Are shields the best weapons?

[Quietus]

So, I was posting in another thread, and I came up with this. Generally, it's accepted that a greatsword is the biggest damaging (barring fullblades and the like, of course) weapon in the game. I have found something that outdoes it, with a small bit of enchanting : a Heavy Spiked Shield.


Compare : +1 bashing heavy spiked shield vs greatsword.

1-handed :
Greatsword : Not possible
Shield : 2d6


2-handed :
Greatsword : 2d6
Shield : (taking -2 to make it Large sized, and improperly balanced for such) 3d6.
These appear more or less equal; the 3.5 damage increase in the shield is approximately equal to what you'd get for power attack. The greatsword, however, lets you pick how much of a penalty you take - although to be fair, the shield allows you to pour just as much BAB into power attacking as the greatsword does, meaning you can achieve more damage in the end, if you can hit.

2-handed enlarged :
Greatsword : 3d6
Shield : (-2 to attacks for size) 4d6
Again, these are pretty much equal, for the same reasons noted above.

2-handed enlarged, weilding an oversized weapon with Monkey Grip (aka the "Making up for something special")
Greatsword : (-2 to attacks for Monkey Grip) 4d6
Shield : (-2 for unusual size, -2 for monkey grip) 6d6
When taking these to this extreme, the shield actually begins to pull ahead of the greatsword. The attack bonus difference of -2 is made up for by an average damage increase of 7 points, more than what you'd get from power attack.



So, what I'm seeing here is that for those looking for massive damage at all costs, a SHIELD is actually their best choice for a weapon. It'll be slightly less accurate than an identically-wielded greatsword, but do 3 points more damage on average - and when you start factoring in other possibilities for size increases, this difference only becomes more notable. The number of d6's added at higher levels continues to increase, eventually making a GIGANTIC difference when taking things like Giant Size and the like into account.

As for other differences; With the shield, you have the option of actually using it *as a shield*, while the greatsword has a larger crit range. Additionally, you can take Improved Shield Bash to keep your shield's AC bonus while fighting with it. There's also the cost comparison, but the interesting thing to note is that the Bashing quality is on the SHIELD, while the spikes themselves are enchanted as separate weapons. That means that a +1 flaming greatsword, for example, would cost 8,000 GP in enchantments.... while a +1 bashing heavy shield with +1 spikes only costs 6,000 GP. As your magical weapons continue to increase in power, assuming you leave your shield as that base, your "weapon" will only cost 4,000 GP more than a comparable greatsword - which, at higher levels, is a pittance out of your WBL.

[MCerberus]

I'm reminded of the "TWF Shield Bash" build for Fighters... especially fun if you get a DM that allows you to use quick draw for your shields as weapons.

[Quietus]

Excuse the double post, I wanted to keep the personal portion of this separate from the actual number crunching. In-game, I could actually see myself using these qualities of shields; I've been wanting to make a character who used a greatsword and took the two-weapon fighting penalties in combination with armor spikes/gauntlets to use the two-weapon defense tree, but this would end up with the same penalties (for an oversized "weapon"), while saving me feats, and being entirely core. Flavor-wise, I admit it would be almost anime-ish in feel, because I'd be using what is essentially a giant bladed wall; my DMs have no problem with us having weapons made specifically to do a different type of damage, so I could make armor "Blades" instead of spikes. As a weapon, I envision it like this (http://www.bleachsp.com/media/ImgZanpakutou/01_Zangetsu.jpg).

Essentially, an enormous wall that I'd strap to my hand (using the hilt-wrap in that picture), with one long, bladed edge. When attacks are coming at me, I can block them with the flat of the .... thing, then twist it around to push their attacks aside while I make my own attacks. This would, of course, require me to take the Improved Shield Bash feat, as well as most likely picking up Monkey Grip to do more than 1d8 damage early on, before my "shield" is magical. So I'm seeing some early levels of Fighter in there, for the BAB, and the ability to pick up two feats. Probably get at least two levels of Fighter, so that I can pick up Improved Shield Bash and Monkey grip at level 1 (Along with Weapon Focus to offset some of that attack penalty if I'm a Human), and then Power Attack at level 2. After that, I can multiclass out into something that'll give me the ability to pick up the required skills/abilities for Kensai - perhaps, if I have a good wisdom, throw in a few levels of Monk (or Swordsage if it's allowed, but we don't play with ToB). All in all... I think that this could be a thoroughly interesting and flavorful way to make this slight rules glitch actually work.


I'm reminded of the "TWF Shield Bash" build for Fighters... especially fun if you get a DM that allows you to use quick draw for your shields as weapons.

TWF shield bash? Well, you COULD do that, but it won't boost your AC. Remember, after all, that two separate shields are two separate shield bonuses to AC, and since they have the same name, they don't stack. Go figure. :smallsigh:

[Nermy]

Well the first thing is that a Heavy Spiked Shield has a base damage of 1d6, so Bashing would make it 1d10.

If you decide to wield a large one two-handed it would do the same damage as a greatsword, except -2 to attack and a lowered critical range.

Also, even if the heavy spiked shield did do 1d6 damage more than the greatsword, that's an average extra damage of 3 when you could use power attack at a -2 penalty with the greatsword to add 4 damage whenever you needed it.

[Quietus]

Well the first thing is that a Heavy Spiked Shield has a base damage of 1d6, so Bashing would make it 1d10.

If you decide to wield a large one two-handed it would do the same damage as a greatsword, except -2 to attack and a lowered critical range.

Also, even if the heavy spiked shield did do 1d6 damage more than the greatsword, that's an average extra damage of 3 when you could use power attack at a -2 penalty with the greatsword to add 4 damage whenever you needed it.

Yes, but the shield adds AC in exchange for crit range. And as noted, if you go for the "making up for something special", you eventually outpace the Power Attack gains, comparably.

Also, Bashing increases it by two steps. 1d6->1d8->2d6. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm


::Edit:: Oh, and the average damage difference is 3.5, not 3. 1(min) +6(max) = 7, half of which is 3.5

[Kaelik]

::Edit:: Oh, and the average damage difference is 3.5, not 3. 1(min) +6(max) = 7, half of which is 3.5

Which is still less then Power Attacking for +4, or more since you could use one of the eight different ways to get more Power Attack Damage. And you have to spend a feat to actually get any AC from this shield In which case take EWP spiked chain. And there are characters with Martial Proficiency and not Shield (though that last one isn't too big a deal.)

[tyckspoon]

Which is still less then Power Attacking for +4, or more since you could use one of the eight different ways to get more Power Attack Damage. And you have to spend a feat to actually get any AC from this shield In which case take EWP spiked chain. And there are characters with Martial Proficiency and not Shield (though that last one isn't too big a deal.)

If you're a fighter, feats are relatively cheap. A standard medium +1 spiked bashing heavy shield does 2d6 damage; wield it in two hands, take Improved Shield Bash, and you're doing the same damage as a greatsword wielder plus getting the shield AC bonus. Not a bad deal for a feat, especially if limited to core stuff. It lags badly until you can get the enchanted version, but even a non-magical spiked heavy shield is a 1d6 weapon that can be wielded two-handed. If the character in question has a good Strength, the benefits of two-handing the shield should cover for the loss of a higher base die roll until the shield can be properly enchanted.

[Kaelik]

If you're a fighter, feats are relatively cheap. A standard medium +1 spiked bashing heavy shield does 2d6 damage; wield it in two hands, take Improved Shield Bash, and you're doing the same damage as a greatsword wielder plus getting the shield AC bonus. Not a bad deal for a feat, especially if limited to core stuff. It lags badly until you can get the enchanted version, but even a non-magical spiked heavy shield is a 1d6 weapon that can be wielded two-handed. If the character in question has a good Strength, the benefits of two-handing the shield should cover for the loss of a higher base die roll until the shield can be properly enchanted.

