Making the most of Vow of Poverty

[Solomon Draak]

Could you suggest me some sheningans for a character who use no wealth or equipment?

I would start with a Human, Vow of Poverty at level 1 and Holy Fist prestige class as soon as possible ( Defenders of the Faith original version, which is way better IMO than the Complete Divine version ).

[pabelfly]

Could you suggest me some sheningans for a character who use no wealth or equipment?

I would start with a Human, Vow of Poverty at level 1 and Holy Fist prestige class as soon as possible ( Defenders of the Faith original version, which is way better IMO than the Complete Divine version ).

Here's a build I came up with in another VOP discussion thread, which I've slightly improved upon.

Human
Scout 4/Ranger 14/Stalker of Kharash 2

Weapon: Light Crossbow

Ranger Variant - Champion of the Wild

Ranger 1: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, (B) Track, (B) Nymph’s Kiss. Favored Enemy: Arcane.
Scout 1: (B) Nemesis (Arcane). Skirmish (1d6).
Scout 2: Alertness.
Scout 3: (B) Favored of the Companions. Skirmish (1d6 + 1AC)
Scout 4: (B) Swift Hunter. Favored Enemy (Construct). Skirmish (2d6 + 1AC)
Stalker of Kharash 1: Rapid Reload, (B) Nemesis (Construct)
Stalker of Kharash 2: Favored Enemy: Evil.
Ranger 2: (B) Rapid Shot, (B) Nemesis (Evil).
Ranger 3: Improved Skirmish, (B) Endurance. Skirmish (4d6 + 2AC).
Ranger 4: (B) Exalted Companion, (B) Improved Favored Enemy.
Ranger 5: Skirmish (5d6 + 2AC)
Ranger 6: Natural Bond, (B) Manyshot, (B) Nemesis (Ooze). Favored Enemy (Ooze).
Ranger 7: Skirmish (5d6 + 3AC)
Ranger 8: (B) Point Blank Shot, (B) Sanctify Martial Strike
Ranger 9: Feat: Extra Favored Enemy (Plant). Skirmish (6d6 + 3AC)
Ranger 10: Nemesis (Plant).
Ranger 11: (B) Improved Precise Shot, Favored Enemy (Elementals). Skirmish (6d6 + 4AC)
Ranger 12: Extra Favored Enemy: (Magical Beast), (B) Improved Rapid Shot, (B) Nemesis (Elementals).
Ranger 13: Skirmish (7d6 + 4AC)
Ranger 14: (B) Nemesis (Magical Beast), Shot on the Run

Favored Enemy List: Arcane, any Evil enemy, Oozes, Constructs, Plants, Elementals, Magical Beasts. Arcane should include Dragons, since Dragons automatically have Arcane casting above a certain level, and Evil should include Undead, since all Undead are Evil.

Damage (presuming skirmish):
7d6 Skirmish
+ 5 (VOP Exalted Strike)
+ 1/2/3/4 Favored Enemy bonus (if relevant)
+ 3 (Improved Favored Enemy, if relevant)
+ 1 (Sanctify Martial Strike, against all evil enemies)
+ 1d6 (Nemesis Evil, against all evil enemies).
+ 1d6 (Nemesis (X), if evil enemy is also a Favored Enemy)

This applies per hit.

Notes:
- We actually need all of the Exalted feat bonuses - Nymph's Kiss, Favored of the Companions, Sanctify Martial Strike, and a bunch of Nemesis feats.
- There's probably a Wildshape version of this one, using Exalted Wildshape to gain access to an animal form normally forbidden to Wildshape rangers. I'd add a one-level dip of Barbarian for that sort of build though.
- Nemesis has two benefits - the first, seeing all enemies, regardless of if they hide, use invisibility, etc. This also applies to enemies that aren't Evil. The second, a second extra 1d6 damage against all Evil enemies, and an extra 1d6 damage against Evil favored enemies.
- The feat “Extra Favored Enemy” advances under 3.0 rules (a DM might reinterpret this under 3.5 rules), but in any case, the main point of this is to hit more creatures otherwise immune to skirmish damage and also add Nemesis bonus damage to evil versions of enemies we'd normally have trouble with.
- Extra animal companion options, and animal companion is boosted with Exalted Animal Companion.

