OOTS #1273 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[MinimanMidget]

How did Julia know the new ally was a she?

[Ruck]

Hee hee.

"What are they called again?"
"Certainly not something copyrighted, I can tell you that!"

[Resileaf]

Okay, I guess this has pretty much gone into "This is not really Julia" territory pretty quickly. She immediately knew the new ally was a 'she', and that "Um, well" at Roy mentionning her presence at his audition is clearly suspicious.

[ZhonLord]

How did Julia know the new ally was a she?
Theoretically Roy mentioned trying to find Serini earlier when they were still on the airship, during the off-panel exposition. But if he didn't.... Then yeah, that's interesting.

[MinimanMidget]

Okay, I guess this has pretty much gone into "This is not really Julia" territory pretty quickly. She immediately knew the new ally was a 'she', and that "Um, well" at Roy mentionning her presence at his audition is clearly suspicious.

Oh, wow. That hadn't even occurred to me, but as soon as you said it, it definitely feels like it's Eugene.

[ZhonLord]

Oh, wow. That hadn't even occurred to me, but as soon as you said it, it definitely feels like it's Eugene.

Not Eugene. Sabine. Remember, we haven't seen her new vessel the Directors mentioned yet. She could theoretically have possessed Julia and taken control of her body as a cover.

[KorvinStarmast]

Eugene is quite good with illusion, yes, but I'm going with this being Julia. I have doubts that the sword's magic (grandpa's sword) could be fooled as regards Julia versus Eugene.
The green glow indicates a connection to Roy's sword.
I don't think Sabine, for example, would be able to evoke that response from the sword.
As to the strip's final panel: "the jokes write themselves" ... except in this strip.
All exposition. Also a nice way to show off the improved art style, which is eye pleasing to me.

[MinimanMidget]

Not Eugene. Sabine. Remember, we haven't seen her new vessel the Directors mentioned yet. She could theoretically have possessed Julia and taken control of her body as a cover.

I don't know, I just went back and reread all the Julia dialogue, and there are quite a few things that suggest to me it could be Eugene. Or it could just be confirmation bias.

[Tubercular Ox]

So is there actually some misprint somewhere that created two weights of broadsword? Because I automatically remembered that one time I saw a boxing match when one boxer convinced another boxer to fight in 12 oz gloves and then they had to stop the tournament because regulations were 16 oz gloves, and then I realized that's a very niche joke and probably not the point.

[Ruck]

So is there actually some misprint somewhere that created two weights of broadsword? Because I automatically remembered that one time I saw a boxing match when one boxer convinced another boxer to fight in 12 oz gloves and then they had to stop the tournament because regulations were 16 oz gloves, and then I realized that's a very niche joke and probably not the point.

Roy says the lighter sword is a longsword.

[Beni-Kujaku]

The "she" is indeed troubling, but I don't see how it could be anyone except Julia, or maybe Eugene. She's spoken way more than 25 words, so it's not a regular Sending, Sabine doesn't have the ability to possess people, the IFCC wouldn't have hesitated this way when he talked about his exam ("I was four, dumbass!" would have been much more in character if someone wanted to impersonate her, and the IFCC is competent enough for that. Also why I don't think it's Eugene. He was never seen with the surprised side eyebrows). Redcloak would have immediately known the beholder's name. I don't see many more contenders, so I put my money on "it's really Julia, with some sort of informant. Maybe Roy himself last time they talked."

[Lord Torath]

Thanks, Rich!

I loved the last line "The jokes practically write themselves" combined with the strip title.

Regarding Julia's assumption of the gender of their new ally: Julia's a young woman. Why would she not assume their new ally is female?

[Gwynfrid]

Coming back to some rules-based jokes just like the really old days, I see. Refreshing and fun! Love it. Plus, Roy's thought process is interesting. He clearly doesn't overestimate his chances, a huge difference from his earlier encounters with Xykon.

[Peelee]

Coming back to some rules-based jokes just like the really old days, I see. Refreshing and fun! Love it. Plus, Roy's thought process is interesting. He clearly doesn't overestimate his chances, a huge difference from his earlier encounters with Xykon.

Being casually killed by Xykon probably affected that.

[Psyren]

I'm leaning towards it was just a continuity hiccup fixable by changing "she" to "he or she" or "they" - but I find both the "secretly Eugene" and "Julia is possessed" theories intriguing.



The green glow indicates a connection to Roy's sword.

Not necessarily, it also just happens to be the "personal aura color" for both Eugene and Julia's magic.

[Crusher]

Ok, I didn't read the last strip's thread so this has probably been mentioned there, but now with the context of this strip...

Looking at the last cartoon, Julia hears Roy's comment about her being about to call before she's there which is kind of weird. He says it before he sits down, she's not there yet (she probably appears the next panel when Roy sits and the panel zooms in on him), and there's no reason for her to be able to hear him. The sword provides a connection, but it not an cellphone (with Zoom or whatever). You can't just randomly hear family members near it. And she's also a little taken aback by the whole sword-connection-thing in an oddly alarmed sort of way. Plus, there is the connection but it only worked with Eugene after he died and to help him with manifesting. The comments and surprise and whatnot don't feel like Eugene, though, who would probably die (again. And again) rather than admit Roy knows more about any aspect of magic.

My money is that its Sabine who was stalking the party invisibly and is taking the appearance of Julia's projection while actually physically being there.

Edit - So, to sum up: Sabine is stalking the Order invisibly for reasons. She's cautious and keeping her distance because she knows who Serini is and Epic rogues are hard to stealth around. Roy is the first person to wander out by himself so she spies on him. He mentions Julia calling him, and Sabine decides on the spot to imitate Julia calling him. Which makes sense, Roy's a good candidate to spy on. He's probably the most attractive combination of "valuable knowledge and bad Sense Motive/overall perception" member of the party, plus for her specifically if things go badly he's probably the most pleasant member of the party to deal with. She and Haley *hate* each other, Belkar is a psychopath, Elan is useless, and if things go badly both V and Durkon have the potential to mess her up far more than Roy. Imitating someone's sibling is a high-risk endeavor but Sabine actually knows Julia pretty well, having been cooped up with her for a couple days in that warehouse. So Sabine gives it a shot, and I think she's rolling like a "7". She's not doing terribly, but once you start looking at the details you can see mistakes all over the place.

[Peelee]

Not necessarily, it also just happens to be the "personal aura color" for both Eugene and Julia's magic.

Yep (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html)..
I'm leaning towards it was just a continuity hiccup fixable by changing "she" to "he or she" or "they"
Or Julia could just default to assuming women, just like how people URL can default to assuming a gender.

[Ivrytwr]

Awww, Siblings for the win.
Thanks Giant.

[hamishspence]

Or Julia could just default to assuming women, just like how people URL can default to assuming a gender.

That makes sense as well. I've read a few novels with women protagonists who tend to use "she" for characters of unknown gender.

[Doug Lampert]

That makes sense as well. I've read a few novels with women protagonists who tend to use "she" for characters of unknown gender.
Yeah, there's definitely an epileptic tree growing somewhere arround here.

I mean, it could be true that this is someone other than Julia, but which third person pronoun choice to use for an unknown person is not really decisive information.

[woweedd]

Honestly, I think the sudden hesitance when talking about why she doesn't remember is a bigger clue then the pronouns, although that IS odd, yes.

[Crusher]

Honestly, I think the sudden hesitance when talking about why she doesn't remember is a bigger clue then the pronouns, although that IS odd, yes.

Yeah. 2nd to last panel is the point where Roy starts getting suspicious, imo. I suspect the next strip will be Roy carefully trying to figure out who it is, and end with a reveal.

[halfeye]

Yeah. 2nd to last panel is the point where Roy starts getting suspicious, imo. I suspect the next strip will be Roy carefully trying to figure out who it is, and end with a reveal.

Something happening would be a nice change.

[Quild]

How did Julia know the new ally was a she?


Okay, I guess this has pretty much gone into "This is not really Julia" territory pretty quickly. She immediately knew the new ally was a 'she', and that "Um, well" at Roy mentionning her presence at his audition is clearly suspicious.

Wait what?
Roy mentions "a bugbear ranger and her pet warg".
So when he says "she's new", Julia immediately thinks he's speaking about Oona.

It could be suspicious if Julia had immediately thought he was speaking about Minrah, but it's entirely normal that she thinks he speaks about Oona.

[Lord Torath]

Wait what?
Roy mentions "a bugbear ranger and her pet warg".
So when he says "she's new", Julia immediately thinks he's speaking about Oona.

It could be suspicious if Julia had immediately thought he was speaking about Minrah, but it's entirely normal that she thinks he speaks about Oona.No, they're talking about Panel 1.

[Murk]

Wait what?
Roy mentions "a bugbear ranger and her pet warg".
So when he says "she's new", Julia immediately thinks he's speaking about Oona.

It could be suspicious if Julia had immediately thought he was speaking about Minrah, but it's entirely normal that she thinks he speaks about Oona.

They mean the first panel, when Roy says "We found a new ally" and Julia replies "And you think she'll help you defeat Xykon?", i.e. Serini.

I had to look it up, too. Was just as confused as you.

[Reboot]

Hee hee.

"What are they called again?"
"Certainly not something copyrighted, I can tell you that!"
Hey, Sunny doesn't have the right number of eyes for a B-word, totally different thing!

[Fyraltari]

Okay, I'm really getting the feeling something's off with Julia too. In addition to what's been said, she also correctly guesses the gender of the "bugbear ranger" and her expression towards the end is one of fear, not confusion.
Edit: right "her warg" but the other point stands.