But the point is you are doing less damage. You are spending money and feats for less damage, lower crit range and some AC. You could just spend that money on a Buckler and the feat on improved Buckler Defense and get the same deal, but better.

[brian c]

But the point is you are doing less damage. You are spending money and feats for less damage, lower crit range and some AC. You could just spend that money on a Buckler and the feat on improved Buckler Defense and get the same deal, but better.

Actually, the point is that you're doing the same amount of damage, minus 0.5 points. And if you get enlarged, you end up doing more damage.

[Skjaldbakka]

But the point is you are doing less damage.

Actually, he is doing more damage, because he is always taking a -2 to hit to gain +3.5 dmg, and he can also power attack.

He is also exploiting the fact that bashing + Monkey Grip = +3 size categories.

You can't put Bashing on a greatsword.

[dyslexicfaser]

So, is there an actual build out there that utilizes this? Perhaps a TWF shield/spike thing? Or you could strap two +1 bashing shields on your arms and go to town... :smallconfused:

[Talic]

So, is there an actual build out there that utilizes this? Perhaps a TWF shield/spike thing? Or you could strap two +1 bashing shields on your arms and go to town... :smallconfused:

I'd go with an oversized +1 bashing shield, and armor spikes personally. Allows you to take the TWF tree, and the Power Attack/Two handed fighting build at the same time. Bonus points if the armor spikes have the Defending Quality.

[Skjaldbakka]

Screw that, get a defending sword with a GMW on it, and then put useful stuff on the spikes, and get your AC to.

[Talic]

Screw that, get a defending sword with a GMW on it, and then put useful stuff on the spikes, and get your AC to.

+4 Defending Greatsword - 50,000
(50,000 total)
Vs

+4 Bashing Large Shield - 25,000
+ 2 Defending Armor Spikes - 18,000
+ +2 Armor - 4,000
(47,000 total)

Greatsword version= +4 to AC from bonuses and stuff, + armor bonus

Vs

Shield version= +10 to AC from bonuses and stuff, while keeping multi-weapon fighting options open, comparable damage, and an overall +2 to hit, since that sword is throwing its enhancement bonus into AC, whereas the shield gets it for both.

Putting it in a WBL comparison shows that the shield can be much more cost effective, and keep good damage, in the right setting.

[Skjaldbakka]

Screw that, get a defending sword with a GMW on it, and then put useful stuff on the spikes, and get your AC to.

Buy a pearl of power if your party wizard is a jerk.

EDIt- just to be clear, I am still talking about Shield+ArmorSpikes as your attack routine. The defending property should go onto a hand-held sword (which you don't make attacks with).

[tyckspoon]

Going spiked shield+spiked armor also lets you use the Blood-Spiked Charger tactical feat, the best option of which lets you do double strength damage on a charge with either or both weapons. Forces you to burn feats on Weapon Focus for both sets of spikes, tho.

More fun Shield feats: Shield Charge and Shield Slam, Complete Warrior- charge an enemy with your shield, get a free trip attempt and force a Fort save against being dazed. Combine with Blood-Spiked Charger and Leap Attack for spiky barbaric death.

Drawback: No matter how cool you imagine the character looking, everybody else will be thinking of Kingdom Hearts Goofy.

[dyslexicfaser]

I guess that would work. It'd be pretty odd to see a bloke with a sword in hand and instead use his armor spikes, though.

EDIT: I have no problem with being Kingdom Hearts Goofy :smallsmile:

[Skjaldbakka]

Drawback: No matter how cool you imagine the character looking, everybody else will be thinking of Kingdom Hearts Goofy.

That had not occured to me until this moment, and that moment will pass as soon as I submit this post.

[Talic]

Screw that, get a defending sword with a GMW on it, and then put useful stuff on the spikes, and get your AC to.

Buy a pearl of power if your party wizard is a jerk.

EDIt- just to be clear, I am still talking about Shield+ArmorSpikes as your attack routine. The defending property should go onto a hand-held sword (which you don't make attacks with).

But then you're using a smaller shield, which will further pull your method here behind on the damage curve. The point is that as damage dice increase from size increases, it outstrips the -2 penalty and becomes more of a bonus than a drawback. You need the oversize for the damage, which precludes an off hand shield. Now, using defending armor spikes is an option.

Keep in mind, GMW can be applied to the armor spikes in my example as well, lowering them to +1, and thus, dropping another 10k off the cost on that side.

Oversized shield will do better damage, which was the point illustrated above.

[Skjaldbakka]

Ah, you're two-handing the shield. Gottcha. Missed that part. Which means there is no reason to use defending armorspikes, since you're going to be attacking with them. Better to use that +1 for energy damage, since extra d6s are what 2WF needs. Although defending armorpsikes would bump your flat-footed AC (no reason not to put that bonus anywhere but to AC outside of combat).

I would never use defending armorspikes myself, because I think the idea is wonky. I don't think that to the degree of using DM veto against them, but its enough of an impact for me not to use them myself.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

I have to remind people that shields are much heavier than weapons of the same size and increasing a size category increases an item's weight by a factor of 8. A normal-sized (one-handed) heavy spiked steel shield weighs 20 pounds. A large shield you're wielding two-handed weighs 160 pounds. An enlarged shield you're wielding two-handed weighs 1280 pounds. That massive shield you're wielding two-handed with monkey grip while enlarged weighs 10240 pounds-or 5 tons.

It doesn't matter how large a weapon you can wield with your monkey grip and how many damage die it does if you can't even lift it off the ground. A heavy steel spiked shield is OK. A two-handed spiked shield is pushing it. Everything else is impossible unless you're a demon with 40 strength.

[Talic]

Ah, you're two-handing the shield. Gottcha. Missed that part. Which means there is no reason to use defending armorspikes, since you're going to be attacking with them. Better to use that +1 for energy damage, since extra d6s are what 2WF needs. Although defending armorpsikes would bump your flat-footed AC (no reason not to put that bonus anywhere but to AC outside of combat).

I would never use defending armorspikes myself, because I think the idea is wonky. I don't think that to the degree of using DM veto against them, but its enough of an impact for me not to use them myself.

You won't want to attack with the spikes on rounds you power attack, which gives the penalty without the bonus (light weapon). Thusly, GMW them and throw the defensive bonus to AC, and you get a bit of extra defense when you're swingin' for the fences. Yes, it's a bit wonky, but I'd like to think of it as spikes that alter their angles to deflect blades to the side and such.


I have to remind people that shields are much heavier than weapons of the same size and increasing a size category increases an item's weight by a factor of 8. A normal-sized (one-handed) heavy spiked steel shield weighs 20 pounds. A large shield you're wielding two-handed weighs 160 pounds. An enlarged shield you're wielding two-handed weighs 1280 pounds. That massive shield you're wielding two-handed with monkey grip while enlarged weighs 10240 pounds-or 5 tons.

It doesn't matter how large a weapon you can wield with your monkey grip and how many damage die it does if you can't even lift it off the ground. A heavy steel spiked shield is OK. A two-handed spiked shield is pushing it. Everything else is impossible unless you're a demon with 40 strength.

One Word. Mithral.

[Skjaldbakka]

Yeah, it aggravates me that you can't stab something really hard with a dagger in D&D.

One Word. Mithral.

Or darkwood. Who says it has to be metal?

[tyckspoon]

I have to remind people that shields are much heavier than weapons of the same size and increasing a size category increases an item's weight by a factor of 8. A normal-sized (one-handed) heavy spiked steel shield weighs 20 pounds. A large shield you're wielding two-handed weighs 160 pounds. An enlarged shield you're wielding two-handed weighs 1280 pounds. That massive shield you're wielding two-handed with monkey grip while enlarged weighs 10240 pounds-or 5 tons.