[Kalkra]

If Dragon Mag material is allowed, you might want to look into Sculpt Self, which can give you the benefits of magic items without breaking your Vow. Also you might want to look into Druid, which synergizes well with VoP with wild shape, although you'd push back your entry into Sacred Fist a bit compared to Ranger.

[AvatarVecna]

Could you suggest me some sheningans for a character who use no wealth or equipment?

I would start with a Human, Vow of Poverty at level 1 and Holy Fist prestige class as soon as possible ( Defenders of the Faith original version, which is way better IMO than the Complete Divine version ).

I recall an Iron Chef build that did some kind of shadow crafting - not shadowcraft mage, but like making items out of shadow stuff? And they laid out how technically you should be able to make basically anything, including magic items I think, without it counting as magic items for the purposes of VoP.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A ghost with malevolence or a Good [evil] fiend of possession, either with a level in thrallherd. Pull in a bunch of monsters that are strong without equipment and use them as your bodies while you manifest powers on the side (which almost never require material components, spellbooks, foci, etc).

Make sure you have a high level convert-spell-to-power erudite with access to psychic chirurgery to give you access to more powers without paying him.

And your goons can use magic items on your behalf.

And you never have to lose your Vow because you opened a door if you can just float right through it incorporeally.

[ToranIronfinder]

Could you suggest me some sheningans for a character who use no wealth or equipment?

I would start with a Human, Vow of Poverty at level 1 and Holy Fist prestige class as soon as possible ( Defenders of the Faith original version, which is way better IMO than the Complete Divine version ).

Psion might do the trick, no spellbook, no components, full manifesting. . .

[Vizzerdrix]

Psion might do the trick, no spellbook, no components, full manifesting. . .

Ardent makes a good entry into FoP due to the way they learn powers.

[Particle_Man]

Incarnate can get you soulmelds without breaking your vow - you can even bind them since you are not using your magic item/chakra slots for magic items.

Another trick I heard is not to have VoP yourself, but to have your animal companion take it if you are druid. In case you thought that druids are too underpowered or something. :smallbiggrin:

[tyckspoon]

Generally you want to find things that already were built/balanced assuming you were not going to be wearing items on them, so that the bonuses from Vow of Poverty then become bonuses in addition to your stats instead of simply replacing the basic AC, save bonus, and stat boost items you would normally be assumed to get. That comes in two broad flavors: Shapeshifting, where you were going to be wholesale replacing your stats with the (presumably much bigger ones) of some variety of beast or monster body anyways, and Incarnum, where the more powerful effects were already supposed to be replacing magic items.
You can also do well with minion masters such as summoning or pet builds, but those don't have any particular synergy with Vows - they're just concepts where the power of the build is external to the character, so it doesn't matter that much if the character kind of sucks as long as his summon or Animal Companion or Special Mount is still keeping pace. (.. unless you can get your DM to play along with your Blink Dog or Unicorn or whatever -also- being able to take Vow of Poverty, in which case it actually does get kinda silly when you stack Vow benefits on top of Animal Companion/Mount benefits.) Similarly any full caster can get along ok, but that's because spellcasting is so much better than everything else that a smart caster can take huge voluntary restrictions and still come out in the top half of performance.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood has the Create Device feat, which allows you to craft non-magical gothic steampunk versions of magic items (similar to the aesthetic of Frankenstein).

You're allowed to have and use a bunch of nonmagical items from a very limited list -- so sacrifice a bunch of money to make what items you can use into Devices that are as overpowered as you can make them.

Also, you're allowed to wield a sling and ammo; the gnome calculus (A&EG) is a sling, and it uses alchemical items as ammo. That...might be allowed? If you squint a bit?

[Gruftzwerg]

Could you suggest me some sheningans for a character who use no wealth or equipment?

I would start with a Human, Vow of Poverty at level 1 and Holy Fist prestige class as soon as possible ( Defenders of the Faith original version, which is way better IMO than the Complete Divine version ).