I've re-read their first conversation of this book and I am confident that one is really Julia (she knows the Greenhilts' family drama too well, including Eugene's opinion on gods and him and Roy being estranged, and she confidently corrects Roy about her age instead of rolling with it) but this time? Something feels amiss. I have no theory to explain it though.

[Syncrogti]

In the last panel, Roy mentions that his sister hadn't been making fun of him all these years for that, so she must have not remembered it for a very long time, otherwise she would have been using it against him long before now. But cool theory about this not being Julia.

[Zhorn]

Roy remarking on packing his 4.75 lb. longsword instead of his 5.25 lb. broadsword...
On the one hand, to a Fighter swinging a sword all day long, that half a pound is a big deal, and would make sense that an admission's test would want the heavier blade for demonstrations purposes... But that's the type of thinking Roy would be smart enough to jump to to conceal a test.
He took the family sword when he was leaving home to go to fighter's college. Even not being that big on martial combat, his sister would pick up on that detail....

Or we're reading too much into a minor joke, and there was just an assumed between comic conversation on catching her up on details that would have just been needlessly repeated exposition.

[woweedd]

In the last panel, Roy mentions that his sister hadn't been making fun of him all these years for that, so she must have not remembered it for a very long time, otherwise she would have been using it against him long before now. But cool theory about this not being Julia.

Yeah, but look at the facial expression. That's fear, not confusion, like she just got caught out on a lie. Combine with the "Um, well", like she's about to start making an excuse...It's odd. Plus, the joke is that she wouldn't have, because the jokes do not write themselves even a little.

[ZhonLord]

Or we're reading too much into a minor joke, and there was just an assumed between comic conversation on catching her up on details that would have just been needlessly repeated exposition.

D&D players? Overanalyzing and nitpicking little details and overthinking things? What black magic could you possibly be referring to?!

Sarcasm aside, I think it's plausible that Sabine is involved here, but "probable" will have to wait a couple more pages for additional evidence.

[Resileaf]

There is a difference between overanalyzing and acknowledging red flags. I'm not going to say "Oh, definitely not Julia", but I am going to say that while I didn't put much stock on those theories before, this time there is something distinctly off about Julia that deserves to be pointed out.

[aquablack]

He took the family sword when he was leaving home to go to fighter's college. Even not being that big on martial combat, his sister would pick up on that detail...

Oh, that seems fairly damning, I don't thing the giant would overlook a detail like that in favor of a so-so joke about sword sizes. The not-Julia theory seems fairly strong

[Crusher]

Here's a thought for anyone on the fence about this: Roy and Julia have now been talking for almost two full strips. How many times has Julia made fun of Roy or said something sarcastic during that time? Zero? That's like her defining characteristic. Prior to this, I don't think they've had a single non-snarky/mean interaction.

We don't know for sure who it is (I think its Sabine and I laid out the case for why earlier, but its hardly an air-tight case), but its not Julia.

[woweedd]

Here's a thought for anyone on the fence about this: Roy and Julia have now been talking for almost two full strips. How many times has Julia made fun of Roy or said something sarcastic during that time? Zero? That's like her defining characteristic. Prior to this, I don't think they've had a single non-snarky/mean interaction.

We don't know for sure who it is (I think its Sabine and I laid out the case for why earlier, but its hardly an air-tight case), but its not Julia.
...Ya know, i'm now realizing that the shared penchant for sarcasm between the two of them is also shared by Eugene. Huh.

[Ruck]

He took the family sword when he was leaving home to go to fighter's college. Even not being that big on martial combat, his sister would pick up on that detail....

Or we're reading too much into a minor joke, and there was just an assumed between comic conversation on catching her up on details that would have just been needlessly repeated exposition.


Oh, that seems fairly damning, I don't thing the giant would overlook a detail like that in favor of a so-so joke about sword sizes. The not-Julia theory seems fairly strong

Hmm. I wonder if this is Roy pulling a Terminator 2 "Wolfy" play because he sensed something was off.

I'm not totally sold on the theory yet, but it's more plausible than I expected it to be at first glance. (In particular, being reminded that Sabine interacted with Julia enough in Cliffport that she could probably impersonate her at least to some degree.)


...Ya know, i'm now realizing that the shared penchant for sarcasm between the two of them is also shared by Eugene. Huh.

From my observation, Eugene and Julia are probably the two most similar members of the Greenhilt family.

[Peelee]

Here's a thought for anyone on the fence about this: Roy and Julia have now been talking for almost two full strips. How many times has Julia made fun of Roy or said something sarcastic during that time? Zero? That's like her defining characteristic. Prior to this, I don't think they've had a single non-snarky/mean interaction.

We don't know for sure who it is (I think its Sabine and I laid out the case for why earlier, but its hardly an air-tight case), but its not Julia.

I was leaning towards her being an imposter but this argument clinched it for me. Especially since last strip Roy spelled out how dunking on each other is how they express love. She's not just not-dunking, she's not even throwing at the hoop at all. And I think that's what is clueing Roy in.

[faustin]

I'm puzzled with people suspecting Julia being Sabine in disguise...but not Roy's sword or any piece of his gear being actually a shapeshifted mimic.

Considering the previous strips, the later would be far more plausible.

[Thecommander236]

It sounds like Julia didn't go to the audition at all. I gotta say, I don't know what that could possibly mean in terms of advancing the story. What kinda family drama from a decade ago with Roy's mom could be so important at this point?

[Peelee]

I'm puzzled with people suspecting Julia being Sabine in disguise...but not Roy's sword or any piece of his gear being actually a shapeshifted mimic.

Considering the previous strips, the later would be far more plausible.

I don't see any reason to suspect his gear is a mimic. Although I also discount the idea that Julia is really Sabine.

[Thecommander236]

Oh, wow. That hadn't even occurred to me, but as soon as you said it, it definitely feels like it's Eugene.

Well, I'm not going to be a conspiracy theorist, but looking back to the last time they talked, Roy didn't mention a woman.

Though, I'm not sure Eugene would say a few of the things that Julia was saying. Like how she's 17 now, freaking out about "well, you are going to stop the world from going boom, right?", or about how "Eugene" would have better served not teaching Roy to question the gods and authority in general since it backfired on him.

Though Eugene always did pay more attention to Julia because she used magic, so maybe he might remember her birthday. I'm also not sure that Eugene would self-reflect about how he raised Roy.

[Peat]

I'm on the side of something being up with Julia because if nothing else, I don't think the strip really adds much to the story if there isn't.

[Fyraltari]

Well, I'm not going to be a conspiracy theorist, but looking back to the last time they talked, Roy didn't mention a woman.

Though, I'm not sure Eugene would say a few of the things that Julia was saying. Like how she's 17 now, freaking out about "well, you are going to stop the world from going boom, right?", or about how "Eugene" would have better served not teaching Roy to question the gods and authority in general since it backfired on him.

Though Eugene always did pay more attention to Julia because she used magic, so maybe he might remember her birthday. I'm also not sure that Eugene would self-reflect about how he raised Roy.

Pretty sure the first conversation is legit Julia-Roy talk.
But this one may not be.

I'm not convinced this could be Sabine as I don't see how she could appear like that and have this glow.

Some kind of illusion at work, probably.

Also, last thread people pointed out Bloodfeast looking at "Julia", so that's another point in favor of a trick going on.

[Doug Lampert]

Here's a thought for anyone on the fence about this: Roy and Julia have now been talking for almost two full strips. How many times has Julia made fun of Roy or said something sarcastic during that time? Zero? That's like her defining characteristic. Prior to this, I don't think they've had a single non-snarky/mean interaction.

We don't know for sure who it is (I think its Sabine and I laid out the case for why earlier, but its hardly an air-tight case), but its not Julia.


I was leaning towards her being an imposter but this argument clinched it for me. Especially since last strip Roy spelled out how dunking on each other is how they express love. She's not just not-dunking, she's not even throwing at the hoop at all. And I think that's what is clueing Roy in.

I was leaning against, but I'm inclined to agree, Crusher has a crushingly good argument. I'll conceed that it's probably not Julia.

[Lord Torath]

Also, last thread people pointed out Bloodfeast looking at "Julia", so that's another point in favor of a trick going on.Could just be Bloodfeast following Roy's gaze. He's not necessarily seeing her.

[Fyraltari]

Could just be Bloodfeast following Roy's gaze. He's not necessarily seeing her.
That's what I thought at the time too, but it could also be because he (she? it?) sees her there as well.

Also this exchange


Julia: (puzzled) How did you know I was about to call?
Roy: Dad always seems to know when I was alone. Since you're tapping into his Blood Oath, logically you should get a similar feeling.
Julia: Oh. Yeah, obviously that's what it was.
Roy: Really, because it's total nonsense I just made up off the top of my head to justify a lucky guess.
Julia: (nervous) Oh! I knew that! I mean- Why would you do that?!

Sounds less like someone who designed this spell and more like someone who isn't actually sure how it works, now that I think about it.

[Saint-Just]

I am betting on the fact that it is not Julia/possessed Julia. I am most concerned about the fact that he almost surely packed his family blade, real Julia wouldn't have missed that piece of information. I am not sure who exactly it is, whether it a projection or a shapeshift, etc. but I am sure that soon we will see some reveal as the result of this talk.

[Thecommander236]

Pretty sure the first conversation is legit Julia-Roy talk.
But this one may not be.

I'm not convinced this could be Sabine as I don't see how she could appear like that and have this glow.

Some kind of illusion at work, probably.

Also, last thread people pointed out Bloodfeast looking at "Julia", so that's another point in favor of a trick going on.

