Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time (Episode II)

[Fyraltari]

Hello ladies, gentlemen and other friends, and welcome to the second part of my watch-through of the second animated series covering the events of the Clone Wars, originally broadcasted from 2008 onwards.

As the title states I have not watched these before. I have, however, consumed Star Wars media related to this show, Rebels and The Mandalorian in particular but also a slew of books, video games and assorted expanded universe content. I have also been online and therefore exposed to memes and other spoilers. Nevertheless, I would appreciate it if discussion of episodes I have yet to see are kept in spoiler boxes episode labeled accordingly (such as "next season" or "season 7, episode 2" for instance).

The first thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?613637-Fyraltari-watches-The-Clone-Wars-(2008)-for-the-first-time) covered seasons 1 to 5 which, coincidentally corresponds to the original run of the show, meaning that we are now headed into the post-Disney purchase revival of the show. Therefore, it is my understanding that, while the cast and crew behind this is essentially the same as for the first five seasons, Disney executives enjoyed some amount of editorial powers over these episodes and that connections or nods towards the Sequel Trilogy, or the broader Disney Star Wars canon may happen. Or not. As season 6 was broadcasted a full year before The Force Awakens, this also means that Filoni and crew basically got the first say in shaping the new E.U. Did they go mad with power? Probably not, I mean, it's not like they have demonstrated a fear of shaking up established canon so far.

As previously, I am watching each episode twice, first normally as to not detract from the experience, and then some time later while writing my review. And my official update schedule is "whenever I make time for it."

Before we move on to season 6 however, here are my thoughts on season 5 as a whole:

Season 5 was a marked improvement over the rather middling season 4, with still a few bumps on the road nonetheless.

The Onderon arc was really good, even managing to do a love-triangle in a not too irritating way. It's hampered by the nonsense politics of it all, though.
The youngling arc opened with quite possibly the best episode of the show and the rest were... fine, despite Hondo's absurdly incoherent characterization.
The droid arc felt like it was straight out of season 1, which I do not say in praise of either. But A Sunny day in the Void was the only episode of the season I'd outright call bad. the rest being passable. Gregor was a nice addition to the cast, but I still feel he could have been handled better.
The "Maul and Mandalore" arc was the best of the season. IT really shouldn't have been split. it really deepened Maul's character. I do find that Savage and Satine were mostly wasted, as savage stayed very passive until his death (and the subject of feral never came up) while Satine got fridged and we onmy learn of her sisterhood with Bo-Katan posthumously.
Ahsoka's trial had two very good episodes (her escape and trial) and two mediocre ones (the actual investigation and her being on the run) while it made for an excellent finale and nicely completed her personal arc, it was undercut by the nonsensical plot and Ventress's inexplicable presence.

Anakin received suprisingly little focus this time around. He's here alright, but I couldn't really call him the protagonist of any episode.
At this point, at just hopes that Grievous never shows up again. He's just embarrassing, now.
I feel like we are done with Lux. His planet is free and him and Ahsoka reached an understanding about their realtionship (better as friends). I wouldn't mind him showing up, but I don't think he needs to be as prominent again.
Hondo was great in the Maul arc, but the youngling one made him switch between the most despicable we've ever seen him and "I just can't stay mad at you". It's really weird and if they're going to keep bringing him back, I wish they got a grip of his character already.
Ventress's appearance is just bizarre. There wasn't really a need for her to be there and it just raises more questions than it answers. I do kind of hope that she and Ahsoka team up though. If only for the sheer oddity of it.
Obi-Wan lost the love of his life, but he's too Jedi to let that openly affect him. He can't really change since he's the same in AotC and RotS, but now I guess his serenity hides a lot of hurt.
This season did a number for Maul. He's now portrayed as as much of an intellectual threat as a physical one. He's fated to never succeed of course, but if nothing else, it should be fun to see how it all blows in his face. Still, he did get to hurt Obi-Wan, which is what he was after. He failed to get back in the good graces of his master, and Sidious murdering savage probably means he's now solidly his worst enemy over even Kenobi. So there's a sort of growth there? More of a lateral movement, really. Curious to see what Sidious has in stores for him, though.
Speaking of Mandalore, we've left them in an odd place, about to be invaded by the Republic, with no leadership to speak of except maybe for the one who called the republic in the first place. I wonder what Bo-Katan will get up to.
Barris made for an interesting villain, but I wish we had seen more of her, bith before and during her fall and I don't understand why they would not include her master at all in the finale.

This season's protagonist was undoubtedly Ahsoka. The Onderon, Younglings and Trial arcs all featured her a lot. She resolveed her tension with Lux, in part thanks to anakin being a decent mentor for once, got to act as the responsible adult for children even younger than her and finally was betrayed by her closest friend and was rightfully disillusioned by the Order, resulting in her leaving. I look very much forwards to seeing how she adapts to this sudden change, how she navigates the remaining of the war and the oncoming purge and how she completes her transformation into the woman we see in later installments.

I also really appreciates how this season takes pains to show the transition between the Republic and the Empire, especially in terms of aesthetics. These really are the last days of the Republic and the beginning of the Dark Times Ben Kenobi told Luke about.


And now it is time for:

Season 6, The Lost Missions, Episode 1: The Unknown

We open in the middle of a battle on Ringo Vinda, a Rig world. Not a Ring wrold as in a tidally-locked planet where one half is in constant day and one is in constant night, not a Ring world as in a an artificial construction encircling a sohere (the poor man's Dyson Sphere) but a space station encircling a planet. I'm not really sure what the point of that is. It's not connected to the ground so it's not some overdesigned space elevator. I'm not even sure whther people are living on the surface as the battle takes place in the station. Unusually, the SPace battle and "ground" battle are happening at the same time, unlike the usual tactic of the attackers seizing the space around the planet before moving in. The battle has been in a stalemate for several days, but Anakin Skywalker leads the 501st in bold offensive to break it. Alongside him are twin Jedi Masters Tiplee and Tiplar and their own (green-colored) company. Hold on, Jedi siblings? Working as a team? What happened to the "no attachment" rule? Among the 501st is our old friend Fives who is narrowly saved from a not-quite-dead B1 by a well timed tackle from Tup, from the Umbara arc. Faced with droidekas, the clones take cover behind metal shields they carry while one of the twins levitates the droids so that the clones can safely roll a few EMP grenades under their shields. It's clear they've done this many times before. The Republicans clear a room of Seppies and prepare to advance towards their next objective: a command poste who they must take before the droids' reinfiorcement show up. Anakin explains his plan: it's a three-pronged attack, each twin attack from one side, forcing the droids to divide in response, leaving them wide-opened for Anakin's group to strike at their center. Interesting that the two Masters present defer to the leadership of a Knight. It seems like Anakin is now regarded as a Master in all but name, at least by Jedi not on the Council, which makes his frustation in RotS seems more reasonable and less like a tantrum. Nice. Tiplar's clone officers says his troops are severely depleted and require backup for this mission, so Anakin loans him Fives, Tup and ten more troopers. Twelve people make up for "severe depletion"? I swear, the size of this army...

As they leave, Tup starts feeling dizzy and tells a concerned Fives he's not feeling like himself. He briefly looks at Tiplar and mumbles "Jedi" with loathing in his voice to himself as his pupils widen. A friendly shove from Fives kicks him out of it though, and he insists he's fine and ready to go. All three groups attack a the same time, which doesn't really fit what Anakin said, but the point is quickly moot as they reach and long, I want to say hangar? and merge after ten seconds. this space station is very oddly designed. The hangar is filled with combat droids of all kinds and is overlookd, on the other side by the Seppies' advanced HQ where we find their leaders: one tactical droid with a kraken painted on his breastplate and one Admiral Trench, who had three of his six arms and half of his face replaced by cybernetics. Sir, you exploded. In space. Prosthesis really shouldn't have saved you. In the battle proper, Tup is unfocused until he spots Tiplar again and enters some sort of fugue state. He takes his helmet off, so we can see his pupil dilate again, and repeats "Jedi" followed by "Good soldiers follow orders" before walking to Tiplar with his blaster on her. Tiplar looks at his gun, looks him in the eye and freeze for a couple second before he guns her down. What happened to Jedi reflexes? Tup wakes up from his transe just as Fives tackles him to the ground and Tiplee rushes to her sister's corpse. The droids take advantage of the confusion to send a few destroyers as well as B2s with rocket-thrusters in their backs! at the clones. Damn, those look cool. Anakin declares their momentum lost and orders a tactical withdrawal. Tiplee is carrying her sister's corpse away, bride-style with her back completely turned to the enemy, it's good for her they literally can't shoot straight in a corridor. Anakin tasks fives with watching Tup, saying he wants answers once they're back to base.

At the command post, a pensive trench watches a recording of the battle, in particular the mureder of Tiplar and asks to be put in touch with Dooku posthaste. He has something the Count will find most interesting to report. Informed of the event, Dooku first suspects another clone traitor, but trench noticed the transe-state Tup was in and insists this was something else. Dooku thanks him for the information and hangs up. Back with the gAR, the Republicans set up automated turrets in frint of the room they had taken and weld the doors leading to the Separatist-controlled part of the station shut. Skywalker, Rex, fives and a medic (you know he's one because he has an off-brand Red Cross painted on his pauldron) take Tup to a separate room and interrogate him. He's been flickering in and out of awareness of his surroundings and when asked if he remembers what he's done, his pupils widen again and he mindless repeats "good soldiers follow orders" again and again. The others are confused by this, but before the medic can make any kind of diagnosis, he focuses on Tiplee and states "kill the Jedi) before launching himself at her. She Force slams him against the wall and seemed poised to just crushed him then and there until Anakin gets her to stand down by saying Tup needs to go to the medical bay before he hurts someone else.

On Serenno, Darth Tyrannus tells Sidious about themurder of a Jedi by a clone and that he belives this is linked to their "programming", but he has no certainty. Sidious wants to know whether this is an isolated incident or if his plans are in jeopardy. Therefore he orders Dooku to seize the clone immediately. That's not a very clever move, I fell like that would just draw more attention to him by making the Jedi wonder what the Separatists want with him. It should be easier to have him rapatried to Kamino by the GAR and "disappeared" there, no? Waking up restrained in the sick bay, Tup doesn't remmeber anything and has apanick attack when told he murdered Tiplar. The medical droid sedates him. Th emedic can't find anything wrong with Tup physically and guesses this is a sort of combat-related stress issue. Rex says the clones have been designed to withstand any stress. Fives agress, saying that Tup went through a lot without anything like this happening beofre. He thinks his battle brother is sick or drugged somehow, something the medic reluctantly admits could be possible. Anakin takes the conversation outside and wonders if the Separatists could be responsible. Tiplee's heard rumors of attempts to develop a virus that would target clones specifically. The medic cuts the pointless speculation, their field hospital simply isn't equipped to do the kind of thorough examination Tup requires. He'll have to be sent to Kamino to get answers. And so it is decided. Tup, still restrained and hooked up to a breathing apparatus, for some reson, is being loaded onto a shuttle. Fives tells him not to worry, the doctors will fix him up in no time and they sonn enough will be drinking together again. Tup just repeats his line about good soldiers, prompting Fives to tell him that he is a good soldier, as a good-bye.

The shuttle leaves accompanied by what I believe to be four Z-95 fighters. Just before they can make it to hyperspace, however, they are ambushed by a Separatists fighters (who had apparently "circled around behind [them]", not sure how that works). More precisely, one of the massive flying droids from the Onderon episodes and four flying B2s. The superdroids land on the Z-95 and gun down the pilots throught he cockpits. So cool! The bigger droid cripples the shuttle's engines and lauches a few buzz droids at it. Th elittle gremlins break open the cockpit, spacing the two pilots. The shuttle loses its internal gravity. The troopers inside repsond by activating their magnetic boots and arming themselves. The buzz and super droids come in and start shooting. Since the main characters aren't here, the good guys get wasted. Still there's a cool tracking shot of a terrified clone nurse grabbing a gun and laying low before managing to take two B2s down. He doesn't make it, though. Also, zero gravity firefights are pretty cool. The droids take Tup and put him in a sort of self-propelled coffin to carry him back to base. I'm not sure if there was still supposed to be air inside the shuttle, because if there wasn't Tup ought to have suffered a lot of damange from exposure alone, but I don't see how the droids could have gotten in otherwise.

Aboard one of the Republic's cruisers, we see our old pal, Yularen (it's been a while) who the war seems to be ageing prematurely as he now has noticeable streaks of white in his air and moustache. He's in contact with Anakin who is investigating the wreck. Anakin, Rex and Fives agree this attack only make sense if the enemy was after Tup. And indeed they find that he is no longer here. There's a haunting moment where Rex looks at the partially-frozen face of one of his brothers. Also, Anakin's got a new space-suit. Fives thinks the Seppies are responsible for what happened to Tup. Anakin would rather not jump to conclusion, but he notes that the interest the clankers have in Tup definitely means something and they must find a way to get him back. Back with the bad guys, Dooku congratulates Trench for a job well done and orders Tup sent to him and that he must be alive regardless of what happens. Trench orders his tactician put Tup in a shuttle for Serenno, when asked about the blockade and tells him to see to it personally. Really, dude? The big boss gives you an important mission and you just delegate it to tyour assistant? I thought you were cleverer than this! Anakin his the other two are on a shuttle moving alongside the station. They'll be dropped near the Separatist hangars, but they'll have to finish the trip on foot, in space. Tup apparently has a locator that lets them know where he is... and incidentally that the Seppies are wasting no time in moving him. they exit the station on the arbitrary underside and space-walk to the edge of the hangar. The camera does a 180° turn so that they start regular wlaking and end up on the ceiling so-to-speak. Then they climb "up" to the hangar. Inside which there is a shuttle, a few droid starfighters and approximately a ****-ton of B1s. Fives takes a moment to laugh at Anakin little binoculars, for some reason. They spot Tup being loaded onto this shuttle. Rex estimates at least a hunder droids in the hangar plus the starfighters. I count at lest 26 rows of 15 combat droids each, so I'm just going to say that Rex's counting skills haven't improved since his "we've got you outnumbered" moment in the pilot movie. Skywalker thinks he's sounding like Obi-Wan. But fives has an idea: grappling guns. According to rex, that's why he's the ARC trooper. Really? I thought it was because he hanged out near Rex doing the battle of Kamino without doing anything particularly noteworthy.

The droid shuttle leaves (with no escort whatsoever. Seriously, Trench!?) and the three of them rappels themselves to it (is that the right word "rappel"?). One of the pilots notices drag but it stops w=once the Republicans are walking on the hull of the shuttle. The tactical droid points pit there shouldn't be drag in the vacuum of space and the pilot says it's strange, but it's stopped now. This is so wrong I don't know where to begin. SW always showed drag in space (what with the reactors always on and the debris staying in place) and the so it makes sense that the trio would creat some, but that shouldn't surprise the droids and it shouldn't have stopped as long as they were outside the shuttle, in fact, them standing "up" with regards to the direction the shuttle is flying in should create more drag than when they were carried away, not less. Anyhoo, they make there way in (no idea how, since the hulls seems undamaged) and take out the commandos and B1s guarding Tup (woth suprisig difficulty I might add, the tactical even getting a few punch in Anakin before being disarmed). One of the clones shoot the pilot who's now noticing turbulences. That would be funnier if it made any sense. nakin puts his lightsaber to the Tactical's "neck" and asks what he knows about Tup. the tactician just says he's programmed to resist interrogation so Anakin beheads him. What did you think was going to happen, Ani? Fives says he tinks Tup is dying (how would he know that?) so Anakin says he really needs to be brought to Kamino.

On one of the cruisers. Tup is being loaded onto another ship for the twelfth time today (a medical frigate this time, at least) and Skywalker insists Rex comes along to give him a full report as soon as they know more about Tup's condition, for fear of it already being spread among the Army. Tup requests permission to come with since Tup is his best friend (Not that he has many friends left alive, mind) and Rex agrees on the condition that Fives does everything by the book.


Okay, I think I know what this is about. I'll wait until the arc is over to give my opinion of the mind control chips retcon. Let the arc do its thing.

As for the episode in itself, it was fine opener. Trench is back, which is a clear improvement over Grievous even if he's obviously lost some brain-cells along with half his body. Anakin doesn't say anything about what happened at the end of Season 5, but this is neither the time nor the place, and I can understand not wanting to dwell on it for a time. The second half of the episode is weaker than the first since we just run in circle for 15 minutes to end up where we started (Tup being sent to Kamino and the sith knowing about him). Like I said, it's kind of stupid for Sidious to tip his hand like that since Anakin is now eager to figure out what the separatists want from Tup, which was inevitable. With that said, even if he through to bring the tactician's memory banks with him, he doesn't actually know anything incriminating (and neither does Trench).
I wonder if the tactician was overly literal and took Trench "see to it personally, commander" as meaning that the tactician being onboard the shuttle would solve the blockade problem.

Still this episode has some nice fighting and zero-g (and zero-g fighting) choreography and camera movement. You can tell they're getting really comfortable with doing more creative stuff with their cinematography.

Next time: Conspiracy

[Peelee]

Hello ladies, gentlemen and other friends, and welcome to the second part of my watch-through of the second animated series covering the events of the Clone Wars, originally broadcasted from 2008 onwards.

As the title states I have not watched these before. I have, however, consumed Star Wars media related to this show, Rebels and The Mandalorian in particular but also a slew of books, video games and assorted expanded universe content.

No love for Andor?

[Mechalich]

We open in the middle of a battle on Ringo Vinda, a Rig world. Not a Ring wrold as in a tidally-locked planet where one half is in constant day and one is in constant night, not a Ring world as in a an artificial construction encircling a sohere (the poor man's Dyson Sphere) but a space station encircling a planet. I'm not really sure what the point of that is. It's not connected to the ground so it's not some overdesigned space elevator.

So, this is an Orbital Ring (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_ring), which is a long-established megastructure concept. It actually is an undersized space elevator, in a certain sense. There would be cables tethering it to the surface, but they'd probably be too small to see at this scale, and the ring structure actually allows it to be closer to the planet's surface than a space elevator would need to be. This concept has a fairly robust history in Star Wars, with a number of major worlds, notably Kuat, having this sort of structure used for large-scale construction.


Aboard one of the Republic's cruisers, we see our old pal, Yularen (it's been a while) who the war seems to be ageing prematurely as he now has noticeable streaks of white in his air and moustache.

I'm inclined to think that working alongside Anakin Skywalker ranks right up there with 'being the President' in terms of accelerated aging.

[Fyraltari]

No love for Andor?
Plenty, (it's included in the "assorted" mention), but I wasn't making an exhaustive list and Andor is as self-contained as SW properties get. I know from Rebels that Ahsoka, Hondo and Rex all survive this show, Andor just isn't as relevant in this context.


So, this is an Orbital Ring (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_ring), which is a long-established megastructure concept. It actually is an undersized space elevator, in a certain sense. There would be cables tethering it to the surface, but they'd probably be too small to see at this scale, and the ring structure actually allows it to be closer to the planet's surface than a space elevator would need to be. This concept has a fairly robust history in Star Wars, with a number of major worlds, notably Kuat, having this sort of structure used for large-scale construction.
Yes, I am aware of the general concept.
We wouldn't see the tethers on the planet's end but we should see them on the station's.


I'm inclined to think that working alongside Anakin Skywalker ranks right up there with 'being the President' in terms of accelerated aging.

https://i.imgur.com/BsE2A8d.jpeg
In-universe only six months happened between these pictures.

[Fyraltari]

Season 6, Espisode 2: Conspiracy

Fives, Rex and Tup land on Kamino after an eventless trip. The patient is handed over to Dr. Nala Se, Kamion's chief medical scientist and one of the main geneticists behind the clone troopers. When people say the Kaminoans are the best cloners in the galaxy, they're talking about her basically. Also present is Shaak Ti who wants Fives to be put in isolation and have a full check-up done. If whatever Tup has is infectious, he's most likely contaminated, so quarantaining hiù makes sense, also, studying the development of the disease in him may yield valuable data. Good thinking, but then maybe don't have him walk around acorridor full of clones, heh? He agrees, for Tup's sake. Also, Anakin requested Rex back aSAP. What was the point of sending him then? He's got nothing to report in his full report yet! Rex apaologizes to Fives, as he wished he could have stayed with them, but fives says that it's fine: fighting a virus is a nice chance of pace from the battlefield. I wonder if he's happy to be back home, too. Kamino isn't exactly warm and welcoming, but it's all he's known for most of his life.

Nala Se and Shaak Ti commence testing an unconscious Tup in an operating room. Se has a droid inject a stimulant, which he does by stabbing him through the clothes, brutal. Tup start writhing in pain, which alarms Fives who can see everything from the next room. Ti Force-pushes a button, turning the window between both rooms opaque while Se observes that Tup's reactions are normal so far. This kind of testing is called "hypertesting" and, though it is obviously very painful, Dr. Se finds them time-saving. Shaak Ti doesn't appreciate much. Still, the hypertest finds nothing wrong with Tup. And then he wakes up, spots Shaak and starts ranting about killing Jedi and following orders. They sedate him. Ti concludes the separatist must have find some way to brainwash him. Dr. Se's droid assistant goes over to Fives' room to do his tests, per-emptively apologizing for stabbing him with a needle. What's with this place? Fives appears in perfect health, too, if a bit anxious about his brother. This isn't actually good news, since it means no progress on finding the cause of the disease and therefore, Fives is still to remain in isolation. He says he's not a threat and neither is Tup. Dude, you saw him shoot a woman in the face with your own eyeballs, of course he's a threat! Fives says the droid can't understand: he's just a droid, he doesn't know what it's like to have a brother or real duty. The droid says he's sorry, he's always wanted to have human feelings. But he doesn't. Good-bye! Wait, did they just steal a Futurama joke?

Back with Tup, Nala Se suggests that since Fives shows no symptom, the condition might be purely psychological. Shaak Ti doesn't accept that (I'd ask how, but Jedi can read minds to an extent, so...) and insists Se must have missed something physical. The droid assistant proposes doing an atomic level (level ) brainscan. Atomic level? What is that going to show, that is brain is mostly made out of carbon and hydrogen? Se shoots the proposition down: he's too weak for a level-5 so they'll have to make do with the level 1 and 2 they've already done. The assistant says he's calculated that the beneficial knowledge they might gain is worth the risk. Dang, that robot just solved moral philosophy! I'd like to see his calculations. Nala Se has a counter-proposition. Terminate Tup and do an autopsy on the molecular level. Can't they do both, though? I fail to see the contradiction. Shaak Ti says they must be cautious, she thinks this is no physical ailment, but a brainwashing-induced mental condition. Nala Se, however is convinced this is a virus. Hold on. Did you just swap your respective positions? Nala Se tries to pull rnak: her patient, her decision. Shaak Ti counters that the Jedi and the republic commissioned the clones, so they must overseee their care. Dr. Se counters that every clone (and their genome) is property of the Kaminoan government. Wait, does that mean the GAR is on loan to the Republic? Anyway, both decide to refer to their respective superiors (Prime Minister Lama Su and the Jedi Council) before proceeding.

The assistant goes back to Fives and tells him "CT-5385"'s condition is getting worse. Fives insist that Tup's name is Tup, which confuses the droid. He says that Tup is a number, like all of them. He's AZ45211896246498721347. Fives insists that no clone uses his number anymore, they have names now. AZ45211896246498721347 says Fives is a number too "CT-5555". Fives explains that his name is Fives. Not "Five", that's a number, but "Fives". AZ45211896246498721347 finds the difference minimal, but Fives insists it isn't to him, or any clone. MEanwhile Nala Se tells Lama Su that there's been a "pre-emptive execution of clone protocol 66", but she doesn't know why yet. The reason she wants to do a full-autopsy is to discover what activated the inhibitor chip. She explains to Lama Su that Ti is going to the Council to get their approval for a brainscan. He decides they must consult with Lord Tyranus. Turns out, he's been waiting all day for their call (probably from as soon as Trench worked up the courage to tell him he failed miserably in his task.) He's hiding his face from the Kaminoan in the shadow of his hood, something they seem fine with. He asks how widespread the malfunction is. Lama Su reassures him that it's an isolated incident, but explains the issue with the Jedi. Tyranus tells them to terminate the clone quickly but to send the chip to him for analysis rather than hang on to it. he tells them to remember that the chip was a safety feature against rogue Jedi and that Master Sifo-Dyas was the only Jedi aware of it. Now, only the three of them know about the chips, and it must remain so. LAma Su agrees and ends the call. As a he leaves he tells Nala Se that he finds "these Jedi" to be a curious cult (wait so doe she believe Tyranus is a Jedi?) and she agrees, much too spiritual.

Meanwhile, Shaak Ti expalins aher situation to the Council. Windu asks how Tup could be brainwashed, and she says Anakin reported Tup missing in action for 5 "roations" on Ringo Vindal. She suspects hthat's when he was compromised. Why did no-one bring that up last episode? When told the brainscan may kill Tup, Kenobi suggests they bring Tup to the temple so they can examine him through the Force. Shaak Ti agrees. Back with Fives. He's frustrated with protocols and procedures and decides that if Tup could speak, he would agree to the brainscan, despite the risk to himself, to find out what's wrong. He wants the two of them to perform the scan, regarldess of what Se or Ti say. AZ45211896246498721347 refuses to disobey protocol, but Fives points out that AZ45211896246498721347's highest duty is to save his patient, and since the alternative to the brainscan is termination and autopsy, not performing the scan is tantamount to letting his patient die. AZ45211896246498721347 retorts that his programming does not allow for disobeying orders, but fives tell him to check his programming: isn't saving the patient his highest priority order? It is. Convinced, AZ45211896246498721347 sneaks fives into the operating theater. All the necessary equipment is there and they begin the scan. AZ45211896246498721347 finds what appears to be a tumor in Tup's brain, something he's never seen in clones before. To know what it is exactly, they'll need to make a biopsy. This atomic-level scan really isn't as impressive as they made it sound, I've got to say. Fives accidentally knocks a bunch of surgical tools to the ground, alerting Nala Se who just got to the corridor outside the room. He manages to hide behind furniture while AZ45211896246498721347 expalisn to the doctor what he found. She is not happy about him performing a scan without her authorization,calls him just as defective as Tup and decides to have him scheduled for deactivation. AZ45211896246498721347 argues that the tumor is clearly interfering with normal brain activity and that they must scan more clones to find out whether this is an isolated mutation or a basic flaw in the genome. Dr. Se tells him his scan is incorrect, the clone has an undiscovered virus, the autopsy will find and he should leave. Now. Fives manages to sneak out without being seen, having listened to the entire conversation.

The two conspirators retreat to Tup's quarantaine room. He's furious as expected. AZ45211896246498721347 tries to argue that Se is acting logically, but Tup says they weren't created to be disposed of like that. It's true, they were created to be shot in the face by the dumbest robots ever. It's much more dignified. AZ45211896246498721347 says that "CT-5385"'s termination may help other like him survive. Fives shouts "There aren't others like him!" That's not what AZ45211896246498721347 meant, but of course that's how Fives takes it, I like that. Still Fives has an idea. They'll do the biopsy anyway, and then go straight to Shaak ti. He doesn't trust Nala Se, but he remembers how Ti helped Domino Squad back in the day and trusts her to value Tup's life for its own sake. And he doesn't care that it'll be the second time in one day they'll be disobeying direct orders. Rex is never going to believe any of his promises again, is he? To make it work, Fives wants AZ45211896246498721347 to hack into the facility's main computer. Cut to Nala Se preparaing for the autopsy, with Lama Su in person overseeing. Before she can proceed however, AZ45211896246498721347 triggers a facility wide intruder alert, prompting all non-essential personnel to lock down in safe rooms. Shaak Ti is headed to the "intruders" alleged location, worried that it may be another separatist attempt to capture Tup. Fives tells "AZ" to get strated and he uses his built-in torch to cut through the window between both rooms. Why does he have that? The he starts operating.

In the command center, Shaak Ti is told it's a false-alarm, apparently triggered from the medical bay. She quickly realizes what's going on and rushes there. Az's done, though, we even get a shot of the slice of brain containing the chip. Nala se walks in though and tries to grab the "tumor" away from Fives. He grabs the syringe intended for Tup's lethal injection,s aying Nala Se can't be trusted, but beofre he can do anything, Shaak Ti arrives and orders him to stand down. He starts telling her he's got evidence, but he's interrupted by Tup waking up, mumbling about being free from his mission. Fives asks what mission he's talking about. Tup replies that Fives already knows: the mission form their dreams, the one that never ends. Tup tells him it's the end and to forget the mission: he's free from the nightmare. And then he dies. While he was talking, there was several close-up shots of the clones accompanying Shaak Ti, their expression unreadable under their helmets. I like that. Fives despairs that after all that Tup still died.

Shaak Ti and Nala Se jointly report to Palpatine about Tup's death. He overrides Shaak Ti's request for the tumor to be examined at the Jedi Temple by suggesting it's studied in the Grand Republic Medical Facility. Nala Se backs him and Shaak Ti reluctantly agrees. The call ends and he does an evil smirk for the camera.


Oh no. Not Tup. He was so... Remember that time when he... Well, of all the clones in the Grand army, he certainly was one of them.

This was rather run-of-the-mil. I guess it had more impact a the time with the revelation of the clones having a mind-control chip in their brain to kill the Jedi being a surprise? We still have to figure out what went wrong with Tup's so I'm guessing this arc isn't over yet. Therefore, I'll not be discussing my thoughts on this retcon just yet.

What I'll be discussing is the role of the Kaminoans. In AotC, they were presented as dupes of the Sith alongside the Jedi. Honestly believing that the Jedi Order had, well, ordered the clone Army. It also seemed at the time that Dooku (or maybe Sidious himself) had hired them under Sifo-Dyas's name (who was recently deceased) to muddy the waters but had hired Jango under his Sith name of Tyranus. The fact that Tyranus hides his face from them in this epsiode may mean that this is still true: he's presenting himself as a collaborator of the late Sifo-Dyas and hiding that he's the leader of the Separatists. But the question then becomes, who do they think "Lord Tyranus" is? Why do they defer to his leadership? Lama Su says "thses JEdi" after talking to him, implying he sees him as a Jedi, but Tyranus said "Sifo-Dyas was the only Jedi who knew" implying that he isn't a Jedi. But if they tyhink he's a Jedi, why not be honest with Shaak Ti? And if they don't think he is, why obey his orders when the Jedi are the ones paying them? Especially when the orders as as sketchy as "install a secret kill-order targeted at your clients inside the products you sold them without telling them". The longer I think about it the less it makes sense.

Also, the clones are property of Kamino, not of the Republic? Bwuh? I could understand their genome (especially the altered parts) being considered a trade secret, but the clones themselves?

Next time: Fugitive. I'm guessing Fives facing consequences for all his insubordination this episode?

[Mechalich]

What I'll be discussing is the role of the Kaminoans. In AotC, they were presented as dupes of the Sith alongside the Jedi. Honestly believing that the Jedi Order had, well, ordered the clone Army. It also seemed at the time that Dooku (or maybe Sidious himself) had hired them under Sifo-Dyas's name (who was recently deceased) to muddy the waters but had hired Jango under his Sith name of Tyranus. The fact that Tyranus hides his face from them in this epsiode may mean that this is still true: he's presenting himself as a collaborator of the late Sifo-Dyas and hiding that he's the leader of the Separatists. But the question then becomes, who do they think "Lord Tyranus" is? Why do they defer to his leadership? Lama Su says "thses JEdi" after talking to him, implying he sees him as a Jedi, but Tyranus said "Sifo-Dyas was the only Jedi who knew" implying that he isn't a Jedi. But if they tyhink he's a Jedi, why not be honest with Shaak Ti? And if they don't think he is, why obey his orders when the Jedi are the ones paying them? Especially when the orders as as sketchy as "install a secret kill-order targeted at your clients inside the products you sold them without telling them". The longer I think about it the less it makes sense.

I believe the key is that, to the Kaminoans, Tyrannus is the one paying them. Kaminoan psychology is distinct from humans and has strong superior-inferior gradations. If Lama Su believes Tyrannus is Shaak-Ti's superior, there's no need to share anything he says with Shaak-Ti and it would in fact be inappropriate to do so. The idea that one group of Jedi would be hiding things from another group of Jedi is, to the Kaminoans, ordinary.

The incident does raise the question, which has occurred previously, of the general failure of forensic accounting on the part of the Jedi Order to follow the money back to Sidious with regard to the Clone Army. The only explanation I've ever found even remotely plausible in this regard id that the Jedi Order, raised in monastic confines from essentially infancy, is utterly clueless regarding even really basic economic facts.

[Keltest]

I believe the key is that, to the Kaminoans, Tyrannus is the one paying them. Kaminoan psychology is distinct from humans and has strong superior-inferior gradations. If Lama Su believes Tyrannus is Shaak-Ti's superior, there's no need to share anything he says with Shaak-Ti and it would in fact be inappropriate to do so. The idea that one group of Jedi would be hiding things from another group of Jedi is, to the Kaminoans, ordinary.

The incident does raise the question, which has occurred previously, of the general failure of forensic accounting on the part of the Jedi Order to follow the money back to Sidious with regard to the Clone Army. The only explanation I've ever found even remotely plausible in this regard id that the Jedi Order, raised in monastic confines from essentially infancy, is utterly clueless regarding even really basic economic facts.

The Jedi arent stupid, but its important to remember that not only is their head of government the one who orchestrated the whole thing, but the banking clan is also overtly supporting the other side of the war. Its entirely possible that they couldnt follow the money because the enemy has the paper trail.

[Sapphire Guard]

Alternatively, Sidious isn't an idiot, and the paper trail goes through 3000 shell companies and can't be followed anywhere useful.



It's another of the ones that is very entertaining in the short term while shattering the whole setting with it's horrible writing in the long term. The Jedi get too much information, the Clone Wars can't resist the over foreshadowing to the point that it becomes increasingly implausible that the characters in universe don't catch it. It's something that gets worse and worse across seasons 6 and 7

[Mechalich]

Alternatively, Sidious isn't an idiot, and the paper trail goes through 3000 shell companies and can't be followed anywhere useful.

The paper trail has to lead somewhere, there's just too much money involved for it to be entirely vaporous. The GAR is literally the single largest component of the galactic economy (the clones are actually a relatively small part of it, it's all the ships that were secretly commissioned where the credits really are). Now, it's likely that Sidious murdered basically all the intermediaries involved, so the paper trail probably leads to a pile of bodies who can't give up their secrets. It is canon that he had Master Sifo-Dyas killed for similar reasons. Still, the Jedi Order ought to be much more suspicious of the whole business than they actually are (they are more suspicious in Legends compared to Disney, but still not enough).

I do think the Jedi distance from everyday economic needs - Yoda hasn't paid for so much as a cup of coffee in eight hundred years - makes the order somewhat blind to how ridiculous the monetary aspect of the GAR really is. The Council, and to some extent Obi-Wan, seem to believe that while Sifo-Dyas had no authorization to order the production of a secret army, that was still something he could have done, despite having absolutely no way to pay the Kaminoans or Rothana Heavy Engineering.

Of course, this isn't the fault of the show, or the EU generally. AotC births the clone army from basically nowhere and nothing and left everyone else trying to come up with a post-hoc justification for how this could possibly be a thing and why the Jedi would trust it. Order 66 basically only works if the Jedi grab the idiot ball somewhere along the line.