In addition to the possibility of making the shield of lighter material, I'd like to know where you found the rule that says weight changes by a factor of 8. The Armor and Weapon sections of the rules say that a piece of armor or a weapon that is sized for Small creatures weighs half as much, while a Large one weighs twice as much. A Darkwood or Mithral Large Heavy Shield has the same weight as a normal material Medium one.

[Cybren]

What's stopping you from using a large shield two handed without increasing size?

[Yakk]

One Word. Mithral.

Still 2.5 tonnes.

You could try this all in Darkwood instead of Mithral: wooden shields are lighter than metal shields, and then you get the 50% weight discount.

This reduces the shield weight down to 3840 lbs.

By 30 strength you can carry this as a medium load.

[Skjaldbakka]

What's stopping you from using a large shield two handed without increasing size?

the fact that increasing size increases damage. Which is the point of the exercise.



Still 2.5 tonnes.


This column gives the weight of the armor sized for a Medium wearer. Armor fitted for Small characters weighs half as much, and armor for Large characters weighs twice as much.

Shield, heavy wooden 7 gp 2 — -2 15% — — 10 lb.

Large Size = 20 lbs

WTFAYS?

[dyslexicfaser]

I believe the factor of 8 is how much a PERSON increases in weight when enlarged.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

One Word. Mithral.
Mithral only halves the weight. A 640-pound shield, assuming you have a strength of 18 and get enlarged (resulting in a strength of 20 and double carrying capacity) is still very, very heavy. Your new heavy load is 800 pounds, leaving a remaining 160 pounds. So, other than the shield, before the enlargement took place you could only carry a maximum of 20 pounds of gear (because they too get 8x in weight). So, you can't wear any armor, can't carry a backpack, can't carry loot, only a couple of items plus clothing.

Even at higher levels, assuming a strength of 22, a +6 strength item and enlarge, your max load is 3600 pounds. The non-monkey-gripped shield can be wielded, resulting only in a light load (medium load if you got a few items) but the monkey-gripped one is still more than your maximum load by about 1500 pounds on its own. Darkwood doesn't improve anything-a wooden shield is actually heavier than a mithral one.

So, in order to wield the enlarged two-handed shield you have to have a strength of 18 and not wear any armor at all and even with magical aid you can't wield the monkey-gripped one.


At the same time, a huge (monkey grip, enlarge person) mithral Greatsword weighs only 256 pounds-easily liftable-has a reach of 20 ft and deals a base of 4d6 damage-same as the shield.

[Talic]

Mithral only halves the weight. A 640-pound shield, assuming you have a strength of 18 and get enlarged (resulting in a strength of 20 and double carrying capacity) is still very, very heavy. Your new heavy load is 800 pounds, leaving a remaining 160 pounds. So, other than the shield, before the enlargement took place you could only carry a maximum of 20 pounds of gear (because they too get 8x in weight). So, you can't wear any armor, can't carry a backpack, can't carry loot, only a couple of items plus clothing.

Even at higher levels, assuming a strength of 22, a +6 strength item and enlarge, your max load is 3600 pounds. The non-monkey-gripped shield can be wielded, resulting only in a light load (medium load if you got a few items) but the monkey-gripped one is still more than your maximum load by about 1500 pounds on its own. Darkwood doesn't improve anything-a wooden shield is actually heavier than a mithral one.

So, in order to wield the enlarged two-handed shield you have to have a strength of 18 and not wear any armor at all and even with magical aid you can't wield the monkey-gripped one.


At the same time, a huge (monkey grip, enlarge person) mithral Greatsword weighs only 256 pounds-easily liftable-has a reach of 20 ft and deals a base of 4d6 damage-same as the shield.


But you don't look nearly as funny pinned beneath it?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

I believe the factor of 8 is how much a PERSON increases in weight when enlarged.
Yes. And after listing all the changes to a person, the spell says:

All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell
So the 8x in weight applies to gear too.



This column gives the weight of the armor sized for a Medium wearer. Armor fitted for Small characters weighs half as much, and armor for Large characters weighs twice as much.
That is if you originally make the armor (and shield) for an enlarged character, not if you make the small version and enlarge it. It will look damn funny to make a shield your character can only carry if the wizard casts enlarge person on him and has to carry it in a 4-horse cart at all other times because it weighs five tons.

[tyckspoon]

Yes. And after listing all the changes to a person, the spell says:

So the 8x in weight applies to gear too.



That is if you originally make the armor (and shield) for an enlarged character, not if you make the small version and enlarge it. It will look damn funny to make a shield your character can only carry if the wizard casts enlarge person on him and has to carry it in a 4-horse cart at all other times because it weighs five tons.

You're aware this reading of the spell makes it all but unuseable, aren't you? Everything in the character's backpack suddenly becomes 8 times heavier, his armor is 8 times heavier, even his clothes become an appreciable part of his encumbrance. Even accounting for Large creatures having doubled encumbrance limits, that virtually guarantees that anything you Enlarge is going to be paralyzed under the weight of its own equipment.

How is equipping a medium suit of armor or a shield and then Enlarging yourself any different from having a large suit of armor or a shield to start with? You get exactly the same end item.

[Quietus]

I have to remind people that shields are much heavier than weapons of the same size and increasing a size category increases an item's weight by a factor of 8. A normal-sized (one-handed) heavy spiked steel shield weighs 20 pounds. A large shield you're wielding two-handed weighs 160 pounds. An enlarged shield you're wielding two-handed weighs 1280 pounds. That massive shield you're wielding two-handed with monkey grip while enlarged weighs 10240 pounds-or 5 tons.

It doesn't matter how large a weapon you can wield with your monkey grip and how many damage die it does if you can't even lift it off the ground. A heavy steel spiked shield is OK. A two-handed spiked shield is pushing it. Everything else is impossible unless you're a demon with 40 strength.


http://www.myconfinedspace.com/watermark.php?src=wp-content/uploads/2007/02/razr-phone-doing-it-wrong.jpg

Since we're looking at two actual size increases for the "oversized special", and equipment cost doubles for each size increase, we're looking at an overall x4 weight modifier.

Heavy wooden shield /w spikes : 15 lbs, x4 = 60
Heavy steel shield /w spikes : 20 lbs, x4 = 80

Yes, these are annoyingly heavy. So's freaking full plate. And you don't HAVE to go with the super sized version, you can just as easily use a shield that's only ONE size category larger. Or hell, use the normal one, and grab a GMW'ed defending weapon for astronomical AC. As others have pointed out, if Enlarge Person made all your gear increase in weight by 8x, then you're now wearing 400 lb full plate and carrying an 80 lb spiked chain. That's assuming you're carrying no other gear - if you start with an 18 strength, then your heavy load while Enlarged (and having 20 str) is 800. Your clothing now weighs somewhere in the range of 50 lbs, as well. Those myriad little 1-lb things you carry are now 8. Your composite longbow is now 24 lbs. And this is all assuming you have 20 strength while enlarged; At low levels, most don't.

I think that this weight bit isn't something that necessarily defeats this, but something else that needs to be examined by strict RAW in its own thread. You might have just found another of the wonky rules of D&D.

[Quietus]

Oh, and for sake of argument, I've built up a character conceptually that could take advantage of this : Crunch wise he's a human Paladin5 or other Paladin6, followed by levels of Kensai - primary feats of Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus (spiked heavy shield), and Improved Shield Bash. He uses an oversized heavy spiked shield two-handed, and worships Heironeous. The final four or five levels can be whatever you want; you could even stop Paladin at 3 and pick up a couple of levels of Fighter if you so choose, for extra feats - perhaps Ftr3/Pal3/Kensai10 is a good start, for base saves of 6/2/2 when entering Kensai, along with either five or six feats (weapon focus, combat expertise, improved shield bash, power attack, shield specialization, shield ward? Sounds good to me!).