I mean, I suppose it is possible. Bloodfeast, not knowing how the spell worked, not teasing or mocking until the last panel, knowing it was a she...

It could be Sabine, but she would have to be using magic to glow and she would have to pop into existence and not fly in. The flapping of her wings or the tapping of her feet against the floor would give her away. I think Sabine knows about Serini especially if the IFCC knows.

Actually, I'm not sure if Sabine flies by flapping her wings along with magic or just magic. I don't know if her wings would make sound for certain.

But if it is Sabine, she would have to be able to get passed the portals, have been summoned directly into the tomb, or had someone spying on the area. I assume the IFCC can see past any magic and see into the Tomb just fine, but I don't know if they can just teleport themselves or someone else directly into the Tomb.

I think they need someone there to do a summoning ritual or cast a spell. Otherwise, why don't they just pop in at any time and just stab someone in the back?

That all being said, the last comic made me suspicious. If the Sword's bond doesn't give you a feeling that Roy is alone, why would Julia be fooled by that statement? She would know if she was getting a feeling that Roy was alone or not.

Granted, she could just be naive and believe Roy's gaslighting there. I know I've readily agreed with people that, had I thought about it for 2 seconds, I would know are lying. She is 17 and still believes basically everything that daddy taught her. Maybe she just assumed that Roy was right because "huh, it must be a subconscious feeling."

[Peelee]

Granted, she could just be naive and believe Roy's gaslighting there.

Not gaslighting.

[Daibhid C]

Here's a thought for anyone on the fence about this: Roy and Julia have now been talking for almost two full strips. How many times has Julia made fun of Roy or said something sarcastic during that time? Zero? That's like her defining characteristic. Prior to this, I don't think they've had a single non-snarky/mean interaction.

We don't know for sure who it is (I think its Sabine and I laid out the case for why earlier, but its hardly an air-tight case), but its not Julia.

I dunno. "You're usually going backwards?" last strip feels like a burn, and I think her deadpan "the jokes just write themselves" is meant to convey "this is fighter stuff I don't know or care about, you dweeb", even if Roy isn't picking up on it. It's more subdued than usual, but that might be just because this is a serious situation and she's taking it seriously. Or it might be that she's someone else; at the moment I'm ambivalent on the subject.

This is also an argument against it being Eugene, of course, since in that case the clue would be that the burns were crueller.


Yeah, but look at the facial expression. That's fear, not confusion, like she just got caught out on a lie. Combine with the "Um, well", like she's about to start making an excuse...It's odd.

I think she was probably going to make an excuse for not remembering even if she is the real Julia. Julia's blunt, especially when talking with Roy, but I don't think she's "I don't remember this, probably because I don't care about your time at fighter college even a little" blunt.

On the other hand, looking at it with this in mind, it does kind of feel like Roy is testing "how much of this do you remember, or even know you wouldn't remember?"

[faustin]

Every time Sabine has used a shapeshifting disguise she was adopted an original persona, rather than replacing somebody else. How good can her acting be, to pretend to be Julia in front of Roy?

[Fyraltari]

IJulia's blunt, especially when talking with Roy, but I don't think she's "I don't remember this, probably because I don't care about your time at fighter college even a little" blunt.

"I don't remember because I was four at the time, you dolt." sounds about blunt enough for Julia to me.

[dmc91356]

Every time Sabine has used a shapeshifting disguise she was adopted an original persona, rather than replacing somebody else. How good can her acting be, to pretend to be Julia in front of Roy?

I don' think this is true:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0134.html

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html

She was impersonating the actual guy.

[Lord Torath]

Also, Roy's talking about longsword vs broadsword. The Greenhilt Sword is a Greatsword, and not the one he brought for tryouts.

Edit:
I don' think this is true:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0134.html

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html

She was impersonating the actual guy.Yes, but not someone Roy had ever met before, let alone an immediate family member. Roy had never met the blacksmith (and never did).

[Agi Hammerthief]

the term they are looking for,
for the floaty eye creature,
is Bee Keeper, right?

[hroþila]

Edit:Yes, but not someone Roy had ever met before, let alone an immediate family member. Roy had never met the blacksmith (and never did).
I don't think this really matters, because even if Sabine had never impersonated a real person, it wouldn't rule her out. It could just be a first. We know impersonating Julia is well within her abilities, and that's all that matters (the only potential limitation we've seen so far [and one which wouldn't apply here anyway] is that she has never changed her skin tone, and even that could be a matter of preference rather than an actual limitation).

We also know Sabine has to find her way back into the story somehow, and if this is Julia she's definitely acting a bit weird. It could be simply that she's gotten serious since Roy told her what the stakes are, granted. I'm not convinced that this is Sabine, but it does make a lot of sense.

[Resileaf]

If we go by the theory that Roy is starting to suspect something is wrong, he seems to already think so in the first panel when he does ... before he answers Julia's question but may have just chalked it up to "Well my sister is the kind of person to assume the help we find is a woman". Then when she hesitates after his mention of her being there for his audition, he immediately gives her a way out to pretend he doesn't suspect anything. The next comic may show him trying to subtly manipulate her into giving him information about who she really is, or telepathically getting his team to scry her for answers while he keeps the conversation going.

[Peelee]

Sabine can't change her skin tone, I should point out.

[Resileaf]

Relatedly, the Julia we see doesn't have to be Sabine in disguise. It can easily be an illusion spell being cast by someone around the area.

[Fyraltari]

If we go by the theory that Roy is starting to suspect something is wrong, he seems to already think so in the first panel when he does ... before he answers Julia's question but may have just chalked it up to "Well my sister is the kind of person to assume the help we find is a woman". Then when she hesitates after his mention of her being there for his audition, he immediately gives her a way out to pretend he doesn't suspect anything. The next comic may show him trying to subtly manipulate her into giving him information about who she really is, or telepathically getting his team to scry her for answers while he keeps the conversation going.

I find the way he said "the halfling woman" a bit odd, myself. Maybe he's waiting to see if Julia will say "Serini" without him ever telling her what she's called.

[gbaji]

I suppose it's possible that someone, perhaps Sabine, is impersonating Julia, and it would be an interesting twist (and could introduce the IFCC's meddling in all of this, so it totally works from a storytelling pov), but I'm not sure how well supported it is.

First, off the pronoun. Sure. We've never seen Roy specifically tell Julia about Sernini. But We've never seen anyone mention her to Sabine either. We could just as well say "how did Sabine know the new ally was a she?", right? Or we can assume there is some off screen conversation that occurred which filled in that information.

The lack of snark. If anything this points away from Sabine. Read the strips from back in Cliffport. Julia was much more loud and obnoxious and, er... mouthy. If it was Sabine basing her acting and illusion off the Juliia she held captive backin Cliffport, she should have behaved that way. She's not even close. I'd say this just looks like Julia maturing and realizing that this is a serious situation, and the jokes and whatnot are taking a back seat.

Er. And there's also the costume change. Julia is wearing much more conservative clothing now than she was back then, and the same she was wearing on the boat. So we'd have to assume that was either a fake out then too, or Sabine/whomever spied on that conversation as well (and I'm not sure anyone but Roy can percieve the psuedo-sending she's using either, so... how?).

And that leads us to the biggest thing. Roy seems to be able to sense the connection. Back on the boat, he felt it like it was his father contacting him, but it was Julia instead. He certainly appears to be sensing the same thing during this conversation as well. I'm not sure it's possible for an illusion to fake that (even if you could, how would the person doing the illusion know what "feelings" to create an illusion of, since they could not have sensed it previously themselves).

Oh. And the blade thing. I'm pretty sure when doing some sort of exhibition, you don't generally use your own personal sharp/real weapons for that sort of thing, but a specific practice blade or something. Taking his sword to fighter college was a symobolic gesture. He presumably took lessons in a variety of different weapons in various classes along the way. Roy's just talking about a foolish equipment mistake he made. Like if you were doing a fencing test, and pulled out an epee instead of a foil or saber, or whatever you were supposed to be using for that particular session. The judges would look at you funny, you'd realize you were holding the wrong weapon, then run back to your bag and get the right one.


I agree that it would be an interesting and useful twist to the story, but at least right now, there's more stuff pointing against it than for it. You'd have to go back to the previous communication as well to include this as a fake, and that opens up even more inconsistencies than the one thing we have (the pronoun really). Everything else in this conversation is consistent with the previous one, so if this is a fake on those grounds, then that one would have to be as well, and that one included other things that were also very personal and things only Julia (or someone *really* familiar with their family) would know.

Still possible, but there's a lot pointing against it.

[Psychronia]

Let's just call Sunny "the ball of joy that must not be named."

I didn't even notice Julia assuming their new ally was female. What was most suspicious to me was her reaction to Roy's comment about auditions. Even then, I mostly wrote it off, but clearly, the other readers here are more used to spotting the thread than I am.

Would Julia assume a stranger is a woman until proven otherwise? Sure. Would she feel put on the stop for not remembering an important day for her brother? ...Maybe? It depends how much she cares about not upsetting him with something he really cares about, as opposed to general sibling teasing.

Could be two coincidences, could be a pattern.

[Fyraltari]

First, off the pronoun. Sure. We've never seen Roy specifically tell Julia about Sernini. But We've never seen anyone mention her to Sabine either. We could just as well say "how did Sabine know the new ally was a she?", right? Or we can assume there is some off screen conversation that occurred which filled in that information.
I am not convinced this is Sabine (as opposed to someone else), but it it is her, that's trivially easy to answer: her employers are the best-informed people in the whole comic. Sabine would have been briefed about Serini and would recognize her description.