[Keltest]

The paper trail has to lead somewhere, there's just too much money involved for it to be entirely vaporous. The GAR is literally the single largest component of the galactic economy (the clones are actually a relatively small part of it, it's all the ships that were secretly commissioned where the credits really are). Now, it's likely that Sidious murdered basically all the intermediaries involved, so the paper trail probably leads to a pile of bodies who can't give up their secrets. It is canon that he had Master Sifo-Dyas killed for similar reasons. Still, the Jedi Order ought to be much more suspicious of the whole business than they actually are (they are more suspicious in Legends compared to Disney, but still not enough).

I do think the Jedi distance from everyday economic needs - Yoda hasn't paid for so much as a cup of coffee in eight hundred years - makes the order somewhat blind to how ridiculous the monetary aspect of the GAR really is. The Council, and to some extent Obi-Wan, seem to believe that while Sifo-Dyas had no authorization to order the production of a secret army, that was still something he could have done, despite having absolutely no way to pay the Kaminoans or Rothana Heavy Engineering.

Of course, this isn't the fault of the show, or the EU generally. AotC births the clone army from basically nowhere and nothing and left everyone else trying to come up with a post-hoc justification for how this could possibly be a thing and why the Jedi would trust it. Order 66 basically only works if the Jedi grab the idiot ball somewhere along the line.

As near as I can tell from Wookieepedia, Sifo-Dyas actually did commission the GAAR. He was killed before the finances were fully handled, and Palpatine and Dooku took over and basically said they were acting in his name. It looks like the Kaminoans were paid out of their personal funds, so if they were paid in gems or something rather than credits, its entirely possible that there is no paper trail.

[runeghost]

The paper trail has to lead somewhere, there's just too much money involved for it to be entirely vaporous. The GAR is literally the single largest component of the galactic economy (the clones are actually a relatively small part of it, it's all the ships that were secretly commissioned where the credits really are). Now, it's likely that Sidious murdered basically all the intermediaries involved, so the paper trail probably leads to a pile of bodies who can't give up their secrets. It is canon that he had Master Sifo-Dyas killed for similar reasons. Still, the Jedi Order ought to be much more suspicious of the whole business than they actually are (they are more suspicious in Legends compared to Disney, but still not enough).

I do think the Jedi distance from everyday economic needs - Yoda hasn't paid for so much as a cup of coffee in eight hundred years - makes the order somewhat blind to how ridiculous the monetary aspect of the GAR really is. The Council, and to some extent Obi-Wan, seem to believe that while Sifo-Dyas had no authorization to order the production of a secret army, that was still something he could have done, despite having absolutely no way to pay the Kaminoans or Rothana Heavy Engineering.

Of course, this isn't the fault of the show, or the EU generally. AotC births the clone army from basically nowhere and nothing and left everyone else trying to come up with a post-hoc justification for how this could possibly be a thing and why the Jedi would trust it. Order 66 basically only works if the Jedi grab the idiot ball somewhere along the line.

I've watched (and read) a fair amount of Star Wars, but hadn't given a lot of thought to the forensic accounting behind the clone army. My takeaway from Episode II (which I never really changed) was that the in-universe story the Jedi (and others "in the know") believe is something like this:

The Separatists, pretending to be Master Sifo-Dyas, commission the Clone Army from the Kaminoans.

The Separatists pretend to be representing the Republic, because 1) they're paying for what's intended to be "their" army using their enemy's wealth, and 2) the Kaminoans, being "good citizens of the Republic" wouldn't raise an army for the "evil" Separatists.

Obi-wan's "clever" investigation stumbles onto the "secret" army, revealing it to the Jedi. This allows Yoda (representing the Council and the Republic) to "steal" the Separatists' army and turn it against them.

Any investigation of the paper trails runs right back to the Republic, where it is mixed with Separatists sympathizersg and traitors.

Of course, we the viewers know that what's really happening is Darth Sidious playing both sides to achieve his own aims. Actually, it just occurred to me, that given the Jedi's disconnect from real economics, and the likely scope of galactic bureaucracy, any investigation would need a lot of cooperation with Palpatine (presuming they didn't just had it over to him and trust whatever result he produced), who would be in a perfect position to guide whatever result he wanted, with the Jedi none the wiser.


As for the cost of the Grand Army of the Republic... Star Wars draws a lot from the Lensmen series, and in those novels the Galactic Patrol has effectively unlimited funding because even a tiny tax on a polity the size of a galaxy is an immense amount, enough for any conceivable need, even immense fleets and a giant military.

[Mechalich]

As near as I can tell from Wookieepedia, Sifo-Dyas actually did commission the GAAR. He was killed before the finances were fully handled, and Palpatine and Dooku took over and basically said they were acting in his name. It looks like the Kaminoans were paid out of their personal funds, so if they were paid in gems or something rather than credits, its entirely possible that there is no paper trail.

There is literally not enough cash in existence to cover a purchase of this kind. Also, while Star Wars is in some ways underdeveloped compared to the 21st century, it's not like D&D. A payment in kind - which is what gems or some other commodity would be, would still have to be invoiced. Some of what Dooku and Palpatine paid came out of personal, or rather Sith in the form of a massive criminal and finanical network developed by Sidious' predecessors, resources, but even that is highly dubious in terms of meeting the needs. Really the only real way that the existence of the GAR can be explained is that Palpatine secretly, and illegally, issued massive amounts of debt in the Republic's name that was then sold to Kamino and Rothana after becoming Supreme Chancellor.


I've watched (and read) a fair amount of Star Wars, but hadn't given a lot of thought to the forensic accounting behind the clone army. My takeaway from Episode II (which I never really changed) was that the in-universe story the Jedi (and others "in the know") believe is something like this:

The Separatists, pretending to be Master Sifo-Dyas, commission the Clone Army from the Kaminoans.

The Separatists pretend to be representing the Republic, because 1) they're paying for what's intended to be "their" army using their enemy's wealth, and 2) the Kaminoans, being "good citizens of the Republic" wouldn't raise an army for the "evil" Separatists.

Obi-wan's "clever" investigation stumbles onto the "secret" army, revealing it to the Jedi. This allows Yoda (representing the Council and the Republic) to "steal" the Separatists' army and turn it against them.

Any investigation of the paper trails runs right back to the Republic, where it is mixed with Separatists sympathizersg and traitors.

So this is definitely incorrect. Sifo-Dyas did exist and he did go to Kamino and put in the order for the Clone Army, after which he was assassinated and Dooku took over operations. Money, from distinctly unclear sources, is used to pay for this. Now, possibly Sifo-Dyas trusted Dooku to know a lot more about money than he did and looped Dooku in to handle the finances. That would make some sense, and would place the idiot ball in Sifo-Dyas' hands (which since he was already being manipulated by the Sith isn't that big of the deal).


As for the cost of the Grand Army of the Republic... Star Wars draws a lot from the Lensmen series, and in those novels the Galactic Patrol has effectively unlimited funding because even a tiny tax on a polity the size of a galaxy is an immense amount, enough for any conceivable need, even immense fleets and a giant military.

So, people say this, but Star Wars actually draws very little from Lensmen and there's no evidence Lucas was familiar with those works at all. Star Wars draws heavily from Flash Gordon, something Lucas has openly admitted. There are similarities between Lensmen and Star Wars, but it's mostly a matter of convergence and indirect dispersion of ideas across the totality of the space opera genre.

In any case, the Republic of the PT era was incredibly cash strapped and had no real power to levy taxes. The entire point of the PT-era Republic is that it is basically the weakest and most corrupt 'democracy' imaginable. That it hadn't already collapsed was mostly a matter of the Jedi unsustainably propping it up. Significantly, even if Palpatine never comes to power - ex. if he dies randomly in a hyperspace accident on the way to Coruscant to assume the Chancellor ship after TPM, leaving the Sith temporarily extinct - a CIS-like faction still forms within the next decade or two and still precipitates a massive galaxy-spanning war.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by runeghost
2) the Kaminoans, being "good citizens of the Republic”….

I don’t think Kamino was part of the Republic, given its remote location and generally secretive air. Can’t recall offhand if this was ever addressed anywhere, but operating outside the Republic probably avoids all kinds of ethical issues, at least on paper.


Originally Posted by Mechalich
Really the only real way that the existence of the GAR can be explained is that Palpatine secretly, and illegally, issued massive amounts of debt in the Republic's name that was then sold to Kamino and Rothana after becoming Supreme Chancellor.

Probably this was retroactively authorized under Palpatine’s wartime leadership, along the same lines as the Emergency Powers Act but much less visible. It would be easy enough to hide something like this in the byzantine depths of Republic funding.


Originally Posted by Mechalich
Significantly, even if Palpatine never comes to power…a CIS-like faction still forms within the next decade or two and still precipitates a massive galaxy-spanning war.

Makes you wonder about psychohistory in the Star Wars galaxy. With all the processing power available to them, you’d think someone would have developed the concept.

That said, I’m not sure the CIS faction would have necessarily gone to war without Palpatine. He spent decades manipulating the circumstances to allow for that war, and without his constant efforts the CIS might simply have separated administratively and coexisted with a diminished Republic. If the latter really was cash-strapped and weak to the point of collapse, it’s hard to imagine much coherent effort towards a war without Palpatine driving them towards it.

[Keltest]

In TCW it was at one point specifically addressed that they bargained their importance to the clone armies into fast tracking their admittance to the Republic, which they were not previously a part of.

[Sapphire Guard]

Galactic scale economics would need to run on a scale we can't even begin to conceive of. If it is true that the Galactic Republic is strapped for cash because of its difficulties in collecting taxes (and I have no idea where you are getting that), all that means is that the galaxy is full of extraordinarily wealthy people and individuals.

Dooku owns a planet, and he is backed by a group of the richest mega corps in the galaxy.

The basic questions involved here (what does is cost to create a clone? What does it cost to outfit a starship?) are things we have no answers for, so talk about accounting is just random speculation.


Of course, this isn't the fault of the show, or the EU generally.

It's totally the fault of the show. AOTC has the discovery that Sifo-Dyas or someone acting in his name purchased a Clone Army for the Republic some years ago. The Jedi never authorised this. They don't know for certain who was actually behind it.

Is that suspicious? Absolutely, that's the point. The Jedi are suspicious of the Senate and the Senate are suspicious of the Jedi, to the benefit of Sidious. But 'suspicious' isn't enough when you are desperately in need of an army or you get steamrolled.

All they had to do was leave that alone, and it works.



But TCW can't resist foreshadowing, so it has plotlines where the Jedi find out about the chip and don't investigate, find out for a fact that Dooku was directly involved in the creation of the Clones and that there's a sufficiently important secret involved in that Dooku is personally involved in silencing survivors, and Yoda has a future vision of Order 66. All of those arcs are fun to watch in the short term, but it's too much foreknowledge ahead of time, and raises too many questions about why this knowledge wasn't acted on.

Edit: Also, the detailed scan necessary to find the chip is not possible in a military medbay, eh? Luckily that doesn't come up again.

[Keltest]

Of course they werent acted on. Who can act on it? The Senate? Palpatine controls them, and he actively wants to squash the investigation. The Jedi? Theyre busy commanding a war, and if one of them does make enough time to start tracking this stuff down, Palpatine can just use his completely legitimate access to some of the Jedi's plans and tell the separatists to go make some noise near where this particular jedi is, distract him and destroy the evidence. Bonus points if the Jedi gets killed.

And since the Jedi already know the Sith are behind the Separatists, it doesnt even tell them anything that the Separatists are stymying this investigation, because they already know the Sith are actively hiding these things, and they strongly suspect that the last Sith Lord is somewhere in the Senate. Theyve basically hit a brick wall that can't be overcome until they deal with the war or the Sith (or both).

[Grim Portent]

I mean, what could the Jedi actually do? The Clone Wars is unrealistically short, especially for a war of that scale, and by the time they get the information to actually justify something like random batch sampling of the clones or demanding an investigation of Kamino and Dooku's financial transactions from the IGB they only have a few months* or so left before Order 66. Any formal attempt to do something would just get dragged out in debates until it was too late anyway, and would result in at least 1/3 of the Senate calling them traitors and voting to press on with the war anyway.

Ninja'd on this point.



My understanding was that Sifo-Dyas always trusted Dooku, and had trusted Qui-Gon before he died as the two were the macontents of the Jedi as it were. So when he started having visions of a war in the future and wanted to make the clones Dooku was the only Jedi (at the time) he trusted with the idea. The Council at the time was not exactly proactive about things after all, and Dooku was a public opponent of this non-interventionist policy. Unbeknownst to Sifo-Dyas, Dooku was already starting to fall to the Dark Side and be manipulated by Palpatine.

Sifo-Dyas set the groundwork for the clone army, plans were drawn up but not finalised pending payment and such, then got betrayed and killed by Dooku and Palpatine so they could co-opt the project for their own plans. Dooku then went to Kamino and took over the project under his Sith alias claiming to be Sifo-Dyas' co-conspirator (not entirely false) and provided the funding required to finish the project and located a suitable genetic donor, ordered the control chips, and then left to do prepwork for the CIS. Kamino doesn't ask many questions because the Kaminoans are isolationist weirdos who love keeping secrets and prefer to keep contact with others to a minimum.

The money probably got funneled through the IGB, which is incredibly secretive and corrupt, and Kamino itself is a non-Republic world with zero transparency, and later a Republic world with almost zero transparency. All the IGB has to do is protest about client confidentiality (officially neutral and all that rubbish,) Kamino isn't going to reveal their end of the transactions to anyone. Where the money actually came from is an open question, Palpatine already had great sway with several of the megacorps, and was independantly quite wealthy himself, Dooku had a lot of family assets in trust. The money probably came from a combination of corporate donors, Palpatine, a favourable bank loan or two with assets from Sereno as collateral, all shuffled into a dummy account and paid to Kamino in secret.


*Star Wars timeline makes no sense for a Galaxy.

[Mechalich]

Makes you wonder about psychohistory in the Star Wars galaxy. With all the processing power available to them, you’d think someone would have developed the concept.

That said, I’m not sure the CIS faction would have necessarily gone to war without Palpatine. He spent decades manipulating the circumstances to allow for that war, and without his constant efforts the CIS might simply have separated administratively and coexisted with a diminished Republic. If the latter really was cash-strapped and weak to the point of collapse, it’s hard to imagine much coherent effort towards a war without Palpatine driving them towards it.

The Republic was highly unlikely to have allowed a peaceful separation. The Republic is deeply, deeply, committed to the idea of a single united galactic polity (even the Hutts are nominally part of the Republic despite the Republic having functionally zero authority in Hutt Space) for incredibly strong cultural reasons and any division of the galaxy into separate states is considered a bad outcome even though logically there are extremely strong arguments that the galaxy is too big and contains too many divergence viewpoints for any one government to control. This is one of the many ways in which Star Wars history and politics most closely resembles that of dynastic China (I will forebear any detailed examination of this for the sake of forum rules).

The specific CIS faction in the films is unlikely to have gone to war with the Republic on its own, because it was specifically groomed by Sidious to be full of weak-willed corporatists who would take orders from his and Dooku, but in Sidious' absence a leader would have arisen and the grievances would have come due in a violent fashion eventually. It's also worth noting that Republic weakness was largely by choice. The Republic could - and under Palpatine did - make itself stronger with the stroke of a pen by simply restoring to itself powers like direct taxation and standing military forces, something that huge factions within the Republic wanted. Just as there was a CIS-based faction that wanted to break free of a struggling and corrupt government they felt was doing nothing but bleeding them of wealth, there was also a militarist faction that wanted the republic to charge forth and 'tame the Outer Rim.' Tarkin, notably, represents this latter faction.

The overall genesis of this 'one republic, one galaxy' idea that pervades Star Wars is rather curious and traces to ancient history. Specifically, it began when the very early Republic absorbed the Tion Hegemony and established itself a conquering galactic power that refused to accept rivals way back in 24,000 BBY. Something that only happened because the Tionese were terrified of the Hutts and wanted to absorb the nascent Republic so they would have the power to fight them.


I mean, what could the Jedi actually do? The Clone Wars is unrealistically short, especially for a war of that scale, and by the time they get the information to actually justify something like random batch sampling of the clones or demanding an investigation of Kamino and Dooku's financial transactions from the IGB they only have a few months* or so left before Order 66. Any formal attempt to do something would just get dragged out in debates until it was too late anyway, and would result in at least 1/3 of the Senate calling them traitors and voting to press on with the war anyway.

Regarding the length of the war, I think that this has been addressed to at least some degree. First, the Clone Wars begin very rapidly, since both sides have already fully mobilized, which saves several months. Secondly, the war doesn't really end in 19 ABY. The Empire spends three more years mopping up all across the Outer Rim even with the expedient of the droid armies being shut down to accelerate the process.

Still, the Jedi should have examined the Clones much more closely from the very beginning. They should have immediately tasked a group of Jedi Doctors from the beginning of the war to examine the clones in minute detail and conducted extensive autopsies on clones killed in battle so that they knew exactly what they were dealing with.

The whole 'bio-chip' thing is, admittedly, a mistake in this regard. The Legends explanation, in which the Clones had a whole bunch of contingency orders (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Contingency_Orders_for_the_Grand_Army_of_the_Repub lic:_Order_Initiation,_Orders_1_Through_150) to do all sorts of extreme things under various unlikely circumstances, makes a lot more sense. Especially as, in Legends, there were a small number of cases where clones refused to carry out Order 66.

[pendell]

The Republic was highly unlikely to have allowed a peaceful separation. The Republic is deeply, deeply, committed to the idea of a single united galactic polity (even the Hutts are nominally part of the Republic despite the Republic having functionally zero authority in Hutt Space) for incredibly strong cultural reasons and any division of the galaxy into separate states is considered a bad outcome even though logically there are extremely strong arguments that the galaxy is too big and contains too many divergence viewpoints for any one government to control. This is one of the many ways in which Star Wars history and politics most closely resembles that of dynastic China (I will forebear any detailed examination of this for the sake of forum rules).


Also, the Republic, which doesn't have a navy in episode 1, is closer to the League of Nations than it is to a nation-state; it has no power to compel save through the Jedi, and even the Jedi are a persuasive, diplomatic option. By contrast, the factions maintain their own fleets and armies. So I'm not really seeing how leaving the Republic would make all that much of a difference -- so far as I can tell, the various nations are extremely autonomous anyway.



In any case, the Republic of the PT era was incredibly cash strapped and had no real power to levy taxes. The entire point of the PT-era Republic is that it is basically the weakest and most corrupt 'democracy' imaginable. That it hadn't already collapsed was mostly a matter of the Jedi unsustainably propping it up. Significantly, even if Palpatine never comes to power - ex. if he dies randomly in a hyperspace accident on the way to Coruscant to assume the Chancellor ship after TPM, leaving the Sith temporarily extinct - a CIS-like faction still forms within the next decade or two and still precipitates a massive galaxy-spanning war.


Indeed. It makes its subsequent fall in both nucanon and Legends continuities extremely plausible. Because it's all very well to depose the Evil Emperor, but if the Republic doesn't start undergoing some serious systematic reforms , the same contradictions and weaknesses that brought it crashing down in 30 BBY will just cause it to fall again. Like an emergency patient only kept alive by the constant heroic efforts of surgeons.

To my mind, the Empire is partly right; the Republic needs a central navy, the authority to levy taxes, and a counterbalance against the member states. I would even argue for a monopoly on force -- say, allow the member states to control their own territories but any extra-faction violence and dispute is the job of the Republic, with the necessary military force to back it up.

It looks to me as if it was only the constant efforts of the Jedi which kept the whole shebang running, and there's only so many Jedi; I think it's dangerous to depend too heavily on them. Quite aside from the sheer numbers, there's always the risk a Jedi will succumb to the Dark Side and cause an entirely new set of problems for the galaxy. I guess the prequel Jedi partly solved that by keeping as many as possible in the temple on Coruscant, where they could reinforce each other's ideas and adherence to the Jedi code, but that was at the cost of allowing them to lose touch with their humanity . To become the kind of people who would happily sacrifice their closest friend in service of some Greater Good. Ordinary people don't think that way, and the less Jedi understand the people of the galaxy, the less fit they are to mediate their squabbles.

If I understand the sequel trilogy correctly, it looks like the post-Civil War Republic went the exact opposite direction, further decentralizing and weakening itself to the point a two-bit band of terrorists in the outer rim could knock the whole thing over in less than a year.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Mechalich]

Also, the Republic, which doesn't have a navy in episode 1, is closer to the League of Nations than it is to a nation-state; it has no power to compel save through the Jedi, and even the Jedi are a persuasive, diplomatic option. By contrast, the factions maintain their own fleets and armies. So I'm not really seeing how leaving the Republic would make all that much of a difference -- so far as I can tell, the various nations are extremely autonomous anyway.

One thing the Republic does do is maintain certain critical infrastructure and standards. For example, Star Wars has its own equivalent of SI units - which for the most part, are actual SI units like meters - the Bureau of Standards that Syril goes to work for in Andor is part of this, but because these are shared across thousands of alien species, many of whom presumably find them massively inconvenient because they naturally think in base 6 or can't see colors or whatever they had to be practically imposed at blasterpoint. If the galaxy breaks apart into differing polities, then suddenly there's all kinds of different regimes for practical things like what voltage to use and so forth and this imposes real hardship on the people by drastically reducing industrial efficiency. The Unknown Regions, which doesn't benefit from thousands of years of Republic unity, has problems in this regard, like incompatible spare parts and stuff.

A big issue is that the Republic hasn't figured out how to function kind of like the EU does - with a set of universalized bureaucratic standards for efficiency but the retention of political autonomy between the members, nor does it have a mechanism to do so because it is common knowledge that certain factions - the Hutts, always, others, sometimes - are functionally incapable of playing nice with others.


Indeed. It makes its subsequent fall in both nucanon and Legends continuities extremely plausible. Because it's all very well to depose the Evil Emperor, but if the Republic doesn't start undergoing some serious systematic reforms , the same contradictions and weaknesses that brought it crashing down in 30 BBY will just cause it to fall again. Like an emergency patient only kept alive by the constant heroic efforts of surgeons.

To my mind, the Empire is partly right; the Republic needs a central navy, the authority to levy taxes, and a counterbalance against the member states. I would even argue for a monopoly on force -- say, allow the member states to control their own territories but any extra-faction violence and dispute is the job of the Republic, with the necessary military force to back it up.

Legends made some gestures in this direction. The Hand of Thrawn duology describes the New Republic devolving many powers to lower levels of administration - sectors and individual star systems - while retaining control of its central military and other centralized assets like the HoloNet. There were two problems: first, the Empire had flooded the galaxy with military hardware, making it possible for much smaller factions to throw unreasonable amounts of weight around (the Imperial Remnant, itself, transformed into just such a faction); second, the bright minds at Del Rey decided to throw a gigantic poorly justified and poorly written extragalactic invasion at it.

Had the Yuuzhan Vong War not occurred the New Republic probably would have gradually achieved greater stability as the mountain of Imperial hardware gradually broken down and/or became obsolete, allowing the New Republic to assert a monopoly on force without breaking the bank.


It looks to me as if it was only the constant efforts of the Jedi which kept the whole shebang running, and there's only so many Jedi; I think it's dangerous to depend too heavily on them. Quite aside from the sheer numbers, there's always the risk a Jedi will succumb to the Dark Side and cause an entirely new set of problems for the galaxy. I guess the prequel Jedi partly solved that by keeping as many as possible in the temple on Coruscant, where they could reinforce each other's ideas and adherence to the Jedi code, but that was at the cost of allowing them to lose touch with their humanity . To become the kind of people who would happily sacrifice their closest friend in service of some Greater Good. Ordinary people don't think that way, and the less Jedi understand the people of the galaxy, the less fit they are to mediate their squabbles.


There's also the simple fact that the Jedi, as a bunch of paramilitary operatives, are poorly suited to diplomacy, economic development, medicine, or really solving any kind of problem that cannot be resolved by hitting it with a lightsaber. In D&D terms this is like having a whole bunch of really high-level Fighters, but no Spellcasters. The Jedi are excellent at solving problems like Sith, or space pirates, or violent revolutionary cults, or the like. They aren't good at resolving disputes where the application of force won't help. TPM is actually the perfect example: Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan show up to mediate a trade dispute and end up triggering a shooting war. They win - and if Darth Maul doesn't show up they win fairly easily - but the central issue is completely unaddressed.

The Jedi Order, as built by Yoda, is quite narrowly focused in terms of the kind of problems it is capable of solving. And, of course, Palpatine knows this, and the Clone Wars are designed as exactly the kind of problem the Jedi have been waiting to face for hundreds of years. That they would fail to examine the circumstances fully is probably inevitable.

[Keltest]

In fairness to Qui-gon and Obi-wan, the reason they triggered a shooting war is because Nute Gunray was so afraid of their capacity to force a diplomatic settlement that even entertaining them as guests and stalling them was not considered a viable option. He saw that they were Jedi and immediately decided they had to be killed or else they could force both parties to sit down and talk out their problems like adults, IE the Trade Federation would be sent off with its tail between its legs.

[runeghost]

So, people say this, but Star Wars actually draws very little from Lensmen and there's no evidence Lucas was familiar with those works at all. Star Wars draws heavily from Flash Gordon, something Lucas has openly admitted. There are similarities between Lensmen and Star Wars, but it's mostly a matter of convergence and indirect dispersion of ideas across the totality of the space opera genre.

Star Wars merges together a great many influences, and does so in a superbly transcendent fashion. But it does owe a great debt to E.E. 'Doc' Smith, whether Lucas deliberately drew on that earlier work or not.

From Galactic Patrol (the first-written Lensmen novel), Chapter 3, in chronological order (but with some intervening material edited out to make the point):


The fledgling commander rammed both hands into his pockets and thought in black intensity. He must get this data back to Base —but how? HOW?

Fast though she was, one of that barricading horde would certainly manage to clamp on a tractor —and when that happened her flight was done.

"We must get this information back to Base, and we can't do it in the Brittania. The pirates are bound to catch us, and our chance in another fight is exactly zero. We'll have to abandon ship and take to the lifeboats, in the hope that at least one will be able to get through."

"The technicians and specialists will take all the data they, got —information, descriptions, diagrams, pictures, everything —boil it down, and put it on a spool of tape."

Vital information - enemy technical schematics, no less, the key to the war. In a single ship destined to be captured by tractor beam. Said information reduced to a single compact form, and escaping with it in a lifeboat.

In addition to originating many of the more-common space-opera tropes that Star Wars uses, there are other close echoes. The Lesmen and the Jedi are both elite, multi-species orders whose members have special abilities (including telepathy) not generally available to typical inhabitant of the galaxy. In addition to his growing telepathic power, the protagonist Lensman, KimbalL Kinnison, gains a 'sense of perception' through training that allows him to see without using his eyes. And there's much more, from vocabulary choices to plentiful design elements. Star Wars is certainly more than Smith's Lensmen, but I think "very little" is a gross understatement.

[Mechalich]

Star Wars is certainly more than Smith's Lensmen, but I think "very little" is a gross understatement.

Okay, very little directly from Lensmen. There is, to my knowledge, no evidence Lucas has ever read any of the Lensmen works (though other persons involved in the OT may have). Many of the correspondences to Lensmen are instead filtered through the works of Isaac Asimov Foundation and/or Frank Herbert's Dune, which are much more directly sourced - Lucas was quite probably one of many people who yanked ideas from Jodorowsky's draft of a Dune film, which was circulating at the same time ANH was made. Frankly, Lucas isn't all that literary at all, having slurped up Joseph Campbell's The Hero with a Thousand Faces - unmistakably the most important source for Star Wars - as if it were an idea he'd never encountered before. Lucas drew more heavily on cinema, especially the samurai films of Akira Kurosawa (to the point of initially trying to cast Kurosawa stalwart Toshiro Mifune as Obi-Wan), for his ideas. There's also the fact that if Lucas had been aware of Lensmen and drawn from it heavily he probably would have simply tried to license it and make a Lensmen movie, as he did with Flash Gordon.

The similarities between Star Wars and Lensmen are an extremely good example of the principle in literature that there's nothing new under the sun, but that's really all that's ever been established. Star Wars is particularly vulnerable to this because of the Campbell-based universality that Lucas imparted to it. It is deliberately unoriginal in terms of basically all possible story elements.

[pendell]

In fairness to Qui-gon and Obi-wan, the reason they triggered a shooting war is because Nute Gunray was so afraid of their capacity to force a diplomatic settlement that even entertaining them as guests and stalling them was not considered a viable option. He saw that they were Jedi and immediately decided they had to be killed or else they could force both parties to sit down and talk out their problems like adults, IE the Trade Federation would be sent off with its tail between its legs.

As I recall, the reason the Trade Federation tried to kill them was because Darth Sidious was orchestrating the whole thing and explicitly ordered they be killed. Qui-Gonn and Obi-Wan didn't bumble their diplomatic mission; they didn't get the slightest chance to do any diplomacy before the droids rolled in and started blasting.



There's also the simple fact that the Jedi, as a bunch of paramilitary operatives, are poorly suited to diplomacy, economic development, medicine, or really solving any kind of problem that cannot be resolved by hitting it with a lightsaber. In D&D terms this is like having a whole bunch of really high-level Fighters, but no Spellcasters. The Jedi are excellent at solving problems like Sith, or space pirates, or violent revolutionary cults, or the like. They aren't good at resolving disputes where the application of force won't help. TPM is actually the perfect example: Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan show up to mediate a trade dispute and end up triggering a shooting war. They win - and if Darth Maul doesn't show up they win fairly easily - but the central issue is completely unaddressed.



I think that we're to take it as an informed ability that the Jedi are negotiators or mediators first and are to use their lightsabers only as a last resort. I know that's not what we see in the movies but the movies are made for 11-year-old boys; emphasis on the excitement and the adventure and derring-do, not on the boring drudgery of politics and diplomacy . I remember when the prequels came out; I remember how Lucas got nothing but grief for the political parts as 'boring'. His audience wanted lightsabers and spaceships.

So I think that what we see in the movies is more like a movie on the British SAS in WWII, which is made to focus on the 'minutes of stark terror' of combat, as opposed to the sheer tedium which makes up 95%+ of the military experience. There were millions of soldiers in that war who hardly ever fired their weapons after leaving basic; cooks, mechanics, logisticians, intelligence.

And I think also in the movies we're focusing on the very top-tier of the Jedi order in terms of combat ability; Anakin is the strongest force-user of his generation. Obi-Wan is one of the Order's best. But there are 20,000 Jedi and you've got to figure they've got a fair share of Jedi who are in the middle tiers, who are only proficient with their weapons and perhaps have never drawn them in anger.

I present three pieces of supporting evidence for this theory:

-- the fact that, in episode 1, the Jedi are two guys with swords arriving in a single lightly armed transport. That's a diplomatic mission. If they were expecting trouble, you'd expect them to come with a fleet of warships -- or at least, in a ship that couldn't be blown to dust within minutes of docking with the trade federation flagship.

ETA: Just double-checked. The Consular-class cruiser (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Consular-class_cruiser) in the time of Episode 1 is completely unarmed. It has a crew of 9 (stripped down to 2 on the ship shown in film) and a salon pod for negotiations. Its sole protection is the all-red paint job which proclaims it as being from Coruscant with diplomatic immunity. That's not a ship for paramilitary operatives. That's a ship for diplomats.

-- At Geonosis in Episode 2, Mace Windu, Obi-Wan, Anakin, and a really large number of the available Jedi are all in that arena. Three of the best swordsbeings in the galaxy, strong in the Force. And if Yoda hadn't bailed them out with the Clone Army, they'd have been killed to the last being. Jedi are good at negotiation, persuasion, and in the last resort sharp, tightly controlled violence against a single shatterpoint to change the course of history. They aren't built for straight-up attritional military encounters against tens of thousands of battle droids at a time. You need a real army for that.

-- It's all right there in their weapon, the lightsaber.
A lightsaber tells you a lot about the being wearing it. The first thing to note about it is it is the opposite of what Obi-Wan derided a blaster as being: "clumsy or random". A lightsaber is controlled. It is precise. It is specifically targeted violence against a known enemy. If you're going to kill someone with a lightsaber, you've got to be close enough to look them in the eye. There's very little "friendly stab" or "collateral damage" with the lightsaber -- if a person dies on a lightsaber blade it's because the person swinging it has seen them face-to-face and made the decision to kill them.

The reason the Jedi carry lightsabers and no other weapons, despite their obvious inefficiency for killing, is because they're supposed to be the opposite of a Tarkin, who blows up an entire planet , innocents and rebels alike, with a wave of his hand. When a Jedi kills, they're right up in the middle of things, know face-to-face who the good and bad guys are, and are supposed to put their blades where they will do the most good. Kill a Grievous in the middle of his army, no one else gets hurt unless they're stupid enough to try to stop the Jedi.

if the Republic is a medical patient, the lightsaber is a surgeon's scalpel, intended to excise the cancer cells while leaving the neighboring healthy cells alive. Contrast that with the Sith's Death Star, which would destroy an entire arm in order to eliminate a handful of cancer cells in the hopes of terrifying the rest of the body into submission.

The Jedi method is an elegant approach. An intelligent approach. Which is why the Republic, for all its faults, stood for centuries while the Sith Empire lasted only three decades.

So: the Jedi are mediators first, reading the thoughts and hearts of their opponents, sensing the future, guided by the Force to the optimal outcome, perhaps using Force Persuade if ordinary communication doesn't work. They are political operatives first. Not medical doctors or engineers; there are specialists who do that better. When violence is necessary as a last resort it is to be specifically applied violence to specific targets ; an assassination mission. They are neither military nor paramilitary operatives; when they must engage in military confrontation it is best done with a real military, such as the Royal Naboo guards, backing them up.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Fyraltari]

I hit the wrong key while typing a response to everybody and lost everything I had written (no, the forul's autosave feature did not help). Frustrating.

Anyway, none of this make any sense. The plot of AOTC is contrived so that events happen the way they did in the movie regardless of how little sense it makes for the characters to act this way literally everyone in this movie from Sidious to the Jedi to Sam Wesell is an idiot, it's infuriating.

The Clone Army is a trap so big it's visible from orbit and neither the Jedi t=nor the Senate should have trusted either the clones or the Kaminoans.

Back to what I said in the review, the Kaminoans have no reason to trust Tyranus either, since they've been expecting to hear for Sifo-Dyas for ten years before Obi-Wan showed up and his instructions are sketchy as ****.

This is moronic.

[Keltest]

I hit the wrong key while typing a response to everybody and lost everything I had written (no, the forul's autosave feature did not help). Frustrating.

Anyway, none of this make any sense. The plot of AOTC is contrived so that events happen the way they did in the movie regardless of how little sense it makes for the characters to act this way literally everyone in this movie from Sidious to the Jedi to Sam Wesell is an idiot, it's infuriating.

The Clone Army is a trap so big it's visible from orbit and neither the Jedi t=nor the Senate should have trusted either the clones or the Kaminoans.

Back to what I said in the review, the Kaminoans have no reason to trust Tyranus either, since they've been expecting to hear for Sifo-Dyas for ten years before Obi-Wan showed up and his instructions are sketchy as ****.

This is moronic.

The whole point of the separatist crisis was to force the Jedi in particular, but to a lesser extent the Senate, to not have a choice about trusting the clones.

Youre right, its unlikely that the senate would unilaterally allow the clones to just take over. But you know where the dissident voices are? With the Separatists.

[pendell]

The Clone Army is a trap so big it's visible from orbit and neither the Jedi t=nor the Senate should have trusted either the clones or the Kaminoans.


So they don't trust the clones. What difference would it make to the plot? They're still stuck in the position of being in a war and having no army but the clone army to fight with.