I assume you mean Sacred Fist and not Holy Fist.

Let me tell you that imho it is a bad idea to take VoP on a cleric. While VoP has an exception for a spellcomponent pouch, you may still not use a (divine) focus that is needed for many divine spells. That would limit the spells you can cast by a good margin. Unless you are 100% sure that the spells you want to cast don't need a focus, I would suggest some other VoP builds.

1)
How about a VoP Ubermount build? Here you use an animal companion or the like for the VoP feat. Since those of the time don't get much or any gear at all, they nice targets for VoP. Have a look at my Warlock Ubermount build (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?647962). It has a VoP build path for the mount.


2)
If you wanna combine VoP with monk and magic, I would suggest to go for a Clawlock ubercharger build.

Monk 2 / Warlock 3 / Drunken Master 2 / Enlightened Fist 10 / Fist of the Forest 3 or something similar.

You need the Eldritch Claws feat (Dragon Magazine) and the Beast Strike feat to boost your unarmed strike damage to " 2x regular unarmed strike damage + Eldritch Blast damage".
Warlock also provides you with some nice at will SLA. There is enough interesting stuff for a gish build. Like flying all day long or using Nightmares Made Real to get effectively HIPS in it. And your Eldritch Blast is basically your Kamehameha.^^

3) a Wild Shaped focused Druid and/or Master of Many Forms could also be a good option for VoP. Maybe even take a monk dip.

[pabelfly]

I assume you mean Sacred Fist and not Holy Fist.

Let me tell you that imho it is a bad idea to take VoP on a cleric. While VoP has an exception for a spellcomponent pouch, you may still not use a (divine) focus that is needed for many divine spells. That would limit the spells you can cast by a good margin. Unless you are 100% sure that the spells you want to cast don't need a focus, I would suggest some other VoP builds.

If your DM doesn't include a Divine Focus in your gear for a VoP build you can always pick up the Worldly Focus feat. But then you've already chewed up an extra feat just to get casting, so it's probably easier to put it on another casting class instead.

[Daisy]

VoP states "You may carry and use a spell component pouch." Spell component pouches contain foci, and so at my table I would rule a Divine Focus meets this criteria and can be carried (a simple wooden one, not a fancy one). Given the thematic flavour of VoP I would think that denying clerics from benefiting from it seems counter-intuitive. Historically it was primarily holy folk (monks, nuns, etc.) who took vows of poverty anyway

[Gruftzwerg]

VoP states "You may carry and use a spell component pouch." Spell component pouches contain foci, and so at my table I would rule a Divine Focus meets this criteria and can be carried (a simple wooden one, not a fancy one). Given the thematic flavour of VoP I would think that denying clerics from benefiting from it seems counter-intuitive. Historically it was primarily holy folk (monks, nuns, etc.) who took vows of poverty anyway

Sure you can houserule it that way (and I don't see really that much balancing issue here). But the question is what will OP's DM do/rule here?
Because:

A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t fit in a pouch.
By RAW divine focuses are explicitly not in the pouch sadly.

[Daisy]

Ah, I missed that. Good catch, thanks. So, VoP is even worse than I originally thought! :)

[Curbludgeon]

One might consider taking advantage of the line in the Apostle of Peace stating they can use defensive magic items while still requiring VoP. It can work well with an Incarnum base

[lylsyly]

The most fun I ever had with VoP was a:

Half Minotaur Water Orc
Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Babarian 20 /// Pathfinder Monk 5 / Tattoed Monk 10 / Monk +5
Starting STR 34 CON 26
With Pathfinder feat progression was basically an unarmed ubercharger.

I do have to admit it was only doable because of our houserules but it was fun.

BTW a wooden holy symbol should be allowed if only because of common sense!

[Shpadoinkle]

My honest opinions on it: Cool idea, terrible execution.

There's been a lot of talk about how it's best on or only viable on a monk, but I don't know about that. It prevents monks from flying unless you have a caster buddy slap a Fly spell on you, which takes up actions that could probably be used for something better. As far as ranged attacks, you're pretty much limited to just a sling, which is one of the worse options.

