If you revive a dead fission duplicate, is its duration permanent?

[alexstrasa81]

One of my friends told me if a fission duplicate manifests contingency revivify whose casting time is shortened with linked power and then kills himself, the fission duration ends and the two are permanently severed and when the revivify resurrects the dead fission, he is now a permanent clone of me.

Is this right? I thought it didn't work because you know, no soul no res, but it seems like psionic revivify targets "psyche" not soul and it resurrects the guy before the "psyche" leaves.

He also told me all the other rules still apply. My duplicate can't cast fission while I'm alive, and if I cast fission again the permanent fission would disappear because I can only have one fission in existence and since the rules don't prevent me from casting fission again, only my duplicate, my duplicate would disappear in such a situation.

[Beni-Kujaku]

"All powers affecting a fissioned creature, either the original or the duplicate, end when the fission ends."

Your contingency revivify disappears when the duplicate dies and the fission ends. There's no coming back from the dead.

[alexstrasa81]

"All powers affecting a fissioned creature, either the original or the duplicate, end when the fission ends."

Your contingency revivify disappears when the duplicate dies and the fission ends. There's no coming back from the dead.

Huh. I got two follow up questions.

First, what happens if I just cast psionic revivify myself?

Second, what about linked power? He manifests linked psionic revivify. Then I kill him. Would next round the Linked Power come into effect and bring him back to life? Linked Power doesn't affect anyone until it is cast and it's not a duration thing or something like that.

I'm new to psionics.

[Darg]

Huh. I got two follow up questions.

First, what happens if I just cast psionic revivify myself?

Second, what about linked power? He manifests linked psionic revivify. Then I kill him. Would next round the Linked Power come into effect and bring him back to life? Linked Power doesn't affect anyone until it is cast and it's not a duration thing or something like that.

I'm new to psionics.

If you Revive the duplicate they are no longer killed and so you no longer take the penalties. The duration of the power continues until the duration runs out. It's not a summoning where the power ends immediately when the effect is killed. If they are dead as the duration is up they are no longer a duplicate of you as the effect no longer exists. If they are alive when the duration ends then the power resolves as normal. It can't be abused as the player wants unless you allow it.

Linked Power is "cast" on the first round. It will manifest the power independent of the "caster" on the second round. Its effect is not yet on the target so if the target becomes valid on the second round then it will act as described regardless of the state the caster is in.

[alexstrasa81]

If you Revive the duplicate they are no longer killed and so you no longer take the penalties. The duration of the power continues until the duration runs out. It's not a summoning where the power ends immediately when the effect is killed. If they are dead as the duration is up they are no longer a duplicate of you as the effect no longer exists. If they are alive when the duration ends then the power resolves as normal. It can't be abused as the player wants unless you allow it.

Linked Power is "cast" on the first round. It will manifest the power independent of the "caster" on the second round. Its effect is not yet on the target so if the target becomes valid on the second round then it will act as described regardless of the state the caster is in.

If you manifest psionic revivify after the duration lapses, what happens? Your duplicate doesn't disappear when durations lapse. They rejoin. But if duration lapses while they're dead, what happens? Does his psyche wink out and be unavailable for revivify? Or since rejoining is the sole form of psyche destruction, you get a permanent fission?

[tyckspoon]

If you manifest psionic revivify after the duration lapses, what happens? Your duplicate doesn't disappear when durations lapse. They rejoin. But if duration lapses while they're dead, what happens? Does his psyche wink out and be unavailable for revivify? Or since rejoining is the sole form of psyche destruction, you get a permanent fission?

My ruling and interpretation would be that there is no separate soul or 'psyche' (..you are attaching way more relevance to the game using this term than it justifies, incidentally, there is no mechanical distinction actually being made here) to revive, because the Fission effect is ended. The duplicate is no longer 'you', because that's a thing Fission was doing. It's just a dead body that looks like you - it doesn't have a separate existence as an individual that can be raised. You could potentially make an undead of it, use it as bits for a flesh golem, Animate Object it, bind a demon into it, or whatever other usages you may find for a corpse.. but you can't raise it back to life as a copy of you, there's no 'you' available to attach to it.