I'd be surprised if Mace Windu and Yoda aren't at least a little suspicious, but those concerns have been pushed on the backburner in favor of the more pressing problem of a galactic war.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Fyraltari]

So they don't trust the clones. What difference would it make to the plot? They're still stuck in the position of being in a war and having no army but the clone army to fight with.

I'd be surprised if Mace Windu and Yoda aren't at least a little suspicious, but those concerns have been pushed on the backburner in favor of the more pressing problem of a galactic war.

Respectfully,

Brian P.
If Yoda were suspicious of the clones he wouldn't have taken a full legion of them to attack Geonosis even though he had already sent Windu with the largest contingent of Jedi ever deployed in human memory, thus sparking a war. Seriously, if the Jedi had any kind of internal affairs, Yoda would have been sacked for this at minimum.

Let's see what the situation is the end of Attack of the Clones:

While investigating a murder attempt on Padmé Amidala, Obi-Wan stumbled on a clone army being built in secret allegedly on the order of a late sitting Master of the Council, Sifo-Dyas. The Jedi Order was completely ignorant of this and every record of the planet this is happening on were wiped from the Order's archives. sifo-dyas died approximately at the same time the Jedi's ancient enemy the Sith were discovered to be still active in secret.

The donor for the army turns out to be Jango Fett, an assassin working under former Jedi and current leader of the separatists Count Dooku. He claims to have been hired as a donor by a man named "Tyranus". Dooku tells to t a captured Obi-Wan that the Senate is under the control of a Sith Lord and that he has created the Separatist Alliance to oppose said lord. He offers Obi-Wan to work uder him. Obi-Wan refuses and is charged with espionnage and condemned to death.

Mce windu and a hundred Jedi fail to rescue Obi-Wan as they are no match for Dooku's droid army, but Yoda shows up with the clone army invading Geonosis. Dooku flees. Jango Fett is killed.

So what do the Jedi know? Dooku is fomenting a war but he is also the most likely person to have erased Kamino's location. Why do that? Somebody calling themselves "Tyranus" went to great length to create a Clone Army for the Republic and yet nothing is known about him? What is Tyranus' goal? Is it a coincidence that the mercenary Fett was working for both men? Finding Tyranus ought to be the Jedi's first priority. They only have two links to him: Boba Fett (who may or may not have met him, in any case it's possible his father told him something) and the kaminoan government. Who introduced Fett to the kaminoans? Fett claimed not to know the name Sifo-Dyas, do the kaminoans know a Tyranus? Oh, hey, this episode establishes Lama Su does (even though the movie strongly implied he didn't) in which case he should tell Yoda about it, why hide Tyranus from his colleagues? And if he denies it, just spy on the kaminoans! Shaak-Ti should be considered as acting in enemy territory, and not left alone.

Even assuming the Jedi accept to take up positions of command within the army to watch over the clone (which they don't they're shown to trust the clones completely), and that they can't keep the senate from escalating the war after Geonosis, the Jedi should be arguing to the Senate that the clones are not to be trusted and should be gradually phased out in favor of regular soldiers, something ironically the proto-empire warmongers like Tarkin would support since they have absolutely no reason to trust the clones.

Also, the Jedi should not be in support of the war at all, but that's different.

[Keltest]

If Yoda were suspicious of the clones he wouldn't have taken a full legion of them to attack Geonosis even though he had already sent Windu with the largest contingent of Jedi ever deployed in human memory, thus sparking a war. Seriously, if the Jedi had any kind of internal affairs, Yoda would have been sacked for this at minimum.

Let's see what the situation is the end of Attack of the Clones:

While investigating a murder attempt on Padmé Amidala, Obi-Wan stumbled on a clone army being built in secret allegedly on the order of a late sitting Master of the Council, Sifo-Dyas. The Jedi Order was completely ignorant of this and every record of the planet this is happening on were wiped from the Order's archives. sifo-dyas died approximately at the same time the Jedi's ancient enemy the Sith were discovered to be still active in secret.

The donor for the army turns out to be Jango Fett, an assassin working under former Jedi and current leader of the separatists Count Dooku. He claims to have been hired as a donor by a man named "Tyranus". Dooku tells to t a captured Obi-Wan that the Senate is under the control of a Sith Lord and that he has created the Separatist Alliance to oppose said lord. He offers Obi-Wan to work uder him. Obi-Wan refuses and is charged with espionnage and condemned to death.

Mce windu and a hundred Jedi fail to rescue Obi-Wan as they are no match for Dooku's droid army, but Yoda shows up with the clone army invading Geonosis. Dooku flees. Jango Fett is killed.

So what do the Jedi know? Dooku is fomenting a war but he is also the most likely person to have erased Kamino's location. Why do that? Somebody calling themselves "Tyranus" went to great length to create a Clone Army for the Republic and yet nothing is known about him? What is Tyranus' goal? Is it a coincidence that the mercenary Fett was working for both men? Finding Tyranus ought to be the Jedi's first priority. They only have two links to him: Boba Fett (who may or may not have met him, in any case it's possible his father told him something) and the kaminoan government. Who introduced Fett to the kaminoans? Fett claimed not to know the name Sifo-Dyas, do the kaminoans know a Tyranus? Oh, hey, this episode establishes Lama Su does (even though the movie strongly implied he didn't) in which case he should tell Yoda about it, why hide Tyranus from his colleagues? And if he denies it, just spy on the kaminoans! Shaak-Ti should be considered as acting in enemy territory, and not left alone.

Even assuming the Jedi accept to take up positions of command within the army to watch over the clone (which they don't they're shown to trust the clones completely), and that they can't keep the senate from escalating the war after Geonosis, the Jedi should be arguing to the Senate that the clones are not to be trusted and should be gradually phased out in favor of regular soldiers, something ironically the proto-empire warmongers like Tarkin would support since they have absolutely no reason to trust the clones.

Also, the Jedi should not be in support of the war at all, but that's different.

Ok, so Yoda ignores the clones as a solution, the Jedi are all killed in the arena, the CIS quickly conquers the republic, the remaining Jedi are wiped out, and Dooku wins.

Oops.

[Fyraltari]

Ok, so Yoda ignores the clones as a solution, the Jedi are all killed in the arena, the CIS quickly conquers the republic, the remaining Jedi are wiped out, and Dooku wins.

Oops.

It's not like Yoda knew Windu was in trouble when he decided to take the clones. If I kick you in the back and that realigns your verterbrae, that doesn't mean I kicking you was a good idea. Luck doesn't justify bad decision-making.

The only reason Windu need help is because he decided to spread his troops around the arena and took literally no-one with him to confront Dooku. Like seriously he walks in alone to the booth with all the people he needs to capture and puts his lightsaber to Jango's neck, not Dooku's. If he'd had a dozen (out of the one hundred he took) Jedi accompany him the war would have ended before it even began. Also, ghe resue operation without taking any vehicles to make a getaway is a nice touch.

Everyone in this movie is so stupid, I swear.

[pendell]

It's not like Yoda knew Windu was in trouble when he decided to take the clones. If I kick you in the back and that realigns your verterbrae, that doesn't mean I kicking you was a good idea. Luck doesn't justify bad decision-making.


"In my experience there is no such thing as luck" -- Obi-Wan, Episode IV.

Yoda can see the future, is sensitive to disturbances in the Force, and moreover is able to allow the Force to direct his actions. I think he was acting with foreknowledge when he did what he did, even if he himself wasn't aware at a conscious level why he was doing it.



The only reason Windu need help is because he decided to spread his troops around the arena and took literally no-one with him to confront Dooku. Like seriously he walks in alone to the booth with all the people he needs to capture and puts his lightsaber to Jango's neck, not Dooku's. If he'd had a dozen (out of the one hundred he took) Jedi accompany him the war would have ended before it even began. Also, ghe resue operation without taking any vehicles to make a getaway is a nice touch.


Don't ask me to defend the tactics of that particular escapade, because I won't. I suppose we can't expect the military expertise shown in the movies to be greater than that of the filmmakers, who are amateurs at such things. I grant they probably had a military advisor on set, but they'd never let anything like tactical realism get in the way of telling a story.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Grim Portent]

In defence of the Jedi's god awful approach to the whole Geonosis Arena thing, they weren't there to fight a war or perform an assassination, they were there to make an arrest of a former respected colleague and his co-conspirators in an assassination plot. IIRC they didn't actually know there was a droid army being built at the time, let alone one ready to deploy into the arena.*

As far as they were concerned they were going to face Dooku, Fett, a handful** of geonosion soldier caste warriors and the B1 escorts guarding the megacorp representatives. Theoretically the power differential is so high that Dooku and co would have no choice but to surrender or flee. That there's an army ready to fight them is not something they were fully aware of beforehand, and they couldn't spend time snooping around without risking delaying so long that Obi-Wan, Anakin and Padme get executed.

Jumping into the arena was still pretty damn stupid, I get they wanted to interrupt the execution and all, but why not get a few masters and knights on Dooku, and one on each of the megacorp dignitaries. There were more than enough Jedi there after all.


*Which in hindsight is odd in itself. Why were a regiment of battledroids ready to march into the arena on command? They were being loaded onto transports at the time, why have a bunch of them near an entertainment/execution area? For that matter, why is a droid factory so close to the arena in the first place?

**The Jedi seem largely ignorant of the geonosion culture, so they'd probably be expecting something like Naboo's guards, a few dozen moderately trained volunteer soldiers primarily tasked with guarding Poggle, and not hundreds or even thousands of rapid response flying career/slave soldiers who can spend most of their time trying to kill the invader.

[Fyraltari]

In defence of the Jedi's god awful approach to the whole Geonosis Arena thing, they weren't there to fight a war or perform an assassination, they were there to make an arrest of a former respected colleague and his co-conspirators in an assassination plot. IIRC they didn't actually know there was a droid army being built at the time, let alone one ready to deploy into the arena.
Obi-wan's message says so. That's why they sent so many Jedi in the first place.


As far as they were concerned they were going to face Dooku, Fett, a handful** of geonosion soldier caste warriors and the B1 escorts guarding the megacorp representatives. Theoretically the power differential is so high that Dooku and co would have no choice but to surrender or flee. That there's an army ready to fight them is not something they were fully aware of beforehand, and they couldn't spend time snooping around without risking delaying so long that Obi-Wan, Anakin and Padme get executed.
If so, why spread out among the audience?


Jumping into the arena was still pretty damn stupid, I get they wanted to interrupt the execution and all
Which they should have done by bringing a ship or speeder of some kind into the arena to get out of there quickly.



Which in hindsight is odd in itself. Why were a regiment of battledroids ready to march into the arena on command? They were being loaded onto transports at the time, why have a bunch of them near an entertainment/execution area?
It's possible this was some kind of trap. A ridiculously complicated one with many moving parts, if so.
Alternatively, maybe there was supposed to be a demonstration of the droids' fighting abilities or some kind of parade?

For that matter, why is a droid factory so close to the arena in the first place?
Geonotians like their stuff very close together?


The Jedi seem largely ignorant of the geonosion culture
Does anyone know if there ever was a geonotian Jedi in either continuity?

[dancrilis]

It's possible this was some kind of trap. A ridiculously complicated one with many moving parts, if so.
In fairness Dooku and Palpatine might have been in communication, and the Jedi might have ran using an army to invade a planet past the chancellor's office (or the Kaminoans might have told him) - if so Dooku would have all the info he needed to stage a trap (and thereby start the Clone Wars which might otherwise have been the Clone Strategic Operation).



Does anyone know if there ever was a geonotian Jedi in either continuity?
Not that I am aware of - further according to wookieepedia in legends: 'No Force-users were known to exist amongst this species (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Geonosian/Legends#cite_note-UAA-8)'.

[Grim Portent]

Geonosian biology and psychology together make them unable to wield the Force, and even if one was Force sensitive it wouldn't be willing to leave the planet. Biological caste system with the associated psychology and all that. Free will isn't really a thing for them, while they may desire to rise up from their rank, if a drone or soldier, they never consider the thought of leaving the hive.

I think the Jedi, like most people, only know a tiny amount about the planet and it's people. Geonosians are xenophobic and their planet is frankly miserable for them to live on, let alone other species, tours of the underground and xenological studies weren't really a thing.

I think most outsider contact consisted of businessmen and rulers going there, talking to a duke about business deals, and leaving before the planet gives them a rash. Come back later to tour a factory, leave with a rash, send an underling next time.

There's no crime on Geonosis so to speak, no Force sensitives, and little real politics, so the Jedi have no formal reason to ever go there. The only reason to go is to get something built quickly and cheaply using the efforts of a massive labour population, which isn't really a Jedi priority.


Went and checked the information Obi-Wan sent to the council, it's not actually all that much. The TF is there to collect an army that was being built for them, and the Commerce Guild and Corporate Alliance are pledging their support to a future war (no mention of their forces being present already.*) The Trade Federation's established droid forces were OOM/B1 units, droid starfighters and AAT tanks. Nothing about an army being present and ready to fight, the more exotic droids brought by the other factions being present, or the existence of the new B2s. Were I to recieve the message I'd be expecting a few hundred thousand B1 units in shipping containers, rather than a mixed force including extremely expensive anti-armour tank droids that belong to the freaking Banking Clan, ready to fight within an hour or so of my arrival.

I'd still deploy very differently, getting Anakin, Padme and Obi-Wan out of the arena would be a higher priority than arresting anyone. But with 212 Jedi I'd probably get a bit headstrong. Would definitely have grabbed any judicial corps forces that could be mustered in time as well, but it was a fairly short notice trip. Matter of a few days at most from the message being sent to the Jedi arriving I think, and they still only made it just in the nick of time (speed of plot hyperdrives I suppose.) It's not all that much time to prepare.


*It's actually a bit odd that the various other CIS megacorp backers have their armies on Geonisis at all. Why did you land a substantial part of your personal forces, many of which are extremely expensive, just to load them into big fragile sphere transports with a load of B1 and B2s? You already have transports capable of carrying them, why go to the hassle of unloading them from existing transports and reloading them onto different transports while also finalising negotiations for the military alliance you're pledging them to? All the hailfire droids and such should be in space, in cargo bays, except for an honour guard of them on the ground with their respective delegations.

[Aeson]

*Which in hindsight is odd in itself. Why were a regiment of battledroids ready to march into the arena on command? They were being loaded onto transports at the time, why have a bunch of them near an entertainment/execution area?
Probably because the whole setup is a trap, meant to start a war or at the very least lay the last remaining bits of groundwork for one. Regardless of the legal technicalities involved, summarily executing Obi-Wan so soon after capturing him and in such a way is blatantly a deliberate provocation and an open challenge to the authority of the Republic and the Jedi Order. It's meant to force the Republic, or at least the Jedi, to come down hard on Geonosis while giving Dooku and Palpatine a chance to reveal that the Separatists, or at least the Geonosians, are building a massive droid army in secret, thereby polarizing many or all of the people still on the fence about the Separatist movement and the Military Creation Act and very likely giving the Military Creation Act the impetus it needs to make it through the Senate even if it somehow doesn't start a war outright.

On top of that, Dooku is about as well-positioned as anyone to predict how the Jedi would respond to Obi-Wan's public summary execution, he's likely able to make an informed estimate of how well whatever passes for the Geonosian armed forces would fare against that response, he's trusted by the Geonosian leadership, he knows about the clone army and almost certainly also that the Jedi have discovered it, and he wants to ensure that the war he's trying to start isn't over almost before it begins so he needs to ensure that the Separatist leaders on Geonosis or actually present at the arena - most particularly himself - have the best possible chances of escaping cleanly to carry on the war should the Jedi bring out the clone army when they try to drop the heavy end of the hammer on Geonosis. If he tells Poggle the Lesser that he needs to keep a regiment or two of battle droids at the arena to deal with the likely Jedi response, Poggle the Lesser's probably going to listen.

Also, regarding the proximity of the arena to at least one droid factory, it's really not all that unusual for industrial sites to be relatively close to entertainment complexes, especially historically speaking as it hasn't always been nearly as convenient to have significant separation between where you live, work, and play as it is in the modern world. Major entertainment complexes and factories both like to be where land's cheap and people can conveniently reach them, and while literally being on top of a heavy industrial site is perhaps a bit extreme there's plenty of real-world examples of stadiums within a mile or two of factories and power plants or more or less right across the street from things like warehouses, scrapyards, and freight terminals.


Not that I am aware of - further according to wookieepedia in legends: 'No Force-users were known to exist amongst this species (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Geonosian/Legends#cite_note-UAA-8)'.
That line appears to be talking about Ur-Greedle, not Geonosians - the full paragraph is "The Ur-Greedle (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Ur-Greedle) were close evolutionary cousins of the Geonosians and developed from the same insectoid forebears. No Force-users were known to exist amongst this species."

[dancrilis]

That line appears to be talking about Ur-Greedle ...

It isn't - the source they give lists the line as 'No Geonosian Force-Users are known to exist', but the source is less available then the wookieepedia article, said source is from a sourcebook for an RPG and it doesn't expressly forbid members of the species being force users so make of that what you will.

The wiki for the game does however list them with the line here (https://swse.fandom.com/wiki/Geonosian).

[Sapphire Guard]

The idea that their should have been more Jedi in the box is reliant on the idea that it was quick and easy to get there, that if Mace had a dozen Jedi with him they could have just walked there with no issues. That's the fun part of 'should have done', it's reliant on assumptions about what happened offscreen. I believe in Legends there were more Jedi in the tunnels who were killed by Grievous.

Options

1. Do nothing.

Result: Padme Amidala is executed on Geonosis along with Obi Wan. Anakin is either dead or fallen to the dark (losing both of them on the heels of his mom would break him) Padme Amidala is Archduke Ferdinand, Clone Wars kick off

2. Jedi Rescue party. Same result, but with additional massacre or rescue party by separatist forces. Mace storming the VIP box with a dozen Jedi doesn't change this, he would have to get his captives off planet through all of their forces for this to mean anything. Unless he wants to massacre them all, in which case they become martyrs and war kicks off anyway. (Dooku can probably escape, he can just flip off the ledge if he needs to.)

3. Jedi plus Clones. This one has a chance at victory. The Jedi arrive first, save the captives, buy enough time for the Clones to arrive. Clone Army captures Separatist leadership, disables their army. Negotiations begin, Sidious can still turn this to his advantage. but it's the least best outcome for him.

[Fyraltari]

The idea that their should have been more Jedi in the box is reliant on the idea that it was quick and easy to get there
Dang, it's almost as if the movie portrayed Windu casually walking in unopposed with his weapon switched off and then revealed one hundred Jedi hidden in the public. I wonder what could give anyone the idea he easily got there.

that if Mace had a dozen Jedi with him they could have just walked there with no issues. That's the fun part of 'should have done', it's reliant on assumptions about what happened offscreen. I believe in Legends there were more Jedi in the tunnels who were killed by Grievous.
A massive fight that raised no alarm?


2. Jedi Rescue party. Same result, but with additional massacre or rescue party by separatist forces. Mace storming the VIP box with a dozen Jedi doesn't change this, he would have to get his captives off planet through all of their forces for this to mean anything.
Yeah, I'm sure Poggle and Nute will order their troops to open fire on the guy taking them prisoner. They're very brave like that. You know what a decapitation strike is?

Unless he wants to massacre them all, in which case they become martyrs and war kicks off anyway. (Dooku can probably escape, he can just flip off the ledge if he needs to.)
To where?

The fact that i the movie they walk in there with no plan whatsoever does not mean they never had any chance, it just shows that they walked in there with no plan.

Jedi plus Clones. This one has a chance at victory. The Jedi arrive first, save the captives, buy enough time for the Clones to arrive. Clone Army captures Separatist leadership, disables their army. Negotiations begin, Sidious can still turn this to his advantage. but it's the least best outcome for him.
What? We've seen Jedi+Clones in the movie, what do you suggest they should have done differently?

[Sapphire Guard]

Dang, it's almost as if the movie portrayed Windu casually walking in unopposed with his weapon switched off and then revealed one hundred Jedi hidden in the public. I wonder what could give anyone the idea he easily got there.

The alternative being that the high command of the Separatists in the VIP box are completely unguarded? One person got there =/= any amount of other people could easily get there with no issues. Also, there's a giant execution happening in a crowd full of cheering Geonosians, that's a lot of covering noise, and the B2s march into the box immediately with no one giving any command.


Yeah, I'm sure Poggle and Nute will order their troops to open fire on the guy taking them prisoner. They're very brave like that. You know what a decapitation strike is?

They might. Even in TPM, taking the viceroy hostage isn't enough, they need to disable the control ship as well. The B2s fire on Mace even though he is in the box next to their leaders.

Decapitation strikes... usually don't work, whoever you kill is just replaced. If they get into the box and put lightsabres to everyone's throats, that is just a standoff. The CIS forces aren't just going to let them go. So they can theoretically massacre everyone...great, then they get massacred in return, war kicks off with the dead as martyrs.


To where?

The arena, where he can then take another exit.


What? We've seen Jedi+Clones in the movie, what do you suggest they should have done differently?


Nothing. It didn't go well for them, but was still the only option with the chance of a win.

[Grim Portent]

In the case of the CIS a decapitation strike might actually work. Not necessarily at stopping the war outright, but certainly reducing the scale of it.

Several of the megacorps/corpo-states are implied to have been divided on the war, internal corporate politics being what they are, if it became likely that whoever succeeded Nute Gunray would face a similar death then I imagine the Trade Federation would pull out of the CIS, as would the Techno Union for Wat Tambor and so forth. Your profit margins don't matter if you're dead. They're cowards, and also the ones bankrolling the CIS army. With them gone a lot of their privately hired admirals and generals go with them.

No Admiral Trench without the Corporate Alliance, no Grievous without the Banking Clan (is his origin still canon?) and so on. A lot of the commanders of the CIS were essentially on loan from the various corporation-states. The others were mostly local militia commanders or random businessmen who fancied their hand at command. Big loss in raw numbers, and a loss of several skilled commaners.

Killing Dooku would make him a martyr, which would galvanise seperatist sentiment in a lot of systems, maybe even spur a few otherwise loyal or neutral systems to side with the CIS, but it would also remove the only viable leader of the CIS. Without Dooku to be a shoe in for the Seperatist Premier there's no one who can pose as a legitimate democratically elected leader and play around with the corpo-state backers behind the scenes while also being under the thumb of Palpatine. You'd have a much more disjointed and gridlocked CIS leadership as worlds with vastly different priorities try to negotiate a common leader.

Putting all the pawns in the right place took several decades (arguably centuries or millennia when you factor in the Sith who first made inroads into the systemic corruption Palpatine works within) and replacing them might take a bit of work. Would some pawns have a replacement ready to step in? Sure, but there's a reason they aren't already the ones in charge of their respective faction of the CIS.


A total decapitation strike still wasn't exactly smart*, but the Jedi are more used to dealing with things like pirates and mafias lead by singular domineering personalities, who do surrender (in Star Wars) once their leader is held at saberpoint. Unless there's a ringleader style underling waiting to take command, taking out the leader pretty much always works. Western/Samurai movie rules in a sense.

The corpo-states/megacorps mostly play by these rules as well, funnily enough. When the various leaders are imprisoned they aren't just replaced, they get plea bargains, make concessions to the Republic and go back to working with the CIS the moment the pressure is off. Gunray, Tambor and Poggle all get imprisoned and later released by the Republic as I recall, rather than having someone else take their place while they serve their sentence. Republic penal system is about as effective as the one in Gotham it seems, it serves narrative above all else.


*I'd have used those legendary Jedi reflexes, fly a few speeders in, snag the hostages and try to rapidly grab a few corporate heads and get out. Make arrangements with the Judicial Forces to blockade Geonosis as soon as possible, they'd probably arrive too late to stop Dooku and the remaining CIS leaders from escaping, but you have Jedi in FTL capable ships, track them to their new locations and get the slow rusty gears of the Republic turning. Bundling Gunray and Tambor into speeders like a pack of bounty hunters might not be dignified, but it would be a damn sight more practical than trying to arrest them on foot.

'Course the Jedi also don't summarily execute people, especially unarmed ones, so holding people hostage outright, or attempting a decapitation strike on mostly unarmed people, was a damn stupid idea of them. How are you going to make Poggle stand down his Geonosians when you wont actually follow through with chopping his head off if he doesn't?

[Sapphire Guard]

This is where we get into fanfic territory.

Determining what Mace should have done is dependent on stuff we don't have the answers to.

How much knowledge does he have, how much time does he have, how much equipment does he have? If he needs speeders (and knows he needs them) does he have time to get them? Are their air defences he has to worry about? Does he know exactly where the prisoners are or do they have to do scouting first? You can make whatever outcome you want based on the answers to those questions, which any conclusion has to make up.

Come to think of it, most of the Separatist Council aren't in the VIP box in the first place. It's Dooku, Nute, Poggle, Jengo, Boba, and other TF guy. Jengo and Poggle can fly, and Dooku can jump down to the arena if he has to, so the most likely prize is Nute. The rest of the Council is already elsewhere.

Per TCW, Poggle isn't even that important, he's taking orders from a Queen, but even if we leave out other materials, we have the following.

Dooku: Fantastic catch, but very difficult catch. He's the best duellist in the galaxy. Alive, he's super valuable, dead he is a martyr, and war kicks off, but without a very capable leader.

Poggle: Planetary leader, running a factory. Important, but slippery (can fly). Unclear how replaceable he is.

Jengo: skilled fighter, but not on Jedi level. Also can fly away if he has to.

Boba: Useful leverage on Jengo, otherwise not very important. Easy catch.

Nute: Head of very powerful TF, good prize, not too hard to catch. Might be replaced with someone who wants to make peace. Might be replaced by someone more dangerous. Just have to roll the dice on that.

There ain't no easy 'I win' button here.

[Keltest]

Its worth pointing out that a lot of the Separatist leadership are pawns of the Sith, and to a point the Jedi know that. Those specific individuals are important because of that, and even if they get replaced, then the Separatist leadership is no longer working directly for the Sith to advance their aims, even if the war in general still does that to a point.

[Sapphire Guard]

Theoretically, but they don't know who can be replaced and who can't, so it is just a gamble. When Maul was cut in half, Sidious was not only able to keep his plans on track but upgrade his apprentice to the much more dangerous Dooku.

[Fyraltari]

Season 6, Episode 3: Fugitive

We open with Shaak-Ti and Nala Se telling Fives about Palpatine's decision to have the "tumor", as well as all the data they have sent to Coruscant for analysis. Fives is to stay on Kamino, though. As she speaks, Shaak-Ti puts the tumor into one of two briefcases that are just laying around. Nala Se antagonizes Fives, saying he migth have killed Tup by removing the tumor. He replies that she was going to kill him anyway. The Jedi hands the briefcase to a nearby droid and orders for it and the dat to be sent to the Jedi Temple. The Kaminoan interjects that the oreders are for them to be sent to the Grand Medical Facility, not the Temple. Shakk Ti says it will get there... eventually. Nala Se protests and Shaak tells her to take a hike. Another Kminoan walks in flanked by two clones, Fives has a last physical to pass before being cleared to go back to the 501st. As he leaves, Fives spots the droid switching the briefcase he was handed with the spare one behind Shaak ti's back, but says nothing. Should have.

En route to his physical, Fives cross paths with AZI (and his escort). AZI asks if he is going to be reprogrammed too. Fives says he's going back to the front lines, but AZI says he's heard Fives's mind is to be wiped and that he'd be permanently assigned to sanitation on Kamino. He hopes they'll still be friend after their respective memory erasures. Cute. Fives... takes it about as well as you'd expect. By which I mean he tackles the doctor accompanying him and knocks out all four clonetroopers present. And you thought it was just stormtrooper armour that sucked! AZI is just as shocked as the various onlookers in the corridor. In the time it takes for Fives to tell him that neither of them are going to have their minds wiped, the doctor punches an alarm and they have to leg it. "Are we escaping?" That got a chuckle. Fives runs back to the room he was held in and gets the tumor back, determined to find out what Nala Se is hiding.

The two of them make their way to a hangar (apparently throught the good ol' trick of walking purposefully but calmly like you have nothing to fear) full of spherical ships. A pilot tries to tell Fives that all ships are locked down during emergencies but he punches him in the gut, which knocks him out. How hard did he punch? He's only got the time to apologize to his brother before Shaak Ti, Nala Se and a squad arrive. As they watch the two of them take off, Ti orders the ship tracked and clarifies that she wants him taken alive. Inside the ship, above the ocean, Fives asks AZI if he can float. He can and has several survival modes. Fives puts the autopilot on and opens the door. He has no intention of leaving the facility (where would he even go, anyway?), the pod is just a diversion to draw attention away from their snooping around. Pretty clever. The droid has more questions, but Fives throws him into the water. Fives starts swimming, but AZI reveals one of his survival modes: he unfolds handles out of his back and positions his hands under Fives's feet, allowing him to function as a kind of small jetbike. That's a pretty neat idea, and it makes sense for a world covered in water. Congrats.

Meanwhile Nala reports to Tyranus, whose face is even less hidden that last time. Like, she has to know it's Dooku at this point. She tells him about fives stealing the chip. §This worries Tyranus: first a malfunction and then a renegade? How reliable are the clones, really? Se insists the malfunctionning chip is a simple statistical outlier, and blame the renegade on the Jedi inspiring "creative thinking" in some clones, enabling divergent behaviour. But she is certain that won't interfere with Protocol 66. Tyranus stresses again that the chip must be recovered before the Jedi find out what it does. Under the city, Fives climbs in via a service ladder and says he's going to need a change of clothes. Shouldn't be hard finding something his size. And of course, wearing clothes that don't mean "escaped medical patient" should make him much harder (https://darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0280.html) to find. AZI tells a trooper he saw the renegade clone head into a storage room and, in less time than it takes to say "punched from the back", Fives's got a shiny new armour. Next order of business: find a way to analyze the "tumor".

AZI takes him to the genetic records hall. There are recordings of the genome of every being the Kaminoans have ever cloned. Seems like a bit of an overkill, but okay. Using that they can match the "tumor"'s DNA with that of Jango Fett and see if it is naturally occurring. They place the tumor into a receptacle. No match found. What's more it's only partially organic: which means that that thing didn't grow, it was planted in Tup's body. Which in turn means that this isn't accident or an illness, it was deliberate. In the command center (I guess), Ti and Se are told that there hasn't been any unauthorized departure form the planet... and that someone is acessing the Jango Fett's genotype. Doesn't take a genius to figure out what's happening. Ti orders the room evacuated... quietly. Still, Fives immediately notices that everyone is leaving the room. AZI confirms that there are exits other than the main door: emergency hatches are present in every major room in case of flooding. They take the chip and leave, again, just as Shaak Ti walks in. CLones start firing stun-bolts at them, and miss. Fives is shooting live ammo, though. The two rogues get through a hatch and AZI welds it shut before the other can follow them through. Se orders every hatch watched.

AZI tells Fices that they should find out at what stage of development Tup received the implant, and for what purpose exactly. He can tell it's an organic (well mostly organic, I guess) chip, but not its function. Fives worries whether he also has a chip. His scans showed nothing, but they didn't find Tup's until they did the level 5 one, so that proves nothing. Fives knows he has one in his skull, and he wants it out (can't say that I blame him, that kind of thing would freak me the **** out). AZI is reluctant because of how dangerous of a surgery it is, but Fives trusts him, even if Tup died just after AZI removed his chip. I like that depsite both characters being unable to emote (AZI is a droid and Fives is wearing a face-concealing helmet), clever camera angles and good voice-acting make you understand exactly what both are feeling. AZI agrees ad they head to an operating theater (no clone guarding the exit hatch for some reason). Once there, AZI lies to Fives about an injection not hurting a bit and gets to work.

There's a superfluous, but pretty cool, shot of two Kaminoans riding giant flying fish under the city in bad weather. In the command center, Ti and Se realize Fives and AZI slipped past them. But the Jedi realizes they're not trying to escape, but searching for something. What? She doesn't know. Fives wakes up with a freshly shaven head and a light on his skull. AZI did find an identical chip in Fives's head. Identical, but much healthier-looking. Tup's is decolored and full of holes, explaining the malfunction. This does not prove that the breakdown was an isolated incindent, though. And they have no idea what might happen to Fives without his chip. Fives wants to know if more clones have those and when they were implanted. AZI can tell that the most likely time it happened was back when they were embryos (I'm guessing he can tell from the way it fits with the brain?). Fives decide to check the embryos.

They cross a classroom full of cadets, supervised by two kaminoans. Fives tells AZI to act normal, which he interprets as doing this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi9VqKv5UkI), immediately raising suspicions. Fives thinks that was normal "for you, AZI", but the instructors immediately signal Nala Se, who fails to leave the command center unnoticed by Shaak Ti. in the gestation room (or whatever it's actually called) AZI brings up a few clones "in the earliest stages of development". Those aren't embryos. tThey're fetuses, alright, but they're so big, it looks like they'll be ready to be "born" in a couple of days. Also, baby clones don't have an umbilical cord. Does that mean clones don't have navels? No chip. But it is there in stage 3 fetuses. In all of them. And that's when Nala Se walks in. Fives points hi gun at her and demands an explanation. She says that the chip is a "structural inhibitor chip" meant to keep them from becoming aggressive, like Jango Fett. For a lie she had to come up with on the spot, that's not bad. It can't hold up to scrutiny (especially since aggressiveness isn't that bad a trait in a soldier), but still, pretty good, especially with a gun to her head. She adds that it was implanted there on orders from Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas. Fives dodesn't take very well the notion that "The Jedi... did this to us?" Nala says that this kind of inhibitor chips aren't uncommon.

Enter Shaak Ti and a couple clones (are those always the same?). Fives takes Nala Se hostage. He tells Shaak Ti about the inhibitor chip "the Jedi" have implanted in the clones and that Tup's mlfunctionned, making him lose control. AZI shows her the evidence (that is Tup's chip). Shaak Ti wants to know what happens to Tup to get his chip in this state. Fives doesn't care: Tup's chip made him dangerous, therefore all clones should have their chips removed or risk being compromised. Nala Se insists it's an isolated incident and that removing Tup's chip killed him. Fives retorts that he's had his removed and he's still alive. AZI shows his chip, saying neither it nor fives are malfunctioning. Se claims Fives made himself a threat by removing his chip and must be terminated immediately. While he has a gun to her head. Say what you want about her, but she's pretty brave. Or very dumb. Fives yells that he's not a piece of hardware, he's a living being. Dude, AZI is right there. Also, might as well uses this (https://youtu.be/nW-bFGzNMXw?t=42) here. Se retorts that he is Kaminoan property. Ti corrects her: he's property of the Republic. (So I guess she was full of it last episode and they're not on loan?) Therefore, it's up to Shaak Ti to decide whether Fives is danger or not. She wants him to go to Corsucant with her and tell his story to the Chancellor. Nala begs her to reconsider. To no avail. She insists on coming along too, then. Shaak Ti accepts.

Fives thanks the general for believing in him. "It's not a matter of belief, Fives. It is simply the right thing to do." That makes no sense. Fives thanks AZI and, as he's being sedated and carried away, tells him he'll see him on the other side. "The other side of what? -Héhéhé. Ah, droids..." End of the episode

So, AZI is still going to be mind-wiped, right? Poor guy.

I really liked this episode. It had a nice pacing and some real development for Fives with regards to his self-understanding as person instead of just a soldier. AZI made for a good comic relief, in that his comedy stemmed mostly from his "dorky" personality but he was still very useful apart from that. If I had to point out one downside, it'd be that the episode serves mostly for the character to catch up with what the audience already knows.