For fluff :

Before you stands a man of great stature, over six feet tall, in shining plate armor. A holy symbol of Heironeous hangs proudly at his hip, but that is hardly this man's most notable trait. His armor, polished and gleaming, is covered in what are, functionally, large spikes - each fashioned after the lightning bolt that serves as his patron's symbol. Even more oddly than that, however, is the sheild that he carries, if it can be called that. An enormous affair, it has a shape similar to that of a heavy shield, but has been forged to be a replica of Heironeous' symbol itself, a giant fist holding a lightning bolt. Covering the front of this shield is hundreds of spiky protrusions, and along the lower edge, more lightning bolt spikes radiate outward, presumably giving some functional benefit, though it's hard to imagine what. Despite his entirely unorthodox equipment, which some might consider foolish in appearance, he radiates an aura of confidence, utterly certain that the work he does is for the betterment of all.

[Kaelik]

At the same time, a huge (monkey grip, enlarge person) mithral Greatsword weighs only 256 pounds-easily liftable-has a reach of 20 ft and deals a base of 4d6 damage-same as the shield.

Except that weapons don't have reach, people do. As such you only get 10ft reach.

Not to mention I call Shenanigans on your whole 8 times thing. You've been asked several times where that's from, you've never explained. An increase in size causes objects to weigh some amount more, but an increase in size for a person changes encumbrance rules as well. However I doubt either of those effects is out of line with the halving of weight for small creatures, and the 3/4ing of encumbrance.

EDIT: I see we've dealt with that. But ignore enlarge person for a moment and just look at the basic shield, increase size category twice (once to two hand, once to monkey grip (I don't know if or how this works, I'm just saying)) then you have something that weighs 80lbs, a lot, but not impossible.

[Fawsto]

80 lbs... Tunr it to Kg and it is something like 40 Kg, right? Or am I doing it worng? I can totally imagine the character. It seems quite unusual and much more interesting than those spiked chain users... If you want spikes, put them in your armor, I say!


Hmmm... I am seriously thinking of using that next time I make a Fighter... A defensive juggernaut that can smash his foes with a big wooden/steel wall. Cool.

Hey... That feat, Divine Shield, it stack with other magical bonuses? I mean, i will worth it when you arrive in epic XD

Also, a lot of Monkey Grip around, I wonder wich was the "good use" to monkey grip that Fax Celestis found, can you clarify?

[Kaelik]

Also, a lot of Monkey Grip around, I wonder wich was the "good use" to monkey grip that Fax Celestis found, can you clarify?

The good use for monkey grip is multipliers IE Spirited Charge with Lance + some Cavalier thing. Also using all he normal Power Attack stuff. Basically you end up with weapon damage X6 or something.

[sikyon]

80 pounds is around 30 kilos, and is a fine weight. Str 18 allows a character to shoulder press 300 pounds, and 80 pounds to bash someone with a sheild with 2 hands is very reasonable at that point.

[Person_Man]

Shields are generally poor weapons. If you want a shield bonus to AC while using two handed Power Attack, buy an Animated Shield. It's cheap, and its core. Or you can use UMD with a Wand of Shield. Or find a way to get access to some spells or psionics. Or you can make a custom magic item (bracers, ring, etc) that provides a shield bonus - I allow this for my PCs all the time, because they dislike the "visual" of a floating shield.

In general, spending a feat on any marginal bonus is a very bad idea. There are far, far too many much better feats available. Furthermore, even very strait forward combos often require 2-4 feats to pull off, and you need to be very efficient in your choices if you want to stay remotely on par with casters at higher levels. So its rare for any melee build to have "feats to burn" regardless of their class.

Having said that, there are some interesting Captain America-esque builds out there. Improved Unarmed Strike + Improved Shield Bash + TWF works ok, wince you can Power Attack with both weapons without any attack penalties. Another interesting combo is Active Shield Defense + Robilar's Gambit - this allows you to fight on the full defensive, but still allows you to make AoO. I'd also allow a Kensai to have a magic spiked shield that improves both the shield and the shield spikes.

[Quietus]

Shields are generally poor weapons. If you want a shield bonus to AC while using two handed Power Attack, buy an Animated Shield. It's cheap, and its core. Or you can use UMD with a Wand of Shield. Or find a way to get access to some spells or psionics. Or you can make a custom magic item (bracers, ring, etc) that provides a shield bonus - I allow this for my PCs all the time, because they dislike the "visual" of a floating shield.

This is also core. It's just a +1 bashing spiked shield; it's just as core as a +1 animated shield, while also being cheaper. And doesn't require an action to make it start working. The point here, of course, is that I'm essentially trading 2 points of attack bonus for an extra d6 (or two, or more, at higher sizes) of damage - so your animated shield + greatsword requires an action to activate the animated portion, as well as doing less damage, but does that damage more accurately.

Besides that, if we're looking purely at fluff, we get more or less the same thing; you and your players like the "visual" of a floating shield, while I personally like the mental image of deflecting attacks off the side of my wall of weapon.

[Kaelik]

The point here, of course, is that I'm essentially trading 2 points of attack bonus for an extra d6 (or two, or more, at higher sizes) of damage - so your animated shield + greatsword requires an action to activate the animated portion, as well as doing less damage, but does that damage more accurately.

1) Or he can do more damage at the same BAB.
2) Animated Shields don't require any activation, you never waste an action.

[Jack Zander]

1) Or he can do more damage at the same BAB.
2) Animated Shields don't require any activation, you never waste an action.

No, he can't do more damage at the same BAB. The shield is doing an average of 3.5 points more damage than the greatsword.

[Triaxx]

While crit range was mentioned as an issue earlier, remember that armor spikes do piercing damage, and are thereby eligible for Keen.

[Quietus]

1) Or he can do more damage at the same BAB.
2) Animated Shields don't require any activation, you never waste an action.

Large sized shield, no monkey grip, does 3d6, and is wielded as a two-handed weapon for a medium character.

Medium greatsword, no monkey grip, does 2d6 and is wielded as a two-handed weapon for a medium character.

For sake of argument, let's say we're both level 6 fighters. I'll use my shield of doom. We both have 18 strength. I give up my full base attack bonus for power attack, so do you. I do 3d6+18. You do 2d6+18. I'm 2 points of attack bonus behind you, but gained a full d6 on you. How are you going to do more damage?



While crit range was mentioned as an issue earlier, remember that armor spikes do piercing damage, and are thereby eligible for Keen.

So's the greatsword, so that really is still an even point, since that's what we're comparing the shield to.

[13_CBS]

Why don't you guys have a quick build-off?

Each of you build 2 fighters, one at level 6 and the other at level 16.
Everyone starts off with 18 in STR, 15 DEX and CON, 10 in all else (you can add 1 to a stat every 4 levels, of course).
Race, human.
Wealth will be by level, and for now...let's say core only.

[Matthew]

This isn't a particularly new concept, though, is it? It's pretty much what the Blood Spiked Charger Feat was created for. The last time this came up, the objections were to the idea that you could use a Heavy Shield:

1) As a Primary Attack

2) Two Handed

As far as can be reasonably determined from the FAQ, it's entirely possible in my opinion.

[Quietus]

Why don't you guys have a quick build-off?

Each of you build 2 fighters, one at level 6 and the other at level 16.
Everyone starts off with 18 in STR, 15 DEX and CON, 10 in all else (you can add 1 to a stat every 4 levels, of course).
Race, human.
Wealth will be by level, and for now...let's say core only.

I'd be up for that if he is. You have a level in mind? I think 20 would be a bit much in terms of way too much to deal with; I'd say either 6 (since any build is only worthwhile if you can survive the low levels with it) or 12, since that's a nice cutoff point for a straight fighter.