Meldshapers (and in Pathfinder 1e, veilweavers, from Akashic Mysteries) make significantly better use of it though, I think.

(As an aside, I think totemist is pretty much what monk should have been in the first place, and you can reskin the class as a 'monk,' like a Street Fighter-style character for instance, and it works pretty much perfectly.)

As was mentioned earlier, since you're not going to be using your magic item slots anyway, chakra-bound soulmelds allow you to make use of those equipment slots without violating your vow. Plus, they allow you to make up for some deficiencies that Vow of Poverty imposes. A Totem-bound Manticore Belt soulmeld lets you fire off a volley of spikes as a Standard action, and while the range isn't stellar it is pretty solid (the same as a javelin, as I recall.) Later on you can bind it to your Waist chakra and get flight, as just one example.

VoP also means you still get some benefit from magic item slots that are taken up by soulmelds, since normally you have to choose weather to bind a soulmeld to that slot or use an actual item for it (so you can't bind Manticore Belt to your Waist slot AND have a Belt of Giant Strength, for instance, unless you take a feat for that.)

On anybody else it seems like VoP is pretty much a waste of time, honestly.

[Anthrowhale]

Persistent Spell goes well with VoP since it can make up for many item deficits.

I'd suggest bringing persistomancy in for something powerful. Something like Monk 2/Fighter[Pugilist] 2/Cleric[Planning, Spell] 2/Sacred Fist 3/Spelldancer 1/Sacred Fist 7/?? 3 perhaps?

Take as feats:
Human. Sacred Vow
1. VoP
Monk 1: Stunning Fist
Monk 1: Improved Unarmed Strike
Monk 2: Combat Reflexes
3. Combat Casting
Pugilist 1: Endurance
Pugilist 1: Dodge
Pugilist 2: Mobility
Planning domain: Extend Spell
6. Persistent Spell

Oh, and VoP can work with a cleric via the spell Summon Holy Symbol.

[ToranIronfinder]

Ardent makes a good entry into FoP due to the way they learn powers.
Yeah, but the power selection . . . Maybe of it stacla, I would think Egoist or possibly Telepath, as the VOP provides protections that an Egoist really needs. Telepath goes with the flavor.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Oh, and VoP can work with a cleric via the spell Summon Holy Symbol.Except that's not on the list of items a VoP character can use.

You could tattoo a holy symbol on yourself prior to taking VoP and use that, I guess. Maybe. How about turning one of the allowed items into your holy symbol by carving a bunch of iconography on it and getting it blessed by your faith's higher level clergy?

[ToranIronfinder]

Spitballing but human egoist 3/incarnate 2/soul manifester 10/egoist 8.

Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty 1
Azure soul at 3

Egoist makes you a damage dealer, incarnum and VOP cover some of the inherent problems with being a extra squishy close ranged damage dealer.

[Anthrowhale]

Except that's not on the list of items a VoP character can use.
Items which cost nothing to create and last for just a few rounds are a pretty borderline fit for a 'material possession'. The internet's definition of 'material possession' is "property or belongings that are tangible". A spell effect isn't property in the normal sense. Maybe it's a belonging?

I expect many DMs would interpret the spell effect as not a material possession.

[pabelfly]

So I had the pleasure of playing a Vow Of Poverty martial character recently, and the lack of healing options for Vow of Poverty is really an issue and one I don't see discussed nearly enough. Even at low-level, my martial characters typically have a Healing Belt and a few Potions for when the healer is busy or I need an emergency heal in combat before it's the healer's next turn. Instead, your best option is to wait for a heal or get given a potion. Not a great plan.

I'd say Cleric is probably one of the stronger choices for Vow of Poverty, once you decide what way you're going to deal with needing a divine focus (I'd probably go with Worldly Focus so you can cast straight away, even when you're ambushed). Clerics are strong regardless of how you want to use them, and you have access to healing abilities that a VOP character really needs.

[Gruftzwerg]

I did find something nice with google:
Ancestral Speaker is a cleric variant from Dragon Magazine (#311) who is his own Divine Focus and thus doesn't need an item for that.