Once more the episode showcases how similar the clones and the droids' respective situation are, but refuses to go as far as to equate them.

Shaak Ti seems all too accepting of Nala Se's explanations at the end. Not pointing out the switcheroo, that she wasn't informed about the chip, that the Jedi didn't order it or that Nala Se lied about not knowing what the "tumor" was. I'm hoping she will bring that up next episode.

Next up: Orders... All 66 of them? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88P8fypjKZk)

[Keltest]

In Legends canon, it actually was a deliberate thing to reduce the aggression and independence from Jango Fett in regular clone troopers. His baseline clones resulted in highly skilled ARC-trooper types that were in fact so much like Jango that they were basically unable to function as soldiers (at least by the Kaminoans' standards) because they werent in it for a cause and werent getting anything material out of the war to motivate them, taking a specific paternal bond with some of their trainers to get them to cooperate at all.

Basically, they wanted soldiers, not assassins.

[Fyraltari]

Ew, biological determinism.

[Keltest]

Ew, biological determinism.

As opposed to the literal biological mind control chips?

At least this has some basis in our current understanding of biology. We already know certain hormones can affect your mood and behavior in some ways.

[Fyraltari]

As opposed to the literal biological mind control chips?
That already makes more sense than "this man's DNA makes it impossible to care for a cause."

[Keltest]

That already makes more sense than "this man's DNA makes it impossible to care for a cause."

It wasnt his DNA as such, it was the Kaminoans training methods. They made the ultimate commandos, but they couldn't wrap their brains around the idea that a strongly independent person needs to be convinced of a cause rather than just told its correct, and that trust is earned, not handed out with a rank and title.

Take a man, give him skills and abilities like Jango Fett, give him the best weapons and armor you can afford. Teach him to kill and be violent without hesitation or remorse. Then tell him youre going to stick him in the middle of a conflict that has a high chance of getting him killed. What do you think he's going to do if he's fiercely independent and aggressive?

[Grim Portent]

To an extent it was Jango's DNA. There are biological factors that impact your personality, especially as relates to more basic things like aggression or patience. Not the be-all and end-all, it was also the training, random variation and a whole bunch of other stuff, but that a few thousand identical twins raised in the same* circumstances simultaneously would turn out similar isn't far fetched.

The Kaminoans took a bunch of identical people with the same genetic predispositions, put them in an identical military focused training system, and got the same or similar results in almost all subjects. The early clones had no unexpected or external infuences beyond interaction with each other and their trainers. They had also tinkered with their genes to make them a little stronger and tougher IIRC.

If you took one of those prototype clones and raised it in a loving household where it was treated as a person rather than a lab experiment and so on, I wouldn't at all be surprised to see them come out as someone who bakes for a living, or tailors clothes or designs speeders. The kaminoans chucked them all into an abusive military upbringing and were surprised to consistently get rebellious people rather than obedient organic-droids. Though the Kaminoan threshold for 'rebellious' is very strict, these are people who cull their own population based on eye colour after all.


For draft 2 they toned down the parts of the human body that make sapient life independantly minded, and stuck in control chips with coded override orders for emergencies (and scheming of course.) Early on in deployment the clones had very little imagination and didn't push back against stupid orders, it took some time for them to grow into the people the Kaminoans had tried to stop them from becoming.


*In as much as any circumstances can be identical. Kamino is a very controlled environment, but even so some training batches would have had different interactions with instructors than others no matter how much oversight and professionalism is involved.

[Keltest]

To an extent it was Jango's DNA. There are biological factors that impact your personality, especially as relates to more basic things like aggression or patience. Not the be-all and end-all, it was also the training, random variation and a whole bunch of other stuff, but that a few thousand identical twins raised in the same* circumstances simultaneously would turn out similar isn't far fetched.

The Kaminoans took a bunch of identical people with the same genetic predispositions, put them in an identical military focused training system, and got the same or similar results in almost all subjects. The early clones had no unexpected or external infuences beyond interaction with each other and their trainers. They had also tinkered with their genes to make them a little stronger and tougher IIRC.

If you took one of those prototype clones and raised it in a loving household where it was treated as a person rather than a lab experiment and so on, I wouldn't at all be surprised to see them come out as someone who bakes for a living, or tailors clothes or designs speeders. The kaminoans chucked them all into an abusive military upbringing and were surprised to consistently get rebellious people rather than obedient organic-droids. Though the Kaminoan threshold for 'rebellious' is very strict, these are people who cull their own population based on eye colour after all.


For draft 2 they toned down the parts of the human body that make sapient life independantly minded, and stuck in control chips with coded override orders for emergencies (and scheming of course.) Early on in deployment the clones had very little imagination and didn't push back against stupid orders, it took some time for them to grow into the people the Kaminoans had tried to stop them from becoming.


*In as much as any circumstances can be identical. Kamino is a very controlled environment, but even so some training batches would have had different interactions with instructors than others no matter how much oversight and professionalism is involved.

Draft 3 actually.

Draft 1 was the so-called "Null class ARC troopers," 6 clones who were, shockingly, so resistant to being tortured into commandos that they overtly tried to violence their way out of it as children. The Kaminoans were going to just kill them and start again, but one of the sergeants that had been hired to train them basically took them and raised them as his kids, which is why they were still more or less part of the military.

Draft 2 were 100 Alpha ARC troopers, who had similar attitude problems but were toned down a bit so that they would respond to a hierarchy.

[Mechalich]

In Legends canon, it actually was a deliberate thing to reduce the aggression and independence from Jango Fett in regular clone troopers. His baseline clones resulted in highly skilled ARC-trooper types that were in fact so much like Jango that they were basically unable to function as soldiers (at least by the Kaminoans' standards) because they werent in it for a cause and werent getting anything material out of the war to motivate them, taking a specific paternal bond with some of their trainers to get them to cooperate at all.

Basically, they wanted soldiers, not assassins.

Not just in Legends, the original explanation (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXLQaVgCP_Q) given to Obi-Wan explains that the clones were genetically modified to be 'less independent' and 'more docile' than than Jango Fett.

[Grim Portent]

The difference between Legends and Canon seems to be* that in Canon the clones were always modified for obedience. No rebellious prototypes.**

Which given the production timeline involved, makes more sense. If it takes ten years to grow and train a clone trooper you don't have enough time between Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones for Kamino to make multiple different prototypes. By the time they would know it was necessary to make the clones more obedient they wouldn't have time to grow the new batches.

Kaminoan culture being what it is, they probably make all their clones docile as a matter of course. They're not exactly people persons, so having any and all projects shut up and do what they're told is probably high on their priority list.


*Not an expert on all the comics and books and such, so there might be something I'm missing, but all the references to the prototype clones seem to be Legends material.

**Not until someone decides to bring the idea of Nulls or Alpha-ARCs forwards anyway.

[Fyraltari]

It wasnt his DNA as such, it was the Kaminoans training methods. They made the ultimate commandos, but they couldn't wrap their brains around the idea that a strongly independent person needs to be convinced of a cause rather than just told its correct, and that trust is earned, not handed out with a rank and title.

Take a man, give him skills and abilities like Jango Fett, give him the best weapons and armor you can afford. Teach him to kill and be violent without hesitation or remorse. Then tell him youre going to stick him in the middle of a conflict that has a high chance of getting him killed. What do you think he's going to do if he's fiercely independent and aggressive?
Okay, but all that's saying is that the kaminoans just suck at raising soldiers, nothing to do with the biology. If you raise a child in a controlled environment to be obedient, you get an obedient adult, it's not that complicated.

To an extent it was Jango's DNA. There are biological factors that impact your personality, especially as relates to more basic things like aggression or patience. Not the be-all and end-all, it was also the training, random variation and a whole bunch of other stuff, but that a few thousand identical twins raised in the same* circumstances simultaneously would turn out similar isn't far fetched.

The Kaminoans took a bunch of identical people with the same genetic predispositions, put them in an identical military focused training system, and got the same or similar results in almost all subjects. The early clones had no unexpected or external infuences beyond interaction with each other and their trainers. They had also tinkered with their genes to make them a little stronger and tougher IIRC.
Of course the clones would turn out to have all mostly the same personality (though social dynamics would amplify every little divergence) but the notion they would have the same personality as a guy who had a completely different upbringing just because they were cloned from him is patently absurd.


If you took one of those prototype clones and raised it in a loving household where it was treated as a person rather than a lab experiment and so on, I wouldn't at all be surprised to see them come out as someone who bakes for a living, or tailors clothes or designs speeders. The kaminoans chucked them all into an abusive military upbringing and were surprised to consistently get rebellious people rather than obedient organic-droids.
Well yeah, militaries are known to create conformity, not rebelliousness.



Kaminoan culture being what it is, they probably make all their clones docile as a matter of course.
Kaminoan cultures need not matter. They are paid to deliver a product (people) to do a job, if their product refused to do the job expected of them, they wouldn't stay in business very long. Like, with the exception of people wanting a child or three of their own, the cloners' clients are looking for slaves, their education program ought to be very good at making their wards obedient.

[Grim Portent]

Bear in mind, the Kaminoans are not good with people, not even each other. They're emotionally cold, amoral, and dismissive of their underlings.

The training they put the clones through has a history of not working well on people IRL, overly strict upbringings tend to result in rebellious children. Humans need certain things to develop properly and the Kaminoans met the needs they considered important for soldiers, but the Kaminoans don't appreciate the need for stuff like playing, or having friends, or freedom.

There's raising a kid to be obedient, which sometimes works, and there's training a kid to be a robot, which never works. The Kaminoans do the latter, because they don't understand the psychology of other species and use gene tampering and bio-mechanical equipment to compensate for the failures of their methodology, and they still don't get the results they really want.

[Mechalich]

Kaminoan cultures need not matter. They are paid to deliver a product (people) to do a job, if their product refused to do the job expected of them, they wouldn't stay in business very long. Like, with the exception of people wanting a child or three of their own, the cloners' clients are looking for slaves, their education program ought to be very good at making their wards obedient.

The clients aren't generally looking for slaves, they are looking for shortcuts to duplicate specialized skills. The ideal case is when there's rapid industrial change and there's not enough people with the relevant skills in a field that needs to suddenly expand by 10,000x. Especially when the process is limited to some rare species that only has a few million members and maybe a literal handful of individuals properly trained in the relevant task. If you suddenly need 10,000 copies of 'that guy over there,' cloning is ideally suited to provide.

Now, in Star Wars, 'soldiering' is a specialized skill. Specifically, in obedient to the narrative laws of space combat - which says that you can't have nothing but machines fighting machines or the audience will almost instantly zone out - living beings have been mandated by fiat to make better soldiers than droids in the aggregate in Star Wars (highly advanced droids like HK or IG units are just as good as the best organic combatants, but apparently that's not economical). The Kaminoans presumably have a long history of producing batches of clone soldiers, probably optimized for various exotic environments that the various mercenary groups of the galaxy can't handle well, ex. sometimes you need an army that breathes methane and operates primarily in micro-gravity. The GAR is a massive outlier both in scale, but also in that the Jango Fett Clones are simply slightly modified Humans.


There's raising a kid to be obedient, which sometimes works, and there's training a kid to be a robot, which never works. The Kaminoans do the latter, because they don't understand the psychology of other species and use gene tampering and bio-mechanical equipment to compensate for the failures of their methodology, and they still don't get the results they really want.

Well, the portrait of the Kaminoans is highly inconsistent. As with most topics involving the Clone Wars, there's the Karen Traviss viewpoint, and then there's everyone else's. The Clones, as portrayed in TCW, seem to be pretty much exactly what Sidious wanted and the Kaminoans are justifiably proud of this. The Clones are more obedient than any natural human army ever would be, while still being extremely elite soldiers. The whole bio-chip thing is a bizarre complication that frankly doesn't really work. The original explanation, in which the Clones simply followed the contingency order - an order the Jedi knew existed - when it was given, was less complicated and made more sense. However, even though Legends allowed a number of clones to disobey that order, I think it was deemed overly dehumanizing to the clones, especially in the 'kid's show' context of TCW, and the bio-chip explanation was retconned into existence to shift the burden of blame from the clones themselves and more towards Sidious instead.

[Fyraltari]

The clients aren't generally looking for slaves, they are looking for shortcuts to duplicate specialized skills. The ideal case is when there's rapid industrial change and there's not enough people with the relevant skills in a field that needs to suddenly expand by 10,000x. Especially when the process is limited to some rare species that only has a few million members and maybe a literal handful of individuals properly trained in the relevant task. If you suddenly need 10,000 copies of 'that guy over there,' cloning is ideally suited to provide.

Yeah, those are slaves.

You think the people paying for 10, 000, let's say ship mechanics, will allow their purchase to go become painters, farmers, athletes or accountants? Of course not, they've bought them do a job and not have a say in which one.

[Keltest]

Yeah, those are slaves.

You think the people paying for 10, 000, let's say ship mechanics, will allow their purchase to go become painters, farmers, athletes or accountants? Of course not, they've bought them do a job and not have a say in which one.

I dont think the Kaminoans actually breed clones for anything other than individual projects like Boba Fett or mass warfare. From an ethical standpoint its kind of hard to say. Most clones are, so far as we see, like Captain Rex: there more or less voluntarily with the understanding that they did basically sign up for this. They get paid, have contracts, leave, all the regular army soldier stuff. But thats because the Kaminoans already weeded out most of the clones who would object, without the knowledge or endorsement of the Republic or Jedi.

So the Kaminoans bred an army of slaves, sold them, and they were effectively set free and put under a more mundane contract.

[Fyraltari]

I dont think the Kaminoans actually breed clones for anything other than individual projects like Boba Fett or mass warfare.
Based on what? I'm sure there are plenty of places that would be interested in buying a workforce.

From an ethical standpoint its kind of hard to say.
It's hard to say whether or not it's ethical to buy people?

Most clones are, so far as we see, like Captain Rex: there more or less voluntarily with the understanding that they did basically sign up for this. They get paid, have contracts, leave, all the regular army soldier stuff. But thats because the Kaminoans already weeded out most of the clones who would object, without the knowledge or endorsement of the Republic or Jedi.

So the Kaminoans bred an army of slaves, sold them, and they were effectively set free and put under a more mundane contract.

Are they allowed to quit?
And before you respond, take a moment to consider that in this very episode, Shaak-Ti calls Fives "property of the Republic" and that they were considering terminating him with no trial whatsoever, not even a court-martial.

[Mechalich]

Yeah, those are slaves.

You think the people paying for 10, 000, let's say ship mechanics, will allow their purchase to go become painters, farmers, athletes or accountants? Of course not, they've bought them do a job and not have a say in which one.

That's defining slavery very broadly. Forcing people to take a specific job is a restriction of civil rights, yes, but it's not necessarily that such people won't be paid, have freedom of movement, the ability to form families and all the other things that normal people are able to do. Yes, most clones will be manufactured with an obligatory contractual obligation, the soldiers of the GAR are certainly an example of this, but it's more like space fantasy version of indentured servitude than slavery. The GAR clones are also a good example of this in that they are eventually discharged and allowed to go about their lives (admittedly brutally shortened) as they wish.

[Keltest]

Based on what? I'm sure there are plenty of places that would be interested in buying a workforce.

It's hard to say whether or not it's ethical to buy people?


Are they allowed to quit?
And before you respond, take a moment to consider that in this very episode, Shaak-Ti calls Fives "property of the Republic" and that they were considering terminating him with no trial whatsoever, not even a court-martial.

Shaak-Ti is speaking to a Kaminoan. Moral arguments would fall on deaf ears. "You cant do it because youre under contract and we wont let you" is an argument they will get.

As far as quitting, soldiers are generally not allowed to "quit" in the middle of active deployment from my understanding. This needs to come with a bit "I AM NOT A MILITARY PERSON IN ANY WAY" warning, but I believe once you get sent out, youre there for the duration unless you get injured or get yourself kicked out. What happens to the clones after the war is over and they arnet obligated to be there is something the series has grappled with more than a little, but the general impression it gives is that they are allowed to retire once their tours of duty are over, and Rebels certainly doesnt treat the clones as criminals for not being on active duty any more.

[Fyraltari]

That's defining slavery very broadly.
Treating human beings (and fantastical/alien moral equivalents) as property. That's what slavery is.


Forcing people to take a specific job is a restriction of civil rights, yes, but it's not necessarily that such people won't be paid, have freedom of movement, the ability to form families and all the other things that normal people are able to do. Yes, most clones will be manufactured with an obligatory contractual obligation, the soldiers of the GAR are certainly an example of this, but it's more like space fantasy version of indentured servitude than slavery. The GAR clones are also a good example of this in that they are eventually discharged and allowed to go about their lives (admittedly brutally shortened) as they wish.
Oh, wow, indentured servitude. That's sooooooo much better.

****'s sake.

Edit:

Shaak-Ti is speaking to a Kaminoan. Moral arguments would fall on deaf ears. "You cant do it because youre under contract and we wont let you" is an argument they will get.
Oh about "murder's illegal"? You think they'd have got that?


As far as quitting, soldiers are generally not allowed to "quit" in the middle of active deployment from my understanding. This needs to come with a bit "I AM NOT A MILITARY PERSON IN ANY WAY" warning, but I believe once you get sent out, youre there for the duration unless you get injured or get yourself kicked out.
They weren't given a choice about joining either.

What happens to the clones after the war is over and they arnet obligated to be there is something the series has grappled with more than a little, but the general impression it gives is that they are allowed to retire once their tours of duty are over, and Rebels certainly doesnt treat the clones as criminals for not being on active duty any more.
Why would the Rebels treat the clones as criminals for not serving the Empire? :smallconfused:

[Keltest]

Why would the Rebels treat the clones as criminals for not serving the Empire? :smallconfused:

Because if theyre slaves that would make them deserters automatically?

[Fyraltari]

Because if theyre slaves that would make them deserters automatically?

What?

A) The clones were kicked out of the Army at the end of the war, weren't they?
B) Most of the Rebellions is made of Imperial deserters like Han Solo, Wedge Antilles or Biggs Darklighter, why would they care?


Like the Kaminoans sell people, that they breed those people first doesn't make it not slavery, that's a pretty simple concept.

[hamishspence]

Why would the Rebels treat the clones as criminals for not serving the Empire? :smallconfused:

It's the Rebels animated TV series that's being referred to here:


What happens to the clones after the war is over and they arnet obligated to be there is something the series has grappled with more than a little, but the general impression it gives is that they are allowed to retire once their tours of duty are over, and Rebels certainly doesnt treat the clones as criminals for not being on active duty any more.

in the episode of Season 2 where Ezra meets up with several retired clone commandos, and tries to convince them to come out of retirement.





A) The clones were kicked out of the Army at the end of the war, weren't they?

Most eventually, if not killed, became regarded as too old to fight, and allowed to leave. By ANH-era (novels) only a few are left still in service. I would speculate that those are the embryonic clones seen in AOTC - assuming cloning stopped completely shortly after ROTS, a clone aging at twice the normal rate should be in their late 30s or early 40s - perfect stormtrooper officer material.

[dancrilis]

Like the Kaminoans sell people, that they breed those people first doesn't make it not slavery, that's a pretty simple concept.

I think I largely agree with you but to test my thinking and to play a bit of devils advocate...

Phrasing it that way makes it seem pretty cut and dry but it may not capture the nuance of the situation and we don't really know what they are like with other projects or even if they have other projects, nor what they are like with new members of their own culture.

For instance if every Kaminoan is a clone and every Kaminoans is grown for a certain role and every Kaminoans does that role without significant complaint then within the society they have it could be argued that it isn't really a matter of slavery - more a society that practices life long conscription.

There is also an arguement as to if life long conscription is merely slavery regardless of how content the members of the sociey feel about it of course - but if life long conscription is slavery then is decade long conscription also slavery, what about year long, month long etc and if not what if the timeframe when forced labour moves from non-slavery to slavery.



A) The clones were kicked out of the Army at the end of the war, weren't they?


The Bad Batch might be worth reviewing after you finish The Clone Wars - it deals with a bit of this and the early days of the empire (and for the episodes that focus they are fairly decent, could perhaps focus more on that and less on the main characters and I don't think many would complain).

[Fyraltari]

Phrasing it that way makes it seem pretty cut and dry but it may not capture the nuance of the situation and we don't really know what they are like with other projects or even if they have other projects, nor what they are like with new members of their own culture.
They were cloners before they were asked to clone an army, that's for sure.
I can see four different reasons someone might want to buy clones:
1) Someone wants to have biological children but is unable to for some reason, like Jango Fett, himself. That one is probably the most ethical, but it can get muddier if the client has a more eugenistic bent, like Miranda and her father from Mass Effect.
2) A society is faced with some kind of demographic crisis (maybe there's been a plague or something) or need greater numbers to settle some planets or something. This is basically just a large-scale version of point 1).
3) Someone has a specific job they need filled. Be it a large amount lf factory workers, an army or something more specialized like a life-long bodyguard/loyal companion ir whatever. This is slavery pure and simple.
4) Someone wants spare organs that won't be rejected in case of accident. Partial clones, like a pair of lungs or a functional heart are fine, but full clones to be harvested (like in The Island) are obviously not. Unless there's a way to have them be born brain-dead maybe?



For instance if every Kaminoan is a clone and every Kaminoans is grown for a certain role and every Kaminoans does that role without significant complaint then within the society they have it could be argued that it isn't really a matter of slavery - more a society that practices life long conscription.
That's not consrciption, that's a caste system. I'm not overly fond of those, but they're not necessarily slavery. The main difference being that people aren't property in this example.


There is also an arguement as to if life long conscription is merely slavery regardless of how content the members of the sociey feel about it of course - but if life long conscription is slavery then is decade long conscription also slavery, what about year long, month long etc and if not what if the timeframe when forced labour moves from non-slavery to slavery.
Forced labour is a form of slavery, being temporary only makes it temporary slavery.


The Bad Batch might be worth reviewing after you finish The Clone Wars - it deals with a bit of this and the early days of the empire (and for the episodes that focus they are fairly decent, could perhaps focus more on that and less on the main characters and I don't think many would complain).

I'll watch The Bad Batch, but I probably won't review it.

[Fyraltari]

Season 6, Episode 4: Orders

Fives, Shaak Ti and Nala Se arrive at Coruscant. For some reason, Fives is strapped on to a stretcher which allows Nala Se to sneakily inject him with something. Good going, Shaak! The land at the grand Medical facility and Mas Amedda takes them to an operating room where Palpatine is waiting along with some Royal guards (I wonder if they're already called that?). By the way, this is clearly the same room Vader would get his armour in. Once assured that Ti kept this all secret, Palpatine has Fives unshackled and asks him to tell him what he thinks is going on. Fives and Shaak Ti show him the chips and explain he believe them to be the cause of Tup's madness. Nala intervenes, saying the chips are to control clone aggressiveness and are placed there for the clones' own good. Fives takes exception to that. Nala Se points out that they don't know what caused Tup's chip to fail, it might still be a virus. And that fives taking out his own chip makes him a risk. Fives insists there's some sort of cover-up by the Separatists or someone else, that the chips make clones more violent, not less which is why Tup killed Tiplar. Palps point out that a Separatist plot from 10 years before the war doesn't sound very likely. Shaak Ti agrees. Palpatine says it might be best for Fives to talk to Palpatine alone (with his bodyguards, of course). Amedda and the women leave. Sidious leans evilly towards Fives. "Now, where were we?"

Noise come out of the operation room, yells and gunshots. Shaak Ti runs in to see Palpatine laying on the ground and Fives punching out a bodyguard and pointing a weapon at the chancellor. She Force-pushes him and he runs away. Palpatine exclaims that "he tried to kill me! It was so sudden!" The Jedi runs after the rogue clone while Sidious hands the chips to Nala Se, telling her to keep them safe. Fives runs into the building's main hall pushing away various nurses, orderlies and patients. Shaak Ti orders the blast doors to be closed. Why does a hospital have blast doors? Fives trips and falls but still manages to lunge through in extremis while Shaak Ti ends up closed off from pursuing him. You know, just once, I'd like to see a "close the blast doors" moment that actually works.

At the Temple, Anakin has a hard time believing Fives would do something like that. Shaak-Ti explains the chip-corrupting-virus theory and that Fives feels like he's the victim of a plot. Holo-Windu explains that the Chancellor is safe in his apartments within the Senate while every clone and security force on the planet are hunting Fives. However the Jedi were not asked to help. Anakin finds that odd. Windu wants for the Jedi to investigate undercover and that begins with making sure fives isn't immediately killed. Anakin volunteers to investigate, Fives was one of his men, he'll trust him and Rex. Shaak Ti warns him: without the chip, Fives may be a completely different person now.

In a random street, Fives walks into a cab and ask to go to 79's, a clone bar. The cab driver tries for some chitchat, saying a didn't know clones could have fun (but he knew 79's was a clone bar?). Fives tells him no-one knows much about the clones. Whent he driver says he likes mystery, Fives (getting angry) asks if he knows the one about the people engineered to kill their best friends and leaders without even knowing about it. He does actually, cab drivers hear stories like that all the time! Fives just sulks. Once there, Fives tells the driver to foot his bill to the Republic. Three, utterly wasted, clones find that hilarious and laugh at the driver's anger, telling him he's paying for them (I think they mean via his taxes?) and throw empty bottles at his cab when he leaves, telling them their mother was a droid (not exactly wrong, I suppose). Fives and the three of them head back inside and Fives borrows his hat from a corporal, using it to hide his tatoo (the only real way to tell him apart from one of his brothers). Inside, we can see that the bar/night-club is indeed mostly populated by clones, although there are a handful of non-humans and droids here and there. It's interesting to see that the clones do get paid, at least.

While Fives' plan was presumably to hide like a needle in haystack for a while, that changes when he recognizes two of the patrons: Kicks and Jesse from the 501st. Fortunately for him, Kicks heads to the toilets (looking a the sign it looks the GFFA has three types of bathroom: human, jawa and hutt. Outside the bar, clones with the red markings of Palpatine's guards land and walk in, intent on checking the IDs of everyone present. In the bathroom, Fives shows himself to Kicks. The 501st has just been recalled from Ringo Vinda and they've heard that Fives caught Tup's virus and tried to assassinate the Chancellor. Fives tells him he's being framed and that both the Clones and the Jedi are in great danger, he needs to talk to Rex or Skywalker. But he can't turn himself in or he'll disappear before he gets the chance to talk to them. He insists that the conspiracy goes to the highest levels so he must see them alone. Kicks agrees to contact Rex and Fives gives him coordinates for a meeting place. As he lives, he sees the red clones ask everyone about their IDs but manages to sneak out. He steals a speeder (don't need keys or anything apparently) and flies away, not noticing the probe droid following him.

Fives flies down through one of the big shafts and lands on level 18. However, as he steps down from his speeder, he almost collapse from whatever it was that Nala Se injected him with and the droid gets a positive match on his tatoo. Some time later, Skywalker and Rex land a gunship on the same platform and walk into a big, dark warehouse calling for Fives. Without showing himself, Fives thanks them for trusting them and asks them to put their weapons down. They do reluctantly. He insists he's not crazy but sounds less and less coherent with every sentence. He traps them inside a ray-shield (why is this thing there?) and shows himself, saying he just needs them to listen. He rants that he has proof of a "sinister plot" but doesn't really develop just repeating variations of this basic idea, clearly having trouble forming precise thoughts and coming across as a lunatic. When asked about his evidence, he says all clones have chips in their brain to make them do anything "someone" wants, even kill the Jedi. Anakin offers to give him some help and then sort everything out. Fives yells that they don't believe him and may be trying to trick him, just like the Chancellor tried to kill him. None of them notice a squad of red troopers closing in on them. Fives say Palpatine told him himself he orchestrated the plot, Anakin asks if that was before or after Fives tried to murder the head of state and that the Chancellor is incapable of doing that. that's the moment when the red clones step out of hiding and order Fives to surrender. Fives grabs one of Rex's gun and is immediately shot. The blast goes through his armour entirely leaving a burning hole. Do the red clones have some uber-powerful hadnguns or is the efficacy of these armours extremely variable?

The clones free Rex and Anakin. The dying Fives tells Rex this is bigger than any of them imagine while the other clones watch silently. Fives pulls Rex closer and say he only wanted to do his duty. Then, like Tups he says the mission and nightmares are over and dies. The other clones take off their helmets and respectfully surround their dead brother. Well, that's the end of Domino Squad. Until Bad Batch, I suppose.

The next day, Palpatine tells Anakin, Windu, Yoda and Shaak Ti that his personal doctors looked over both corpses and found something that Nala Se missed: a very rare parasite native to Ringo Binda and living in the water they drank. It caused the chips to decay. An special inoculation is being prepared for every clone in the Army to make sure this doesn't happen again. Windu declares the case closed and Palpatine agrees. It's time they focus back on the war as they inch closer and closer to... victory. On Serenno, Darth Tyranus tells Nala Se he's recieved the chips she sent him and congratulates her. Then he calls Sidious to tell him their plan has gone undiscovered, the clone is dead and the Jedi know nothing. No thanks to him, why is he telling him that and not the opposite? Palpatine orders him to destroy the evidence. Then he gloats that no one will be able to stop their plan to execute Order 66. What an unnatural turn of phrase. End of the episode.

This episode was rather good, if slightly repetitive the one where it's Ahsoka who has t escape pursuit throughout Coruscant. The main difference being dramatic irony: this time around we know exactly what's going on, which colours our perspective on the protagonists stumbling around.

Sad to see Fives go, he was a good one. Domino squad just had quite the rotten luck. I suppose that's war for you.

I'm disappointed with Shaak Ti she seems to have completely forgotten Nala se lying to her face about not knowing what the "tumor" was and trying to steal it. Also, I wonder what Palpatine told to Fives that made him conclude he was behind the plot... without turning the other clones in the room against him. And we never found out what happened to make Tup's chip malfunction or why he disappeared for several days on Ringo Binda.

So, my opinion of the mind-control chip. I think it'll come as no surprise to you that I don't like it. I feel like, quite literally, robs the characters of their agency. The story we were shown in the films is that the clones were ordered to kill the Jedi and they simply obeyed, because they've been raised their whole life to obey orders. That, to me, makes sense. The chip story introduces many problems: how could the kaminoans not immediately understand that it would be used to slaughter the Jedi? Wouldn't the clone, after its activation rebel upon discovering they've been brainwashed into murdering people they didn't want to kill?

It seems to me that this chip was introduced because the writers felt that by humanizing the clones as they had done in the show, by giving them personalities and character development, they made them incompatible with carrying out Order 66. But I don't think that's true. The clones we see the most, and the only ones who really got any development are the clones of the 501st, the only ones who were not ordered to kill their own Jedi. They were ordered to purge the Temple, yes, but those Jedi were practically strangers to them. They know Anakin wouldn't betray the Republic, but "the Jedi" in general? Sure, why not? Especially after their experience with Krell. The funny thing is, I suspect this was the angle the writers were on in the first seasons, as we've spent much more time with Rex than with Cody and Cody is shown to be much more by-the-book than Rex.

And I think that there's point to be made about the Empire coming into being in part because the military "followed orders" one that is scuttled by the soldiers being mindcontrolled.

So yeah, in my opinion, this is a poor fix to something that wasn't broken in the first place.

Next up: An old friend. Huh, I wonder who that is.

[TurboGhast]

When reading your thoughts on the mind control chips, I realized that the writers could've wrung out more drama from the clones being willing to follow Order 66 due to sheer military conditioning compared to them following it unwillingly due to a mind control chip. For example, a clone trying to convince their fellows to not go through with it and failing would hit harder if there wasn't a chip physically stopping them, and they just simply thought following the order was what they should do.

[Keltest]

When reading your thoughts on the mind control chips, I realized that the writers could've wrung out more drama from the clones being willing to follow Order 66 due to sheer military conditioning compared to them following it unwillingly due to a mind control chip. For example, a clone trying to convince their fellows to not go through with it and failing would hit harder if there wasn't a chip physically stopping them, and they just simply thought following the order was what they should do.

Theoretically the point of clones over droids is that they don't just blindly follow orders without considering all the angles. The bio-chips are a very crude way of squaring that circle, but something was needed, I think, to either alter the clones' perceptions or else override their judgement for order 66 pretty much as soon as you gave them personality beyond professionalism.

This is especially necessary because the clones seem to have recognized Palpatine as "Lord Sidious", which he would absolutely not have allowed without some sort of hard coded assurance of their loyalty.

[Grim Portent]

Yeah, it's just a band aid to plaster over the issues inherent in free willed creatures with a broad range of character development following such an order en masse, at least with the way Jedi/clone relations were shown. If clones and Jedi were more at odds but clones were shown to be near totally obedient to any superior anyway it would be reasonable to have them follow such an order as just part of their job, but when you have them question orders, defy commanders, befriend the Jedi and so on it makes the idea that most of them would gun down their own allies because of a single low information order rather a stretch. Because the clones are protagonists now they can't just handwave it as 'oh well, orders are orders,' and shoot other protagonists in the back without it having lots of effects on earlier writing, which would have been contradictory to the development they wanted clones to have.

The whole 'we are men, not droids' thing wouldn't mesh super well with the indoctrination or programming versions that used to be the explanation for the clones killing their Jedi en masse. Doesn't work super well with the chips either, but it gives the clones something tangible to do as a symbol of claiming their freedom.

[Sapphire Guard]

Yeah, the chip makes for a good short term plot for TCW, but isn't a great addition to the lore. Every Jedi will have individual clones they are close to, but there are millions of them, there didn't need to be a complex explanation. It's a feature of late TCW, coming up with fixes that don't need fixing and doing damage in the process.


You know, just once, I'd like to see a "close the blast doors" moment that actually works.

It happens in TPM, succcessfully keeping Obi and Qui away from the TF ship leaders.

[pendell]

The mind control chips are stupid, and take away from the fact that you don't need clones to Just Follow Orders their way into atrocity. Heavens knows we've seen enough of that in the real world.

I have books at home on nuclear submarines -- one of the anecdotes is that the Captain pretends to be insane as a drill, which forces the crew to take countermeasures and ensure the nuclear codes were safe. And of course anyone who remembers the movie War Games (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-T_uhQ0iE4) has seen the fact minuteman ICBM crew are issued side arms to take with them into their duty station.

That isn't fiction (https://www.quora.com/Do-USAF-missileers-really-carry-pistols).

And those sidearms aren't for use against external enemies breaking into these well-protected underground siloes.

This is also discussed in the fictional(?) short story Game (http://www.latexnet.org/~burnt/Game.html), by David Barthelme



Shotwell and I watch the console. Shotwell and I live under the ground and watch the console. If certain events take place upon the console, we are to insert our keys in the appropriate locks and turn our keys. Shotwell has a key and I have a key. If we turn our keys simultaneously the bird flies, certain switches are activated and the bird flies. But the bird never flies. In one hundred thirty-three days the bird has not flown. Meanwhile Shotwell and I watch each other. We each wear a .45 and if Shotwell behaves strangely I am supposed to shoot him. If I behave strangely Shotwell is supposed to shoot me. We watch the console and think about shooting each other and think about the bird. Shotwell's behavior with the jacks is strange. Is it strange? I do not know. Perhaps he is merely a selfish bastard, perhaps his character is flawed, perhaps his childhood was twisted. I do not know.