The lack of snark. If anything this points away from Sabine. Read the strips from back in Cliffport. Julia was much more loud and obnoxious and, er... mouthy. If it was Sabine basing her acting and illusion off the Juliia she held captive backin Cliffport, she should have behaved that way. She's not even close. I'd say this just looks like Julia maturing and realizing that this is a serious situation, and the jokes and whatnot are taking a back seat.

Er. And there's also the costume change. Julia is wearing much more conservative clothing now than she was back then, and the same she was wearing on the boat. So we'd have to assume that was either a fake out then too, or Sabine/whomever spied on that conversation as well (and I'm not sure anyone but Roy can percieve the psuedo-sending she's using either, so... how?).
Both of those can be explained by the imposter spying on the first conversation. I don't know the rules of D&D very well, but I wouldn't be surprised if Epic rules don't allow for some sort of Uber-scrying that detects Sendings. We know the IFCC can straight up ignore cloister and see the invisible at least.


And that leads us to the biggest thing. Roy seems to be able to sense the connection. Back on the boat, he felt it like it was his father contacting him, but it was Julia instead. He certainly appears to be sensing the same thing during this conversation as well. I'm not sure it's possible for an illusion to fake that (even if you could, how would the person doing the illusion know what "feelings" to create an illusion of, since they could not have sensed it previously themselves).
I really doubt Roy can "sense" that. He's been wrong about his father listening to him before (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0162.html). It seems to me that he simply noticed someone was standing next to him the regular way : small noises and/or peripheral vision (the green glow would help for that, especially). And he guessed Eugene, because he didn't hear no-one coming and the green glow.


Oh. And the blade thing. I'm pretty sure when doing some sort of exhibition, you don't generally use your own personal sharp/real weapons for that sort of thing, but a specific practice blade or something. Taking his sword to fighter college was a symobolic gesture. He presumably took lessons in a variety of different weapons in various classes along the way. Roy's just talking about a foolish equipment mistake he made. Like if you were doing a fencing test, and pulled out an epee instead of a foil or saber, or whatever you were supposed to be using for that particular session. The judges would look at you funny, you'd realize you were holding the wrong weapon, then run back to your bag and get the right one.
But he talks about packing the wrong sword. As in he took it with him from home. For the admittance tryouts. Do you think the school requires every prospective student to bring the right equipment even before they're taken in?

[Resileaf]

You know what, I'm going to make my official (tm) theory.

The Julia we see is an illusion conjured by Qarr.

Qarr is able to teleport at will to and from the IFCC's offices, where they are shown to be constantly monitoring the situation so they can react to it at the right time. It's very possible once they see that the Order of the Stick has made contact with Serini that they would send Qarr to try to fool Roy into doing their bidding after their monitoring revealed that Roy's sister could get in contact with him (their fiendish Teevo probably has a setting for that). Because he isn't limited by Serini's defenses, the archfiends can easily send an imp agent right where he's needed and cause some trouble.

Now, importantly, Qarr is something of an idiot. He's a blabbermouth and tends to reveal things he didn't intend to because he constantly underestimates the intelligence of his foes. He's also very easily flustered when caught on a lie. With him not knowing a lot of Roy's relationship with Julia and their family life, he can easily get things wrong and be made to say things he didn't intend to reveal by trying to overcorrect and keep the deception going.

[Peelee]

I am not convinced this is Sabine (as opposed to someone else), but it it is her, that's trivially easy to answer: her employers are the best-informed people in the whole comic.

Where did you get this idea?

[Fyraltari]

Where did you get this idea?

They have a magic TV that can pierce Cloister, they know about the World-Within, unlike Thor and Odin and they like to keep tabs on (and if possible have pawns in) every party involved.

[homersolo]

This thread really encapsulates what I really appreciate about the Giant's writing. Every time "Julia" appeared, I took it as it was her and saw nothing suspicious. I read this comic and found something suspicious, but quickly dismissed it. Then I read this thread and went back and read the prior dialogue and now I'm like "Okay, clearly that is not Julia and is likely Dad again, how'd I miss that?"

[Peelee]

They have a magic TV that can pierce Cloister, they know about the World-Within, unlike Thor and Odin and they like to keep tabs on (and if possible have pawns in) every party involved.

Their magic TV that pierced through Cloister is on the same level of power as a deva, or any one who can scry and has gone to the afterlife's waiting room (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html). The world in the rift can be seen by anyone who looks into the rift, as Blackwing (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html) and friends (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html) can attest. Two things that are seemingly not difficult at all for any outsider with the ability to scry (possibly not even that high a bar, we just know that's sort of how Eugene did it). They also needed to have Sabine tell them about the rifts to start with (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html). There's nothing to indicate they know any more than the Order, right off the bat (and the Order likely knows more than them, since they have no way of knowing about the sheer number of worlds).

[Thecommander236]

Not gaslighting.

Thanks, I guess? The rest of my points still stand.

[Peelee]

Thanks, I guess? The rest of my points still stand.

Yes, which is why I didn't say any of them were not the case.

[Fyraltari]

Their magic TV that pierced through Cloister is on the same level of power as a deva, or any one who can scry and has gone to the afterlife's waiting room (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html). The world in the rift can be seen by anyone who looks into the rift, as Blackwing (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html) and friends (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html) can attest. Two things that are seemingly not difficult at all for any outsider with the ability to scry (possibly not even that high a bar, we just know that's sort of how Eugene did it).
Sure.They're the only Outsiders we know to have bothered, though.

They also needed to have Sabine tell them about the rifts to start with (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html). There's nothing to indicate they know any more than the Order, right off the bat (and the Order likely knows more than them, since they have no way of knowing about the sheer number of worlds).
That's true, they have no way of knowing about that. If only they had the phone number of someone who knew. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html)

For reals, though, of all the parties we are aware of (which is what I meant by "in the comic", my apologies if that wasn't clear) they are tied with the gods for "most able to gather information", are already show to have information the go don't and have more agents involved.

[Peelee]

Sure.They're the only Outsiders we know to have bothered, though.
Sure. That doesn't make them the most informed people, though. Most informed outsiders, maybe. That we know of.

That's true, they have no way of knowing about that. If only they had the phone number of someone who knew. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html)
The being who didn't tell them anything about it to start with, you mean?

Again, they're not even as well informed as a few humanoids.

[Doug Lampert]

Sabine can't change her skin tone, I should point out.

She has not yet done so, that we know of. As far as I know, there is no statement that she can't, any more than there was ever a statement that undead were always white letters on a black background prior to one not doing that.

Also, we know that at least one sheep in Scotland appears to be black from at least one direction.

[Fyraltari]

Sure. That doesn't make them the most informed people, though. Most informed outsiders, maybe. That we know of.
Who else would be?


The being who didn't tell them anything about it to start with, you mean?
Yeah. Now that they have a reason to ask, they might enquire. And she wouldn't be breaking any rule by telling them since they already know the Snarl exists. They bought her forgiveness in the form of "I O U dead dragons", they can feasibly buy information from her.


Again, they're not even as well informed as a few humanoids.

Really? Because the Order hardly know anything about them when the reverse isn't true.

Who would you guess first found out Serini was alive, Roy or the Directors?

[Frozenstep]

So, I was a little suspicious of the panel 1 exchange, as others have pointed out. But one thing I think could explain it is if Julia had been watching earlier, her spell might allow her to see where Roy is and then she can approach once he's relatively isolated.

But then she also seemed flustered about an event in the past? And she also seemed flustered at the start of the conversation...and the fact that the conversation started with Roy basically saying out loud his little sister was about to contact him...yeah, I call shenanigans.

[Peelee]

Yeah. Now that they have a reason to ask, they might enquire. And she wouldn't be breaking any rule by telling them since they already know the Snarl exists. They bought her forgiveness in the form of "I O U dead dragons", they can feasibly buy information from her.
They likely haven't bought any forgiveness until they follow through on that. They bought her not putting her proverbial foot up their asses with that IOU. As for getting extra knowledge from her, you're speculating.

Really? Because the Order hardly know anything about them when the reverse isn't true.
Aside from that V knows abiut them both through direct communications and Sabine, I thought you were talking about knowledge of the rifts and such. If you want to talk about just general knowledge about things that aren't the rifts, I'm sure there are some archmages out there who have quite the hefty amount of skill points shoved into knowledge scores.

But concerning the rifts, they don't even know as much as the Order. Unless you want to blindly speculate, of course. I'd imagine you'd be against that, and in any event it hardly proves your claim that they're the most well informed group. Which, again, is the Order, as far as we can tell.

[DavidSh]

If it turns out to be Roy's father impersonating his sister, and Roy doesn't catch on, I will be sorely disappointed. Roy knows them both far better than we do and shouldn't be easy to fool.

[Evil_Lamp_6]

Wouldn't the much simpler solution be that it wasn't actually Julia and Roy's mother at the event, but rather Eugene using an illusion to make Roy think that they were really there to support him? That just seems plausible to me that Eugene would do something like that to Roy. Edit: And within Eugene's character to deceive Roy in that exact manner.

[Stone of Light]

Wouldn't the much simpler solution be that it wasn't actually Julia and Roy's mother at the event, but rather Eugene using an illusion to make Roy think that they were really there to support him? That just seems plausible to me that Eugene would do something like that to Roy. Edit: And within Eugene's character to deceive Roy in that exact manner.