Downside is that the variant doesn't get domains and what is even worse, no turning/rebuking.. So no Divine Metamagic here..

[pabelfly]

I did find something nice with google:
Ancestral Speaker is a cleric variant from Dragon Magazine (#311) who is his own Divine Focus and thus doesn't need an item for that.

Downside is that the variant doesn't get domains and what is even worse, no turning/rebuking.. So no Divine Metamagic here..

There are classes that grant Turn and Rebuke if you want DMM. It's not as efficient, but you could still make the build work.

[Gruftzwerg]

I recall an Iron Chef build that did some kind of shadow crafting - not shadowcraft mage, but like making items out of shadow stuff? And they laid out how technically you should be able to make basically anything, including magic items I think, without it counting as magic items for the purposes of VoP.

IIRC it was Shadow Conjuration + Minor/Major Creation

You create a shadow illusion item which is mechanically not a real item. Limited duration and no magical stuff. But a VoP character could use the shadow items.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Only if you created the items on the approved list. Otherwise, you lose VoP, unfortunately.

That's why, by RAW, you lose VoP when you open a door, or enter a building, or read a sign or a book.

Yes, VoP RAW is stupid.

[Crake]

Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood has the Create Device feat, which allows you to craft non-magical gothic steampunk versions of magic items (similar to the aesthetic of Frankenstein).

You're allowed to have and use a bunch of nonmagical items from a very limited list -- so sacrifice a bunch of money to make what items you can use into Devices that are as overpowered as you can make them.

Also, you're allowed to wield a sling and ammo; the gnome calculus (A&EG) is a sling, and it uses alchemical items as ammo. That...might be allowed? If you squint a bit?

Vow of poverty has a whitelist of things you can use, and devices made using create device are not on the list, so using them would break your vow of poverty.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Vow of poverty has a whitelist of things you can use, and devices made using create device are not on the list, so using them would break your vow of poverty.Note that I said to turn some of the approved items into devices. They're still on the approved list, and they're still nonmagical.

[Crake]

Note that I said to turn some of the approved items into devices. They're still on the approved list, and they're still nonmagical.

turning an approved item into a device changes the item, so it's not longer an approved item. A device staff is no longer a regular staff, a device sack is no longer a regular sack, device simple clothes are no longer simple clothes.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

turning an approved item into a device changes the item, so it's not longer an approved item. A device staff is no longer a regular staff, a device sack is no longer a regular sack, device simple clothes are no longer simple clothes.Even if that's true, you can still turn a spell component pouch into a device, as that doesn't specify 'simple.' And a device can be a simple object. After all, 'simple' is relative.

And I don't think psionic items are considered magical, so psionic items in a non-transparent campaign are fine, by RAW.

[AvatarVecna]

IIRC it was Shadow Conjuration + Minor/Major Creation

You create a shadow illusion item which is mechanically not a real item. Limited duration and no magical stuff. But a VoP character could use the shadow items.

Found it. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=22192864&postcount=76) It was the Shadowsmith round, which apparently has loose enough restrictions on its creations to plausibly pair well with VoP, and plausibly allow for the use of shapesand and alchemical flasks without actually buying them?

[Anthrowhale]

Spelldancer seems much better than DMM as soon as you can get it anyways.

A tweak to the build below. This allows you to get L9 spells and BAB+16 at ECL 20. Sacred Fist is not delayed, and you can persist almost all spells you might want to.

Monk 2/Fighter[Pugilist] 1/Cleric[Planning, Spell] 3/Sacred Fist 2/Spelldancer 1/Sacred Fist 8/Cleric 3

Take as feats:
Human. Sacred Vow
1. VoP
Monk 1: Stunning Fist
Monk 1: Improved Unarmed Strike
Monk 2: Combat Reflexes
3. Combat Casting
Pugilist 1: Endurance
Pugilist 1: Dodge
Planning domain: Extend Spell
6. Mobility
9. Persistent Spell

[Crake]

Even if that's true, you can still turn a spell component pouch into a device, as that doesn't specify 'simple.' And a device can be a simple object. After all, 'simple' is relative.