Each of us wears a .45 and each of us is supposed to shoot the other if the other is behaving strangely. How strangely is strangely? I do not know. In addition to the .45 I have a .38 which Shotwell does not know about concealed in my attaché case, and Shotwell has a .25 caliber Beretta which I do not know about strapped to his right calf. Sometimes instead of watching the console I pointedly watch Shotwell's .45, but this is simply a ruse, simply a maneuver, in reality I am watching his hand when it dangles in the vicinity of his right calf. If he decides I am behaving strangely he will shoot me not with the .45 but with the Beretta. Similarly Shotwell pretends to watch my .45 but he is really watching my hand resting idly atop my attaché case, my hand resting atop my attaché case, my hand. My hand resting idly atop my attaché case.


Contingency orders such as those given to the Grand Order of the Republic are last-resort desperation orders when things have gone into the pot. And Order 66 says, in essence: "Your Jedi commander has gone loco and is an immediate danger to you and to the Republic. Kill them RIGHT NOW."

Just like the dozens of other contingency orders which are why, metaphorically, you're carrying a pistol in a secure underground facility, unbreachable by anything short of a direct hit with a nuclear weapon. Because if things go really wrong you're expected to react in accordance with your training, without hesitation.

And if you are the sort of person who will hesitate in such a position, you'll be screened out and someone else put in who will do as they are trained.

Jedi are amazing beings -- but when they go bad, then you get a Darth Revan or an Exar Kun. If you're a clone, one of the things you're trained for, indoctrinated for, is the potential for a Jedi to go rogue and if this happens they have to be dealt with immediately and summarily.

After all, it's not like Jedi ever go rogue (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYBc9m3aPNc) or something.

A clone probably isn't aware of all this history. They've been brought up in the closed quarters of Kamino to be a weapon, a blade in the hand of the Republic. Go where they're sent, pull the trigger when told. Add to that, the average mental age of these clones is ten years old. How good were you at questioning orders of authority figures when you were that age? Especially if you've been brought up in a military barracks where compliance was the only way not to be disappeared by your minders?

So ... yeah. Truth is, if *I* were in that situation, and I received a lawful order from the legitimate command chain to immediately execute a Jedi superior, I'd probably do it too. I wouldn't know what was going on around me ; all I'd know is that if an order was coming down that channel with those orders, that the situation is far too serious to muck about with.

People who are willing to defy their conditioning and save the world (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Petrov) come around once a generation. And you'll notice he was punished for it too. I wish I was someone like him, but truth is, I'm not. Put in that situation, I'd do just what I was told because following orders is what keeps you alive in a war -- then have endless regret afterwards.

My grandfather came home from WWII and it took twenty years for him to crawl out of the bottle, and now I know why.

At any rate -- Fyraltari's right. You don't need mind-control chips, and you don't even need clones specifically bred for obedience. This story would have been just as plausible, and had more impact, if it had been carried out with ordinary human conscripts. Even otherwise decent human beings can be made to carry out the most horrible atrocities, given the right indoctrination and training.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Peelee]

The mind control chips are stupid, and take away from the fact that you don't need clones to Just Follow Orders their way into atrocity. Heavens knows we've seen enough of that in the real world.

George Lucas using additional content to remove nuance from his previously established stories? Say it ain't so!

[Fyraltari]

George Lucas using additional content to remove nuance from his previously established stories? Say it ain't so!

Literally unheard of. I am shocked, shocked!

[MCerberus]

Speaking of which the movie and thus show we're talking about exists kind of to... "fix" what Genndy drove off course in the Star Wars Vision (tm). Did we actually ever find out what happened between Tartakovsky and Lucas?

[Sapphire Guard]

Wow, George can now even be blamed for stuff that released after he left the company, written by someone else and directed by someone else.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Fyraltari
The clones were kicked out of the Army at the end of the war, weren't they?

Bad Batch is currently giving us an up-close and surprisingly nuanced view of this process.

For those who know their Hellenistic history, the treatment of the clones after the declaration of the Empire has a strong resemblance to how the Silver Shields were dealt with after the wars among Alexander’s generals.

In some cases, anyway; I’m thinking of the unusually good episode from the week before last. I doubt anyone involved with Bad Batch has read much Hellenistic history, but the parallels are striking to me.


Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard
Wow, George can now even be blamed for stuff that released after he left the company, written by someone else and directed by someone else.

He’s blamed for all manner of things, but doesn’t seem to get credit for any of the better aspects of what’s being produced.

[Sapphire Guard]

Yup, that's how it works. Star Wars fandom goes to extraordinary lengths to avoid crediting George with anything, while blaming him for every bad thing they can find or imagine.

[Peelee]

Wow, George can now even be blamed for stuff that released after he left the company, written by someone else and directed by someone else.

You know what, you're absolutely right. Let's put the blame where it properly belongs. So let's see, the chips were first introduced in Conspiracy, which was part of an entire arc written by Katie Lucas, daughter of George Lucas. Quelle surprise.

Look man, I know you love white knighting for George, but I promise you, it is possible for one person to make good decisions and also make bad decisions.

[Keltest]

You know what, you're absolutely right. Let's put the blame where it properly belongs. So let's see, the chips were first introduced in Conspiracy, which was part of an entire arc written by Katie Lucas, daughter of George Lucas. Quelle surprise.

Look man, I know you love white knighting for George, but I promise you, it is possible for one person to make good decisions and also make bad decisions.

Unless Katie Lucas is actually George Lucas in drag, perpetuating some sort of long con, it seems like you have somehow managed to state that it was explicitly not his decision and then promptly turn around and say its his fault.

[Peelee]

Unless Katie Lucas is actually George Lucas in drag, perpetuating some sort of long con, it seems like you have somehow managed to state that it was explicitly not his decision and then promptly turn around and say its his fault.

I rather clearly said that I was wrong, SG was right, and that Katie Lucas wrote that in. I'm not sure where you're seeing me saying it was George's fault. Separately from that, I also commented on SG's continued apparent campaign that George himself never did anything wrong in making Star Wars. Perhaps I could have been more clear, but I felt that the initial part was fairly direct in stating the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

[Keltest]

I rather clearly said that I was wrong, SG was right, and that Katie Lucas wrote that in. I'm not sure where you're seeing me saying it was George's fault. Separately from that, I also commented on SG's continued apparent campaign that George himself never did anything wrong in making Star Wars. Perhaps I could have been more clear, but I felt that the initial part was fairly direct in stating the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

You layered the sarcasm on rather think on that post, which sure made it seem like you were highlighting that George was basically responsible.

[Peelee]

You layered the sarcasm on rather think on that post, which sure made it seem like you were highlighting that George was basically responsible.

Again, apple and tree. Notwithstanding that if, say, I led a country and then very publicly stepped down and then you found out that my kid was then made secretary of state with no prior experience then would you really believe there's no possibility that kiddo wouldn't come to me for advice? Because if so I have quite a list of bridges to sell you, I could do with an early retirement.

Katie Lucas' entire filmography is Star Wars (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0337964/). Her father is George Lucas, her godparents are Steven Spielberg and Francis Ford Coppola, Hollywood is rife with nepotism and a bastion of its-not-what-you-know-its-who-you-know, and even with all that she's only ever written for Star Wars. Almost entirely The Clone Wars, and even then mostly with George owning it.

I can give you bulk pricing on those bridges, if you'd like.

[Keltest]

Again, apple and tree. Notwithstanding that if, say, I led a country and then very publicly stepped down and then you found out that my kid was then made secretary of state with no prior experience then would you really believe there's no possibility that kiddo wouldn't come to me for advice? Because if so I have quite a list of bridges to sell you, I could do with an early retirement.

Katie Lucas' entire filmography is Star Wars (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0337964/). Her father is George Lucas, her godparents are Steven Spielberg and Francis Ford Coppola, Hollywood is rife with nepotism and a bastion of its-not-what-you-know-its-who-you-know, and even with all that she's only ever written for Star Wars. Almost entirely The Clone Wars, and even then mostly with George owning it.

I can give you bulk pricing on those bridges, if you'd like.

See, youre still doing it! Youre going after George without actually saying his name. If you want to say its George's fault, just say it. If you don't, then quit insinuating it via going after his daughter and highlighting how close she is to George.

[Peelee]

See, youre still doing it! Youre going after George without actually saying his name. If you want to say its George's fault, just say it. If you don't, then quit insinuating it via going after his daughter and highlighting how close she is to George.

They're very nice bridges.

Also, would it make you happier if i said "The Lucas's"?

[Keltest]

They're very nice bridges.

Also, would it make you happier if i said "The Lucas's"?

Marginally. But like, she can make decisions you disagree with independently from any decisions made by her dad you disagree with. If you agree it's unfair to blame George, then it shouldn't matter who did do it.

[Peelee]

Marginally. But like, she can make decisions you disagree with independently from any decisions made by her dad you disagree with. If you agree it's unfair to blame George, then it shouldn't matter who did do it.

She can indeed. But i feel like you're downplaying how strange it is that a recon comes from the daughter of the person who is fairly famous for his retcons in the same media her father did and also haa acting credits as a child because her father put her in that same media and also who has a dearth of screenwriting credits, the entirety of which are, again, for that same media.

Imean, if you want to believe that she had zero input from her dad, thats certainly your prerogative. But i don't buy that for a second and i think that belief is hardly out of hand, considering the context. But, if you want to operate under thr assumption that she did, then i fail to see how "the Lucas's" is only marginally better. Its specifically pointing out both of them. It'd be like saying "George and Katy" or "George and Abrams". Just condensed.

[Keltest]

She can indeed. But i feel like you're downplaying how strange it is that a recon comes from the daughter of the person who is fairly famous for his retcons in the same media her father did and also haa acting credits as a child because her father put her in that same media and also who has a dearth of screenwriting credits, the entirety of which are, again, for that same media.

Imean, if you want to believe that she had zero input from her dad, thats certainly your prerogative. But i don't buy that for a second and i think that belief is hardly out of hand, considering the context. But, if you want to operate under thr assumption that she did, then i fail to see how "the Lucas's" is only marginally better. Its specifically pointing out both of them. It'd be like saying "George and Katy" or "George and Abrams". Just condensed.

I don't care if she had input from her dad. I care that you're saying "It's George's fault." very loudly, while also trying not to use the words. If you think he fed her the idea, just say it. Don't insinuate it and then insist its not what you said.

[Peelee]

I don't care if she had input from her dad. I care that you're saying "It's George's fault." very loudly, while also trying not to use the words. If you think he fed her the idea, just say it. Don't insinuate it and then insist its not what you said.

Having input from her dad, for example in the form of "hey dad what do you think of this", "i think they had mind control chips in their brain" would be Georgr Lucas retconning, yes. Through his daughter. Again, i highly doubt that someone who does not work as a screenwriter for anything other than her dads creation, which he is most known for and is inextricably linked to, would introduce a fundamental change in that work without consulting her dad. Knowing what i do about George's fondness for continual retcon of what had already been established or approved by him, and that his child who has never written for anything other than Star Wars and from all appearances does not seem interested in screenwriting at all (or has a publicist that actively hides such ambitions), then yeah, i have zero reason to suspect this isnt due to direct influence from George. I'll cop to Katy having written it, sure. And that's all that can be proven. But as a good lawyer once said, there's proving and there's knowing.

[pendell]

Just because Katy Lucas wrote it doesn't mean she did it at George's instructions, or that he particularly agrees with her decisions. It just means that he's delighted that his daughter can make a living in the family business.

As an example, I'm a fond of the novel duology "Mote in God's Eye" and "The Gripping Hand", by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle.

Jerry's daughter Jennifer wrote a sequel the novels twenty years later called Outies (https://www.amazon.com/Outies-Mote-Book-J-Pournelle/dp/0615434142#:~:text=Outies%20is%20a%20direct%2C%20a uthorized,Authored%20by%20Dr.). It was ... not on the same level. At all. Which presumably is why she hasn't continued the series.

Jerry was alive at the time his daughter picked this up. Whether he agreed with what she did with the universe or not, he never said one word. I take it what she wrote is not the story he would have written, but she's the one who needs to break into the business and not him, so he let it stand. Taking care of real-world family is sometimes more important to authors than the integrity of their fictional worlds.

So I wouldn't assume that just because Katy Lucas wrote it doesn't mean George approved it or even liked it. All it means is that avoiding a public quarrel with his daughter over an issue that involves both their financial futures is more important than the story.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Keltest]

I rather clearly said that I was wrong, SG was right, and that Katie Lucas wrote that in. I'm not sure where you're seeing me saying it was George's fault.

So where did this come from then?

[Peelee]

So where did this come from then?

Fine, i retract that and shouldn't have said it. Does that satisfy you?

[Keltest]

Fine, i retract that and shouldn't have said it. Does that satisfy you?

Yes. Thank you. My next step would have been to deploy a "I'm not saying it was aliens, but it was aluens." Meme.

[Fyraltari]

This fandom gets in the weirdest arguments.

[pendell]

This fandom gets in the weirdest arguments.

Well, yes. Isn't that why we're all here? If I wanted sane and normal, I'd join my local Toastmasters.



Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

[The Glyphstone]

This fandom gets in the weirdest arguments.

You should see what the Transformers fandom can get riled up about...

[Peelee]

You should see what the Transformers fandom can get riled up about...

Ive heard that car fanatics can be vicious, and robotics people seem pretty chill, so i have no idea what to expect when you mix 'em.

[tyckspoon]

Ive heard that car fanatics can be vicious, and robotics people seem pretty chill, so i have no idea what to expect when you mix 'em.

Arguments about which of a set of three identically designed characters that are only distinguished by color palette is which.

[pendell]

Arguments about which of a set of three identically designed characters that are only distinguished by color palette is which.

Skywarp, Thundercracker, and Starscream?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Sapphire Guard]

Eh, this is like a 3/10 on Gitp's Star Wars pedantry scale.

We've had quite a long thread about TCW now, and the only time George's name comes up is when someone wants to say 'curse you George for damaging your own creation'. No one looks at their favourite episode and says 'wow, George did a great job there.' The primary reason this happens seems to be confirmation bias, we have virtually no actual information on what George did or didn't do. It's certainly not based on any actual evidence.

The idea that George is somehow stealthily retconning things through his daughter is theoretically possible, but so are many other things, including 'George is no longer in control, let's retcon stuff now that he can't stop us', that he just didn't care because he was on track to sell the company, and many other things, including 'George doesn't like it, but he's not going to throw his daughter to the fandom wolves' The theory is based on the logic 'I don't like this plot thread, I don't like George Lucas, therefore George Lucas is responsible for this plot thread'. It just... doesn't make any sense.

[MCerberus]

Eh, this is like a 3/10 on Gitp's Star Wars pedantry scale.

We've had quite a long thread about TCW now, and the only time George's name comes up is when someone wants to say 'curse you George for damaging your own creation'. No one looks at their favourite episode and says 'wow, George did a great job there.' The primary reason this happens seems to be confirmation bias, we have virtually no actual information on what George did or didn't do. It's certainly not based on any actual evidence.

The idea that George is somehow stealthily retconning things through his daughter is theoretically possible, but so are many other things, including 'George is no longer in control, let's retcon stuff now that he can't stop us', that he just didn't care because he was on track to sell the company, and many other things, including 'George doesn't like it, but he's not going to throw his daughter to the fandom wolves' The theory is based on the logic 'I don't like this plot thread, I don't like George Lucas, therefore George Lucas is responsible for this plot thread'. It just... doesn't make any sense.

I think my question still stands on why TCW is why and how it is, because Genndy was supposed to helm the future of star wars, and he's an action guy. And then he wasn't and TCW movie comes out. I just want to know what happened between the two where this happened.

[Peelee]

Eh, this is like a 3/10 on Gitp's Star Wars pedantry scale.

We've had quite a long thread about TCW now, and the only time George's name comes up is when someone wants to say 'curse you George for damaging your own creation'. No one looks at their favourite episode and says 'wow, George did a great job there.'

[looks at the first two movies] Wow George did a great job there.

[Sapphire Guard]

Those are not TCW, so don't address the point.

[Taevyr]

Personally, I've developed the impression that Lucas is the type of perfectionist creator that really needs an editor or the like to say "this is good enough, now move on", and some people to refine the functional execution of said ideas: the original trilogy is notably a lot better than the prequels, and while (personally) I can very much see the intent with everything in the prequels making a good story, the execution (eg. "I hate sand") is quite lacking. It'd be quite easily explained by Lucas having a lot more say in the final product by the time the prequels came by, and being under more "scrutiny" for the original movies.

[Sapphire Guard]

That is the fandom impression, but it doesn't come from anywhere. It's just made up, as far as I have been able to tell.

The prequels had an editor too. No one blames him. Why not?

[Mechalich]

That is the fandom impression, but it doesn't come from anywhere. It's just made up, as far as I have been able to tell.

The prequels had an editor too. No one blames him. Why not?

Lucas financed the Prequels on his own, using his own money, not a Hollywood studio. This gave him an extremely high level of control, not over edits, but over production, because he was functionally his own producer. This removed a level of feedback that normally exists in films between the director and the studio-appointed producer. Now, that feedback is usually economic in nature, wherein a director wants to do thing X, and the producer says 'thing X is too expensive, cut it,' but includes other parts of the project. Allowing a director to have too much control of a production is a problem that can be laid at the feet of the producer - this argument is commonly advanced regarding the Sequels - and in the sense that George Lucas was unwilling to restrict himself, applies quite well to the Prequels.

[Sapphire Guard]

There are several problems with that.

Empire Strikes Back was also financed by Lucas, and that one is generally considered one of the best.

Rick McCullum was the producer of the prequels.

It's not clear what creative input the studio actually had with Star Wars, at the time, they weren't that invested because they didn't expect it to succeed, which is why George was able to get the rights to make sequels.

Quote from Alan Ladd, the studio exec at the time:


Recalls Lucas: “The only meeting I had with Laddie about the script… he said, ‘Look it doesn’t make any sense to me whatsoever, but I trust you. Go ahead and make it.’

https://www.forbes.com/sites/judebrennan/2014/05/01/the-man-who-green-lit-star-wars-the-most-important-movie-mogul-youve-never-heard-of/?sh=53a5c1812f78

[Fyraltari]

Season 6, Episode 5: An Old Friend

So, it turns out that war cost money to wage. Specifically, Padmé needs money to pay for aid going to the many refugees and wants to get it from the Intergalactic Banking Clan. The IBC being neutral, founding membership of the CIS notwithstanding, their base planet of Scipio is neutral ground (or rather an area around the main facility, but it's kind of weird it's not the entire planet) to ensure both sides can carry out their financial operation in... well not peace but you get the idea. Amidala has reasons to be worried, though, as there are rumors that the Clan isn't as stable as it used to be, and rumors are very damageable to banks (who more or less run on the Tinkerbell principle of economics). Another, more pressing, reason to worry would be that her arrival is being observed from afar by notorious bounty hunter Embo and his adorable dog. The hitman sends a miniature probe droid to follow her as she's being lead through the ridiculously massive doors to the bank.

She is taken to the "Council of Five", the leaders of the Banking Clan. She explains that she's been sent by the Supreme Chancellor to hurry along an upcoming loan. They defer her to their special representative, the titular old friend: former senator for Scipio and former boyfriend of hers, Rush Clovis. Last seen all the way back in Season 2 about to have a presumed fatal chat with Lott Dod and Poggle the Lesser about the leakage of the plans of a certain droid factory to the Republic. Padmé categorically refuse to deal with a known separatist traitor and when the councilmuuns, who apparently weren't aware of their prior history (employee background checks, much?), press the issue, she just storms off. I guess a show of strength in early negotiations isn't the worst idea, but I question the wisdom of playing chicken over money the Republic needs.

Cut to the apartment the muuns have attributed to Padmé for the duration of her stay... and into which Clovis straight-up breaks. Smooth. Padmé "resourcefully" smuggled a blaster into the neutral zone, something he wasn't expecting. Is that joke what I think that joke is? He says he needs her help. She replies that the last time he needed it, she was poisoned and he didn't do a thing (Oh look Ani didn't tell her about him threatening Lott Dod, with a gun, this is my surprised face). He says she stole data from him, data that proved him a traitor, she retorts. He says it's not safe to speak there and leads her to the balcony. No-one ever puts listening devices in balconies! Embo's droid spots them, though, and reports back to its master.

Clovis tells Padmé that the economics of the war don't make sense. She's here for a transfer but there is no money in the bank. Isn't that kind of how banks operate anyway? She doesn't believe him since they were ready to hand over the money this very day. He explains that they were going to give the first installment, yes, but they're actually robbing one side to pay the other (so it's Ponzi scheme then? Bankers amirite?). But the system is about to collapse. She asks for evidence. It's in the vaults which, it turns out, don't protect like a pile of credits but the records of the Clan's banking transactions. Okay, that makes sense. Problem is, only the Five have access to the vaults. He wants her to put pressure on them o that he can sneak in. She refuses to help. This is the moment that Embo chooses to open fire on Scipio, missing several shots. The humans take cover, with Clovis shouting that the IBC is trying to silence him. Embo runs away and so does Clovis, asking her to take what he's said into consideration.

Later, after the local police is gone, Palpatine, on the holophone, asks Padmé if she thinks Clovis is telling the truth. When she confirms it, he tells her that she should do what he suggests, then. The next morning, Padmé tells the Council she accepts to deal with Clovis, but in exchange she demands to be allowed into the vaults and observe the whole process. They are reluctant, bu tClovis points out that a lack of transparency is the last thing the IBC needs after a senator was almost murdered on their turf. They agree to open the vaults the next day and dismiss the two of them. In the meantime, Clovis takes Padmé to his mountainside villa, remote, but private. Ah yes, the one place spies and assassins won't look for him... His home! Devilishly devious, Rush! As he explains, the vault is one of the most secure in the entire galaxy, but it is designed to keep people out, once she's been let inside, it's relatively easy to get what she's after. The plan is simple: Clovis will remotely trigger bombs in the main power source, triggering a vault lockdown which will allow Padmé to locate and download the incriminating files. She just needs to be quick enough to be done before the back-up generator boots up. Clovis hopes to expose "the real criminals behind this war", but PAdmé doesn't believe exposing yet another batch of war profiteer will change much in the grand scheme of things. She wishes him a good evening and goes to bed.

The next day, the Big Fives have open the gates (via handprint identification) and invite Amidala in. Clovis tries to sneak out, but one of the Five's assistant insists he stays, since this was his idea. He discreetly hands the explosives to Padmé's handmaid, Tekla, who leaves. She gets into the power generator (good thing there appears to be absolutely no security whatsoever there), plants the bomb, sets the timer, leaves... and is shot dead by Embo. From what this episode explains of his motives there, there was absolutely no need for him to do that. What the hell, dude? the bomb explodes killing all the lights in the building. Padmé evades the councilmuuns, finds the right terminal (Clovis had shown her a plan the previous day) and downloads the the files. It's a good thing that still works with the power shutdown. tHe muuns manage to get the vault opened and Padmé rejoins the group with them none the wiser, she complains about the incident and the lead banker profusely apologizes. She says she'll report this "sad state of affairs" to the chancellor and leaves.

Back at her place, Clovis and her look over the files she stole, and it's full of big ol' zeroes. In barges the police to arrest her for espionnage. I mean, didn't you suspect this very apartment of being unsafe? Maybe looking over the top-secret files right there wasn't the best call. They atke her away while she says the Chancellor will hear about this. And a few days later, who would show up but Anakin Skywalker? I love how he's just the default guy to deal with whatever messes Padmé lands herself into now, you think they renewed his body-guarding mission after AotC? The Muuns call him "Master Jedi" (yeah, that still irks me) and take him to Padmé. He explains to her that Tekla was found dead at the bombing site, which I suppose would be why she's suspected of espionnage. They dodn't know who killed her, though. She starts to explain but as soon as Clovis's name comes up, he flies into a jealous rage and storms off. The insecurity of this man, I swear. Anyway, she's actually been released into his custody, so she can come with him. Huh, I guess the IBC really wants to stay in the Republic's good graces. They're even allowed to leave the planet. She doesn't want to leave without the files (she handed them to Clovis as she was being arrested), though, and reasons that Clovis would have taken them to his private residence. Ani agrees to go there, but he orders R2 to prepare the ship.

When they arrive, the place is abandoned and has clearly been ransacked. Anakin half-jokingly hopes whoever searched it found the files and that's why Clovis is missing. She explains how important this is, which gets Clovis to crawl out of his hiding spot. He's not exactly pleased to see Anakin again, and the feeling is mutual. Anakin wants the disk, Clovis refuses to give up his only guarantee of not being left behind... again. Padmé tells them to stop bickering. And embo opens fire from outside the house. they run along the bridge leading to the landing pad and take the speeder (Anakin has to Force-jump on it). But Embo manages to damage the vehicle's engines. And they end up with an improvised metal luge. Embo jumps on his own hat which he uses as a snowboard. This is so ridiculous it loops back to cool-looking again. Skywalker radios R2 to pick them up. They have some Ice Age looking shenaniganery, I'm pretty sure Embo defies conservation of momentum a couple of times. Ultimately, Anakin manages to Force-push Embo to the ground and R2 catches them as their speeder was gliding off a cliff. Embo's dog (how the hell did he gets here so fast) brings him his hat back as he watches them take off. Then the bounty hunter contacts his employer: Darth Sidious! The mission was a complete success and Sidious will now take over phase 2 of whatever this scheme is.

Well this was fun. There was a good balance of intrigue, character building and just shameless fun (the final chase scene).

I am perplexed by Sidious's plan there, he apparently wants the information of the Banking Clan to make its way to Coruscant in a way that feels credible to the good guys, but why? He already has control of them through the CIS, no? I suppose the next episodes will explain this.

Clovis is still interesting as an unlikely ally and a vessel for Anakin to express his jealousy (also this time they don't dance over the nature of his and Padmé's relationship, Anakin calls him "loverboy".) still, this feels a bit like a redux of his last appearance. Speaking of which, I wished they had explained how he got out of that one. Gee, that was almost three years ago!

I am starting to wonder how PAdmé keeps finding new handmaiden.

Next episode: The Rise of Clovis. He's going to do something stupid, isn't he?

[Keltest]

Remember that the purpose of the Clone Wars is ultimately to eliminate the free thinkers who would oppose Palpatine's rise to power. This is mostly the Jedi yes, but also many of the separatist leaders and members, as well as a lot of the independent merchant organizations who scoff at the rule of the Republic. Getting them to fight is a goal of its own.

[Fyraltari]

free thinkers [...] separatist leaders

Pick one.0

[Mechalich]

Remember that the purpose of the Clone Wars is ultimately to eliminate the free thinkers who would oppose Palpatine's rise to power. This is mostly the Jedi yes, but also many of the separatist leaders and members, as well as a lot of the independent merchant organizations who scoff at the rule of the Republic. Getting them to fight is a goal of its own.

Not the Separatist leaders, who are a bunch of corporate stooges, but the Separatist species who represent a significant power block in the Mid and Outer Rim opposed to the Core World's domination of the galaxy (economically, culturally, even legally). The CIS is, broadly interpreted, an anti-colonialist uprising that is led not by indigenous grassroots but instead by the previously collaborative local administrative class the colonialists thought were running their dominions (there are historical parallels, though I will forbear referencing any due to forum rules). Palpatine, by goading them into attack, and by getting a war criminal like Grievous put in charge of their army to massively escalate the brutality, has produced an excuse to clamp down and gain control over far more of the galaxy than simply getting the Republic circa 25 BBY to appoint him dictator for life would have accomplished.

This arc, in fact, sort of represents Palpatine's entire modus operandi in miniature.


Clovis is still interesting as an unlikely ally and a vessel for Anakin to express his jealousy (also this time they don't dance over the nature of his and Padmé's relationship, Anakin calls him "loverboy".) still, this feels a bit like a redux of his last appearance. Speaking of which, I wished they had explained how he got out of that one. Gee, that was almost three years ago!

My recollection of this arc is that its high point for Padme. It's a plotline that makes sense for her to be in, Clovis' existence provides a glimpse into why she's into Anakin and not some other much more suitable political spouse, and the show is willing to let Padme have some pushback, however, modest to Anakin's obsessions.

[runeghost]

Remember that the purpose of the Clone Wars is ultimately to eliminate the free thinkers who would oppose Palpatine's rise to power. This is mostly the Jedi yes, but also many of the separatist leaders and members, as well as a lot of the independent merchant organizations who scoff at the rule of the Republic. Getting them to fight is a goal of its own.

I don't remember this particular arc, but in general Sidious is constantly running Xanatos Gambits. He's pulling strings and moving pieces, and has preferred outcomes, but in general no matter how things work out, they move closer to his goals.

[Grim Portent]

In this case Palpatine's control over the banks is contingent on the leaders being corrupt and choosing to remain under his thumb. While he could make it clear to them that they need to give him money whenever he wants regardless of the profit involved for themselves, they will always push back against that when they think there's an opportunity to do so. There are elements within the banks beyond his control, which are sufficiently powerful that they could in theory usurp the bank and remove it from his set of tools. Corrupt businessmen cannot be trusted to serve the needs of the (corrupt) state, and the Mune leadership is almost entirely corrupt businessmen.

[Fyraltari]

Season 6, Execute Episode 6: The Rise of Clovis

The narrator calls Clovis a "once close friend" of Padmé's. Lol. On Scipio, the Five of the Banking Clan are not happy about losing compromising evidence. It's not enough to get them convicted yet, but that's enough to start a serious investigation. They feel confident they can get around it, as long as their secret accounts aren't discovered. I mean, Gunray got away with invading a planet, so they're looking pretty good. The council's chief assistant(?) accuses the Five's leadership of causing this situation in the first place (after they blamed him for letting the heroes escape) and leaves to call Sidious to confirm to him that the Senator left with "enough" evidence. Sidious congratulates him, he can now proceed with the rest of the plan. He also reassures the Muun that the fallout won't affect him.

Skywalker, Amidala and Clovis land at the Senate where they are greeted by Yoda, and a couple of guards (clad in blue not red, hm, is this happening before Barris' trial and Five's death?), at Palpatine's request. They've heard a first report of what happened and are wondering if Clovis can be trusted. Clovis makes his case before Palpatine a slew of prominent senators and Jedi Masters. Organa doesn't trust him but Clovis says they need to rid the banks of corruption before the whole infrastructure collapses. Hey, dude, it's capitalism, crashes are kind of inevitable. Anakin thinks he just want to be the banks' new leader. Palpatine asks for solid proof. Clovis shows the records Padmé stole (I wonder what the Republic laws as to say about illegally obtained evidence being receivable in court. Heh, this close to the Empire, probably not much) which show the money being transferred towards account that Clovis believes to be privately-owned. So, it's embezzlement, then? Palps puts Rush and Padmé in charge of the investigation going forward.

As everyone leaves, Anakin grabs Padmé (he really sucks at the whole "secret lovers" thing, doesn't he?) and asks why she didn't refuse a great career opportunity to avoid working with Clovis. he tells him he'll just have to trust her judgement. He says last time he trusted her judgement she almost got killed and he had to bail her out of being arrested (speaking of which, what about her being "in his custody" until her trial for espionage on Scipio, are they just going to tell the Muun to shove it?) and,as her husband, demands that she steps down. She doesn't really care for his choice of words, unsurprisingly. Clovis breaks up the fight by showing up and asking Padmé if she's ready to get to work.

Meanwhile on Serenno, Darth Sidious orders Darth Tyranus to recruit Rush Clovis. He'll help him take over the Intergalactic Banking Clan, but as he's doing so, he'll trap him to ensure his loyalty to the Sith. Of course, the Apprentice obeys his Master. Some time later, Obi-Wan visits Anakin who is busy tinkering in his cell. He and Yoda are questioning his judgment about Clovis. kenobi can tell just the mention of the name makes Skywalker angry. Ani tries to deflect by saying that Rush almost got Padmé killed but Obi-Wan points out that he doesn't usually reacts that strongly to Amidala putting herself in danger. Anakin goes to sit next to what appears to be a poster about the Bounta Eve podrace, featuring a picture of Sebulba. Why do you have a poster of a man who tried to kill you, Anakin? Skywalker says he doesn't trust Padmé to be on her guard around Clovis because of their previous relationship. Kenobi asks if it isn't Anakin who is vulnerable to his emotions. He says he understand to a degree what Anakin is going through (he is bad at the whole "secret lovers" thing) and brings up Satine. Say, we haven't heard from Mandalore since last season when he promised to come back with an army. I guess this is taking place before Satine died since Obi-Wan is emotionally able to bring her up like that. He says it's natural to harbor these kind of feelings, they're natural, but Anakin and Padmé must remain the good friends he loudly insists they are. Anakin says he understands his responsibilities (I mean, he's not wearing protection, so I'm not so sure about that) and Obi-Wan replies these responsibilities are not dependent on whichever relationship Padmé and Clovis share. Skywalker insist the two have no relationship, which leads Obi-Wan to conclude there shouldn't be a problem, then. Anakin looks like he's about to reach out to Obi-Wan as he leaves, but doesn't and look distraught. Nice scene.

At Padmé's Clovis and her are just back from the opera and ready to start working (interesting schedule), she's also put on her "mixed messages" dress from AotC, so right now I'm wondering if she's trying to make Anakin jealous or something. Clovis shows her that the Separatists are severely behind on their interest payments, but the IBC is still promising loans to the Republic with non-existent money. Also the data they have show hundreds upon hundreds of small withdrawals from the vaults, individually they look normal, but added together they represent a "devastating" amount of stolen money. Problem is, they don't know who's doing it. Clovis is worried about this kind of information leaking into the wrong hands and insist they be exceptionally cautious about their findings. They move on to having a work-dinner. Padmé recalls a Senate hearing the two of them once prepared in three nights, resulting in them saving an aqueduct system and avoiding a famine. When she says they're not as young as they were then, he says they're not that old yet and puts his arm around her shoulders. She immediately stands up and changes topic. She asks him how he got involved with the Muuns and the banks, something he apparently never told her when they were dating. He genuinely believes in the banks, thinking it's just a dishonest few Muuns that tarnish the reputation of an otherwise good people. His father was an attaché to one of the richest Muun families and he grew up "basically a servant". The patriarch had a young Clovis study with his children, since they were the same age. Then an accident killed both of Rush's parents and the patriarch's wife. So he adopted the twelve-year-old boy. He was accepted by Muun society and felt like one of them, as long as he wasn't looking in a mirror. Rooting out corruption from the IBC is therefore very personal for him, and he believes that his many contact in the Muun government would help him if asked as they want this even more than he does. Padmé says she trusts him but when he starts thanking her for "all she's done for him" and how he "wouldn't have had the strength alone". She tells him to stop. He immediately guesses that she is with Anakin now (have I mentioned how bad they are at the whole "secret lovers" thing, yet? Because they are bad at it). She claims Anakin and she are only friends, but he knows the argument he witnessed wasn't the kind that happens between friends. He says that having romantic attachments would get Anakin banished from the Order. She says there's nothing romantic between the two of them. So Rush says that means there's nothing stopping them from doing this and tries to kiss her despite her saying no loudly twice. And I was just about to find him endearing. Feh!