::Edit:: I think 6 is the better way to look at this, and then detail a few options for the higher levels without building those higher-level characters. I'd also be fine with using any class, so long as we keep it as a comparison of Spiked Shield vs Greatsword.

[Kaelik]

No, he can't do more damage at the same BAB. The shield is doing an average of 3.5 points more damage than the greatsword.

Except that I was under the impression that that was with Monkey Grip IE power attack for 2 and get 4 damage, same AB.


Large sized shield, no monkey grip, does 3d6, and is wielded as a two-handed weapon for a medium character.

Medium greatsword, no monkey grip, does 2d6 and is wielded as a two-handed weapon for a medium character.

For sake of argument, let's say we're both level 6 fighters. I'll use my shield of doom. We both have 18 strength. I give up my full base attack bonus for power attack, so do you. I do 3d6+18. You do 2d6+18. I'm 2 points of attack bonus behind you, but gained a full d6 on you. How are you going to do more damage?

That's nice, and if true gives a slight advantage in damage to the Shield at the cost of money, but earlier I thought you said that the 3d6 was with Monkey Grip. My argument all along has been that it isn't worth it in that case. If it makes 3d6 without Monkey Grip then that's not my objection anymore.

[dr awesome phd]

While I've never done the spiked charger, or spiked shield guy... I did do a spike armor grappler which was pretty funny.

[Yrnes]

Why don't you guys have a quick build-off?

Each of you build 2 fighters, one at level 6 and the other at level 16.
Everyone starts off with 18 in STR, 15 DEX and CON, 10 in all else (you can add 1 to a stat every 4 levels, of course).
Race, human.
Wealth will be by level, and for now...let's say core only.

I don't think thats entirely necessary, unless you're looking only for maximizing damage.

Quietus has demonstrated that the shield can go point for point with the greatsword, and even if through spells and gear the greatsword can out-edge the shield, its still clear that the same can be done for the shield through the spikes.

Whats more is, the shield opens up a ton of new feats for your fighter to take (dip into cleric for divine shield, anyone? although I'm not positive if it'd stack), and perhaps a new "visual" for him as well, as it was mentioned earlier. Besides, the idea of a fighter that only brings a shield to battle would be A LOT of fun to roleplay, I think it would call for some cross-class skills like Bluff and such.

[F.L.]

Also, the point of a shield build is to wear red-white-and-blue spandex and to fight Nazis. Make sure to get some Wakandian Vibranium for the shield.

[Quietus]

Except that I was under the impression that that was with Monkey Grip IE power attack for 2 and get 4 damage, same AB.



That's nice, and if true gives a slight advantage in damage to the Shield at the cost of money, but earlier I thought you said that the 3d6 was with Monkey Grip. My argument all along has been that it isn't worth it in that case. If it makes 3d6 without Monkey Grip then that's not my objection anymore.

Ah, the old miscommunication. Yes. Being a one-handed weapon, a Heavy Spiked Shield with the Bashing quality (2d6 damage) is the same effort to wield as a longsword. Thus, you can get a Large one (3d6) and wield it at a -2 penalty as a two-handed weapon. You can then Monkey Grip a Huge one for -4 penalty/4d6 damage, and while enlarged, that goes up to 6d6 (and effectively a Gargantuan shield).

[Kaelik]

Ah, the old miscommunication. Yes. Being a one-handed weapon, a Heavy Spiked Shield with the Bashing quality (2d6 damage) is the same effort to wield as a longsword. Thus, you can get a Large one (3d6) and wield it at a -2 penalty as a two-handed weapon. You can then Monkey Grip a Huge one for -4 penalty/4d6 damage, and while enlarged, that goes up to 6d6 (and effectively a Gargantuan shield).

Oh I see, then my statement still stands. Greatsword does better damage at the AB. And is a better option if damage is you only concern. Shield provides options, but doesn't do more.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

So, I was posting in another thread, and I came up with this.

I remember Matthew suggested something similar in one of those endless TWF vs. Two-handed weapon threads.

The question is if it is reasonable to allow a shield to be used as a two-handed weapon?


Shield, Heavy, Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A heavy shield is so heavy that you can’t use your shield hand for anything else.

...

Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon.



Monkey Grip:

You only benefit from Monkey Grip if the weapon is one size category larger than you, so you would not be able to wield a shield two sizes larger than you.


You can use melee weapons one size category larger than you are with a -2 penalty on the attack roll, but the amount of effort it rakes you to use the weapon does not change.


Shield Spikes:

Shield Spikes effectively increase the size category by one.


Shield Spikes: When added to your shield, these spikes turn it into a martial piercing weapon that increases the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you.

[Fawsto]

Can this monstrosity I am to post exist?


Anyway a Animated/Dancing Spiked Shield Bash while the user TWF with a Greatsword? I mean, you still can attack with the shield, but your hand is free now, so you can wield your greatsword normaly. It would be awesome!

[Quietus]

Okay, so based on what Lord_Silvanos has posted for us, this means that the shield can *only* equal a greatsword in damage output, barring crits. As for the off-hand thing... well, strictly by RAW, I agree that that one little tidbit ruins the entire mess. Which is unfortunate, although personally, as a DM, I'd allow a player to do this. I mean, why not? As a houserule (which is what it would essentially be, although it seems odd to permanently relegate it to off-hand..), there's nothing unbalancing about allowing a player to two-hand a shield in a bash, and flavor it as a "wall of weapon". It's a very minor allowance, requires a feat (as if it were an exotic weapon, how convenient!), and expands possibilities for the melee characters by a great deal.

So, strictly by RAW, yeah... I agree that by the letter of the law, it doesn't work. Unfortunate. By the spirit of the rules, however, I see no reason why a DM couldn't allow it - it's no more silly than a spiked chain, or for that matter, firing four highly-aimed arrows in six seconds.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Can this monstrosity I am to post exist?

No.


Anyway a Animated/Dancing Spiked Shield Bash while the user TWF with a Greatsword? I mean, you still can attack with the shield, but your hand is free now, so you can wield your greatsword normaly. It would be awesome!


You cannot Bash with a shield you are not holding. However, you could make it dancing.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Okay, so based on what Lord_Silvanos has posted for us, this means that the shield can *only* equal a greatsword in damage output, barring crits. As for the off-hand thing... well, strictly by RAW, I agree that that one little tidbit ruins the entire mess. Which is unfortunate, although personally, as a DM, I'd allow a player to do this. I mean, why not? As a houserule (which is what it would essentially be, although it seems odd to permanently relegate it to off-hand..), there's nothing unbalancing about allowing a player to two-hand a shield in a bash, and flavor it as a "wall of weapon". It's a very minor allowance, requires a feat (as if it were an exotic weapon, how convenient!), and expands possibilities for the melee characters by a great deal.

So, strictly by RAW, yeah... I agree that by the letter of the law, it doesn't work. Unfortunate. By the spirit of the rules, however, I see no reason why a DM couldn't allow it - it's no more silly than a spiked chain, or for that matter, firing four highly-aimed arrows in six seconds.

The off-hand comment is not a problem. You can clearly use a shield as you main weapon, they just wrote it like that, because off-hand use seemed like a more obvious use. Or in other words; They did not have fantasy to imagine things differently.

However, you do need to strap it to your forearm, so if you want to wield it two-handed do you strap both arms in with the result that you cannot use either of them for anything else?
The result would then be that once you are strapped in you cannot remove the shield yourself since that requires the use of a hand (move action), which you don't have available?
This is of course just musing over a possible RAW interpretation and are rather silly.

RAI, it seems clear that the shield was not intended to be used two-handed.

House rule? Why not. If you think it is cool I don't see much of a problem. Although maybe the shield needs a special handle for optimal use for two-handed bashes?

[Fawsto]

Ok, but a Dancing and/or Animated shield can attack and retain AC Bonus? (With proper feat, of course). If yes, can, them, the user still hold a 2hander and attack?