And I don't think psionic items are considered magical, so psionic items in a non-transparent campaign are fine, by RAW.

So I just went and looked at the create device feat for the first time ever, since I don't actually use ravenloft material.

Turns out, creating a device might be all well and good, because you see, a device requires a SEPARATE item, a power source, to actually function. So I guess you COULD create a device out of your stuff, but you would lack the power source to actually power the equipment, as the power source is not on the whitelist of approved items for vow of poverty.

Psionic items, maybe, though its shaky ground, considering you need to specifically find a non-transparent game, and then hope your DM goes with it.

[Maat Mons]

You could be a Warforged with Adamantine Body. Maybe also have your Composite Platting be Sanctified (Dungeonscape, p33) to avoid the need for Wordly Focus, if a cleric.

The Dragonscale Husk ACF (Dragon Magic, p12) gives better AC than Vow of Poverty, which amuses me.

Psions have access to Inertial Armor, which also beats out Vow of Poverty. Maybe some sort of Tashalatora build? There are, if memory serves, three different feats that switch a Monk’s AC bonus to Int.

Body Modifications (Dragon 359, p116) might be cosher with Vow of Poverty. The Embedded Holy Symbol is of particular interest to Clerics. Would the Adamantine Skin graft (Faiths of Eberron, p157) be valid for Sanctified?

If you really want, you could make a functional Wizard with Eidetic Spellcaster.

[Soranar]

As far as tashalatora goes,

tashalatora + monastic training makes any psionic class a better monk than the monk

add kung-fu genius and you can take any INT based class too

The strongest such class would have to be a spell to power erudite since you get a workaround for expensive spell components and you get any buff you need really

-greater mighty wallop lasts hours
-polymorph is pretty good and so it draconic polymorph and eventually polymorph any object
-finally you can cast transformation to get your BAB up to a fighter's

ideally you'd be an elan (for emergency hitpoints and to not be a simple humanoid) but a human should work ok

If you want a lower power version of this, you can play an ardent or a psychic rogue

[holbita]

The Dragonscale Husk ACF (Dragon Magic, p12) gives better AC than Vow of Poverty, which amuses me.

To clarify, Dragonscale Husk gives you a +12 bonus to AC, but it also has the following "This bonus doesn't stack with any feat, racial trait, or other special ability that would grant you a bonus to Armor Class". Vow of Poverty gives you a +16 bonus to AC (+10 Exalted +3 Deflection +3 Natural Armor)

Dragonscale Husk will not stack with many things (specially depending on what your DM defines as "special ability that would grant you a bonus to Armor Class", would the effect of a spell count? or is it just limited to things like Skirmish or the Monk AC bonus?).
Vow of Poverty bonuses do not stack with Armor Bonuses which is important to note (but they have no issue with shield bonuses).

Also important to note is that RAW, Dragonscale Husk gives an untyped bonus to AC (it never specifies the type although RAI it seems it should be an armor bonus). Depending on how you rule this detail rating of this ACF will change drastically. I mean, if you are going RAW on it, it adds to touch AC and it stacks with other armor bonuses... and as the monk knows there are plenty of ways to get those while not wearing armor.

So basically, out of the box Vow of Poverty gives more AC while Dragonscale Husk can be abused more if you lean into it.

Oh, also... no DEX limit on Vow of Poverty.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

So I just went and looked at the create device feat for the first time ever, since I don't actually use ravenloft material.

Turns out, creating a device might be all well and good, because you see, a device requires a SEPARATE item, a power source, to actually function. So I guess you COULD create a device out of your stuff, but you would lack the power source to actually power the equipment, as the power source is not on the whitelist of approved items for vow of poverty.Since crafting devices works similarly to magic item crafting, I'd craft the power cell as part of the item using the rules in the MIC, or have my own body upgraded to be its own power cell via grafts or simply by upgrading organs. You're allowed to use your heart since it's part of your body, even if it powers your (likewise modified) unarmed strikes.

You are allowed to use your own body, after all, since it's not an item or an object (unless it is, of course, since intelligent items are a thing).