Anakin walks in just at that moment, Force chokes Clovis, slams him against a column and draws his lightsaber. Yep, dude's completely in tune with his responsibilities, alright. Padmé's "Anakin, no!" sounds like she's yelling at a bad dog. Clovis stands up and challenges Anakin to fight like a man, without any Jedi tricks. Anakin takes the bait and puts the potential murder-weapon at bay. He starts pummeling Rush to the ground. Padmé tells them to stop but Anakin says she doesn't have a say in this. Pretty sure she's the only one with a say in this, actually dude. Rush manages to kick the Jedi off him and tells Padmé "I thought you said he didn't have feeling for you?" Anakin looks hurt at hearing this. I mean, isn't that what they're supposed to say? Then he bull rushes Clovis yelling about how he sees him for what he truly is. Rush tries to parry a punch, from Anakin's metal hand, and only manages to hurt his knuckles. Anakin throws him over a couch and calls him a serpent and a traitor. Clovis manages to kick Anakin in the face a few times. Huh, looks like he likes his boxing to be Thai (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muay_Thai) (or maybe he's trained in savate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savate)?). This doesn't really faze Anakin, while Padmé is still impotently yelling at them both to stop. Rush tells Anakin to accept that the senator has other interests than him. Anakin headbutts him then Force-slams him into Padmé's expensive-looking glass table before grabbing him and manually slamming him into the ground. Clovis straight up lands on his back, bounces, and lands on his stomach. I'm honestly surprised he doesn't have a spine injury after that. Then Anakin just starts raining blows on his opponent who doesn't even have the strength to try to protect his face anymore. When it looks like he's going to beat the man to death, Anakin finally realizes what he's doing stops and stands away. This is when Captain Tycho finally calls Padmé to ask what the commotion is about and she asks him to come up immediately. You'd think that after the twelfth murder attempt they come up without being asked to. When Tycho shows up, Rush lies about an assassination attempt and being rescued by Anakin. Skywalker corroborates. Tycho calls for a medic droid and Padmé has Clovis wait in her bedroom. Anakin wants to apologize but she orders him to stay away.

Some time later, he's waiting for her at her landing pad/living room thing. Padmé comes and tells him that Rush's injuries will heal quickly. He apologizes but she tells him that what's done is done. He tries to say that he was furious when he saw her about to kiss him and she tells him it wasn't like that and that she doesn't care for Clovis. He's still not sure about that. She berates him for his lack of trust in her and that a marriage cannot work like that. When they married they worried that it could be a terrible mistake and now she worries that a relationship cannot survive the lies and deception that their situation demands. Anakin says he knows he went too far, it's just that something in him... snapped. Padmé no longer feels happy or safe and tells him it would be best if they don't see each other for a while. Neither of them are happy about this. Meanwhile, in Padmé's room, the medical droid tell Clovis he has no broken bones, and that someone wants to talk to him, the droid's master: Count Dooku. Well, that fight was convenient for the Sith. Dooku's holo appears. The Count admits to Clovis that he knows the bankers are corrupt and that they've allowed the Separatists not to pay any interest on their loans. He's afraid that this information going public would bring war to Scipio and upset the economy, so, in the interest of all, he has an arrangement to suggest. He'll give Clovis the location of the secret accounts so that he can bring the embezzlers down and become the banks' new management, then the CIS will start paying loans. In exchange, Clovis will ensure a peaceful transition of power in Scipio and will guarantee the IBC's neutrality. Ensuring "stability in unstable times". The droid hands Clovis the disk with the relevant info and resumes the check-up.

Later, a Muun representative informs Palpatine and consorts that the Muun government has arrested the heads of the Banking Clan and seized the stolen funds. The representative thanks Clovis for his service and Palpatine says that the CIS has agreed to the proposal of having Clovis take over the Clan. Palpatine endorses him as well, but the Senate will have the final say. Clovis addresses the Senate from Padmé's flying pod while being booed as a traitor. He shows them the evidence, stresses that the Muuns are a "good an honest people" tarnished by an unscrupulous few (close up on Palpatine's evil smile) and offers to take over the banks and restore order. he vows to be impartial and take no side in the war. When an Aqualish senators brings up his collusion with the Separatists, Padmé defends him saying these very ties are what made the CIS accept his nomination. The Muun senators and the Chancellor also both offer their supports. Chuchi votes yes, Organa votes no, and ultimately a "resounding majority" supports the nomination.

As they leave, Palpatine asks Anakin what troubles him and Skywalker says he feels he's doing a mistake in trusting Clovis, but Palps tells him that publicly supporting him does not mean trusting him and that he'll watch him closely. He tells Anakin that he believes something hasn't been unearthed yet and that they'll have to make sure no-one gets hurt.

Well, this was a nice episode, I do look a side-serving of political intrigue in my Star Wars. The Sith haven't trapped Clovis yet, but that's probably going to happen next episode. I'm guessing Sidious plans on framing him for murdering his adoptive father's wife as well as his parents so he could move up in Muun society (otherwise why have this slightly convoluted backstory exposed now?) and on using Anakin as the metaphorical stick to keep Clovis in line.

I find it very funny that on one hand the Republic is all "we can't negotiate with the CIS, that'd lend them legitimacy as a separate state" and on the other take their opinion into account when picking a new head banker. Heh, I shouldn't be surprised that a society morphing into a fascist state is engaging in double-think. Also, the fact that Dooku failed a kajillion times to have Padmé assassinated when her private doctor is loyal to him is sending me.

But of course, as seems to be usual with episodes featuring Clovis, the meat of the episode is Anakin and Padmé's relationship, as they have their first big fight, to the point of a temporary break-up. We see that the stress of hiding their marriage is really getting to Anakin, isolating him from Obi-Wan and that his protectiveness is turning into something uglier and more controlling. He feels entitled to make decisions about Padmé's life and frequentations "for her own good" and is jealous of someone who had and theoretically still could have the overt relationship with her he craves. This possessiveness and feeling of entitlement fit very well with his actions in Revenge of the Sith where he will make extremely radical decisions, i.e. destroying the Jedi Order, on her behalf without considering her opinion and eventually try to murder her for "betraying him" with/for Obi-Wan. This uglier side of Anakin in turn make Clovis look somewhat more credible than last time as a romantic rival, until he turns rapey and tries to kiss Padmé despite her clearly and loudly refusing. The ensuing cockfight* is, like all cockfights, more about both men trying to prove their superiority than any of them listening to or respecting what she wants. Poor Padmé really deserved better than any of these idiots.

*It's an animal metaphor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockfight), I'm not being vulgar.

Next up: Crisis at the Heart. The Morrowind crossover you never expected!

[Mechalich]

Poor Padmé really deserved better than any of these idiots.

Maybe?

Personally, I'm less inclined to absolve Padme of her mistakes. It takes two people to conduct an illicit affair and secret marriage, and while Anakin may have been the initiator, Padme absolutely led him on and she is the older and nominally more responsible party. Even leaving Jedi status aside, allowing the development of an intimate relationship with a personal protective officer is a monstrously unprofessional move and the kind of thing that, should it have come to light, would presumably be grounds for impeachment from the Senate.

Anakin isn't the only one with incentives to keep the relationship secret. Personally, since his relationship with Padme includes a considerable amount of unhealthy adoration, I'm inclined to believe that is Padme had actually asked him to leave the Jedi Order and be with her openly he might have been persuadable (especially after Ahsoka is drubbed out of the Order, though that hasn't happened yet in the context of this episode), but she never does this. She's extremely protective of her own status throughout in a highly detrimental fashion. For example, in this episode she, goes along with the scheme to cover up Anakin nearly beating a man to death over her - and Clovis lies about it in part because he's fully aware that Padme will take Anakin's side if he were to try to press charges or something.

Obviously, Anakin's the one who crosses the line to mass murder, but they're both responsible for creating and continuing this massively dysfunctional relationship.

[gbaji]

Honestly, the entire banking storyline was about the weakest in the entire series. Bothered me because it appeared as though it was written by people who's understanding of actual banking was limited to "I have a checking account with my local commercial bank" level. I get that the point was all about manipulation of events to shift power to where Palpatine ultimately wanted it, but the actual events and rationalizations made zero sense to me. And yeah. I also get that this is basically "puff fantasy", and maybe not worry about the details too much. But if you're going to bother with a plot line about banking, why not at least have some basic understanding of macro economics to go along with it?

Should have stuck with "political and military control" and just left the whole bank business out of it. Would have been more believable to me.

[Aeson]

allowing the development of an intimate relationship with a personal protective officer is a monstrously unprofessional move and the kind of thing that, should it have come to light, would presumably be grounds for impeachment from the Senate.
There's any number of real-world examples of politicians surviving significantly worse scandals than a secret marriage and a bit of consensual hokey-pokey with a bodyguard, up to and including criminal activity. I doubt if many real political bodies would go any further than censuring a member for having an improper relationship with their bodyguard unless the dominant power block was looking for an excuse to push that member out or unless someone at the top was looking to make an example of someone, and I don't see any reason to think the Old Republic's Senate would be any different.


I'm inclined to believe that is Padme had actually asked him to leave the Jedi Order and be with her openly he might have been persuadable (especially after Ahsoka is drubbed out of the Order, though that hasn't happened yet in the context of this episode), but she never does this.
Given that the Republic is embroiled in a civil war for more or less the duration of their relationship and given the Jedi Order's relationship to the Republic's military, Anakin's legal right to leave the Jedi Order during the war is open to question, and even if he can leave there would likely be considerable pressure on both of them to either put it off until the war's over or at least continue to keep things quiet.

Additionally, Anakin's position in the Republic military is due to his membership in the Jedi Order, and while Padme may be a dove he's pretty clearly a committed hawk, especially in EU material; he's also clearly rather status-conscious by Revenge of the Sith, if not earlier. Leaving the Order could very well cost him his position in the Republic's military or at the very least make it difficult for him to maintain the level of independence he appears to have in a lot of the Clone Wars cartoons and other EU material, and that isn't going to do any favors for Anakin's and Padme's domestic affairs - especially if he comes to believe that he's the only one making sacrifices or paying any significant costs for their relationship, as might well happen if he loses his position while she remains a respected Senator. Leaving the Jedi Order would likely also serve to isolate Anakin further - he might be something of a misfit in the Jedi Order, but he's been part of it for around half his life and it's very likely that a significant majority of whatever friends and long-term acquaintances he has are either part of or otherwise strongly associated with the Jedi Order. Walking away from the Order in the midst of the greatest crisis it's faced in generations would almost certainly do serious and quite possibly irreparable damage to most or all of those relationships, making him even more vulnerable than he already was to Palpatine's manipulations, especially if Palpatine was either responsible or could lead Anakin to believe he was responsible for preserving or restoring Anakin's status within the military.

[Mechalich]

There's any number of real-world examples of politicians surviving significantly worse scandals than a secret marriage and a bit of consensual hokey-pokey with a bodyguard, up to and including criminal activity. I doubt if many real political bodies would go any further than censuring a member for having an improper relationship with their bodyguard unless the dominant power block was looking for an excuse to push that member out or unless someone at the top was looking to make an example of someone, and I don't see any reason to think the Old Republic's Senate would be any different.

I said 'grounds for' not that it would necessarily happen - though Padme was a member of a vulnerable political minority and had a bunch of enemies. It's still not a good look. Padme is decidedly not a heroic character in the PT timeline, she just kind of...sucks at everything. This is really rather bad, and I feel her character is very much ill-used, but objectively she's just kind of awful.


Given that the Republic is embroiled in a civil war for more or less the duration of their relationship and given the Jedi Order's relationship to the Republic's military, Anakin's legal right to leave the Jedi Order during the war is open to question,

Ahsoka leaves, so Anakin definitely can, and during AotC Obi-Wan threatens Anakin with expulsion should the relationship be revealed, which is a very central point of tension.


Additionally, Anakin's position in the Republic military is due to his membership in the Jedi Order, and while Padme may be a dove he's pretty clearly a committed hawk, especially in EU material; he's also clearly rather status-conscious by Revenge of the Sith, if not earlier. Leaving the Order could very well cost him his position in the Republic's military or at the very least make it difficult for him to maintain the level of independence he appears to have in a lot of the Clone Wars cartoons and other EU material, and that isn't going to do any favors for Anakin's and Padme's domestic affairs - especially if he comes to believe that he's the only one making sacrifices or paying any significant costs for their relationship, as might well happen if he loses his position while she remains a respected Senator. Leaving the Jedi Order would likely also serve to isolate Anakin further - he might be something of a misfit in the Jedi Order, but he's been part of it for around half his life and it's very likely that a significant majority of whatever friends and long-term acquaintances he has are either part of or otherwise strongly associated with the Jedi Order. Walking away from the Order in the midst of the greatest crisis it's faced in generations would almost certainly do serious and quite possibly irreparable damage to most or all of those relationships, making him even more vulnerable than he already was to Palpatine's manipulations, especially if Palpatine was either responsible or could lead Anakin to believe he was responsible for preserving or restoring Anakin's status within the military.

Oh, it's absolutely a heavy lift, to be sure, but the point I was trying to make is that Padme never asks. She is complicit in the double life that Anakin is forced to lead and never tries to talk him out of it. Regarding Anakin's overall tragic arc, Palpatine is the 'evil who triumphs,' but Padme is arguably the 'good man who does nothing' (to the point of giving up outright at the end which, just...ugh).

[Aeson]

Ahsoka leaves, so Anakin definitely can
Ahsoka was practically expelled after being framed for multiple serious crimes by someone she thought of as a friend, became a fugitive, was captured, imprisoned, and given what basically amounted to a show trial that probably only didn't convict her because the real perpetrator was captured and made to confess before they got around to wrapping things up, and then once her name was cleared a bunch of people who had basically turned their backs on her 'graciously' offered her a chance to return to the fold, which she declined. Not exactly the same as just walking out.

Also, not that the cartoon ever really acknowledges this, but the Jedi are effectively military officers, and officers don't get to just leave the service in the middle of a war.

[Sapphire Guard]

I never actually watched this arc. Woow, they are really over foreshadowing Anakin's fall to the point that it's increasingly implausible for it to be not noticed by everyone well in advance.

Ahsoka's trial is just weird, it's not an auction. The verdict is delivered, dramatically bursting in with an obviously coerced confession means nothing until appeal.

Anakin might not be able to leave the Republic military (nor would he want to), but the Jedi would let him leave. They don't hold people against their will.

The Padme/Anakin relationship is a massive conflict of interest that really hurts her credibility. Every decision she's ever supported would be second guessed as 'are you acting in the interests of the Republic, or are you protecting your husband'. She has many enemies that would bring that up at every opportunity.

[Keltest]

I don't believe the republic really has a formal military structure outside of the jedi and imported clone ranks. They miiiiiight? have a naval structure of sorts, but they probably don't have any restrictions against a general resigning on the spot by virtue of not actually having any military commissions to resign from.

[Mechalich]

I never actually watched this arc. Woow, they are really over foreshadowing Anakin's fall to the point that it's increasingly implausible for it to be not noticed by everyone well in advance.

Padme's known Anakin has a serious anger management problem since at least his confession regarding murdering the sand people in AotC. This arc reinforces both that the situation has not improved (and adds jealousy as a motive), and that Padme isn't doing anything about it. She'll ultimately spill the beans to Obi-Wan in RotS, but by they its way to late. Exactly how much other people know is a bit more questionable. Obi-Wan is obviously aware that Anakin has some difficulties, but he sees the best in Anakin and has managed to talk him down in the past. Ahsoka and Rex both probably know, but the series carefully removes them from the board at key points. That's actually one of the things I think TCW does very well, it both expands Anakin's unreasonably meager support network from the movies and takes that network away in a manner that further justifies his distrust of everyone.


The Padme/Anakin relationship is a massive conflict of interest that really hurts her credibility. Every decision she's ever supported would be second guessed as 'are you acting in the interests of the Republic, or are you protecting your husband'. She has many enemies that would bring that up at every opportunity.

The really frustrating part, for me, is that the PT tries to have Padme's character serve as the champion of democracy, but because she's so personally compromised it just isn't a good look. Like, 'this is the best you had Old Republic? Really?'

[Grim Portent]

Ahsoka's trial is just weird, it's not an auction. The verdict is delivered, dramatically bursting in with an obviously coerced confession means nothing until appeal.

I don't think the Republic has appeals, the general vibe of their law enforcement is dystopian and cursory even in other stories. Hell it's outright medieval. You get convicted, your sentence begins immediately. No appeals, no leniency, unless a government official pardons you. I think the idea was that if Ahsoka was found guilty she'd be taken away and shot by a firing squad straight away.

This is the same regime that put a child in a maximum security prison with adults. A 17th century gallows right outside the courthouse wouldn't be all that out of place.


I don't believe the republic really has a formal military structure outside of the jedi and imported clone ranks. They miiiiiight? have a naval structure of sorts, but they probably don't have any restrictions against a general resigning on the spot by virtue of not actually having any military commissions to resign from.

As I understand it they had to make a formal military structure from scratch because they didn't want the clones to be in charge of themselves and then filled it in with members of the federal police and various local militaries. How much legal structure they had around the Grand Army is unclear, but they seem to have had an idea of things like dereliction of duty, treason, mutiny and refusal to follow orders. I don't think there was a proper judiciary to oversee prosecutions, or military trials for most matters, I think it's more a matter of local commanders having the jurisdiction to execute their subordinates should they deem it necessary.

IIRC some Jedi did peacefully leave the Order during the Clone Wars, and they weren't charged for it, so Anakin probably wouldn't have been in any legal trouble for leaving, but it would still be a massive decision for him to make. It also would probably ruin Padme's career if he left the military and Jedi in order to make their relationship public. War hero general and propaganda darling abandons the war effort to spend time with peace activist senator wife? A lot of people would see that as a massive betrayal.

[Mechalich]

I don't think the Republic has appeals, the general vibe of their law enforcement is dystopian and cursory even in other stories. Hell it's outright medieval. You get convicted, your sentence begins immediately. No appeals, no leniency, unless a government official pardons you. I think the idea was that if Ahsoka was found guilty she'd be taken away and shot by a firing squad straight away.

This is the same regime that put a child in a maximum security prison with adults. A 17th century gallows right outside the courthouse wouldn't be all that out of place.

Ahsoka was tried by some kind of special wartime tribunal. Based on the nominal late-19th/early-20th century social mores of Star Wars, a rather immediate execution following conviction in such a tribunal would not be unreasonable.


As I understand it they had to make a formal military structure from scratch because they didn't want the clones to be in charge of themselves and then filled it in with members of the federal police and various local militaries. How much legal structure they had around the Grand Army is unclear, but they seem to have had an idea of things like dereliction of duty, treason, mutiny and refusal to follow orders. I don't think there was a proper judiciary to oversee prosecutions, or military trials for most matters, I think it's more a matter of local commanders having the jurisdiction to execute their subordinates should they deem it necessary.

There's a sense that these things were comparatively underdeveloped for a military of this size, in part because the clones were literally inhumanly loyal and dedicated. While we do have a single example of desertion, Cut Lawquane, it seems to have been a massive anomaly. So yeah, in the rare occasions were any need for disciplinary action of this kind arose, it seems to have been largely handled on an ad hoc basis by the commanders in question.


IIRC some Jedi did peacefully leave the Order during the Clone Wars, and they weren't charged for it, so Anakin probably wouldn't have been in any legal trouble for leaving, but it would still be a massive decision for him to make. It also would probably ruin Padme's career if he left the military and Jedi in order to make their relationship public. War hero general and propaganda darling abandons the war effort to spend time with peace activist senator wife? A lot of people would see that as a massive betrayal.

If Anakin and Padme played things smart, the move would be to reveal their relationship first and then force the Jedi Order to expel him, something that would have shifted a huge amount of the blame away from the couple and onto the Jedi instead. Padme still probably would have been pushed out of the Senate, but the damage to her career would be manageable, especially if she resigned immediately following an announcement. She was still beloved on Naboo, and could have returned to the Senate later on (she's only in her twenties, resuming a political career after Luke and Leia are grown when she's in her 40s or 50s would be very reasonable).

The frustrating part is just how passive Padme is about everything in the relationship. She lets Anakin, a hot-blooded young man who is letting his hormones do the thinking, take the initiative throughout. The moment when she tells Anakin she's pregnant in RotS really gets me, because she's very clearly asking him to decide what to do despite having been pregnant for months and being the one with all the operational freedom in their relationship. For example, as a Jedi Anakin has no money. Leaving the Order means becoming instantly broke and homeless, an issue that Ahsoka faces in her season 7 arc. But at no point to we see Padme make any sort of provision for what they might do if their relationship came out and Anakin was subsequently expelled from the Order even though she knows that Obi-Wan knows and the sword is therefore hanging over their head at all times.

[gbaji]

The frustrating part is just how passive Padme is about everything in the relationship. She lets Anakin, a hot-blooded young man who is letting his hormones do the thinking, take the initiative throughout. The moment when she tells Anakin she's pregnant in RotS really gets me, because she's very clearly asking him to decide what to do despite having been pregnant for months and being the one with all the operational freedom in their relationship. For example, as a Jedi Anakin has no money. Leaving the Order means becoming instantly broke and homeless, an issue that Ahsoka faces in her season 7 arc. But at no point to we see Padme make any sort of provision for what they might do if their relationship came out and Anakin was subsequently expelled from the Order even though she knows that Obi-Wan knows and the sword is therefore hanging over their head at all times.

I get what you're saying with her being too passive through this. But aside from that, it's actually one of the points that I thought TCW did well. The gradual emotional toll on Anakin and Padme over this time period that actually makes his fall make more sense.

In that particular scene in the film, it does come off as odd. As you point out, she's got all the options. His are either "continue lying about things, and stay in the Jedi", or "leave the order, abandon the war, and become a (highly skilled) house husband and hearth protector for the kids". When you tie that in timeline wise with TCW though, it actually works a lot better. He knows things are right at a critical stage. The war could literally be over in days if things go right (which they kinda do actually). The events and background in TCW provide a "light at the end of the tunnel" for the pregancy. Anakin can see that there's a way through this. It gives him greater reason to really push things to end the war, so that he can leave being a military commander behind and be with Padme. As a couple posters have pointed out, the mere fact that a war was going on, and that the Jedi were serving as officers in that war, put additional (somewhat extreme) pressure on the situation. If not for the war, the decision to leave the Jedi Order would be a relatively simple one. Heck, he probably would have been confronted about this long ago. But in the middle of the war, some of the standards of the Jedi (a lot of them actually) got set aside for the purpose of the immediate needs of the war. And that included a number of people just looking the other way as Anakin and Padme's relationship became increasingly obvious. Something that would not have happened otherwise. Absent the war, he'd have been quietly confronted about it, been given a choice, made it, and moved on. No big deal. The assumption is that lots of Jedi left the order for various reasons, and it was not a huge problem. Heck. Dooku did (merely for personal reasons having to do with needing to take over his family's holdings IIRC). Until he rose to be the separatist leader, no one had any problems with him doing that.


TCW also lessens the sudden shock of Anakin's decisions in RotS. With all the extra backstory (yeah, even with some of it being quite contrived), it at least explains why he's so desperate both to find a way to save her and the children *and* increasingly upset with the Jedi order. He basically blames them for all of the personal problems in his life. And yeah. It explains his rash/violent murder of Dooku. He desperately wants to end the war, and if murdering Dooku gets it done faster, then he's willing to do this. It's a shock in the film, but when you watch the gradual lowering of the bar of "what we're willing to do to win" that occurs in TCW, it's not nearly so.

I actually really like TCW for this reason. Yeah, there are some questionable things in there, but overall, it's an excellent series, and really fills in the gaps between Ep2, and Ep3. Especially as it comes to Anakin's mindset. And hey. Along the way, they created a number of cool characters and locations that they've since been able to parlay into a number of other series and stories, so that's all good too!

[Sapphire Guard]

adme's known Anakin has a serious anger management problem since at least his confession regarding murdering the sand people in AotC.

No, she knew he cracked once in a situation when faced with stresses that would break most people (his mother dying from torture in his arms), here he's just being an abusive partner.


I think the idea was that if Ahsoka was found guilty she'd be taken away and shot by a firing squad straight away.

If she was found guilty, she was found guilty, the verdict was already delivered, it makes no difference that the judge hadn't announced it. Nute Gunray had four trials, presujmably some of them were appeals. If it was a military court martial padme had no business being involved. The whole thing just makes no sense.

Anakin can leave the Jedi Order without leaving the military. Worst comes to worst, he can sign up for Naboo Security. There is absolutely no prospect of him being 'broke and homeless'. What, Padme is going to kick him out of her apartment as soon as he's no longer a Jedi? As for employment, well...

Recruiter: Qualifications?

Anakin: I am a professional level pilot, mechanic, and soldier and have superpowers.

Recruiter: References?

Anakin: Would you prefer the Chancellor, the Naboo Senator, or the Queen?

He absolutely can leave if he wants to. He doesn't want to.

[Grim Portent]

Gunray is meant to have gotten free by paying fines to a corrupt system IIRC, which in theory works for the first few of his arrests. He's a fugitive for basically the whole Clone Wars, so my assumption is he just got fined for his first couple of crimes, then jumped bail when it was no longer possible for Palpatine to pull strings to get him no jail time while awaiting his final trial. We know a similar thing happened with Archduke Poggle when he was caught, he was granted clemency for his crimes in exchange for his knowledge of the Death Star and then fled back to the CIS when he got the chance. Also seems to be the case with Watt Tambor, who was arrested two or three times and kept getting out and returning to the CIS within months. Because the Republic legal system is a joke, and has been getting pushed more and more towards corruption over the years, the leaders of these megacorps can get out of almost anything by throwing money around.

In the case of Ahsoka's trial it's being presided over by the supreme-chancellor, aided by the vice-chancellor, the prosecution is a pro-chancellor political appointee military officer with no legal background and the defence attorney is a senator. Pretty sure the jury was also senators. The whole thing is a sham, it's a dictator holding a kangaroo court to lend legitimacy to what is essentially the political assassination of the Jedi and the murder of Ahsoka. Hell, the whole military tribunal thing is only a few years old if even that and was written in part by Palpatine, even by the low standards of Star Wars law it's going to be nonsense that serves as a vehicle for Sheev 'I will make it legal' Palpatine's politics.

I'm 100% convinced the reason Palpatine ends the whole farce when Anakin brings in Bariss is because he has no plausible way to harm Ahsoka without turning Anakin against him at that point, where before he could blame it on the system or the jury or even Tarkin, which is why the whole thing is rushed on the pretext of setting an example and affirming the new law. Note that there's not even a mention of Bariss getting a proper trial, Palpatine just orders to take her away and it gets done.

[gbaji]

Because the Republic legal system is a joke...

Contrasted, as we discovered in Andor, to the Imperial legal system, which is absolutely not a joke.

[Grim Portent]

Contrasted, as we discovered in Andor, to the Imperial legal system, which is absolutely not a joke.

TBH the things that make the Republic system a joke are the same things that make the Imperial system a nightmare. Cronyism, favourable treatment to the rich and powerful, a callous dismissive approach towards the poor, a total lack of concern for the concept of actual justice. Of course it's the same people running it when you get down to it, the corrupt, callous and cruel parts of the Senate are the ones that were most influential under the Republic towards the end, and the ones who remained most important in the Imperial Senate.

[Fyraltari]

Season 6, Episode 7: Crisis at the Heart

Clovis and Padmé arrive on Scipio aboard a Tantive-IV looking ship, escorted by a dozen gunships. They are welcomed by a Muun representative, a few commando droids and Bec Lawise, a Separatist senator, who appeared in a few episodes before, usually to argue for peace from the other side. Lawise and Amidala will be allowed inside the neutral zone to observe the transition of power to Clovis, their respective escorts will wait outside. I guess those espio0nage charges have been dropped off-screen and Padmé isn't under Anakin's custody anymore? The Five are now standing inside their own former chamber with government officials sitting in their chairs sentencing them to prison. They thank Clovis for his service and applaud him when he insists he has no intention of controlling the banks, just restoring order. Lawise asks Amidala if she trusts Clovis to be up to the task and she tells him that, once he's decided what he's fighting for, little stops him from success.

Cut to Clovis's new office. Dooku calls him to offer his congratulations. Clovis thanks him and asks him what he really wants, telling hil he intends to stay neutral between the CIS and the Republic. Dooku says he's here to collect on his investment: he's put Clovis in power, so he belongs to him now, and will do what he says or he'll tell the Republic it was him who gave Clovis the evidence of the Five's embezzlement. Rush refuses to bulge but Dooku then says that the CIS won't payback their loans unless he raises the interest rates of the Republic. Rush realizes that the Seppies not paying would collapse the banks. Dooku hangs up. Cut to Amidala and Lawise standing before the Clovis-lead new Five (I guess), Rush announces that, in order to stabilize the banks and "by the new order of the Traxis Division" (whatever that means) the interests on the Republic loans have just gone up. Padmé, shocked, wants to know what he's doing, bu the bankers just leave (well that was short). Lawise seems just as surprised as she is, but doesn't say a thing.

In the Senate, this news don't go over well, and those who opposed Clovis are giving the others variations on the theme of "I told you so", especially once Palpatine confirms the CIS's interest rates haven't been raised. I think, one of the senators is meant to be Organa but he's not wearing his usual outfit (brown and green instead of dark blue). In the Jedi's own box, Yoda tells Anakin he might have been correct about Clovis. Windu thinks this kind of move, just after being put in charge is very foolish on his part. Yoda wonders if Clovis is trying to get the Republic against him for some reason. Anakin admits this doesn't make sense. Palpatine calls for retraint and some time to analyse the situation. Hey, the Senate is only a lower hemisphere, I though the pod-seat things curved all the way to the roof, but they don't. Huh.

Anyway a Separatist fleet shows up above Scipio. Dooku is on the command ship and he orders a tactical droid with a kraken painted on to attack as "it is time to make rush Clovis look like a powerful Separatist." On the landing pad below, Clone commander Thorn is warned of the incoming fleet and orders his troop to prepare for combat. He warns Padmé that they can't reach her and she should head for a ship and get out of there, pronto. The droids bomb the clones' ships and land infantry that surrounds them and pretty much slaughter them. Thorn puts up a good fight but he's overwhelmed and dies yelling" for the Republic!" Dooku then lands in turn and walks into the neutral zone. See, this is why the entire planet should have been the neutral zone. Padmé calls Palpatine and tells him about the invasion. He says the Senate will surely move to attack Scipio now and that Amidala must leave immediately. She says she can't. Anakin, who I guess was just hanging out with Palps when she called, says she can surely get to a ship. She tells "general Skywalker" that she's trapped, and indeed, a commando droid breaks into her room and takes her away. Palpatine orders Mas Amedda to call for an emergency session of the Senate and tells Anakin it's only right he handles the situation.

Padmé is taken to Clovis's office. he insists he didn't want this. Dooku then walks in and acts like Clovis and him are the best of chums. She recoils while Rush insists it isn't what it looks like. Dooku feigns mild surprise "hasn't she joined their cause? She was instrumental in getting Clovis to power?" I think he's just trolling them at this point. He orders her arrested. This is a bridge too far for Lawise, who insists the Separatist Senate will never approve (of her arrest or of the invasion?). Amidala uses the distraction to grab a B1's blaster, but the Sith Force-pushes her arm to make her shoot Lawise instead of him. Padmé rushes to Lawise but he's beyond help. Rush tells Dooku none of this was part of the deal. PAdmé wants to know what deal he's made. Dooku tells her Clovis has given the banks to the CIS, no more debt for them and no more credits for the Republic. She accuses Clovis's idealism of having been just a front, he says there was nothing he could do. Dooku says everyone has their price and leaves.

Palpatine announces to the senate that they've been deceived, Clovis was a Separatist agent from the beginning and now the CIS is taking Scipio, and the entire economic system, over. The Senate clamors for an invasion. Palpatine announces a "mercy mission" lead by general Skywalker which is cheered on. Some times later, a fleet is boarding to leave Coruscant. Yoda tells Skywalker that he'll face "great emotions" on Scipio and he admits he's worried they'll arrive too late for Amidala. ****, even Yoda knows!? Yoda tells him he was correct about clovis but he must let go of his selfishness and not all is at it seems. Ani says he understands. On Scipio, Darth Tyranus receives a call from his master, telling him the Republic fleet is on its way. He's already leaving and confirms to Sidious that all went as planned: it looks like Clovis coordinated the Separatist takeover. Sidious concludes that the banking system will therefore be placed under the direct control of the Chancellorship and cackles to himself as Tyranus takes off.

In Rush's office, he tells Padmé that he had to strike a deal with Dooku, but he's the one in control and can get rid of him as soon as the situation settles down. Padmé tells him he's "brought war right where they cannot be war". Indeed, the GAR arrives opens fire on the droid fleet. Aboard a gunship, Rex tells Anakin that "initial scans confirms Amidala is still alive." ****ing how!? They'll know more once they're on the ground. Skywalker deploys fighters that look like X-Wings but with two wings instead of four. These are the most obviously looking WW2 fighter planes I've ever seen in SW. Dooku makes it to the command bridge of the flagship where "kraken" tells him they're fully engaged and taking heavy losses. Dooku orders a full retreat and to abandon their forces on the planet below, over the objections of the tactical droid.

Clovis's assistant (I guess?) informs him of the battle above and that Dooku has skedaddled. Skywalker and the 501st land outside of the former neutral zone and engage the ground troops. Skywalker and Rex even take cover right by Thorne's corpse. Ani orders Rex to hold the droid forces there while he pushes on to get Padmé. DI don't know about you, guys, but I get the feeling he's letting his personnal feeling interfere with his command. Meanwhile, Clovis looks on the battle and monologues about his hopes and his legacy. Padmé tells him to turn himself in. While he thinks it over, Anakin comes in and dispatches the droids present. Clovis pulls out a gun and takes Padmé hostage. Wow, dude! Talk about not helping your case. He starts ranting that he's not the villain here and they've all been deceived by Dooku. He exhorts Padmé to tell Anakin, but she's more focused on the fact that he's pointing a gun at her head, for obvious reasons, and Anakin is also not listening, for even more obvious reasons. While that melodrama is unfolding, a clone shoots downa vulture droid that crashes right under Clovis's office. Which is on the last floor of the highest tower of the facility. The wall breaks and half the floor collapses into a slope, making Padmé and Clovis glide to their doom. Anakin catches them both but even with his robot hand, he can't hold both of them. Oh no, if only someone there had the ability to make things and people levitate! Rush tells Anakin to let him go. Padmé tells him not to. I'm honestly surprised he caught the guy in the first place. He strains and strains but to no avail. Rush tells PAdmé he's sorry and lets go of Anakin's hand, falling to his death. Anakin manages to pull his wife up and tells her they're okay. She says she's sorry and he says it's all over.

In the Senate, a representative of the Banking Clan says they now believe that Rush Clovis was behind everything and they ceded all control to the office of the Supreme Chancellor of the galactic Republic. Mon Mothma looks pissed. Palpatine takes the responsability with great humility, yadda yadda, he loves democracy, you know the drill. He concludes his speech with "long live the banks!" which the Senators start chanting while Padmé looks conflicted.

Well that was a really good end to a pretty good arc. Good pacing if a bit rushed (heh).

This is obviously a microcosm of Sidious using the threat of the Separatists to gather more and more authority, just coated with some, let's say, odd understandings of banking. Also, what does that mean with regards to San Hill being on the Separatist Council in RotS?

I have mixed feeling about the message regarding banking here, but I don't think I can expand on that while staying within the confines of the rules.

I'm not really sure why "Dooku gave me the evidence" would be a problem for Clovis since it's already openly understood that the CIS wanted to get rid of corruption within the banks and supported his nomination.

I guess Anakin and Padmé are back together now? They've got to find a better way than "rescue her from a hostage crisis" to resolve their issues. Oh, right...

I'm fine with Clovis dying here, I feel any longer would be overstaying his welcome.

So, whose heart was in crisis there, anyhow?

Next up: The Disappeared.