That only makes sense if, at some point, Eugene revealed to Roy that they were an illusion. Otherwise, it would have been a nice gesture to have made him feel as if his family were supporting him when they really weren't. Since Roy seems to believe they were really there, it's unlikely Eugene has told him they weren't and, therefore, unlikely to be one of his tricks.
His mom seems like the kind of person whom would have gone to the event to support him and, if his sister was as young as Roy seems to indicate (i.e. too young to remember the event), then she probably was brought along to be watched after.

[gbaji]

I am not convinced this is Sabine (as opposed to someone else), but it it is her, that's trivially easy to answer: her employers are the best-informed people in the whole comic. Sabine would have been briefed about Serini and would recognize her description.

Ok. Except that Roy didn't provide any description. He literally said: "We found a new ally today". That's it. If we restrict it to just what is written in the strip, then whomever is casting the illusion should have no reason to assume that this ally is Serini, or femaie. Or, we assume that there was more description in between the two strips, but then that would explain Julia's reaction as well.

Or, we can speculate that the IFCC has been watching the whole time, saw their encounter with Serini, and sent their operative to pretend to be Julia. Possible.


Both of those can be explained by the imposter spying on the first conversation. I don't know the rules of D&D very well, but I wouldn't be surprised if Epic rules don't allow for some sort of Uber-scrying that detects Sendings. We know the IFCC can straight up ignore cloister and see the invisible at least.

Yeah. Again, I suppose it's possible. But seeing invisible and intercepting a sending are two very very different things. The sending spell is basically a communication spell between a source and target. They are the only two who even perceive anything is going on (well, except others can see the side of the conversation if they're there, but not who they are talking to).

And yeah, to play your side, the communication in this case is specifically mimicing what Eugene did, which was sending a ghost form to talk to Roy, so we could speculate that Julia's spell also creates some sort of image effect that could maybe be percieved with the right senses and scrying. Maybe. We're in pure speculation mode at this point, but to be fair, the whole sending thing she'd doing is also totally homebrewed as well.



I really doubt Roy can "sense" that. He's been wrong about his father listening to him before (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0162.html). It seems to me that he simply noticed someone was standing next to him the regular way : small noises and/or peripheral vision (the green glow would help for that, especially). And he guessed Eugene, because he didn't hear no-one coming and the green glow.

Possible. But in both cases with Julia, he seemed to sense something in the area without seeing anything. He initially guessed it was his father, then discovered it was Julia. This time, he assumed she was around. Could be me reading into things, but it certainly seemed like he was sensing some sort of connection first, then seeing the person contact him. Interestingly enough, he didn't seem to get that same sense with Eugene though, so maybe he's just learned how to detect it better now? Who knows?

You'd think though, if you saw a green glow, you'd first turn to see what the glow was and *then* start talking. He doesn't seem to see anything all, but feels a presense or something. I guess I'm just not sure how you'd duplicate this with illusion. But sure, I could be totally misinterpreting that. Or we're reading way too much out of one pronoun.


But he talks about packing the wrong sword. As in he took it with him from home. For the admittance tryouts. Do you think the school requires every prospective student to bring the right equipment even before they're taken in?

No. Of course not. But that's the problem. For the tryouts, they probably have a set of stations where you are supposed to show your capabilities with different weapons to see if you qualify for the school. They presumably send the prospective student a list of weapons to bring to each of these tryouts, none of which would be "your ancestral greatsword" because they aren't going to assume every student has such a thing, right? So you would "pack" the approrpriate weapon (which you probably just bought) for the tryout(s). The expecation is that each student would be expected to obtain an appropriate weapon for each test, and he brought the wrong one.

That's what I saw that as. Sure. Could be a test, but if it is, it's a poor one. He should have picked something that can't be interpreted in any other way than him stating something that Julia should know is false and getting her to go along with it. This reads more like hiim relating something he knows his sister would not be inclined to care about detail-wise anyway, making a non-commital response not really unusual or suspicious. So no real information gained by him either way (if we assume that was his intent). There's a lot better false statements he could have used to try to trip her up than this.

I mean, sure. It's possible that they scryed on his previous conversation with Julia, and are now pretending to be here to gain info, but to what purpose? If they have the scrying possible to do all of that (and know the new ally is Serini), what do they gain from this? They already saw the entire conversation between them and Serini, including them going over an exhaustive list of resources and making various plans. And that's kind of the problem. The information gathering capabilities they'd need to have to pull off this scheme would remove the necessity of it in the first place.

All they could possibly achieve is risk giving themselves away with this. For what? The small chance that Roy will tell his sister something critical to their plans that he wont tell his party? That seems like a pretty low percentage gamble.


Yeah. Now that they have a reason to ask, they might enquire. And she wouldn't be breaking any rule by telling them since they already know the Snarl exists. They bought her forgiveness in the form of "I O U dead dragons", they can feasibly buy information from her.

Sure. But the gods have specific rules for dealing with outsiders and the snarl. Remember that they have to wipe the outsiders minds between worlds. Now, I happen to have a theory that the IFCC's actions are somehow related to them trying to avoid that cycle in some way (or, well, something else, but still related to the mind wipe thing), but it would seem unlikely that any deity would provide information on the Snarl to any Outsider. They seem to specifically want to avoid letting them know about how that works, for fear of exactly what the IFCC may actually be trying to do (whatever that is).

I'm sure the IFCC have other means to learn things about the snarl though, so it's somewhat of a moot point IMO.

[WanderingMist]

I really doubt Roy can "sense" that. He's been wrong about his father listening to him before (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0162.html). It seems to me that he simply noticed someone was standing next to him the regular way : small noises and/or peripheral vision (the green glow would help for that, especially). And he guessed Eugene, because he didn't hear no-one coming and the green glow.


His sword was broken at that point and so was its connection to the Blood Oath until it was reforged as stated by Eugene during the Azure City trial (I think it was then).

[Windscion]

While I think there is something wrong with "Julia", my suspicion started at panel 5. She leans back when Roy stands up. That, to me, reads like someone capable of physically contacting Roy and just naturally trying to avoid it. Granted, Julia might respond the same way, since these reactions happen on autopilot.
Edit to add: I tend to assume that Julia would not try to avoid Roy because she would expect him to avoid stumbling into her.

[danielxcutter]

While I think there is something wrong with "Julia", my suspicion started at panel 5. She leans back when Roy stands up. That, to me, reads like someone capable of physically contacting Roy and just naturally trying to avoid it. Granted, Julia might respond the same way, since these reactions happen on autopilot.
Edit to add: I tend to assume that Julia would not try to avoid Roy because she would expect him to avoid stumbling into her.

And last time Sabine met Roy, he beat her up threw her out a window. So… yeah.

[JonahFalcon]

Doesn't Serini have troll allies?

[Shining Wrath]

Re-reading #1272, I think Julia feels "off" there, too.
I'm voting for not-Julia, therefore someone who wants information on the order and knows approximately where they are.
In our next strip, we may very well see Xykon threatening Blackwing with annihilation if the familiar doesn't help him pull this off.

[enh]

Or Julia could just default to assuming women, just like how people URL can default to assuming a gender.

Is that a new initialism that I'm not hip enough to have encountered? Or just a subconscious typo for IRL because you do a lot of web development? :-)

[Fyraltari]

They likely haven't bought any forgiveness until they follow through on that. They bought her not putting her proverbial foot up their asses with that IOU.
So what? It's proof enough that she is willing to barter with them, even when infuriated.

As for getting extra knowledge from her, you're speculating.
Yes, and? You said:



(and the Order likely knows more than them, since they have no way of knowing about the sheer number of worlds).
I provided one way to know that that we now for a fact they have access to, Tiamat. Whether or not they used it does not change that it exists.

[Peelee]Aside from that V knows abiut them both through direct communications and Sabine, I thought you were talking about knowledge of the rifts and such.[/quote]
I was talking about knowing of Serini:



First, off the pronoun. Sure. We've never seen Roy specifically tell Julia about Sernini. But We've never seen anyone mention her to Sabine either. We could just as well say "how did Sabine know the new ally was a she?", right? Or we can assume there is some off screen conversation that occurred which filled in that information.I am not convinced this is Sabine (as opposed to someone else), but it it is her, that's trivially easy to answer: her employers are the best-informed people in the whole comic. Sabine would have been briefed about Serini and would recognize her description.



If you want to talk about just general knowledge about things that aren't the rifts, I'm sure there are some archmages out there who have quite the hefty amount of skill points shoved into knowledge scores.
Detail: I said "in the comic" as in actual characters. Hypothetical archmages who never appear and don't matter to the story... don't matter to the story.

Main point: having seventy-two ranks in agriculture may help you tell the age of a potato, but that's not relevant at all to the plot. The Directors are the most knowledgeable characters about what's going on right now. Team Evil is completely unaware of their existence, of Hel's failed plot, of the Vector Legion or the paladins. The ORder don't know about TE's internal struggles, neither knew Serini was aliv (and the Order only just found out). No one at the North Pole is aware that the sanarl is reaching through Girard's Rift, etc.
The IFCC keeps tabs on every player of this game, to the point that they had Vaarsuvius's psychological profile mapped out (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) (they also look up V's family and master). They have extremely potent scrying abilities and they are thorough.

Of all the characters in the comic, they are the most aware of the various threads of the plot.




Ok. Except that Roy didn't provide any description. He literally said: "We found a new ally today". That's it. If we restrict it to just what is written in the strip, then whomever is casting the illusion should have no reason to assume that this ally is Serini, or femaie. Or, we assume that there was more description in between the two strips, but then that would explain Julia's reaction as well.
They found a new ally, in the North pole, where the only two features are the bubgear village Team Evil took over and Serini's compound. I'm not a betting man, but "the ally is Serini" seems like the reasonable guess.


