

Sleet
2007-12-04, 09:46 AM
RE: sorcerers and dragons: The 3.5 edition of Dragonlance deals with sorcerers in considerable detail, and their power has nothing whatsoever to do with dragons. It's a connection to the primal magic of creation, and having the force of will to exert your own power over it to shape it to your desires. Yes, anyone can do it, if they have the will, the desire, and the practice.

Re: Bards, music, and magic: Intently listening to music in the right surroundings can be (not is, but can be) as mind-altering as any illegal substance. As my wife once said after we'd taken in one spectacularly intense performance, "Anyone still in their bodies during that wasn't listening right." Musicians are among the closest this world gets to real mages.

Ganurath
2007-12-04, 02:04 PM
Genesis: The Musical!Where every musician is a Seeker of the Song!

Closet_Skeleton
2007-12-04, 02:34 PM
And what about Bards?

Bards were screwed up by Wizards.

They have Bardic Knowledge, an ability based on them knowing stuff.

They have Charisma based casting, an ability based off them not needing to know stuff.

TSR handled their flavour better with Intelligence based Bards. I know that it's useful mechanicaly that Perform and Spell Casting should have the same related ability score but it makes for fractured fluff.