[McNum]

Season 6, Episode 7: Crisis at the Heart

Clovis and Padmé arrive on Scipio aboard a Tantive-IV looking ship, escorted by a dozen gunships. They are welcomed by a Muun representative, a few commando droids and Bec Lawise, a Separatist senator, who appeared in a few episodes before, usually to argue for peace from the other side. Lawise and Amidala will be allowed inside the neutral zone to observe the transition of power to Clovis, their respective escorts will wait outside. I guess those espio0nage charges have been dropped off-screen and Padmé isn't under Anakin's custody anymore? The Five are now standing inside their own former chamber with government officials sitting in their chairs sentencing them to prison. They thank Clovis for his service and applaud him when he insists he has no intention of controlling the banks, just restoring order. Lawise asks Amidala if she trusts Clovis to be up to the task and she tells him that, once he's decided what he's fighting for, little stops him from success.

Cut to Clovis's new office. Dooku calls him to offer his congratulations. Clovis thanks him and asks him what he really wants, telling hil he intends to stay neutral between the CIS and the Republic. Dooku says he's here to collect on his investment: he's put Clovis in power, so he belongs to him now, and will do what he says or he'll tell the Republic it was him who gave Clovis the evidence of the Five's embezzlement. Rush refuses to bulge but Dooku then says that the CIS won't payback their loans unless he raises the interest rates of the Republic. Rush realizes that the Seppies not paying would collapse the banks. Dooku hangs up. Cut to Amidala and Lawise standing before the Clovis-lead new Five (I guess), Rush announces that, in order to stabilize the banks and "by the new order of the Traxis Division" (whatever that means) the interests on the Republic loans have just gone up. Padmé, shocked, wants to know what he's doing, bu the bankers just leave (well that was short). Lawise seems just as surprised as she is, but doesn't say a thing.

In the Senate, this news don't go over well, and those who opposed Clovis are giving the others variations on the theme of "I told you so", especially once Palpatine confirms the CIS's interest rates haven't been raised. I think, one of the senators is meant to be Organa but he's not wearing his usual outfit (brown and green instead of dark blue). In the Jedi's own box, Yoda tells Anakin he might have been correct about Clovis. Windu thinks this kind of move, just after being put in charge is very foolish on his part. Yoda wonders if Clovis is trying to get the Republic against him for some reason. Anakin admits this doesn't make sense. Palpatine calls for retraint and some time to analyse the situation. Hey, the Senate is only a lower hemisphere, I though the pod-seat things curved all the way to the roof, but they don't. Huh.

Anyway a Separatist fleet shows up above Scipio. Dooku is on the command ship and he orders a tactical droid with a kraken painted on to attack as "it is time to make rush Clovis look like a powerful Separatist." On the landing pad below, Clone commander Thorn is warned of the incoming fleet and orders his troop to prepare for combat. He warns Padmé that they can't reach her and she should head for a ship and get out of there, pronto. The droids bomb the clones' ships and land infantry that surrounds them and pretty much slaughter them. Thorn puts up a good fight but he's overwhelmed and dies yelling" for the Republic!" Dooku then lands in turn and walks into the neutral zone. See, this is why the entire planet should have been the neutral zone. Padmé calls Palpatine and tells him about the invasion. He says the Senate will surely move to attack Scipio now and that Amidala must leave immediately. She says she can't. Anakin, who I guess was just hanging out with Palps when she called, says she can surely get to a ship. She tells "general Skywalker" that she's trapped, and indeed, a commando droid breaks into her room and takes her away. Palpatine orders Mas Amedda to call for an emergency session of the Senate and tells Anakin it's only right he handles the situation.

Padmé is taken to Clovis's office. he insists he didn't want this. Dooku then walks in and acts like Clovis and him are the best of chums. She recoils while Rush insists it isn't what it looks like. Dooku feigns mild surprise "hasn't she joined their cause? She was instrumental in getting Clovis to power?" I think he's just trolling them at this point. He orders her arrested. This is a bridge too far for Lawise, who insists the Separatist Senate will never approve (of her arrest or of the invasion?). Amidala uses the distraction to grab a B1's blaster, but the Sith Force-pushes her arm to make her shoot Lawise instead of him. Padmé rushes to Lawise but he's beyond help. Rush tells Dooku none of this was part of the deal. PAdmé wants to know what deal he's made. Dooku tells her Clovis has given the banks to the CIS, no more debt for them and no more credits for the Republic. She accuses Clovis's idealism of having been just a front, he says there was nothing he could do. Dooku says everyone has their price and leaves.

Palpatine announces to the senate that they've been deceived, Clovis was a Separatist agent from the beginning and now the CIS is taking Scipio, and the entire economic system, over. The Senate clamors for an invasion. Palpatine announces a "mercy mission" lead by general Skywalker which is cheered on. Some times later, a fleet is boarding to leave Coruscant. Yoda tells Skywalker that he'll face "great emotions" on Scipio and he admits he's worried they'll arrive too late for Amidala. ****, even Yoda knows!? Yoda tells him he was correct about clovis but he must let go of his selfishness and not all is at it seems. Ani says he understands. On Scipio, Darth Tyranus receives a call from his master, telling him the Republic fleet is on its way. He's already leaving and confirms to Sidious that all went as planned: it looks like Clovis coordinated the Separatist takeover. Sidious concludes that the banking system will therefore be placed under the direct control of the Chancellorship and cackles to himself as Tyranus takes off.

In Rush's office, he tells Padmé that he had to strike a deal with Dooku, but he's the one in control and can get rid of him as soon as the situation settles down. Padmé tells him he's "brought war right where they cannot be war". Indeed, the GAR arrives opens fire on the droid fleet. Aboard a gunship, Rex tells Anakin that "initial scans confirms Amidala is still alive." ****ing how!? They'll know more once they're on the ground. Skywalker deploys fighters that look like X-Wings but with two wings instead of four. These are the most obviously looking WW2 fighter planes I've ever seen in SW. Dooku makes it to the command bridge of the flagship where "kraken" tells him they're fully engaged and taking heavy losses. Dooku orders a full retreat and to abandon their forces on the planet below, over the objections of the tactical droid.

Clovis's assistant (I guess?) informs him of the battle above and that Dooku has skedaddled. Skywalker and the 501st land outside of the former neutral zone and engage the ground troops. Skywalker and Rex even take cover right by Thorne's corpse. Ani orders Rex to hold the droid forces there while he pushes on to get Padmé. DI don't know about you, guys, but I get the feeling he's letting his personnal feeling interfere with his command. Meanwhile, Clovis looks on the battle and monologues about his hopes and his legacy. Padmé tells him to turn himself in. While he thinks it over, Anakin comes in and dispatches the droids present. Clovis pulls out a gun and takes Padmé hostage. Wow, dude! Talk about not helping your case. He starts ranting that he's not the villain here and they've all been deceived by Dooku. He exhorts Padmé to tell Anakin, but she's more focused on the fact that he's pointing a gun at her head, for obvious reasons, and Anakin is also not listening, for even more obvious reasons. While that melodrama is unfolding, a clone shoots downa vulture droid that crashes right under Clovis's office. Which is on the last floor of the highest tower of the facility. The wall breaks and half the floor collapses into a slope, making Padmé and Clovis glide to their doom. Anakin catches them both but even with his robot hand, he can't hold both of them. Oh no, if only someone there had the ability to make things and people levitate! Rush tells Anakin to let him go. Padmé tells him not to. I'm honestly surprised he caught the guy in the first place. He strains and strains but to no avail. Rush tells PAdmé he's sorry and lets go of Anakin's hand, falling to his death. Anakin manages to pull his wife up and tells her they're okay. She says she's sorry and he says it's all over.

In the Senate, a representative of the Banking Clan says they now believe that Rush Clovis was behind everything and they ceded all control to the office of the Supreme Chancellor of the galactic Republic. Mon Mothma looks pissed. Palpatine takes the responsability with great humility, yadda yadda, he loves democracy, you know the drill. He concludes his speech with "long live the banks!" which the Senators start chanting while Padmé looks conflicted.

Well that was a really good end to a pretty good arc. Good pacing if a bit rushed (heh).

This is obviously a microcosm of Sidious using the threat of the Separatists to gather more and more authority, just coated with some, let's say, odd understandings of banking. Also, what does that mean with regards to San Hill being on the Separatist Council in RotS?

I have mixed feeling about the message regarding banking here, but I don't think I can expand on that while staying within the confines of the rules.

I'm not really sure why "Dooku gave me the evidence" would be a problem for Clovis since it's already openly understood that the CIS wanted to get rid of corruption within the banks and supported his nomination.

I guess Anakin and Padmé are back together now? They've got to find a better way than "rescue her from a hostage crisis" to resolve their issues. Oh, right...

I'm fine with Clovis dying here, I feel any longer would be overstaying his welcome.

So, whose heart was in crisis there, anyhow?

Next up: The Disappeared.
Rush is really set up to be a useful idiot for the Separatists. He's ambitious enough to want to make a name for himself, gullible enough to believe a lie if it will make him look good, and he really ticks Anakin off. I imagine Palpatine must have laughed at how effective Rush was at furthering his plans and making it look like incompetence. And then he outlived his usefulness and was disposed of in a tragic battlefield accident. Really, Palpatine must have been chuckling to himself when he read the reports. It really couldn't have gone better for him and he barely had to lift a finger for it to happen.

So The Disappeared next? Interesting.

[gbaji]

Honestly, the entire banking storyline was about the weakest in the entire series. Bothered me because it appeared as though it was written by people who's understanding of actual banking was limited to "I have a checking account with my local commercial bank" level. I get that the point was all about manipulation of events to shift power to where Palpatine ultimately wanted it, but the actual events and rationalizations made zero sense to me. And yeah. I also get that this is basically "puff fantasy", and maybe not worry about the details too much. But if you're going to bother with a plot line about banking, why not at least have some basic understanding of macro economics to go along with it?


I have mixed feeling about the message regarding banking here, but I don't think I can expand on that while staying within the confines of the rules.

Yeah. Hence my post from a while back about this entire story arc. And yup. Not something we can go into detail about except to just say "that's not actually how banking/money/credit/whatever works", and leave it at that.

And honestly, while I did more or less just facepalm repeatedly while watching it, the point isn't really about the details (which are just laughably bad), but the general theme/direction of "Palpatine using the fact that he's controlling both sides of the war to put power directly into his own hands". And that part works just fine IMO. At the end of the day, the entire purpose of the Clone Wars was to take power (or many types) that was spread out across the Galaxy under the Republic, and put it into Palpatine's direct control so he could use it as Emperor later. So this story arc, while laughable in many ways, does help tell that broader story of how Palpatine has the power to just declare himself Emperor in RotS.

[Fyraltari]

Season 6, Episode 8: The Disappeared

"Without Darkness, there cannot be Light" says the little proverb-thing at the beginning. Urgh...

The narrator informs us that planet Bardotta has been an oasis of peace during the Clone War, but the ancient ways of the Bardottan people (a species of vaguely bird-like reptile humanoids) are now threatened by the galactic conflict*. More precisely, their spiritual leaders are vanishing one by one, so Queen Julia is beseeching the Republic Senate for help. Palpatine proposes to send Padmé or Bail to deal with the problem (not sure what they could do, to be honest, police-work isn't exactly their forté) but Julia already has someone in mind... Representative Binks. Well, I guess it's been a while. Palpatine informs the Jedi Council (out of courtesy? I don't really see why he feels the need to get them involved.) Julia wouldn't say why Jar-Jar specifically, though, and they're as confused as he is. Anyway, Palps explains that the missing people are mystics belonging to an order called "the Dagoyan Masters". Yoda is familiar with that group. Like the Jedi or the Sith, the Dagoyan are strongly Force-sensitive. Unlike the Jedi or the Sith, the Dagoyan have no martial tradition. In fact, they only ever use the Force passively to sense "Intuition. Knowledge. The Harmony of the Universe." Windu and Yoda further explains that the Dagoyans do not trust the Jedi at all because, "long ago", Bardottan children were taken into the Jedi Order and the Dagoyan accused the Jedi of kidnapping. So... the Queen doesn't want anyone, especially not a Jedi, to accompany Jar-Jar. Windu immediately objects that Binks would be out of his depth to solve a situation like that. Palpatine agrees ad says he'll await the Jedi Council's decision on the matter. Kenobi volunteers Windu to go to Bardotta and it is agreed.

Windu and Jar-Jar (wearing a suprinsgly schwanky outfit) land on Bardotta. They get on... about as well as you'd expect. Jar-Jar explains that the queen is his "pallo" and that he knows her "for a longer time". I'm guessing from the timeskip between TPM and AotC. The Royal palace is situated on some kind of mountainous formation jutting out of the clouds. Really like the look of it. As they land, an official immediately complains about the presence of a Jedi and the captain of the guard confiscates Mace's lightsaber. However, Representative binks is an honored guest of the queen and "hissa with missa". They are taken to a council chamber/throne room. The Queen demands to know why he brought a Jedi with him instead of coming alone, as requested. Jar-Jar tells "queenie" that "Masterin Mace" is his "pallo" which the Queen, let's say creatively, interprets as windu being Binks's servant. Jar-Jar enthusiastically agrees while Windu looks pissed. Windu is allowed to stay on the planet but is dismissed for the rest of the audience. As soon as he's out, Julia drops the confident, powerful queen persona and addresses Jar-Jar by his first name. She says that the vanishing of the Dagoyan Masters (she points to several empty chairs in the council room, with only four members remaining) is the realization of an ancient prophecy that foretells a "great darkness" engulfing the galaxy. Binks says he's not going to let that happen and the queen tells to High Seneschal Peteen (the official from earlier) that she must speak to Jar-Jar alone. The seneschal and the Dagoyan leaves, she walks to Jar-Jar and motions, making all the guards turn away from the two of them. Err... Pretty sure they can still hear everything, they're standing like three meters away. She calls him "my love" and says it's been too long since they've seen each other. Then she tells him to come. Pause. Meditate with her. And she kisses him.

Welp. Jar-Jar's got a girlfriend. That's new. Don't really know what to make of that information, to be honest.

Some time later, MAce is reporting to Yoda. He can feel a great disturbance of the Force all around him. Yoda opines that the locals' distrust of the Jedi may have made Bardotta a good place to hide for evil. Yep, that's for sure. The Jedi never fail to find evil when it's hiding close to them. On Bardotta, who knows, there could be a Sith Lord taking over or something, but if there were Jedi there, like on Coruscant that would never happen. Could you imagine a Sith taking over the Republic's Senate? Ridiculous, I tells you. Anyway, Yoda stresses that the Dagoyan Masters' mind flow within the Living Force and that is an essential connection, whatever their opinion of the Jedi is. Windu complains that Jar-Jar has been alone with the queen for a long time (Yoda says maybe the Dagoyan find his child-like innocent mind appealing) and Windu is worried about what they're up to. He tries to get in, but the guards placed before the door of her appartements say the queen wanted no interruption. Meanwhile, Jar-Jar and Julia are in the middle of some... synchronized dancing. That's not an euphemism, by the way, that's what they're doing. Fully clothed and all. this is still a family-friendly show, you know. She tells him she trusts him to help her in ways others cannot. Windu tries to the Jedi mind-trick on the guards, but the captain says he should know better than to try that on a Dagoyan. MAce smiles, steps back then lightly joggs away in the most suspicious manner imaginable. Both guards follow him. Well, so much for the powers of intuition of the Dagoyan. Heh, I guess that guy isn't a Dagoyan Master. Inside, the queen tells Binks she's discovered a terrible secret "buried within the rippling ways of the Force", Jar-Jar wisely suggests he should get Mace to hear this. She refuses to trust the Jedi with this secret. Meanwhile, Windu evades the guards by climbing to the ceiling and back-tracks to the queen's apartments. Julia explains that she meditated to tray to discover the whereabouts of the missing Masters and stumbled upon a terrible plot. And then Windu barges in. Good timing, Mace! The Queen, unsurprisingly refuses to excuse the interruption even when Mace says the guards who should have stopped him had "other preoccupation" and they immedaitely walk in, apologizing for letting him slip past us. Really, Windu, just what did you think was going to happen? Naturally, the queen takes this incident as further proof of the Jedi's deceptive nature. Jar-Jar asks her to let him handle this and that Mace won't cause any more trouble. She decides to wait there while he goes have a talk with Mace.

You know, in ESB when Yoda tests Luke's patience by acting like a weird little goblin for a while? Yeah, I think Master Mace Windu, the Order's own second-in-command would have failed that test just as bad.

Once they're out of sight, Windu pushes Jar-Jar against a wall and angrily demands to know what he thinks he's doing. Dude, he's the one salvaging the diplomatic incident your reckless ass just started. "Where were you last night!? - Doing? Missa love da Queen Julia. Whatsa wrong with dat?" So... Is that "love" meant to be present or past tense? Because that changes the meaning of the sentence a lot. Windu says he's endangering the mission, but Jar-Jar replies that his love for "beautiful Julia" is the only theing getting her to talk, isince she only trusts him and now Mace, a little bit. I didn't think I would ever, ever say this but... I'm with Jar-Jar Binks on this one. I understand why Mace doesn't trust him (believe me I do), but he's the one being unreasonable here. Huh, that felt weird to write. MAce says the Force is out of balance there and asks if the queen said anything about that. Jar-Jar points out that she was about to when he rushed in. Windu (not apologizing) says that since the bardottans seem intent on keeping them separate, he's giving Jar-Jar a communicator and asks him to call him once he's learned anything. Binks says he will, but only if Julia agrees.

Jar-Jar walks in and quickly shouts for Mace to come in: Julia has vanished! Jar-jar panicks while Windu points out that this doesn't make sense, the two of them and the guards were in the corridor leading to the only way in the room, no-one could have come in or out without their noticing. The captain decides to convene the council. Well, what's left of it, anyway. Seneschal Peteen says events are unfolding as the prophecy stated and if the queen does not return in "three rotations", then an era of darkness will cover the galaxy. Windu tries to address the council but one of the Masters yells that his coming was a sin and everyone starts shouting. Jar-Jar calms them down, says that his "bombad pallo queenie Julia" trusted him to help and that him and his "loyal helper masterin Mace" will find her and bring her back. This gets him an ovation. Mace tells him to ask them about the origins of the prophecy. The captain explains that it is the word of the Frongawl Clan who worshipped the ancient demon Malmural. They have an ancient, cursed and evil shrine located just under the temple (convenient). No-one who goes there ever come back. So, that's where Mace and Jar-Jar will head first. takes a moment for Binks to realize that will be "bombad trouble".

The captain of the guard lead our two heroes to the entrance of the shrine, then, as the three of them step in the dark tunnels with torches (I suppose flashlights wouldn't fit the aesthetic), he hands Windu his weapon back. He gives them a history lesson. In early Bardottan history, the Frongawl ruled the planet. They were warriors, often called barbarians, but a spiritual people too. As they enter a large room, Jar-Jar walks through a passageway without the other noticing and picks up a piece of the queen's headdress. and he is immediately attacked by a masked Bardottan who throws a blue powder at him. Ang Jar-Jar starts to disappear. Windu parkours towards him but the passageway closes just before he can reach him. Hey, remember when TPM established that Force-speed was a thing? Because that was a bad decision, precisely for scenes like this. Fortunately, a large slab of stone isn't much of an obstacle for Jedi Master and Mace simply Force-pushes it back open. He and the guard can't find anyone, only Jar-Jar's torch is left. Windu isntructs the Dagoyan to go get help while he follows the corridor after Jar-Jar.

We see that Jar-Jar isn't actually gone, though. He is just invisible and being carried by his kidnapper (not sure what the point of making him invisible was, since they're not in the palace, but I guess we needed an explanation of the locked room mystery). The man is carrying him to a large cave straight out of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. There's lava on the ground, a large ramp leading down to the maw of a dragon-statue crackling with green energy and more masked Bardottans chanting in the red light. Binks is put into a hanging cage that is then elevated to the roof. He becomes visible again and starts chatting with the captives in the other cages. They are, of course, the missing Masters. One of them, Joseph, explains that they are to be sacrificed to Malmural. Then
Mace calls Jar-Jar on his communicator. The Gungan's explanation of what's going on aren't the most clear, but Windu can just follow the communiactor's signal to find him. The Frongawl move the cages, bringing one of the Masters down, this shakes Jar-Jar's enough that he drops his communicator to the floor below (these things are built solid!) and one of the guards crush it. Just as Mace reaches a fork.

Jar-Jar's cage is lowered somewhat and he spots Julia, chained up to a statue at the center of the shrine. She tells him that the Frongawl are "stealing the Force within [them]". The Frongawl leader then gathers some green mist/liquid from a fountain and sprinkles it on the Dagoyan, putting him in a trance, he then grabs a crystal ball containing green energy that looks identical to the Nightsister's and says that the demon of war will be sated as the Frongawl steal their essence. He pushes the Dagoyan, who slides on the ramp, is caught by the green lightning in the maw of the statue and screams in pain as his body is consumed and his soul (? you can briefly see a ghostly copy of himself be separated from his body) is shot inside the crystal ball in the form of a green bolt. Mace senses this and rushes down one of the two paths. The Frongawl take Jar-Jar out of his cage and bring him to the leader who puts in front of the slide while threatening him with a sword (one of the cultist places the ball in the mist fountain). Binks says he's not "big with da Force" but the leader replies that the Force resides in all living things and what little Jar-Jar possesses will be theirs. Waste not, want not, I suppose.

Mace reaches the entrance of the cave, makes his presence known and Force-jumps all the way to the base of the shrine. He beats up a warrior and grabs his spear before using it to knock out other Frongawl clanmen. Er... you remmeber you got your lightsaber back, right? Jar-Jar takes adavntage of the distraction to grab one of the guards spear and threaten the one who surround him with it, claiming to be a "bombad warrior". His wild flailing manages to knowck out the grunts, but the leader uses his sword to cut Jar-Jar's spear to pieces. I don't know if the sword is impressive or the spear really cheap. He manages to kick the gungan down the ramp, but fortunatley, Mace just made his way to the bottom of that very ramp and levitates Jar-Jar to safety. Eventually. He does drop him above the lava to briefly kick a dude and throw him to his death, forcing the Jedi to do a "take my hand" and help Jar-Jar (who was hanging for dear life) back up. What ran out of Force points? they run up the staircase towards the queen, but warriors block their way while more are throwing spears at them from below. Windu Force-throws Jar-Jar all the way up to "save da queenie" while he finally remembers his lightsaber and switches it on. Mace fights the guard but still doesn't just start slicing them up, instead using some non-lethal looking kicks punches. He even switches his saber off again to grab a sliced-up spear and use it as a pole to throw a dude at his comrades in arms. Meanwhile, the leader takes the semi-conscious queen with him and flees through a door that just opened between the statue's legs, with Jar-Jar in pursuit. One warrior throws his spear at MAce, misses him, empalling another Frongawl and , realizing it's just him, weaponless, left against the Jedi, promptly legs it. Mace follows behind Jar-Jar. The cult leader manages to get inside a frankly sick-looking space-ship with wings that unfurl like a ladybug or a butterfly and flies off to the moon with the queen.

Our two heroes are back with the council. One dagoyan reiterates that if the cult of Malmural manages to steal the queen's essence, darkness will fall over the stars. Jar-Jar says he may not be a "bombad warrior" but he will bring back their "queenie" with the help of his "bombad pallo, Masterin Mace." The Bardottan cheer. Mace says it might be the place, but... Jar-Jar is starting to make sense for him.

*They're really not. The situation is completely unrelated.

Well, it only took them six season but they managed it! They made Jar-Jar tolerable. Likeable even!

This was fun romp, clearly an hommage to Indiana Jones-like adventure. I also really like the scenery, generally the episode looks really good.

I feel like this episode might fuel the fires of the recent discussions about Force traditions vs Jedi and whether force-sensitive are "born special" on other threads. I don't really like the idea that you can harvest someone's Force as if it were a resource store din the body like fat or something. It feels video-gamey (and ideed there was something like that serving as a central plot point of KotOR II, but I felt it was done better.

Jar-Jar having a girlfriend is unexpected. I wonder how they met. I find it funny that,d espite not being a mammal, they still felt the need to give her breasts and have her wear a small top that emphasizes her cleavage.

It's not so often we get to hear about non-Jedi religion in this galaxy. Too bad this one seems to boil down to "evil demaon demands human sacrifices to conquer the world." Oh, well. At least the Dagoyan have the potential to be more interesting than that.

I like the way Mace grows to trust Jar-Jar, it's clearly meant to elicit the same response from the audience, but it works.

Mace is at his most reckless here. I realize it's hard to write about enlightened, self-controlled, wise characters because that severely hampers their ability to create conflict and without conflict there's no plot, and the best kind of conflict is the one that arises organically from the protagonist's flaws rather than being an external force. But still, it sounds like he's swapped places with Anakin here.


Next up: The Disappeared, part II. Well that's straightforward.

[Grim Portent]

Season 6, Episode 8: The Disappeared
The narrator informs us that planet Bardotta has been an oasis of peace during the Clone War, but the ancient ways of the Bardottan people (a species of vaguely bird-like reptile humanoids)

Fun little thing, these guys first appeared as one of the podracers in the Phantom Menace.



I feel like this episode might fuel the fires of the recent discussions about Force traditions vs Jedi and whether force-sensitive are "born special" on other threads. I don't really like the idea that you can harvest someone's Force as if it were a resource store din the body like fat or something. It feels video-gamey (and ideed there was something like that serving as a central plot point of KotOR II, but I felt it was done better.

I think a person's Force energy in this context is basically just their soul, or life force. Luminous beings we are, return to the Cosmic Force, so on and so forth. The fundamental essence of all living things comes from the Force, and should return to the Force upon death to be recycled into new life, but it can be stolen with unwholesome methods like Dathomiri Magick, this cult's rituals, Sith shenanigans and so on that defy the natural cycle of life and death.

[Fyraltari]

I think a person's Force energy in this context is basically just their soul, or life force. Luminous beings we are, return to the Cosmic Force, so on and so forth. The fundamental essence of all living things comes from the Force, and should return to the Force upon death to be recycled into new life, but it can be stolen with unwholesome methods like Dathomiri Magick, this cult's rituals, Sith shenanigans and so on that defy the natural cycle of life and death.

Wouldn't that implies that Force-sensitive people have greater souls than other people? I don't really like the concept of souls to begin with, but that I really don't like.

[Grim Portent]

Wouldn't that implies that Force-sensitive people have greater souls than other people? I don't really like the concept of souls to begin with, but that I really don't like.

Not necessarily, it could just mean that they are more in tune with their souls and the natural connection to the force that all living things have on some level, and that greater connection allows for siphoning off ambient parts of the Living Force when draining them.

Besides which, the idea that having a larger soul = better isn't really logical anyway. Souls aren't required for sapience, emotion or morality, droids are capable of all three and have no souls. R2-D2 is superior (in as much as one person can be better than another) to a lot of other people, droids, meatbags and even Jedi, and he's a box of lights and wires with a sassy attitude.

I do lean towards the idea that Force-sensitives do have bigger souls though, or rather that they are bigger pieces of the Cosmic Force when compared to other life, with some of the animals and plants with a force-connection potentially having bigger 'souls' than some sapient species. All living things* including plants and even some planets in the GFFA are ultimately spawned from the Force, it is the originator of life in the galaxy, and all things are semi-independant extensions of it. There is, cosmically speaking, no difference between a human, a hutt, a slug and a blade of grass.

*Some horror themed monsters and things from other galaxies possibly being excluded from this. Yuuzhan Vong being the classic Legends example.

[Mechalich]

I feel like this episode might fuel the fires of the recent discussions about Force traditions vs Jedi and whether force-sensitive are "born special" on other threads. I don't really like the idea that you can harvest someone's Force as if it were a resource store din the body like fat or something. It feels video-gamey (and ideed there was something like that serving as a central plot point of KotOR II, but I felt it was done better.

I think the idea is that it's possible to pull the Force through another person (or in some cases object), by basically forcing them into an involuntary transfer of energy. This stresses the body, as might be imagined, so there's a limit on how much someone can be put through before they just die from overwhelming physiological stress. As such, persons with greater connections to the Force and/or stronger physiques can handle more. So the relevant analogy is not a battery, but a circuit, with death resulting from overloading the circuit and metaphorically blowing the fuse.


Jar-Jar having a girlfriend is unexpected. I wonder how they met. I find it funny that,d espite not being a mammal, they still felt the need to give her breasts and have her wear a small top that emphasizes her cleavage.

Star Wars is really bad about this, to the point of giving female Mon Calamari breasts. Possibly it's intended to make differentiation easier on a younger audience.


Mace is at his most reckless here. I realize it's hard to write about enlightened, self-controlled, wise characters because that severely hampers their ability to create conflict and without conflict there's no plot, and the best kind of conflict is the one that arises organically from the protagonist's flaws rather than being an external force. But still, it sounds like he's swapped places with Anakin here.

Mace is a perfectionist who does not suffer fools, has little tolerance for those who don't meet his standards, and is naturally curt. He's a good example of how it's possible to be enlightened, self-controlled, and wise while still also being a massive jerk.

[McNum]

I feel like The Disappeared is this season's episode that was clearly made as a challenge. "Can we make a Jar-Jar focused story where people like him and cheer for him?" Turns out, yes. Yes they could. And the trick was making a buddy cop comedy with Mace Windu, except it's Jar-Jar who knows what's going on.

But this is the show that brought us Savage Oppress, brother of Darth Maul and pulled it off with a straight face. And yet I feel like a Jar-Jar focused two-parter might have been the bigger challenge.

[Errorname]

Mace is at his most reckless here. I realize it's hard to write about enlightened, self-controlled, wise characters because that severely hampers their ability to create conflict and without conflict there's no plot, and the best kind of conflict is the one that arises organically from the protagonist's flaws rather than being an external force. But still, it sounds like he's swapped places with Anakin here.

I don't think Mace is ever really presented as wise. Honestly he's got the opposite problem to Anakin, while he's way too attached and possessive of the people close to him, Mace is detached in a way that comes off as condescending and callous. Mace is a good soldier, but that's about all he's got going for him.

[runeghost]

I don't think Mace is ever really presented as wise. Honestly he's got the opposite problem to Anakin, while he's way too attached and possessive of the people close to him, Mace is detached in a way that comes off as condescending and callous. Mace is a good soldier, but that's about all he's got going for him.

Mace has always struck me as a useful reference character for the 'paladin focused on doing good by defeating evil'. Useful, because he's not over the top. He's not evil pretending to be good to justify himself. He really is a good guy, and under most circumstances (say, those not being manipulated by a powerful Sith Lord running endlessly stacked Xanatos Gambits) he'd be fine and everyone would be better off for his presence.

But when presented with subtle, complex problems not amenable to easy solutions... he tries to find the big-bad and hit it. Revenge of the Sith is the perfect example of this. "Holy Force-whiskers, Palpatine is a Sith Lord!" And he immediately heads out to confront him, without any concern for "a Sith Lord has been puppeting a galaxy-wide war for years from a position of immense power". The Jedis' reaction to learning about Darth Sidious/Palpatine ought to have been "Whoa. We need to go about this very, very carefully. We're obviously in much deeper than we thought, and we didn't know it until this moment."

In my head-canon, the Jedi Order's inability to usefully assess or act is something Sidious deliberately engineered over decades (if not centuries). He'd already destroyed them, the duel with Windu (and I'm still grumpy on how Lucas chose to cut most of it) and Order 66 were just actualizing something that had been effectively completed long before.

And as I write that, I just had a thought: Palpatine killed the Jedi Order. How many individual Jedi were out running around was ultimately irrelevant, so long as the Order couldn't be restored. Makes all the back-and-forth about how many Jedi survived kind of pointless. (And also makes the destruction of Luke's school the more painful.) Scattered Jedi with apprentices are not the Order.

[Errorname]

Mace Windu is a dude who has been promoted beyond his level of competence. He is a good warrior, with a strong sense of discipline, obviously the sort of guy who would perform well enough to earn a high seat, but he has no people skills and a real coldness about him. He's the only Jedi who could have held his own against Palpatine like he did, but literally any other Jedi would have had better odds of persuading Anakin to break the stalemate in their favour.

[Fyraltari]

Season 6, Episode 9: The Disappeared, Part II

Mace and Jar Jar leave Bardotta looking for the missing queen. Jar Jar describes what the Frongawl were doing. MAce concludes that they are harvesting the living Force but cannot use it like a Jedi or a Sith would. He also senses a "darker presence" at work. However, the good news is that such a gathering of Living Force is something that Mace can sense form very far away, which should lead them to the cultists. Yeah, everybody stops calling the Frongawl a clan in this one, they're just cultists now, then again, they have a lot of non-Bardottan members in this one too. Windu even agrees with Jar Jar that they make a "bombad team".

Menawhile on some desert moon, the Frongawl land in a city and are greeted by more of their numbers, these ones armed with blasters rather than pointy sticks. The local leader tells his master that he had another vision of the "Great Mother" warning him that the Jedi know about the sphere and is on their trail. Hmm... green misty magic, a "Great Mother" I wonder who that could be. the Frongawl decide to hurry, once the queen is sacrificed and the Force transferred to the Great Mother, she can deal with the Jedi herself.

As our duo lands Jar Jar is itching to run into the city, but Mace tells him to calm down, rushing in blindly is just going to waste time. He focuses and gets a good sense of where the sphere and the queen are. Now, it's time to rush in. They reach a marketsquare Mace saw through the Force and the Jedi jumps onto the rooftops to try to find their quarry. Julia, who is being carried on a cultist's shoulder not even ten meters from where Jar Jar is calls to him. Binks runs after her and Windu after him. The Gungan runs into a gaggle of cultists and flees in the opposite direction in a panic. The pursuing minions run into Windu who starts fighting them. Jar Jar keeps running until he stumbles on two cultists in full regalia having a chat. I think these guy just straight up run this town. Jar Jar correctly guesses that the cultists with the queen are going to pass through there. But when they do he makes his presence known and the leader just sics some goons on him and keep going. Windu, who is just done non-lethally knocking out his opponents catches up to them (I think they're all just going in circle at this point) and decides to keep farming EXP while he tells Jar Jar to keep following the queen.

Next obstacle is a cultist with a turret-mounted machine-gun. All his fellows where using like medieval weapons, respect to this guy for remembering this is a sci-fi setting. He laughs maniacally and starts destroying the nearby building in trying to kill the Representative. Windu overhears and starts parkouring his way to there. Binks decides to be brave and runs straight into the killzone... just as Mace lands on the cultist, taking him out of action. They keep the chase on. Spotting them, the leader oreders one of his underlings, who doesn't wear a mask but has the cult's symbol tatooed on his forehead, to stop them. The dude whistles to summon... two domesticated gundarks. This gives Windu pause, which makes Jar Jar crash into him, allowing the beastmaster to use his whip to get hold of the Jedi's lightsaber. Windu fights the gundarks barehanded while Jar Jar sneaks around and decks the trainer right in the schnoz, with all the momentum he can conjure. both fall to the ground and start wrestling while the saber rolls away. Bainks manages to grab it with his prehensile tongue and spits it at Mace. With his weapon back, the Jedi easily slays one of the beasts and scares the other away. The beastmaster tries to run away but Jar Jar punches him to the ground a second time (without falling this time) and runs after queen Julia.

The leader and his escort have taken advantage of the distraction to get on some... hover-trains? And have high-tailed it with great speed. Windu interrogates the beastmaster. "The Shadow will come. The Great Mother. She will deal with you, Jedi. You will see!" Windu decides that's a waste of time and knocks him out. There's no train left, but the tracks are easy enough to follow. The two of them buy mounts from a local (Windu is not happy with not having the time to haggle properly) and they ride off. The cultist reach a fortified temple of theirs. The time for Julia's sacrifice is near at hand, it'll be when the sun and moons align, of course (judging by the sky, that's a long time to come, but whatever), the leader isn't worried about the Jedi, he's had a vision telling him Windu will be too late and once the Great Mother has combined her power with the sphere's "a new order will a rise". Hmm, on a scale of first to final, what number do you think this Order would have? Julia is tied up to some sort of lens-looking thing at the top of the temple.