[Renegade Paladin]

TWF shield bash? Well, you COULD do that, but it won't boost your AC. Remember, after all, that two separate shields are two separate shield bonuses to AC, and since they have the same name, they don't stack. Go figure. :smallsigh:
True, but have one shield be +x for the AC and load a bunch of properties onto the other one. The AC won't stack, but the properties from either will apply. :smallamused:

[Reel On, Love]

True, but have one shield be +x for the AC and load a bunch of properties onto the other one. The AC won't stack, but the properties from either will apply. :smallamused:

Yeah, all those great shield properties! Like...

Like...

I'm drawin' a blank here, guys.

[Renegade Paladin]

Yeah, all those great shield properties! Like...

Like...

I'm drawin' a blank here, guys.
Fortification? Ghost touch? Elemental resistances? Arrow deflection? Come on, that's just from memory; I'm not even trying here.

[Quietus]

However, you do need to strap it to your forearm, so if you want to wield it two-handed do you strap both arms in with the result that you cannot use either of them for anything else?
The result would then be that once you are strapped in you cannot remove the shield yourself since that requires the use of a hand (move action), which you don't have available?
This is of course just musing over a possible RAW interpretation and are rather silly.

RAI, it seems clear that the shield was not intended to be used two-handed.

House rule? Why not. If you think it is cool I don't see much of a problem. Although maybe the shield needs a special handle for optimal use for two-handed bashes?

I'd say that you wouldn't need to strap in both arms... you strap in one arm so that you can use it as a shield, the other is used mainly for extra oomph when bashing with it, and for aiming the blow.

As for the handle idea, I could see that making a lot of sense as a "masterwork component" - the shield has to be properly balanced to accept that handle as being worth using, and the handle allows the weilder a greater range of control. But yeah, the developers definitely never thought that someone would use a shield as their PRIMARY weapon.

[Gungnir]

I like TWF with shields because it turned my fighter into a giant spiked metal crab of doomy doom doom.

[the_tick_rules]

just make sure it doesn't get sundered or something, then ya lost everything.

[tyckspoon]

just make sure it doesn't get sundered or something, then ya lost everything.

A danger for all weapon-using fighters. Sundering is up there with Disjunctions and Rust-using monsters as a DM jerkass tactic.. although you can at least have a broken magic weapon repaired. It's still pretty expensive.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Ok, but a Dancing and/or Animated shield can attack and retain AC Bonus? (With proper feat, of course). If yes, can, them, the user still hold a 2hander and attack?

Yes, an Animated and Dancing shield can attack and still provide the AC bonus of the shield while the user wields a two-handed weapon.

It only works for 4 rounds at a time of course....


I'd say that you wouldn't need to strap in both arms... you strap in one arm so that you can use it as a shield, the other is used mainly for extra oomph when bashing with it, and for aiming the blow.

Nay, that would be rather silly. Just pointing out that the RAW did not have place for your extra hand. :smallwink:

[Fawsto]

Hmmm... Btw... Anyone with a shield that big and 2handed would end looking like a monster from a underated "card based anime", if you can get me xD

[Fhaolan]

Two-handed dueling shields did in fact exist in RL, so there's nothing wrong with the concept. They usually had large hooks and spikes to use for tripping and disarming.

The fluff around shields is a bit twitchy in places in D&D, which can cause confusion. Not all RL shields are strapped to the arm. Many shields are 'center punch' meaning that they held purely by handles, not straps. Viking round shields, for instance, were often center-punch.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

The fluff around shields is a bit twitchy in places in D&D, which can cause confusion. Not all RL shields are strapped to the arm. Many shields are 'center punch' meaning that they held purely by handles, not straps. Viking round shields, for instance, were often center-punch.

No, but the straps are probably why D&D shields take a move action to don and a move action to remove.

[Fhaolan]

No, but the straps are probably why D&D shields take a move action to don and a move action to remove.

I'm not feeling that well, so my brain's a bit squishy. To what was the 'No' for? That non-strapped shields existed in RL, that the term 'center punch' is usually applied to this style, that many Viking-style shields were this type, or that D&D shields in general don't model this type?

It's not that *you* were unclear, just that I'm not thinking as clearly as I could be. :smallsmile:

Yeah, the whole move action to don and remove does imply that D&D shields don't model the center-punch style of shield. The problem is to bring the detail up to model it properly would then require that you can have a shield that is faster to don/remove, but it requires a higher strength score to use. I can't think of ways this could be abused, but as mentioned before, I'm not thinking that clearly. :smallsmile:

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

I'm not feeling that well, so my brain's a bit squishy. To what was the 'No' for? That non-strapped shields existed in RL, that the term 'center punch' is usually applied to this style, that many Viking-style shields were this type, or that D&D shields in general don't model this type?

It's not that *you* were unclear, just that I'm not thinking as clearly as I could be. :smallsmile:

Well, I guess it should have been a "yes", but the intend was to acknowledge your RL examples and then bring the full force of the RAW down upon them. :smalltongue:


Yeah, the whole move action to don and remove does imply that D&D shields don't model the center-punch style of shield. The problem is to bring the detail up to model it properly would then require that you can have a shield that is faster to don/remove, but it requires a higher strength score to use. I can't think of ways this could be abused, but as mentioned before, I'm not thinking that clearly. :smallsmile:


You could quick draw a shield and weapon as free actions to switch from ranged attacks to sword and board, but that is hardly abusive since sword and board generally is considered an inferior style.

However, you could also attack with your two-handed weapon and then quick draw your heavy shield and just hold the two-handed weapon in one hand. Next round you drop the shield and attack two-handed and continue to quick draw your second shield.
Repeat until the encounter is over.
:smalltongue:

At some point any reasonable DM might want to impose a restriction on the number of shields that can be carried at your belt, but that might also call for more realism in areas that are usually ignored...

[WorthingSon]

If you are going the oversized weapon route, please compare to a Bastard Sword. Take EWP Bastard Sword, and you now have a 1d10 medium 1h weapon. Up a size and you now have 2d8 large 2h -2 hit (see PHB pg. 117). then up with Monkey Grip, 3d8 huge 2h -4 hit. Enlarge and you have 4d8 huge 2h -4 hit. Then add the Heavy Property if you are allowing none core books, and you have a 6d8 huge 2h bastard sword -4 hit. Giving you a 6-48 (27 avg) damage 19-20/x2 crit with 2 feats.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

If you are going the oversized weapon route, please compare to a Bastard Sword. Take EWP Bastard Sword, and you now have a 1d10 medium 1h weapon. Up a size and you now have 2d8 large 2h -2 hit (see PHB pg. 117). then up with Monkey Grip, 3d8 huge 2h -4 hit. Enlarge and you have 4d8 huge 2h -4 hit. Then add the Heavy Property if you are allowing none core books, and you have a 6d8 huge 2h bastard sword -4 hit. Giving you a 6-48 (27 avg) damage 19-20/x2 crit with 2 feats.

Please read my earlier comment about Monkey Grip and why you cannot use a weapon two-sizes larger than you.

[WorthingSon]

Please read my earlier comment about Monkey Grip and why you cannot use a weapon two-sizes larger than you.

As I have already had this argument. It does not say it is limited to one size larger. The point of the one size larger statment is that that is where the change is most apparent. As in when you use Monkey Grip and wield a weapon one size larger, it takes no extra effort but applies a -2 to hit. (see previous argument quoted below.)


It also does not specifically delineate that is NOT applicable to greater than one size increase. This is a case of vauge wording. I choose to look to the general description to decide how to clarify this. It reads "You are able to use a larger weapon than other people your size." That does not imply any special limit to the amount larger.