You'd think though, if you saw a green glow, you'd first turn to see what the glow was and *then* start talking. He doesn't seem to see anything all, but feels a presense or something. I guess I'm just not sure how you'd duplicate this with illusion. But sure, I could be totally misinterpreting that. Or we're reading way too much out of one pronoun.
He doesn't like his father and was reading, not looking up seems a normal reaction to me. Also what he said "Are you going to say something, Dad, or just lurk around watching me?" implies Julia stood silently for a little while waiting for him to acknowledge her presence.


No. Of course not. But that's the problem. For the tryouts, they probably have a set of stations where you are supposed to show your capabilities with different weapons to see if you qualify for the school. They presumably send the prospective student a list of weapons to bring to each of these tryouts, none of which would be "your ancestral greatsword" because they aren't going to assume every student has such a thing, right? So you would "pack" the approrpriate weapon (which you probably just bought) for the tryout(s). The expecation is that each student would be expected to obtain an appropriate weapon for each test, and he brought the wrong one.
Wouldn't it be simpler for the school to hand out the required weapons to each candidate for the time of their demonstration? =


I mean, sure. It's possible that they scryed on his previous conversation with Julia, and are now pretending to be here to gain info, but to what purpose? If they have the scrying possible to do all of that (and know the new ally is Serini), what do they gain from this? They already saw the entire conversation between them and Serini, including them going over an exhaustive list of resources and making various plans. And that's kind of the problem. The information gathering capabilities they'd need to have to pull off this scheme would remove the necessity of it in the first place.

All they could possibly achieve is risk giving themselves away with this. For what? The small chance that Roy will tell his sister something critical to their plans that he wont tell his party? That seems like a pretty low percentage gamble.
Hulia offered to give Roy tactical advice during her conversation on the airship. Impersonating her would be a convenient way to nudge the Order into a particular direction. Like trying to ambush Team Evil with Sunny in a way that would backfire, for example.


Sure. But the gods have specific rules for dealing with outsiders and the snarl. Remember that they have to wipe the outsiders minds between worlds. Now, I happen to have a theory that the IFCC's actions are somehow related to them trying to avoid that cycle in some way (or, well, something else, but still related to the mind wipe thing), but it would seem unlikely that any deity would provide information on the Snarl to any Outsider. They seem to specifically want to avoid letting them know about how that works, for fear of exactly what the IFCC may actually be trying to do (whatever that is).
Thor said the Outsiders "[go] a bit nuts" if their memories aren't wiped "every time [the gods] remake the world". Seems to me that it's not knowledge of the Snarl that's issue, but witnessing the destruction and reconstruction of world. Sabine doesn't seem any worse for learning about it.


His sword was broken at that point and so was its connection to the Blood Oath until it was reforged as stated by Eugene during the Azure City trial (I think it was then).

Yes, and he didn't feel any different, he assumed Eugene was ignoring him when he couldn't talk to him. If he could "sense" the connection, he'd have noticed.

Edit:

Doesn't Serini have troll allies?

Yes.* In some place that isn't the North Pole. So their ability to help is rather limited. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1227.html)

*If "they healed me when I was dying that one time counts as "ally" anyway.

[gbaji]

While I think there is something wrong with "Julia", my suspicion started at panel 5. She leans back when Roy stands up. That, to me, reads like someone capable of physically contacting Roy and just naturally trying to avoid it. Granted, Julia might respond the same way, since these reactions happen on autopilot.

I think it's the latter. She reacts almost identically in panel 5 here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1273.html), as she does in panel 7 in the previous strip (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1272.html) and how she does in panel 10 in the previous contact on the ship (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1193.html).

Which puts us back to either this is just a normal reaction and just how she moves, or we have to further speculate that the conversation on the ship was *also* made by someone using illusion to mess with Roy, which spins us into even more complicated territory. Or, the illusion is mimicing her reactions, and that's what this is, which... um... invalidates it as something we should interpret as proof that it's an illusion in the first place.

Also, can't illusions just be visual and audio anyway? In fact, it's usually easier (ie: lower level) to make illusions that don't have physical substance. So, if your intention is to use an illusion to fool someone into thinking you were engaged in some form of ghostly communication, wouldn't you just use a lower level illusion spell and not need to avoid contact? I mean, there's zero reason for the illusion to be cast on a physical person sitting there. You hang out invisibly and cast the illusion. If your target can see the invisbility, they can probably detect the illusion anyway, right?

I suppose we could fall back to Sabine (or someone else) using shapechange, but then we also fall back to all of the previously mentioned problems that were discussed and which led us to the whole "it could be someone using illusion" line of thinking in the first place.


And yeah. For the record, I'm still sticking with "Roy can sense Julia's sending spell before she actually appears" bit. It's hard to inteprete panels 9 and 10 here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1191.html) as anything other than Roy sensing something. The fact that he again seems to know exactly when his sister is about to contact him in 1272 supports that. If anything it seems like Roy now specifically knows what his sisters sending spell feels like when it first makes contact and is messing with her a bit. Heck. It's entirely possible he stepped outside specifically because he could feel it "ringing" or something. And that's not something that could be accomplished with just shapechange (and you'd need invisibility anyway just to "appear", right?).

None of this absolutely precludes someone else hijacking the connection or something, but I'm still left wondering "to what purpose"?

[Peelee]

Is that a new initialism that I'm not hip enough to have encountered? Or just a subconscious typo for IRL because you do a lot of web development? :-)
Usually things like that are going to be autocorrect "fixing" things for me.

So what? It's proof enough that she is willing to barter with them, even when infuriated.

Yes, and? You said:



I provided one way to know that that we now for a fact they have access to, Tiamat. Whether or not they used it does not change that it exists.
Fine. The Order can do the same with Thor through Durkon and we know Thor is actively amenable to telling them these things so even in fantasy "access is the same thing as as getting" line of thinking they still don't know more than the Order. Better? Because whatever way you want to slice it they're not "the most informed" people in the comic.

[gbs5009]

Put me in the "imposter" camp. I suspect that Roy just told a whopper there, and is gauging whether she's building on the false details he added.

It could be the audition was something that she mocked him about for *years*, or it was a major family issue that he specifically took the family sword (as noted in 113) that she would never forget. Whatever it was, I think he knows Julia should know it.

[gbaji]

They found a new ally, in the North pole, where the only two features are the bubgear village Team Evil took over and Serini's compound. I'm not a betting man, but "the ally is Serini" seems like the reasonable guess.

Wouldn't it also be a reasonable guess for the Julia to make as well? For exactly the same reasons? Can't we reasonably assume that when Julia offered to help advise him in 1193, then we skip to Belkar and Minrah, then she apparently knows a bunch of stuff here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1195.html) we can assume that Roy filled her in on things? Or do we speculate that she was an imposter then because she knew Redcloak's name despite Roy never telling her?

One of these explanations (Roy filled her in on stuff so she could advise him like she asked) checks all the boxes without adding anything else. All others require fairly massive speculation. Again. That doesn't make them untrue, but I'm going to stick with the simpliest explanation.



He doesn't like his father and was reading, not looking up seems a normal reaction to me. Also what he said "Are you going to say something, Dad, or just lurk around watching me?" implies Julia stood silently for a little while waiting for him to acknowledge her presence.

She literally appears 5 feet directly in front of him. If she was visible the whole time it's hard to imagine that he would not have glanced up first. I interpreted "lurking" as "lurking invisibly", like his father had a few times before appearing in the past. I've always read that as Roy sensing what he thought was his dad's presence, and letting him know that this time he figured out he was there before he just popped in and spooked him or something like in the past. Only this time, it was his sister. It was clear to me that he's able to sense the sending, and that it feels like his past conversations with Eugene.

I could totally be wrong, but it seems odd that twice in a row now, Roy has talked to thin air seeming to know that someone was there, with no visual at all, if we're supposed to intepret that as "she was visible the whole time, we're just not showing it on screen, and instead showing a panel or two of Roy talking to her first". I mean, it works the first time because we get the whole "OMG, it's Julia" gag. But why do it a second time? Once again, we get Roy talking to thin air about being contacted via the blood oath right when she's there contacting him via the blood oath. Seems reasonable to assume that he can sense it *before* she actually appears.



Wouldn't it be simpler for the school to hand out the required weapons to each candidate for the time of their demonstration? =

Maybe? He said "my longsword" vs "my broadsword", suggesting possession (but not necessarily ownership). He could have either purchased the weapons as a condition for application and brought the wrong weapon to that days test, or was handed a set of weapons and (again) brought the wrong one to that days test. Heck. He could have kept the rest of them in a locker in the building right next to where the tests were, and he's just talking about which one he accidentally brought out to the field for testing.

The word choice "brought you with her" and not "with us" suggests that Roy was not living with his family at the time (or at least didn't travel with them to where the audition was). Which further suggests that whatever weapons he had, and however he had them, he packed them and brought them to wherever the audition was, from wherever he was (and that wasn't his family home). The "joke" is supposed to be Roy seeing a significant difference in two weapons which most people would have a hard time telling apart (especially a wizard like Julia).

And again, missing the forest for the trees here. If this is supposed to be a trick, it's a poor one. He should have said something about some event that a) Julia was old enough to have reasonably remembered, and b) was clearly incorrect and Julia should know was incorrect. Instead, he made some incredibly nuanced comment about the minor differences about a subject Julia doesn't know much about involving an event she should not reasonably be able to remember well anyway. So... eh. Not seeing it.