Can intelligent items take VoP, since they're allowed to use their own bodies just like other animate creatures are?

[pabelfly]

Can intelligent items take VoP, since they're allowed to use their own bodies just like other animate creatures are?

Since there an expectation that they're taking a share of the loot, i would say yes, but the item would need to take a share of the loot and donate it to some in-game charitable cause and would lessen your own loot share. DM would dictate their own interpretation of the feat, of course.

[Wildstag]

To clarify, Dragonscale Husk gives you a +12 bonus to AC, but it also has the following "This bonus doesn't stack with any feat, racial trait, or other special ability that would grant you a bonus to Armor Class". Vow of Poverty gives you a +16 bonus to AC (+10 Exalted +3 Deflection +3 Natural Armor)

Dragonscale Husk will not stack with many things (specially depending on what your DM defines as "special ability that would grant you a bonus to Armor Class", would the effect of a spell count? or is it just limited to things like Skirmish or the Monk AC bonus?).
Vow of Poverty bonuses do not stack with Armor Bonuses which is important to note (but they have no issue with shield bonuses).

Also important to note is that RAW, Dragonscale Husk gives an untyped bonus to AC (it never specifies the type although RAI it seems it should be an armor bonus). Depending on how you rule this detail rating of this ACF will change drastically. I mean, if you are going RAW on it, it adds to touch AC and it stacks with other armor bonuses... and as the monk knows there are plenty of ways to get those while not wearing armor.

So basically, out of the box Vow of Poverty gives more AC while Dragonscale Husk can be abused more if you lean into it.

Oh, also... no DEX limit on Vow of Poverty.

I'd also like to point out that if your GM allows the old WotC web archive content, Vow of Poverty also suggests offering an additional bonus +1 for every armor proficiency you can't use with VoP, as well as a +1 for shield proficiency. This would bring a fighter's VoP to a +20 (+14 Exalted +3 Deflection +3 Natural).

P.S. would the stringent Dragonscale Husk reading also make Fist of the Forest and Monk AC bonuses not apply?

[pabelfly]

I'd also like to point out that if your GM allows the old WotC web archive content, Vow of Poverty also suggests offering an additional bonus +1 for every armor proficiency you can't use with VoP, as well as a +1 for shield proficiency. This would bring a fighter's VoP to a +20 (+14 Exalted +3 Deflection +3 Natural).

Oh that's interesting. Anywhere I can read up more on that one?

[Wildstag]

Oh that's interesting. Anywhere I can read up more on that one?

I believe this is what you want. (https://web.archive.org/web/20161031214913/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20060616a)

[Darg]

P.S. would the stringent Dragonscale Husk reading also make Fist of the Forest and Monk AC bonuses not apply?

The husk is considered medium armor for the the purpose of movement speed and whether you can use class features. So no, the AC bonuses wouldn't work.

[pabelfly]

I believe this is what you want. (https://web.archive.org/web/20161031214913/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20060616a)

Thanks for the link

You know the article is going to be good when it starts with this:

"The Vow of Poverty is a great feat in terms of character development and roleplaying ops, but the feat seems to be unbalanced when taken by Monk and Druid characters..."

[Darg]

It can definitely seem to be unbalanced with a monk, but monk is widely considered unbalanced BECAUSE it doesn't get the benefits armor can provide. The only reason VoP can seem powerful on a monk is that you don't have to rely on party members and custom items as much to keep up.

[Chronos]

Really, the proper solution to the holy symbol issue is to just ask the DM for a houserule. It really should have been on the whitelist to begin with, since having a holy symbol, if anything, fits better with the theme than not having one, and I've never heard of any DM who would disallow it.

[Maat Mons]

"The Vow of Poverty is a great feat in terms of character development and roleplaying ops, but the feat seems to be unbalanced when taken by Monk and Druid characters..."

Well, the Vow of Poverty feat makes Monks worse and Druids better1. Monk is already way too bad. And Druid is already way too good. So Vow of Poverty pushes those two classes even further from equilibrium. That is to say, it unbalances them (more than they already were). Vow of Poverty is unbalanced when taken by those characters2. This quote checks out.