[alexstrasa81]

My ruling and interpretation would be that there is no separate soul or 'psyche' (..you are attaching way more relevance to the game using this term than it justifies, incidentally, there is no mechanical distinction actually being made here) to revive, because the Fission effect is ended. The duplicate is no longer 'you', because that's a thing Fission was doing. It's just a dead body that looks like you - it doesn't have a separate existence as an individual that can be raised. You could potentially make an undead of it, use it as bits for a flesh golem, Animate Object it, bind a demon into it, or whatever other usages you may find for a corpse.. but you can't raise it back to life as a copy of you, there's no 'you' available to attach to it.

I used psyche instead of soul because thats the actual word used in the spell description and its dubious whether fissions and schisms have souls in the first place.

I think unless you have an actual source for soul rules for fissions and schisms you should keep it out of the discussion because it'll just be you and me making up baseless stuff to argue what we want.

Simulacrum is another souless creature that is indistinguishable from the real thing. Souless copies is a thing in d&d so in my opinion trying to say a copies have soul transfer and such is baseless.

[Crake]

Simulacrum is another souless creature that is indistinguishable from the real thing.

Simulacrum is very much distinguishable from the real thing. You need to do a disguise check to make it even passable, let alone stand up to close scrutiny, and in many ways simulacrums function more like constructs than living beings, they don't recover damage naturally and need to be repaired.

They are also entirely subservient and have no will of their own, that's quite a distinguishing feature.

[alexstrasa81]

rpg stack exchange answered this question within the hour with only rules and no house rules trying to be passed of as actual rules anywhere.

The answer is yes. When fission dies no rejoining occurs and you get a negative level. Resurrecting the fission doesn't undo this. The rules are clear, when it dies no rejoining occurs. Current status of fission is irrelevant. It died so no rejoining occurs.

So Darg is completely wrong. Negative level is not undone.

Not that it matters since I'm not going psion. Anyways good bye.

[Darg]

Calling me wrong is a little harsh here. The thing about the rules is that there can be more than one interpretation in many cases. As is mentioned the duplicate doesn't simply disappear when it dies. Dead is a condition removed when revived. Therefore if you Revive the duplicate before the duration runs out it is no longer dead or "killed".

But hey, we all have our opinions and stack exchange is just that, opinions just as presented here.

[holbita]

You cannot revive a fission duplicate the same way you cannot revive a fireball. They are effects, not creatures.

Now... you want to treat it as a creature? that's a completely homebrew thing and as such you are going to find yourself in a pickle when it comes to how it works. So don't think too much about it and just go with what makes your game interesting.

[icefractal]

I think unless you have an actual source for soul rules for fissions and schisms you should keep it out of the discussion because it'll just be you and me making up baseless stuff to argue what we want.Thing is, while it's ambiguous about what exactly is controlling the Fission copy, it's not ambiguous that the spell has a duration.

There is exactly one case where it outlives the duration, and that's when you die. And at that point it "is for all intents you", so the case for being able to resurrect a person who's currently alive is questionable (but that's a different question anyway).

So it dies, the spell doesn't end, and in fact the copy doesn't stop existing, it just stops being alive. So you can resurrect it. Once the spell ends, the copy does stop existing - there is nothing to resurrect there.

Which is how spells in general work. Cast a Wall of Fire, then move an Anti-Magic Field on top of it. It's suppressed but not gone. Now wait until the Wall's duration expires and remove the AMF. Does the Wall spring back into existence and now have a permanent duration? No, it does not.

The only reason to think Fission would be different in that regard is ... an appeal to fluff. That it doesn't make sense for the copy to no longer exist, even in the "dead" state. But you've spent several threads stating how much you only care about RAW, so fluff arguments are not allowed.


Also, something I'd forgotten about Fission:

You cannot use fusion or metaconcert with a duplicate, or share any other power or effect that pools abilities (the sum of you and you is still just you). Similarly, attempting to use powers such as claws of the vampire or vampiric blade to hurt your duplicate only damages your duplicate; these powers do not heal you. Empathic transfer and similar powers are likewise ineffective (transferring wounds to yourself isn’t a good healing strategy).Not sure exactly what this implies about the nature of the copy, but it's obviously not 100% separate from the manifester.