Hulia offered to give Roy tactical advice during her conversation on the airship. Impersonating her would be a convenient way to nudge the Order into a particular direction. Like trying to ambush Team Evil with Sunny in a way that would backfire, for example.

I suppose that's possible. Heck. Anything is technically possible. Let's not forget that if we're assuming the IFCC is involved, they seem to want the gate to be destroyed and the gods to destroy the world. So, I suppose if Julia gives him advice that seems like it would increase the risk that the gate is destroyed rather than falling into team Evils hands (while avoiding the Order actually saving the gate and sealing the rifts again), then that possibility may increase.

Again though, let's not forget that all of this is predicated on the pronoun. I still maintain we're waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay ahead of our skis on this one.



Thor said the Outsiders "[go] a bit nuts" if their memories aren't wiped "every time [the gods] remake the world". Seems to me that it's not knowledge of the Snarl that's issue, but witnessing the destruction and reconstruction of world. Sabine doesn't seem any worse for learning about it.

Them going a bit nuts could also refer to them doing things like what the IFCC is doing (ie: not the jobs they're created to do). Right? Perhaps the Gods do this specifically so that the Outsiders just continue performing the tasks they are supposed to do for each world they create rather than going off trying to change things on a more cosmic level. Awareness that the world they are in is not the first (or the millionth) and the Gods basically re-write them to fit each new world each time would be a huge deal and might cause a massive conflict.

I guess this depends on what knowledge about the snarl we're speculating that Tiamat may have told them if they asked. Again though, I get the distinct impression that what the IFCC is doing is not something any of the gods actually want, so it seems unlikely that Tiamat would help them by providing them information about the snarl. I get that she knows stuff about the snarl, and they want to know stuff about the snarl. But what's missing is "why would she tell them what they want to know"? From her perspective, they have no reason to know that information. Well, no good reasons (and good not being about alignment here, but more of a "keep the cosmos running as it should" type of thing).

[gbs5009]

And again, missing the forest for the trees here. If this is supposed to be a trick, it's a poor one. He should have said something about some event that a) Julia was old enough to have reasonably remembered, and b) was clearly incorrect and Julia should know was incorrect. Instead, he made some incredibly nuanced comment about the minor differences about a subject Julia doesn't know much about involving an event she should not reasonably be able to remember well anyway. So... eh. Not seeing it.



Roy's pretty sharp. If he *does* suspect an imposter, it might occur to him to try and catch them in a lie *without them knowing their cover is blown*. I think that's why he drilled on the topic... it sounds banal on the outside, but it's actually something that has a huge amount of signifcance to his family, and maybe even to Julia in particular.

Throwing out the "nuanced sword comment" then serves to reassure the imposter that it wasn't **important** that they didn't know the details... they can believe it's just a thing Roy's weirdly into. At that point, Roy's already onto them... the bait was saying "it makes sense you don't remember", and seeing if she objected.

[KorvinStarmast]

And last time Sabine met Roy, he beat her up threw her out a window. So… yeah. What a fun date!
Makes you see why she liked Nale more than Roy ... :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

Possibilities so far:

1) Nothing is wrong. Panel 1 is a typo/assumption by Julia, while Panel 11 is her not actually remembering the event and flustered because it might hurt Roy's feelings.

2) It is Julia, but something is wrong with her (e.g. possession/Sabine in disguise.) Panel 1's information would come from the possessor's handler, likely the IFCC keeping an eye on V, while Panel 11 was the interloper almost being caught.

3) It's Eugene pretending to be Julia. (Creepy.) Panel 1 would come from information Eugene gained scrying out of boredom, Panel 11 was again "Julia" almost being caught.

I was originally in camp 1, but now I do think Panel 11 seems a bit overly panicky for something so mild. So put me in camp 2.

(Did I miss a possibility?)

[KorvinStarmast]

(Did I miss a possibility?) Yes. We will agonize over this for the next three weeks. More ideas will crop up as time goes on, and we don't even know what they are yet.

[Peelee]

Possibilities so far:

1) Nothing is wrong. Panel 1 is a typo/assumption by Julia, while Panel 11 is her not actually remembering the event and flustered because it might hurt Roy's feelings.

2) It is Julia, but something is wrong with her (e.g. possession/Sabine in disguise.) Panel 1's information would come from the possessor's handler, likely the IFCC keeping an eye on V, while Panel 11 was the interloper almost being caught.

3) It's Eugene pretending to be Julia. (Creepy.) Panel 1 would come from information Eugene gained scrying out of boredom, Panel 11 was again "Julia" almost being caught.

I was originally in camp 1, but now I do think Panel 11 seems a bit overly panicky for something so mild. So put me in camp 2.

(Did I miss a possibility?)

I've gotta say, the "it's Eugene" theory seems really weird to me. Because.... why?!? It's not like Roy told Eugene to never talk to him again. Their last talk ended about as amicably as we've ever seen.

[BriarHobbit]

Seems like the relationship between Roy and his sister is evolving and improving if only a littlte.

[gatemansgc]

Hee hee.

"What are they called again?"
"Certainly not something copyrighted, I can tell you that!"

perfectly dodged, i'm still loving it.

[JonahFalcon]

Why am I getting "SHEPARD WAS INDOCTRINATED!!!!" vibes, which persisted even after BioWare conclusively showed that was not the case and flatly said, "No. He was never indoctrinated."

[Alex Warlorn]

Would Sunny's anti-magic field work under an invisibility? Or any kind of visual illusion?
Because if they hide where Sunny really was... and projected an illusion of him where the beam could still be in a split second reaction but far enough away that the real Sunny isn't harmed. It could screw over the villains.

The moment Sunny uses his anti-magic beam, he'll become the No. 1 target on the battlefield, and the heroes having to spend just as many resources to protect him. But if they conceal his real location on the battlefield, and project an illusionary decoy, it'll leave the villains using up her anti-magical firepower for a few rounds, giving the heroes time to tip the fight in their favor.

[Alex Warlorn]

When did Roy tell his sister the order's new teammate was a she? Was she just guessing?

[danielxcutter]

When did Roy tell his sister the order's new teammate was a she? Was she just guessing?

Honestly, that part definitely could be. I'd say if anything it's the other parts that might put that in a different light. People assume someone is of the same gender of them a lot, I know I certainly do.

So it could go either way, really.

[gbaji]

Roy's pretty sharp. If he *does* suspect an imposter, it might occur to him to try and catch them in a lie *without them knowing their cover is blown*. I think that's why he drilled on the topic... it sounds banal on the outside, but it's actually something that has a huge amount of signifcance to his family, and maybe even to Julia in particular.

Throwing out the "nuanced sword comment" then serves to reassure the imposter that it wasn't **important** that they didn't know the details... they can believe it's just a thing Roy's weirdly into. At that point, Roy's already onto them... the bait was saying "it makes sense you don't remember", and seeing if she objected.

Sure. Could be. She was six at the time, but it's entirely possible that she noticed, or it was mentioned repeatedly at family gatherings, and perhaps she'd really teased him about it all the time, etc, and that's the "test". That she absolutely should recall this event, but doesn't say anything to correct him when he says she was young and probably doesn't remember. Heck. Maybe Roy has told this exact story a hundred times, and she always responds the same way or something, so he's judging her on that (a criteria we can't really know about). I just find that to be an odd test though (again absent the previous speculation or something similar). It's generally better if you're going to test someone to say something that is false, and get them to agree, then the other way around. If I claim someone did or said something that they didn't, they're pretty likely to respond to correct me. If I say they didn't do something, and they did, they may very well just go along anyway, or let the subject drop. They may think that *I* don't remember corrrectly, and certainly aren't going to correct me by insisting that they really did behave badlly or something, right?

Could be a test though. I mean, it would make an interesting twist. So yeah, not totally discounting the theory, just putting it on the "possible, but not probable list".

[Murk]

(Did I miss a possibility?)

I do agree Julia is not her usual self, but why does that have to mean she's being possessed/impersonated?

Can't she just be distracted? Feeling guilty about something? Trying to hide something?
Presumably she contacted Roy with a reason and so far she hasn't said what that reason is.

[WanderingMist]

Julia's definitely acting weird, but if this was a fake, how in the world would they know that Julia appeared using a green aura when contacting Roy through the blood oath? I think possession is the most likely answer rather than her being a disguise. Or just freaking out because she's suddenly got a lot to worry about that she never thought about before Roy told her.

[hroþila]

Julia's definitely acting weird, but if this was a fake, how in the world would they know that Julia appeared using a green aura when contacting Roy through the blood oath? I think possession is the most likely answer rather than her being a disguise.
Well there's this 'vessel' that Sabine was supposed to get...

Hmmm...

[Peelee]

Well there's this 'vessel' that Sabine was supposed to get...

Hmmm...

I was thinking that yesterday, actually.

[danielxcutter]

Honestly I'm in the "possible, but let's see" camp, so let's try not to shoot down the opposition too hard like people did with my prediction about Hilgya turning up, m'kay?

[Tzardok]

I agree with danielxcutter.

[Barstro]

This being Sabine or someone else physically there explains Bloodfeast’s reaction.

[Terbovus]

Its nice after a long time away from the forums to see how people are keeping themselves occupied between updates and wonderful to see such continued active engagement with OOTs which my kids -aged 11 and 13 - have grown up with and loved to the extent that all our hard copy books have fallen apart and been taped together again multiple times. In fact, from the pile of loose pages on my son's desk its time to do again.

On the unnameable abomination, I'm delighted that my eldest (who started playing D&D last year) will now get the joke, as he does so many others as he re-reads it.