In the desert, Jar Jar is trying to keep his anxiety at bay by making various yells. Mace tells him it would be more efficient to stay focused on the task at hand. Binks ask why the frongawl want Julia so bad, Windu says that as the spiritual leader of her people, the Living Force inside her must be very strong (couldn't you sense that when you met?), which is what the Great Mother wants. He tells Binks to focus on rescuing the queen while he handles the guards and "whatever evil" they'll find there. "And wessa good guys will triumph! Right, Masterin' Mace?" Pause, followed by a determined "Yes." I like this exchange. At the Temple, evil arrives in form of a ship (why did't they land there directly, in the first place?) out of which steps none other than... Mother Talzin. I am not surprised. The Frongwal leader kneels before her and hands her the sphere. Talzin's body is a bit... blurry and see-through in places. She's glad with the sphere, as she can feel the "pure spirit" resonating inside. She can also feel the Jedi coming. The leader says the stone guardians will stop him, but Talzin wants to begin the ritual immediately.

The Frongawl chant and dance rythmically while the leader places the sphere on a pedestal between Julia and an assortment of lenses aimed directly at the point where the sun and Moons will meet in the sky. Talzin tells Julia that she is not a "natural-Force wielder" like the Jedi or Sith. She gestures towards the sphere as she says she uses "dark magic" to achieve power and she is about to take Julia's strong connection to the Living Force. When the alignment is complete and the device rips out the spirit from Julia and gather it inside the sphere, allowing Talzin to become more powerful than any Sith or Jedi. Our two heroes make it to the Temple, but as they approach, Jar Jar accidentally (to be fair, I think they would have switched on regardless of him, some of them seems to come to life on thier own) activates a group of humongous, artistically crafted droids. The so-called stone guardians. MAce levitates Jar Jar and flings him to one the back of one of them while he fights off the first group. Trying to get the gungan, they start hitting each other. Binks eventually falls to the ground and grabs the gun-hand of one of them (Mace had severed it earlier) and uses it to finish off the last of the guardians, to Mace's surprise. "Jar Jar! Are you... okay? Look Meesa found a bang-booma gun! Nice work."

One of the cultists runs to the top of the temple to tell his leadership that the Jedi has defeated the stone guardians. Mace and Jar Jar are just behind him and Windu corrects him "the Jedi and the Gungan". Talzin sarcastically introduces herself as a simple witch and fires off her green-lightning. Windu attacks Talzin who summons a sword with a handle like a dragon's head and a blade wreathed in green flames. It's very cool, I have to say. Binks runs to the Queen as the device's final lense starts to move into place. "your power is no match for my magics! Magic is only an illusion." I dunno, Mace, those Dagoyan Masters sound actually dead to me. Four cultists attack Jar Jar who immediately delete them with his BFG. He unbinds the queen just as the alignment truly begins but the cult leader grabs him and they start boxing just in the place where Julia was. She jumps in and shoves Jar Jar out of the way just in time. The leader gets caught by the ray and his spirit is pulled into the sphere. Jar Jar's fall knocks the sphere down, shattering it. This causes a massive explosion.

Windu painfully gets up and spots Talzin despondently picking up a shard of the sphere. She then decomposes into mist while screaming in pain, the green cloud being dispersed by the wind. Jar Jar and the queen are okay too and embrace each other. Julia explains that her vision had shown her Talzin and that she knew Jar Jar would save her. He tells her to thank Windu which she does. Then she says thic ould be a new beginning for her people and the Jedi. Binks calls their mounts and they ride away.

So, Talzin is definitely dead this time, right? And she has been a ghost since Grievous's attack on Dathomir? But why did she need a spaceship then? Where did she even find it? Did someone have their ship stolen by the ghost of a space-witch? Because I doubt they've got insurance for that. Also, her magic is now explicitly different from the Force, and she's not a natural force-wielder. Does that mean that the other Nightsisters weren't either? Is Ventress different then? Also, also, what happened to Marulmal? You know, the evil god the Frongawl worshipped last episode? And how long did Talzin rule this cult? Was this always the plan for her to do this? You'd think this would have come up before.

She really is the embodiment of "does whatever the plot requires" isn't she? I hope she's truly done for good, but I'm not certain.

Jar Jar and Mace continues being a surprisingly good team. Jar Jar even got serious here, straigth-up fighting people and shooting some fools with murderous intent, no lucky accident, just a big gun.

Julia is just a damsel in distress in this episode, for the entirety of it. Last episode, she had her distrust of Mace to shake things up, but this time it's painfully clear she's just here to be Jar Jar's girlfriend that he has to rescue. I wonder if Julia makes it out of this show alive, I know there's a book somewhere making it clear they don't end up together since Jar Jar apparently lived out his days as a street performer on Naboo.

Next time: The Lost One. Anakin?

[hamishspence]

So, Talzin is definitely dead this time, right? And she has been a ghost since Grievous's attack on Dathomir? But why did she need a spaceship then? Where did she even find it? Did someone have their ship stolen by the ghost of a space-witch? Because I doubt they've got insurance for that. Also, her magic is now explicitly different from the Force, and she's not a natural force-wielder. Does that mean that the other Nightsisters weren't either? Is Ventress different then? Also, also, what happened to Marulmal? You know, the evil god the Frongawl worshipped last episode? And how long did Talzin rule this cult? Was this always the plan for her to do this? You'd think this would have come up before.

She really is the embodiment of "does whatever the plot requires" isn't she? I hope she's truly done for good, but I'm not certain.



Regarding Talzin:

In this comic, set after the Frangawl arc, Maul's goal is to bring Talzin back after her failure to de-ghost herself in the Frangawl arc.

He succeeds - but she is then slain by Grievous. It would appear that this finishes her off for good.

[Grim Portent]

So, Talzin is definitely dead this time, right? And she has been a ghost since Grievous's attack on Dathomir? But why did she need a spaceship then? Where did she even find it? Did someone have their ship stolen by the ghost of a space-witch? Because I doubt they've got insurance for that. Also, her magic is now explicitly different from the Force, and she's not a natural force-wielder. Does that mean that the other Nightsisters weren't either? Is Ventress different then? Also, also, what happened to Marulmal? You know, the evil god the Frongawl worshipped last episode? And how long did Talzin rule this cult? Was this always the plan for her to do this? You'd think this would have come up before.

She really is the embodiment of "does whatever the plot requires" isn't she? I hope she's truly done for good, but I'm not certain.

Jar Jar and Mace continues being a surprisingly good team. Jar Jar even got serious here, straigth-up fighting people and shooting some fools with murderous intent, no lucky accident, just a big gun.

Julia is just a damsel in distress in this episode, for the entirety of it. Last episode, she had her distrust of Mace to shake things up, but this time it's painfully clear she's just here to be Jar Jar's girlfriend that he has to rescue. I wonder if Julia makes it out of this show alive, I know there's a book somewhere making it clear they don't end up together since Jar Jar apparently lived out his days as a street performer on Naboo.

Presumably Talzin is more of a wraith or something, and because she isn't One with the Force the way the Force Ghosts are she isn't everywhere all the time and so needs to take a spaceship. Otherwise I think she only manifests on Dathomir and even there she seems to travel as a cloud of green fog.

As for the evil god, eh, probably something that died ages ago or was a representative of something linked to the Dark Side that Talzin co-opted for her own ends when it came time to work out ressurection plans. If this was a long established deception or otherwise is completely unknown.

I wouldn't say Magick (With a K because sci-fi witches :smalltongue: ) is different from the Force, it's got a lot in common with Sith Alchemy, which is a force practice, it's just completely incompatible with the Force as the Jedi understand it, and the Nightsister's have the same misunderstanding coming from the opposite direction. Elsewhere it's explained that the green liquid and fog on Dathomir is a physical manifestation of dark side corruption that can be manipulated, but it's never clear to me if all the Nightsister's can use it or only some that have an inherent... let's call if Magick Sensitivity. :smallamused: They certainly don't learn the ways of the Force as the Jedi or Sith understand it, but Sideous and Talzin were supposed to teach each other their respective abilities, only for Sideous to abduct Maul and run away after learning some Magick, so there must be some sort of cross-compatability.

And yeah, Talzin just exists to do whatever provided it's mysterious and spooky. There was meant to be another arc with her and Maul before, but it got cut and done as a comic. I don't know if it makes things any better as I haven't read it, but Talzin's whole force spirit thing is kind of weird and confusing.

The main thing about these episodes is just Jar-Jar being actually competent, in his own way. I don't know if the story where he winds up living as an impoverished and humiliated street performer is still canon, but honestly I hope it isn't. He's a buffoon, but that's not really a reason for him to have a tragic ending like that.

[Sapphire Guard]

It's in Aftermath, so canon. I think the author may have intended that in a spiteful way, but you could read it as him finding peace. The Senate applauded Palpatine's rise, nothing was his fault, he was just made a scapegoat.

[Errorname]

The Nightsisters are one of those things were you can tell it's George doing his take on an Expanded Universe thing he didn't originate, same with the Mandalorians, but unlike the Mandalore stuff which isn't always great but pays off extremely well the Talzin stuff sort of gets forgotten for the sake of other plotlines and fizzles out.

[Mechalich]

Presumably Talzin is more of a wraith or something, and because she isn't One with the Force the way the Force Ghosts are she isn't everywhere all the time and so needs to take a spaceship. Otherwise I think she only manifests on Dathomir and even there she seems to travel as a cloud of green fog.


In EU materials, dark side spirits, whether Sith or otherwise, are generally linked to specific locations. This makes sense, broadly, because the Force seems to have different concentration or density at specific points, such as the dark side cave on Dagobah where certain things become possible that are not otherwise. And that's reasonable, since energy fields like Earth's magnetic field can and do vary substantially in strength geographically. As such it is likely that Talzin is anchored to something on Dathomir and stuffs that onto the ship to be transported in this case.

[Grim Portent]

In EU materials, dark side spirits, whether Sith or otherwise, are generally linked to specific locations. This makes sense, broadly, because the Force seems to have different concentration or density at specific points, such as the dark side cave on Dagobah where certain things become possible that are not otherwise. And that's reasonable, since energy fields like Earth's magnetic field can and do vary substantially in strength geographically. As such it is likely that Talzin is anchored to something on Dathomir and stuffs that onto the ship to be transported in this case.

I think in Talzin's case she's manifesting through the green fog that's everywhere on Dathomir. The planet is steeped in darkness, and that mist is the manifestation of that darkness. Presumably the ship carried whatever patch of mist Talzin was in off the planet.

IIRC some more Nightsister spirits show up in Rebels, but they seem to be tied to an altar of sorts, making them more like EU Sith ghosts. Talzin seems to have no obvious physical connections beyond the mist itself.

It might be something to do with Talzin having discorporeated herself, rather than being killed and hanging around afterwards. She turned into mist while still alive, so perhaps it was more of a difficult to reverse transformation in her case than one of a dead spirit clinging on.

[McNum]

Season 6, Episode 9: The Disappeared, Part II

Mace and Jar Jar leave Bardotta looking for the missing queen. Jar Jar describes what the Frongawl were doing. MAce concludes that they are harvesting the living Force but cannot use it like a Jedi or a Sith would. He also senses a "darker presence" at work. However, the good news is that such a gathering of Living Force is something that Mace can sense form very far away, which should lead them to the cultists. Yeah, everybody stops calling the Frongawl a clan in this one, they're just cultists now, then again, they have a lot of non-Bardottan members in this one too. Windu even agrees with Jar Jar that they make a "bombad team".

Menawhile on some desert moon, the Frongawl land in a city and are greeted by more of their numbers, these ones armed with blasters rather than pointy sticks. The local leader tells his master that he had another vision of the "Great Mother" warning him that the Jedi know about the sphere and is on their trail. Hmm... green misty magic, a "Great Mother" I wonder who that could be. the Frongawl decide to hurry, once the queen is sacrificed and the Force transferred to the Great Mother, she can deal with the Jedi herself.

As our duo lands Jar Jar is itching to run into the city, but Mace tells him to calm down, rushing in blindly is just going to waste time. He focuses and gets a good sense of where the sphere and the queen are. Now, it's time to rush in. They reach a marketsquare Mace saw through the Force and the Jedi jumps onto the rooftops to try to find their quarry. Julia, who is being carried on a cultist's shoulder not even ten meters from where Jar Jar is calls to him. Binks runs after her and Windu after him. The Gungan runs into a gaggle of cultists and flees in the opposite direction in a panic. The pursuing minions run into Windu who starts fighting them. Jar Jar keeps running until he stumbles on two cultists in full regalia having a chat. I think these guy just straight up run this town. Jar Jar correctly guesses that the cultists with the queen are going to pass through there. But when they do he makes his presence known and the leader just sics some goons on him and keep going. Windu, who is just done non-lethally knocking out his opponents catches up to them (I think they're all just going in circle at this point) and decides to keep farming EXP while he tells Jar Jar to keep following the queen.

Next obstacle is a cultist with a turret-mounted machine-gun. All his fellows where using like medieval weapons, respect to this guy for remembering this is a sci-fi setting. He laughs maniacally and starts destroying the nearby building in trying to kill the Representative. Windu overhears and starts parkouring his way to there. Binks decides to be brave and runs straight into the killzone... just as Mace lands on the cultist, taking him out of action. They keep the chase on. Spotting them, the leader oreders one of his underlings, who doesn't wear a mask but has the cult's symbol tatooed on his forehead, to stop them. The dude whistles to summon... two domesticated gundarks. This gives Windu pause, which makes Jar Jar crash into him, allowing the beastmaster to use his whip to get hold of the Jedi's lightsaber. Windu fights the gundarks barehanded while Jar Jar sneaks around and decks the trainer right in the schnoz, with all the momentum he can conjure. both fall to the ground and start wrestling while the saber rolls away. Bainks manages to grab it with his prehensile tongue and spits it at Mace. With his weapon back, the Jedi easily slays one of the beasts and scares the other away. The beastmaster tries to run away but Jar Jar punches him to the ground a second time (without falling this time) and runs after queen Julia.

The leader and his escort have taken advantage of the distraction to get on some... hover-trains? And have high-tailed it with great speed. Windu interrogates the beastmaster. "The Shadow will come. The Great Mother. She will deal with you, Jedi. You will see!" Windu decides that's a waste of time and knocks him out. There's no train left, but the tracks are easy enough to follow. The two of them buy mounts from a local (Windu is not happy with not having the time to haggle properly) and they ride off. The cultist reach a fortified temple of theirs. The time for Julia's sacrifice is near at hand, it'll be when the sun and moons align, of course (judging by the sky, that's a long time to come, but whatever), the leader isn't worried about the Jedi, he's had a vision telling him Windu will be too late and once the Great Mother has combined her power with the sphere's "a new order will a rise". Hmm, on a scale of first to final, what number do you think this Order would have? Julia is tied up to some sort of lens-looking thing at the top of the temple.

In the desert, Jar Jar is trying to keep his anxiety at bay by making various yells. Mace tells him it would be more efficient to stay focused on the task at hand. Binks ask why the frongawl want Julia so bad, Windu says that as the spiritual leader of her people, the Living Force inside her must be very strong (couldn't you sense that when you met?), which is what the Great Mother wants. He tells Binks to focus on rescuing the queen while he handles the guards and "whatever evil" they'll find there. "And wessa good guys will triumph! Right, Masterin' Mace?" Pause, followed by a determined "Yes." I like this exchange. At the Temple, evil arrives in form of a ship (why did't they land there directly, in the first place?) out of which steps none other than... Mother Talzin. I am not surprised. The Frongwal leader kneels before her and hands her the sphere. Talzin's body is a bit... blurry and see-through in places. She's glad with the sphere, as she can feel the "pure spirit" resonating inside. She can also feel the Jedi coming. The leader says the stone guardians will stop him, but Talzin wants to begin the ritual immediately.

The Frongawl chant and dance rythmically while the leader places the sphere on a pedestal between Julia and an assortment of lenses aimed directly at the point where the sun and Moons will meet in the sky. Talzin tells Julia that she is not a "natural-Force wielder" like the Jedi or Sith. She gestures towards the sphere as she says she uses "dark magic" to achieve power and she is about to take Julia's strong connection to the Living Force. When the alignment is complete and the device rips out the spirit from Julia and gather it inside the sphere, allowing Talzin to become more powerful than any Sith or Jedi. Our two heroes make it to the Temple, but as they approach, Jar Jar accidentally (to be fair, I think they would have switched on regardless of him, some of them seems to come to life on thier own) activates a group of humongous, artistically crafted droids. The so-called stone guardians. MAce levitates Jar Jar and flings him to one the back of one of them while he fights off the first group. Trying to get the gungan, they start hitting each other. Binks eventually falls to the ground and grabs the gun-hand of one of them (Mace had severed it earlier) and uses it to finish off the last of the guardians, to Mace's surprise. "Jar Jar! Are you... okay? Look Meesa found a bang-booma gun! Nice work."

One of the cultists runs to the top of the temple to tell his leadership that the Jedi has defeated the stone guardians. Mace and Jar Jar are just behind him and Windu corrects him "the Jedi and the Gungan". Talzin sarcastically introduces herself as a simple witch and fires off her green-lightning. Windu attacks Talzin who summons a sword with a handle like a dragon's head and a blade wreathed in green flames. It's very cool, I have to say. Binks runs to the Queen as the device's final lense starts to move into place. "your power is no match for my magics! Magic is only an illusion." I dunno, Mace, those Dagoyan Masters sound actually dead to me. Four cultists attack Jar Jar who immediately delete them with his BFG. He unbinds the queen just as the alignment truly begins but the cult leader grabs him and they start boxing just in the place where Julia was. She jumps in and shoves Jar Jar out of the way just in time. The leader gets caught by the ray and his spirit is pulled into the sphere. Jar Jar's fall knocks the sphere down, shattering it. This causes a massive explosion.

Windu painfully gets up and spots Talzin despondently picking up a shard of the sphere. She then decomposes into mist while screaming in pain, the green cloud being dispersed by the wind. Jar Jar and the queen are okay too and embrace each other. Julia explains that her vision had shown her Talzin and that she knew Jar Jar would save her. He tells her to thank Windu which she does. Then she says thic ould be a new beginning for her people and the Jedi. Binks calls their mounts and they ride away.

So, Talzin is definitely dead this time, right? And she has been a ghost since Grievous's attack on Dathomir? But why did she need a spaceship then? Where did she even find it? Did someone have their ship stolen by the ghost of a space-witch? Because I doubt they've got insurance for that. Also, her magic is now explicitly different from the Force, and she's not a natural force-wielder. Does that mean that the other Nightsisters weren't either? Is Ventress different then? Also, also, what happened to Marulmal? You know, the evil god the Frongawl worshipped last episode? And how long did Talzin rule this cult? Was this always the plan for her to do this? You'd think this would have come up before.

She really is the embodiment of "does whatever the plot requires" isn't she? I hope she's truly done for good, but I'm not certain.

Jar Jar and Mace continues being a surprisingly good team. Jar Jar even got serious here, straigth-up fighting people and shooting some fools with murderous intent, no lucky accident, just a big gun.

Julia is just a damsel in distress in this episode, for the entirety of it. Last episode, she had her distrust of Mace to shake things up, but this time it's painfully clear she's just here to be Jar Jar's girlfriend that he has to rescue. I wonder if Julia makes it out of this show alive, I know there's a book somewhere making it clear they don't end up together since Jar Jar apparently lived out his days as a street performer on Naboo.

Next time: The Lost One. Anakin?
I think it's funny that of all things they did in the extra seasons of the show, they put their heads together and made a good Jar Jar episode. Well, two. And the trick was to give him a straight man to play off and to focus the drama of the episode on Jar Jar as surprisingly, he can carry that. He's annoying as a hanger-on, but as the protagonist with Mace to play off? He just works.

[Errorname]

I think it's funny that of all things they did in the extra seasons of the show, they put their heads together and made a good Jar Jar episode. Well, two. And the trick was to give him a straight man to play off and to focus the drama of the episode on Jar Jar as surprisingly, he can carry that. He's annoying as a hanger-on, but as the protagonist with Mace to play off? He just works.

Turns out the trick was to make him semi-competent.

[Fyraltari]

Regarding Talzin:

In this comic, set after the Frangawl arc, Maul's goal is to bring Talzin back after her failure to de-ghost herself in the Frangawl arc.

He succeeds - but she is then slain by Grievous. It would appear that this finishes her off for good.
Good.

As for the evil god, eh, probably something that died ages ago or was a representative of something linked to the Dark Side that Talzin co-opted for her own ends when it came time to work out ressurection plans. If this was a long established deception or otherwise is completely unknown.
They were sacrificing to him, last episode.


I wouldn't say Magick (With a K because sci-fi witches :smalltongue: ) is different from the Force, it's got a lot in common with Sith Alchemy, which is a force practice, it's just completely incompatible with the Force as the Jedi understand it, and the Nightsister's have the same misunderstanding coming from the opposite direction. Elsewhere it's explained that the green liquid and fog on Dathomir is a physical manifestation of dark side corruption that can be manipulated, but it's never clear to me if all the Nightsister's can use it or only some that have an inherent... let's call if Magick Sensitivity. :smallamused: They certainly don't learn the ways of the Force as the Jedi or Sith understand it, but Sideous and Talzin were supposed to teach each other their respective abilities, only for Sideous to abduct Maul and run away after learning some Magick, so there must be some sort of cross-compatability.
But Talzin straight-up says she can't wield the Force without "stealing" it.


And yeah, Talzin just exists to do whatever provided it's mysterious and spooky. There was meant to be another arc with her and Maul before, but it got cut and done as a comic. I don't know if it makes things any better as I haven't read it, but Talzin's whole force spirit thing is kind of weird and confusing.
It's not just her powers. Her objectives are different in every arc she appears in. What does she actually want? Why does she do those things?


The main thing about these episodes is just Jar-Jar being actually competent, in his own way. I don't know if the story where he winds up living as an impoverished and humiliated street performer is still canon, but honestly I hope it isn't. He's a buffoon, but that's not really a reason for him to have a tragic ending like that.
Is it really a tragic ending? I don't think politics were ever a good fit for him. Making children laugh seems like a much happier life.

I think it's funny that of all things they did in the extra seasons of the show, they put their heads together and made a good Jar Jar episode. Well, two. And the trick was to give him a straight man to play off and to focus the drama of the episode on Jar Jar as surprisingly, he can carry that. He's annoying as a hanger-on, but as the protagonist with Mace to play off? He just works.

He mostly works.

[Grim Portent]

They were sacrificing to him, last episode.

And? Them still practicing in the name of a god from their past doesn't prevent Talzin from having just co-opted that worship for her own ends. All she has to do is show them some magic, project herself like she did with Dooku or whatever similar spooky nonsense to frame herself as the god's emissary, prophet, an angel, the physical incarnation of god or whatever. For all we know she showed up and claimed she was their god's mum. The cult keeps it's old aesthetics but now it's a shell puppeted by some lady from Dathomir.

It's definitely sloppy writing not to have a line about 'the new prophet' or 'the dread god's chosen' or something to hint at her arrival though.


But Talzin straight-up says she can't wield the Force without "stealing" it.

As I said, the Nighsister's believe their Magick and the Force are different, but that belief doesn't make it true. Other sources call Magick things like Force Sorcery or Force Magic, which implies it's basically a sister practice to Sith Alchemy which is also a force technique.

I don't know if Sith Alchemists have to be Force Sensitives, if not then maybe Magick can also be done without being able to use the Force in a conventional manner, but I would default to assuming it requires you to be able to wield the Force. Talzin may just not be able to use what she would think of as the Force, because she's blinkered by her existing knowledge of the Nightsister's techniques and her own philosophy. There's a mental aspect to the Force that she might just not be able to get around because of the worldview taught by her people, because her preconceptions are already shaped by what she knows.


It's not just her powers. Her objectives are different in every arc she appears in. What does she actually want? Why does she do those things?

Well she seems to have three basic desires. Kill Dooku/Sidious because revenge, genuine care for Maul as her biological son, and to live forever or as near as she can get. They change a bit over time, because she was first portrayed before Maul was written back in, so initially her desire is just to help Ventress get revenge on Dooku, then after Maul was brought back it gets extended to revenge on Sidious for stealing Maul from her and a desire to get her son back and help him become as powerful as possible.

Maul always seems to come first after his reappearance, with her resurrection coming a close second. Revenge I think is entirely shunted off to comics after the Ventress/Savage vs Dooku scheme.

[Fyraltari]

Season 6, Episode 10: The Lost One

The Jedi have received a distress signal coming from the ship of Jedi Master who disappeared long ago and Plo Koon is sent to investigate. After stumbling through a sandstorm, he and his clone escort end up finding the wreckage of the ship in question as well as a working lightsaber. More specifically, the lightsaber of Master Sifo-Dyas, the one who allegedly commissioned the Clone Army before dying around the events of TPM. Upon Plo's report to the Council, Kenobi helpfully reminds everyone of that. Windu then add that Sifo-Dyas was dismissed from the Council for being "too extreme". In particular, he claimed he had foreseen a great conflict and that the Republic would need an army. Obi-Wan remarks this isn't the first time the Order has been wrong "recently". Still Yoda, thinks they should investigate Sifo-Dyas' death and the creation of the clone army, now that they have a concrete lead.

Head Librarian Jocasta Nu explains to the Council that according to their records, Sifo-Dyas was killed in a skirmish on Felucia where he had been sent to try and find a diplomatic resolution to a local conflict. When Plo asks what happened to his body, Nu says that further information is restricted on the authority of the Supreme Chancellor's office. Something the Council wasen't aware of, apparently. Yoda dispatches Obi-Wan and Anakin to Felucia while he goes to ask Palpatine what that's all about. When asked Palpatine says that "ten years ago" he was still just a Senator (So, is this episode set in the first year of the Clone war?), so Yoda should go ask his predecessor, Valorum. Yoda agrees, despite the fact that Palpatine, as the current Chancellor should have the authority to unlock the files. As he leaves, he gets a call from Obi-Wan. The Felucians cremated Sifo-Dyas after he died, but they say he was accompanied by a second Jedi, although Kenobi couldn't get a name out of them. That's all he has, and he's not 100% sure he understood correctly, because the natives' dialect is hard to understand. If only he knew some kind of translator. Like a droid who knew, let's says, half a million forms of communications?

Valourm's house is protected by Senate Guards (the ones in blue), but the former Chancellor agrees to meet with his friend Yoda without fuss. When asked about Sifo-Dyas he remembers tasking him with dealing with the Pyke spice syndicate. At the time the Pykes were moving aggressively to take control of the production of raw spice, and therefore the actual drug, which threatened to escalate into an all-out gang war in Coruscant's underbelly. This was done without the knowledge of the Jedi Council because the Senate committee in charge didn't want people to know the administration was negotiating with criminals. Didn't want the opposition to have a field day with that gem. However, the negotiations were postponed after the Republic's delegates arrived on Oba Dia, the Pykes' homeworld because of the Felucia situation. Valorum doesn't know of any Jedi accompanying Sifo-Dyas, though. The other delegate was his personal aide, a man called Silmon. It is Valorum's understanding that both men died on Felucia.

Meanwhile on Serenno, Darth Tyrannus receives a call from his Master. Sidious is worried about the Jedi looking into Sifo-Dyas's death and wants Tyrannus to retrace his steps and take care of any loose ends the Jedi might find. He then says this isn't the first time Tyrannus has proven himself to be clumsy and Force-chokes him from half a galaxy away to remind him of the price of failure before hanging up. at the Temple, Obi-Wan and Anakin report that the Felucian don't know anything about any Silmon, but Anakin notices on the photo Yoda provided that Silmon is wearing a necklace bearing Valorum's symbol on it. Obi-Wan makes a tally: they've a got a dead Jedi with no body, a mystery second Jedi and a missing bureaucrat. Plo Koon says the crashed shuttle he found was on a moon of Oba Dia. And he didn't think to ask the locals anything apparently. Yoda dispatches Obi-Wan and Anakin to investigate there.

The two of them land at the leader of the Syndicate's fortress-palace-spaceport thing at the summitof a mountain, and are granted audience. It's your typical Jabba's palace clone with a collection of aliens from the less reputable species hanging around as well as a few Twi'lek and Togruta escorts. The lead Pyke is sitting on his throne (with armrests wide enough for a woman to comfortably lounge on each), smoking spice. People made a bit of fuss when the Pykes jumped into live-action and, while I can understand downsizing their massive heads, I've got to say I'm surprised they removed their noses? Usually it's the other way around. The guys says it's been years since a Jedi paid him a visit, but he does remember Sifo-Dyas. He denies any knowledge of the crashed shuttle and offers them a drink, which Obi-Wan accepts. He doesn't seem to notice the Jedi don't actually drink while he spills half his glass on his face. Dude's pretty high. Kenobi recognizes his necklacen though: it has Valorum's symbol on it. The guy dodges the question, prompting Anakin to Force-rip the necklace to him. The druglord doesn't escalate the situation instead asking whether they are looking for a Jedi or an advisor. Anakin gets angry and the Pyke admit the man they are looking for is there.

Their host take them deep inside the fortress as he explains what happened. In order to gain an advantage over the other syndicates, the Pykes have cultivated many alliances over the years. In particular one man named Tyranus paid them handsomely to shoot down Sifo-Dyas's shuttle. Obi-Wan remembers Tyranus as the name of the man who hired Jango Fett as a genetic donor. However the Pykes had zero trust in someone willing to orchestrate the murder of a Jedi and decided to get some insurance. So, when they retrieved the corpse as evidence of the kill and found a survivor, Silmon, they didn't tell Tyranus about this witness, instead they kept him locked up for this very day. The bargain is simple: they give the Jedi Silmon and the Jedi forget about them murdering one of their own. That's a rather one-sided deal isn't it? There's absolutely no guarantee that Silmon knows anything about Tyranus or why Sifo-Dyas was murdered. Still our heroes implictly take the deal and walk into the cell. It's a big room with some kind of spherical device burind in the floor and weird panel things in the walls. Silmon is there, driven half-mad by the isolation. He's a bit suspicious at the idea that anyone would come for him after all this time, but is easily swayed by the gift of a "delicious" (his words) military supply bar. Not for him mind, but for the grubs he's come to regard as his children.

Meanwhile, Darth Tyranus lands on the fortress and murders two guards who tell him he's no longer welcome there. In the cell, Silmon doesn't want to leave and when asked about Sifo-Dyas he starts rambling about them being betrayed and the Pykes not being trustworthy, but that they weren't the reason Sifo-Dyas died, instead it was someone powerful, someone who wanted to "be" Sifo-Dyas . But just as he's about to say why, Tyranus walks in and Force-chokes him to death. Skywalker and Kenobi recognize Dooku who admits he came himself because "sometimes, things are just that important." The three of them fight their way to some sort of big balcony and, despite other performances in the show, Dooku is holding his ground against the two of them. Then the Pyke leader and about twenty goons show up. They threaten Dooku, calling him "Tyranus", which is a revelation to Obi-Wan. Dooku tells him he already told him everything he needed to know on Geonosis and that he should have joined him at the time. He also say that Sifo-Dyas, having seen the future, understood, which is why he helped him. Kenobi calls him a liar. the pykes open fire, completely missing the old man five meter away and running towards them. He Force-pushes everyone to the ground, jumps over the Pykes and take the time to kill the leader before jumping off the edge when reinforcements arrive. Of course, he lands on some sort of cargo ship and remotely summon his own ship to him. Obi-Wan Force-pushes Anakin all the way to the cargo so he can fail at stopping Dooku some more. Dooku scuttles the ship, jumps down to his own spaceship and escapes.

Back at the Temple, Yoda concludes that it was Dooku who created the clone army for them. Windu says that if this were to become public knowledge confidence in the clones, the Jedi and the Republic would plummet, causing mass chaos. Would it, though? They decide to keep this a secret, even from the Chancellor (Anakin disapproves but says nothing). Yoda says the clone have proven many times to be valiant men and have saved Jedi lives, so they must believe in them and win the war swiftly before the enemy's plan reach completion. Windu isn't sure this is the right path, but Yoda thinks it's the only one and that for now they must play the Dark Lord of the Sith's game.

This episode was pretty good, even if it was mostly the characters playing catch-up to things the audience already know. The designs of Oba Dia and of the Pykes are pretty neat.

I'm unclear when this is supposed to take place though. The creation of the clone army was "ten years ago" which suggests that this is early in the war, something supported by Dooku managing to take on both Obi-Wan and Anakin when he has had increasingly more troubles fighting Anakin alone over the last seasons. But, Dooku says his and Obi-Wan's meeting on Geonosis was "all those years ago" (which is a very odd way of talking about something that can't have been more than two and a half years prior) and the Jedi and the clones seem to already have a substantive history together. So it's late in the war?

Anyway, the Jedi know that the Sith ordered the creation of the clone army and they know (or will soon know) about the chip inserted into each clone that is related to one of them murdering a Jedi, the Kaminoan acted very suspicious about and one clone claimed was part of a huge conspiracy. And they still can't put two and two together!? How dumb can they be?

Also, Silmon implies that Dooku murdered Sifo-Dyas so he could impersonate him (which I think was the general fan consensus, the "Sifo-Dyas" the Kaminoan dealt with was Dooku in disguise) but this episode establishes that Sifo-Dyas wanted to create an army and the episodes on Kamino show that Dooku interacts with the Kaminoans as "Tyranus". So what's going on?

Next up: Voices

[Grim Portent]

Anyway, the Jedi know that the Sith ordered the creation of the clone army and they know (or will soon know) about the chip inserted into each clone that is related to one of them murdering a Jedi, the Kaminoan acted very suspicious about and one clone claimed was part of a huge conspiracy. And they still can't put two and two together!? How dumb can they be?

Also, Silmon implies that Dooku murdered Sifo-Dyas so he could impersonate him (which I think was the general fan consensus, the "Sifo-Dyas" the Kaminoan dealt with was Dooku in disguise) but this episode establishes that Sifo-Dyas wanted to create an army and the episodes on Kamino show that Dooku interacts with the Kaminoans as "Tyranus". So what's going on?

1: Very dumb. Or rather, very trusting for some reason. They seem to trust the clones more or less entirely, and while they don't trust the Kaminoans they also don't have any concrete evidence for them doing anything legally wrong, just morally wrong. The Kaminoans claim the chips are a safety precaution to control the clone's aggression, the one example of a clone with a broken one killed a Jedi and the one example of one without one seemngly went crazy and tried to kill the Chancellor. In itself that's not a lot to go on, but once they find out about Dooku's involvement it should trigger a massive and invasive investigation into Kamino's designs, production methods and all the things the chips do.

Then again Kamino might refuse to make more clones in protest, which would be a bad look during a war if it did turn out to be nothing.


Established canon to my understanding is that Dooku posed as an associate or underling of Sifo-Dyas and took over the Kaminoan's project as their point of contact with the Jedi. In theory any Jedi who went to Kamino and asked about it probably could have, but IIRC Dooku was the only Jedi Dyas told about it in the first place because of some similarities between their stances at the time.

[Sapphire Guard]

It's a good episode in isolation, but the implications destroy the wider story. TCW always serves its immediate narrative needs no matter what it destroys in the process. This and the chip episode wreck everything.

And they're not done yet!