In every case I can think of in D&D such special cases are specificaly noted. If wizards wants something to read you can do this EXCEPT for blah blah blah, they make sure to say EXCEPT blah blah blah. So Monkey Grip, by your interpretation, SHOULD say (changes in bold)


You can use melee weapons only one size category
larger than you are with a -2 penalty on the attack roll, but
the amount of effort it takes you to use the weapon does
not change. For instance, a Large longsword (a one-handed
weapon for a large crearure) is considered a two-handed
weapon for a Medium creature that does not have this feat.
For a Medium creature that has this feat, it is still considered
a one-handed weapon. You can wield a larger light weapon as
a light weapon, or a larger two-handed weapon in two hands.
You cannot wield a larger weapon in your off hand, and you
cannot use this feat with a double weapon, and you can
only use this feat for weapons up to one size larger.


I find it hard to believe that they would go throught he trouble of speficialy noting all the exceptions to monkey grip and leave out something as major as only for one size larger.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

As I have already had this argument. It does not say it is limited to one size larger. The point of the one size larger statment is that that is where the change is most apparent. As in when you use Monkey Grip and wield a weapon one size larger, it takes no extra effort but applies a -2 to hit. (see previous argument quoted below.)

well you can choose to interpret it differently in your games, but that does not change the RAW.
The point of the feat text is to describe how the feat works and when its benefits apply. In this case Monkey Grip clearly states that it applies to weapons "one size category larger than you are".

[tainsouvra]

As I have already had this argument. It does not say it is limited to one size larger. The point of the one size larger statment is that that is where the change is most apparent. As in when you use Monkey Grip and wield a weapon one size larger, it takes no extra effort but applies a -2 to hit. (see previous argument quoted below.) Responses to that thread which cleanly refute what you claim:
Alright, in D&D the rules are that if nothing says you can, it is generally assumed you cannot.

If monkey grip says you can wield a weapon specifically one size larger than you are, then you can. If monkey grip does not say that you can wield a weapon two sizes larger, you cannot.

That's it.
The statement "one size category larger than you are" seems to be pretty explicit as to what the feat applies to, which makes your statement earlier (the "it talks about using oversized weapons and you cannot apply a special limit to it becasue it never says there is one..." one) patently false. It does specify a specific limit: one size category larger than you are. I'm sorry, but you're wrong, and you've already had it explained why...it's kind of silly to post a quote from a thread in which the quoted statement was proven wrong already, don't you think? :smallconfused:

[WorthingSon]

well you can choose to interpret it differently in your games, but that does not change the RAW.
The point of the feat text is to describe how the feat works and when its benefits apply. In this case Monkey Grip clearly states that it applies to weapons "one size category larger than you are".

But is does not say only one size larger. By your interpretation, as a medium creature I can wield a Huge Dagger as a two handed weapon, but not as a one handed weapon with monkey grip because it says huge in the name; but I CAN wield a large Long sword as a one handed weapon even though it takes the same effort without monkey grip because it say large in the name...


I'm sorry, but you're wrong, and you've already had it explained why...it's kind of silly to post a quote from a thread in which the quoted statement was proven wrong already, don't you think? :smallconfused:

Actually the people I was debating with simply stopped replying. They never gave me any source to back their interpritation. Yes, they posted arguments for my thoughts... but that does not make them right.

[tainsouvra]

But is does not say only one size larger. It also doesn't say that eating grapes will give you the ability to fire napalm from your nostrils. D&D doesn't work that way though--abilities only let you do what they are explicitly described as letting you do.

[WorthingSon]

D&D doesn't work that way though--abilities only let you do what they are explicitly described as letting you do.

And restrictions to those abilities work the same way. Unless it says this only applies here, then it can apply other places.

By your train of thought if there was a feat that improved flaming weapons, it would not apply to +1 flaming weapons because it is +1.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

But is does not say only one size larger. By your interpretation, as a medium creature I can wield a Huge Dagger as a two handed weapon, but not as a one handed weapon with monkey grip because it says huge in the name; but I CAN wield a large Long sword as a one handed weapon even though it takes the same effort without monkey grip because it say large in the name...

If they should write "only" every time they made a statement that told you what to do it would quickly become ridiculous.


Actually the people I was debating with simply stopped replying. They never gave me any source to back their interpritation. Yes, they posted arguments for my thoughts... but that does not make them right.


The only source necessary is the Monkey Grip feat description. It tell you exactly how it works.

[tainsouvra]

And restrictions to those abilities work the same way. Unless it says this only applies here, then it can apply other places.

By your train of thought if there was a feat that improved flaming weapons, it would not apply to +1 flaming weapons because it is +1. That is false because +1 flaming weapons are explicitly stated as being flaming weapons. Sorry, but D&D just plain doesn't work the way you describe.

[WorthingSon]

The only source necessary is the Monkey Grip feat description. It tell you exactly how it works.

Right, it says you can wield larger weapons with less effort. It does not say you can wield a weapon only one size larger. In all cases I know of where the rules say you cannot use X to do Y it says that. Read the bottom of monkey Grip, it specifically mentions all the exception to Monkey Grip, and none of them talk about weapons more than one size larger.


That is false because +1 flaming weapons are explicitly stated as being flaming weapons. Sorry, but D&D just plain doesn't work the way you describe.

And by standard mathmatical logic a weapon two sizes larger is a weapon one size larger than a weapon one size larger; thus your reading of Monkey Grip still applies. You would use monkey grip to allow you to wield one of the size increases and use the standard rules for the other one.

[tainsouvra]

And by standard mathmatical logic a weapon two sizes larger is a weapon one size larger than a weapon one size larger ...which is not a weapon one size larger, it is a weapon one sizer larger than a weapon one size larger.

Edit:
To clarify, I'm not saying that it would be a poor house rule--only that it would have to be a house rule.

[Matthew]

Have to side with Lord Silvanos, Fax Celestis, Zincorium and Tainsouvra on this one. When a Feat says it will let you use a Weapon One Size Category Larger as an exception to the general rule that you cannot, it cannot be interpreted to mean two, three, four or more.

As for the Dagger example, D&D size categories do not map realistically onto our expectations. Dwarves are Medium Sized regardless of height and weight, which means that even a 3' 9" 104 lb Dwarven Female with a Strength of 3 can use a Great Sword, but not a Large Great Sword, which is the same restriction imposed on a 6' 6" 280 lb Human Male with a Strength of 18.

That said, a given DM is free to use his best judgement in these matters.

[Kaelik]

But is does not say only one size larger.

Wizards gain spells per day as per the table. But it doesn't say they only gain spells per day as on the table. Does that mean Wizards can have twice the spells on the table if they want? No. Because the lack of the word only doesn't change that they are granted an ability and that ability does not get to double simply because the rules don't explicitly say that it doesn't.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Right, it says you can wield larger weapons with less effort. It does not say you can wield a weapon only one size larger. In all cases I know of where the rules say you cannot use X to do Y it says that.

You must be kidding me or yourself. There are an almost unlimited list of examples where the word "only" is not included!


Read the bottom of monkey Grip, it spefically mentions all the exception to Monkey Grip, and none of them talk about weapons more than one size larger.


The exceptions mentioned at the bottom are there to address relevant questions that might arise. Wielding a two sizes larger weapon is not mentioned, because it is clear from the description where the feat applies.

[Gungnir]

"You can use melee weapons one size category larger than you are~"

That seems plenty clear to me. One size bump, no more. If it said You can wield them as if they were one size smaller, then yeah, but as it is, I think not.

[Battalion]

My personal take on the shield fighter would be to have a cleric1/FighterX. Go for Extra Turning and Divine Vigor at level 1 followed by either divine cleansing at 3 or Divine Shield and Divine healing at 6. You wouldn't be able to delve enough into TWF to get the damage you want but you can offset that by getting vicious on your shield since you'll be able to heal the damage from vic. Asides from that spend your fighter feats on additions to AC, Improved Shield Bash and whatever else you want to go into. You want be perfect in anything but you'll likely be the most useful fighter your party's even seen.