1: Actually, it makes Druids worse too. Just not by as much as it does for other classes.

2: But seriously, comparing Monk and Druid does help illuminate balance problems3 with Vow of Poverty... and with the game in general.

3: Being awful is a type of balance problem.

[Chronos]

It depends on your basis for comparison. You don't (unless you're really bad at optimizing) take Vow of Poverty because you want more power. You take it because you want to play a character without equipment, for roleplaying reasons. From that perspective, it's easily the most powerful feat in the game, because an equipmentless character with VoP is much, much more powerful than an equipmentless character without it. It's still weaker than a character of the same class with proper equipment, but the idea is that it's at least in shouting range of that character.

[Darg]

It depends on your basis for comparison. You don't (unless you're really bad at optimizing) take Vow of Poverty because you want more power. You take it because you want to play a character without equipment, for roleplaying reasons. From that perspective, it's easily the most powerful feat in the game, because an equipmentless character with VoP is much, much more powerful than an equipmentless character without it. It's still weaker than a character of the same class with proper equipment, but the idea is that it's at least in shouting range of that character.

It's like the fighter wizard dichotomy. Not everyone plays to mechanical mastery. As such a wizard is capable of fumbling far harder and farther than a fighter ever could.

[bean illus]

Chameleon. Always Chameleon.

I recently realized that runescarred berserker gets divine power at 3rd, which means a chameleon can have it at 8th.

Healing, liberal doses of permanency (https://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=4544.0) on your plain walking stick.

Maybe take eidetic spellcaster, and 9-10 levels of meldshaper to bind the slots.

It's not a monk, or a front liner but it vops.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Since a character with VoP can't use magic items, what happens if someone, say, casts shillelagh or greater magic weapon on your "simple" quarterstaff? Would an enemy casting them force you to break your vow?

[pabelfly]

Since a character with VoP can't use magic items, what happens if someone, say, casts shillelagh or greater magic weapon on your "simple" quarterstaff? Would an enemy casting them force you to break your vow?

Shillaleigh - no, it just gains an enhancement bonus. There's nothing that explicitly says your weapon is a magic weapon
Greater Magic Weapon - no, see above. The spell name shouldn't have any special meaning here.

You should be right by both common sense logic and RAW rule interpretation, which is pretty nice

[Wildstag]

Yeah, let’s not devolve this into “VoP can’t use a kingdom’s roads because it’s someone’s property.” At a certain point, argue the merits within the realm of the conversation without being a party pooper.

As pabelfly says, the spell text doesn’t say “this weapon becomes a magic weapon”. The spell name is just the spell name, what matters is what the spell effect actually does. In this case, it grants an enhancement bonus and nothing more. On the flip side, the DMG states all magic weapons are masterwork weapons. If the VoP’s weapon is not masterwork, than it has a magic enhancement bonus but is disqualified from the term “magic weapon”.

[Telonius]

Just using a weapon that has an enhancement bonus doesn't seem like it would disqualify a VoP character, since the feat itself grants it.


Exalted Strike (Su): At 4th level, an ascetic gains a +1 enhancement bonus on all his attack and damage rolls. In effect, any weapon the character wields becomes a +1 magic weapon, and can overcome the damage reduction of a creature as though it were a magic weapon. This enhancement bonus rises to +2 at 10th level, to +3 at 14th level, to +4 at 17th level, and to +5 at 20th level. At 10th level, any weapon damage the character deals is also considered to be good-aligned, so that it can bypass the damage reductions of some evil outsiders.

I think it's pretty reasonable to assume abilities aren't and shouldn't be self-disqualifying; and an interpretation that says they are, is not the right interpretation. So receiving buff spells and the like wouldn't violate the vow.

[Darg]

Just using a weapon that has an enhancement bonus doesn't seem like it would disqualify a VoP character, since the feat itself grants it.



I think it's pretty reasonable to assume abilities aren't and shouldn't be self-disqualifying; and an interpretation that says they are, is not the right interpretation. So receiving buff spells and the like wouldn't violate the vow.

The feats also says another can use magic items on your behalf.