[Dode]

That seems plenty clear to me. One size bump, no more. If it said You can wield them as if they were one size smaller, then yeah, but as it is, I think not. Even if it did work, wouldn't power attacking for -4 with a medium, two-handed spiked shield be more effective anyway?

[Frosty]

Power Attack is always better than Monkey Grip.

[Jack Zander]

Power Attack is always better than Monkey Grip.

I think the halfling fighters would like to have a word with you.

[Quietus]

Power Attack is always better than Monkey Grip.

Until you get enough size increases - someone mentioned a "heavy" ability somewhere in this thread, and in so doing, gave another source of increase, which would let you go from 4d6 to 6d6 damage with my shield without monkey grip. If your DM is houseruling you to allow monkey grip anyway, this becomes 6d6 - either way, it's an increase of 2d6, which is 7 average damage for a -2 penalty. As opposed to 4 damage for a -2 penalty. Apparently Fax also found something somewhere along the way to do with multipliers... but I don't know much about that, so I'll let him describe that.

Anyhow, even with the monkey grip part shot down, we're still looking at the fact that a shield with a single +1 ability on it is just as effective when used as a melee weapon as a greatsword is - and that the addition of a feat means that you get a bonus to your AC for it, as well. Even if one part of this is shot down, the fact of the matter still stands that it's incredibly *silly* that you can do this with a shield - although it does open up many new potential avenues for character ideas.

[WorthingSon]

Power Attack is always better than Monkey Grip.

Unless you are using a weapon that is 1d10 as a medium weapon. That steps up in increments of d8's, which average an additional 4.5 damage. 2h a 1d10 with 2 Power Attack yields 9.5 average damage. 2h a 2d8 with no power attack, but -2 for size yields 9 average damage. So at that point, power attack wins, but if you are one size larger... 2d8 with 2PA -> 13; 3d8 no PA -> 13.5 so this time Monkey grip does more damage. If you are two sizes larger than that, Monkey grip wins by even more: 4d8 +2 PA -> 22; 6d8 -> 27. Granted, Power attack wins for a medium creature, but when you have any size larger than that, Monkey Grip wins if you are using a weapon that increases in increments of d8's.

[tainsouvra]

although it does open up many new potential avenues for character ideas. Goofy ones, though.

[DrunkPrivateer]

Goofy ones, though.

The guy at one of the local gaming shops holding a tournament was telling my friends and I about a previous tournament where a guy built a Captain America character who had a magic shield with some enhancing crystals in a star on the shield (I think they came from the Magic Items Compendium).

[Thrawn183]

So does anyone want to take a stab at what a character using this build would end up looking like? I'm thinking you'd need a fighter to pull it off.

Shield Specialization/Shield Ward (PHB II) would get thrown in (for that tasty shield bonus to touch AC).
Since this guy seems like a fairly defensive themed character, I might try and throw in three of those Combat Form (PHB II) feats to get fast healing, some tanking stability, and bonuses to Will saves: Combat Focus, Combat Vigor, Combat Stability
Shield Slam (CWar) would be nice for initial charges to start battles off.
Divine Shield would be nice with some Paladin levels, I just don't like how you have to activate it. Would be situationally useful I think. Also kind of forces you into some pretty specific character ideas, I'd like this to be something that could fit pretty much any alignment or any DM's campaign.

As for Items I'd see if I could go with:
Adamantine Fullplate + Greater Iron Ward Diamond (DR 8/-, DR 3/- after the first 50)
I'd also like to stick on a crystal of lifedrinking but I'm not entirely certain how that interracts with using a shield as a weapon or with shield spikes... a RAW explanation for how this could work would be greatly appreciated.
Rod of Bodily Restoration to heal some ability damage each day. Eventually I'd get multiple crystals so that I could switch them out between battles and vastly increase the DR and self-healing.

Essentially I'm trying to think of a way to make a character that has the AC, DR, lifeleaching, stability and the saves to tank while still having enough damage to make mobs pay attention to him so that he's useful as a party member. Any suggestions on how all this would work in a clean, simple package?

[Indon]

Apparently Fax also found something somewhere along the way to do with multipliers... but I don't know much about that, so I'll let him describe that.


It has to do with lance charging in conjunction with a charging feat or somesuch, if I recall.

What I wonder, is if there's a feat to let one shield bash with a tower shield; that's even _more_ versatility because now you can gain cover!

[tainsouvra]

The guy at one of the local gaming shops holding a tournament was telling my friends and I about a previous tournament where a guy built a Captain America character who had a magic shield with some enhancing crystals in a star on the shield (I think they came from the Magic Items Compendium). That's nifty, but just for clarity "goofy" was a pun :smallsmile:

[Quietus]

So does anyone want to take a stab at what a character using this build would end up looking like? I'm thinking you'd need a fighter to pull it off.

I suggested one possibility before; A paladin of Heironeous, I believe. But let's see what I can do with six levels of Fighter.

Books used : Complete Warrior, PHB 1, PHB 2.
Race : Human

Level 1 : Weapon Focus (Shield Spikes), Weapon Focus (Armor spikes)
Level 2 : Two-weapon fighting
Level 3 : Power Attack
Level 4 : Shield Charge
Level 6 : Shield Slam, Blood-spiked charger

This would be a character who is very offensively minded, and loves nothing more than charging into the fray with two attacks, each getting double his strength bonus to damage. Feats to follow those can include Combat Expertise/Improved Trip to boost the Shield Charge, or Weapon Specialization (particularly on the armor spikes) to keep that damage up. I could very easily see him using an oversized spiked shield for the damage boost, and possible later levels might include Barbarian or weapon master if you can use 3.0

[Thrawn183]

Forgive me if this has been covered previously, but wouldn't you have to treat the armor spikes as an off-hand weapon?

With double weapons even though you're holding them with two hands you still end up treating them as a one handed and a light weapon (usually?).

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Forgive me if this has been covered previously, but wouldn't you have to treat the armor spikes as an off-hand weapon?

With double weapons even though you're holding them with two hands you still end up treating them as a one handed and a light weapon (usually?).

Yes, I think that is why he took TWF.:smallwink:

[Ossian]

I'm reminded of the "TWF Shield Bash" build for Fighters... especially fun if you get a DM that allows you to use quick draw for your shields as weapons.

like this?

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/7412/mechanderrobot1byenricojj3.jpg

or maybe more like this?

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/6214/gtot071jj3mo1.jpg

:smallbiggrin:

[Quietus]

Forgive me if this has been covered previously, but wouldn't you have to treat the armor spikes as an off-hand weapon?

With double weapons even though you're holding them with two hands you still end up treating them as a one handed and a light weapon (usually?).


Yes, I think that is why he took TWF.:smallwink:


Somewhat correct - yes, when TWF, I'd be using the armor spikes as off-hand. That's why I think a large sized shield weilded two handed would be better for this particular build, since you'd get 1.5x your strength mod on it, followed by your off-hand attack.

If that were all, however, I might have left the TWF out and started in on Shield Specialization and Shield Ward. I actually just realized that I failed to work Improved Shield Bash in there - so then if you're human you can pick that up at first, or anyone else can drop the TWF and instead go :

Level 1 : Weapon Focus (Spiked Shield), Improved Shield Bash
Level 2 : Weapon Focus (Armor Spikes)

Which will produce a two-handed shield user who occasionally brings his armor spikes to bear. The main reason I picked up TWF is because of one of Blood-Spiked Charger's options, which allows you to charge, make an attack with both your shield and armor spikes, and both attacks get double strength to damage. You take the normal penalties for TWF when you do this, however, so the TWF feat was in there to reduce those.