On the current theories, put me down for 'possible but lets see' :smallsmile:

[Fish]

Let’s not get too far ahead of ourselves with the Sabine theory. I agree that she’s out there somewhere and is going to try to interfere, but let’s hold our horses a minute.

Whoever is doing the impersonation of Julia, if it is one, already knows about Roy’s “fighter school.” They mention it unbidden. But only then do they not know enough of the details of his audition.

This points more toward Eugene than toward Sabine. Absent father, scornful of his son’s choice, didn’t pay attention to Roy’s progress or achievements; and Roy has no reason to like or trust what he says, so he shows up (as he has done before), but in disguise. Illusionist. Spying from the afterlife. That’s pretty easy to explain.

The Sabine explanation has to cover why she knows about fighter school but not the audition; how she possessed Julia in order to make use of the sword’s link; and how she knows how to impersonate Julia’s relationship with Roy in the first place. Not impossible, but Occam’s Razor…

[Peelee]

Let’s not get too far ahead of ourselves with the Sabine theory. I agree that she’s out there somewhere and is going to try to interfere, but let’s hold our horses a minute.

Whoever is doing the impersonation of Julia, if it is one, already knows about Roy’s “fighter school.” They mention it unbidden. But only then do they not know enough of the details of his audition.

This points more toward Eugene than toward Sabine. Absent father, scornful of his son’s choice, didn’t pay attention to Roy’s progress or achievements; and Roy has no reason to like or trust what he says, so he shows up (as he has done before), but in disguise. Illusionist. Spying from the afterlife. That’s pretty easy to explain.

The Sabine explanation has to cover why she knows about fighter school but not the audition; how she possessed Julia in order to make use of the sword’s link; and how she knows how to impersonate Julia’s relationship with Roy in the first place. Not impossible, but Occam’s Razor…

By Occams Razor, it's actually Julia, since Eugene doesn't need to pretend to be anyone. He could just materialize as Eugene. Super easy, barely an inconvenience.

[theNater]

Here's a thought for anyone on the fence about this: Roy and Julia have now been talking for almost two full strips. How many times has Julia made fun of Roy or said something sarcastic during that time? Zero? That's like her defining characteristic. Prior to this, I don't think they've had a single non-snarky/mean interaction.
Julia's tone in these two strips is consistent with her tone in the previous conversation from the point where Roy tells her the world may be destroyed (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1193.html). The remainder of that conversation, coincidentally, is about two strips worth.

[Resileaf]

If there is anything that makes me say it's not Eugene, it's that narratively it would be pointless. Eugene has no reason to pretend to be Julia, he can easily talk to Roy as himself. Pretending to be her just makes him look like a creep for no benefit outside of getting a slightly less hostile Roy to talk to (which is a result he could get by being slightly less of an ass himself).

[hroþila]

Let’s not get too far ahead of ourselves with the Sabine theory. I agree that she’s out there somewhere and is going to try to interfere, but let’s hold our horses a minute.
My horses are already galloping through the great plains of JuliaIsPossessedByTheArchfiends and it's pointless to try to rein them in, thankyouverymuch

[faustin]

Well there's this 'vessel' that Sabine was supposed to get...

Hmmm...

And among all vessels, Sabine chose a girl whom she, alongside the Linear Guild, kidnapped and threatened in order to lure her brother and his party into a trap.

I cannot thing in a single good reason for Julia being willing to associate with that succubus.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I'm 99.9999% sure Sabine isn't possessing Julia, as that's not a thing succubi can do. She could likely impersonate a specific, known person (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0793.html), but a sibling is too much for her to pull off for long.

A 3.5e fighter is proficient in 54 different types of weapons; he may have brought two to fighter college.

It also makes sense that the entrance exams would involve a regulated version of the most common weapon for fantasy adventurers. (the differences between a broadsword and a "longsword" are too subtle for D&D mechanics.)

Assuming Roy auditioned for fighter college at eighteen, Julia would have been six at the time; plenty young to be ignoring important things.
I find the way he said "the halfling woman" a bit odd, myself. Maybe he's waiting to see if Julia will say "Serini" without him ever telling her what she's called.That strikes me as a genre thing; the type of thing you'd say only if your a character in a fantasy novel.

Also, probably Julia (or Sabine) would probably think that "the halfling woman" is Minrah, not the "new ally", being as Minrah was the last person mentioned before that sentence.

[Doug Lampert]

Yes. We will agonize over this for the next three weeks. More ideas will crop up as time goes on, and we don't even know what they are yet.

Your comprehensive list of all possibilities should almost always include (N+1) Something else that I haven't thought of. Because you are (probably) not omnicient.

[Peelee]

Your comprehensive list of all possibilities should almost always include (N+1) Something else that I haven't thought of. Because you are (probably) not omnicient.

I cannot overstate how much I love the "probably" in there. Making sure to cover yourself, just like any good professor.

[Fyraltari]

I mean, even if you were omniscient, you couldn't be sure, because it might turn out that there still was something you didn't know you didn't know and you were only mostiscient.

[Barstro]

Based on Bloodfeast’s awareness, I am still convinced that this is something more substantial than Julia (possessed or not). I was under the impression that others could not see her through that type of communication.

I’m going with someone (Sabine?) physically there using illusion. Or maybe one of Serini’s pets that can shift or cast. Or Serini herself, since she is “asleep” in the other room.

[Syncrogti]

OK so let's say that Julia is Sabine/some other villain, what will Roy do? outright slay her?

[Barstro]

,what will Roy do?

Something very different from what he intends to do.

[hroþila]

And among all vessels, Sabine chose a girl whom she, alongside the Linear Guild, kidnapped and threatened in order to lure her brother and his party into a trap.

I cannot thing in a single good reason for Julia being willing to associate with that succubus.
Oh I don't think there would be anything voluntary about being a vessel in this scenario

[Resileaf]

OK so let's say that Julia is Sabine/some other villain, what will Roy do? outright slay her?

I suspect that Roy would mentally contact his team (the telepathy spell is still active) and instruct them to try to divine who is actually talking to him and from where.

[gbs5009]

OK so let's say that Julia is Sabine/some other villain, what will Roy do? outright slay her?

Idk, she looks pretty incoporeal, regardless of who she is, or her mechanism of communication. Roy can't assume that waving a sword at her is going to do anything.

Probably makes more sense to play along, not give out sensitive information, and hash out with his casters what exactly could be going on after the call? Maybe have Durkon do a traditional sending to Julia to see how *she* reacts (or if she's even contactable).

[dmc91356]

Quick question about the references to Bloodfeast's reactions. I'm not really seeing much in the way of reactions, but couldn't any such thing be explained by the fact that Roy is apparently talking to thin air and/or directly at Bloodfeast, as Julia (or, if we are going with someone else pretending to be her, that person) is invisible to everyone but Roy?

I mean, I don't think anyone else in OOTS has been able to see Eugene or Julia in these visits but I have not sat down and analyzed whether anyone else even had the opportunity.

[Fish]

By Occams Razor, it's actually Julia, since Eugene doesn't need to pretend to be anyone. He could just materialize as Eugene. Super easy, barely an inconvenience.
Yes, absolutely. There is not enough evidence to conclude there is an impersonation at all. I said that above: “impersonation, if there is one.”

[Windscion]

Quick question about the references to Bloodfeast's reactions. I'm not really seeing much in the way of reactions, but couldn't any such thing be explained by the fact that Roy is apparently talking to thin air and/or directly at Bloodfeast, as Julia (or, if we are going with someone else pretending to be her, that person) is invisible to everyone but Roy?

Given that Bloodfeast turns his (?) head when Roy does in panel 4, I agree that Bloodfeast-is-seeing-this is not a strong argument. Also previous strip: panel 5, but not panel 6. But that is likely BF taking time to adjust to Roy.

[Crusher]

OK so let's say that Julia is Sabine/some other villain, what will Roy do? outright slay her?

Totally depends on what Roy thinks she's up to. Nale's dead and V probably shared that Sabine's got a different job now and has been willing to share useful info. Roy and Sabine have fought before, but Roy's by far the best person to deal with in the Order for Sabine (other than maybe Minrah who Sabine probably doesn't know at all). Roy's usually reasonable and she has various reasons to dislike/be wary of everyone else.

I suspect the next strip will end with Roy getting Sabine to reveal herself somehow, after which they negotiate a deal.

Here, just to be thorough I'll just repost part of what I wrote before:

So, to sum up: Sabine is stalking the Order invisibly for reasons. She's cautious and keeping her distance because she knows who Serini is and Epic rogues are hard to stealth around. Roy is the first person to wander out by himself so she spies on him. He mentions Julia calling him, and Sabine decides on the spot to imitate Julia calling him.

Which makes sense, Roy's a good candidate to spy on. He's probably the most attractive combination of "valuable knowledge and bad Sense Motive/overall perception" member of the party, plus for her specifically if things go badly he's probably the most pleasant member of the party to deal with. She and Haley *hate* each other, Belkar is a psychopath, Elan is useless, and if things go badly both V and Durkon have the potential to mess her up far more than Roy. Imitating someone's sibling is a high-risk endeavor but Sabine actually knows Julia pretty well, having been cooped up with her for a couple days in that warehouse.

So Sabine gives it a shot, and I think she's rolling like a "7". She's not doing terribly, but once you start looking at the details you can see mistakes all over the place.

[gbaji]

Well there's this 'vessel' that Sabine was supposed to get...

Yeah. I also went down the same mental path. The vessel could be Julia, and she's being possessed (by some method the IFCC are using, not just Sabine), and.... <insert something here>? That's where I kinda lose it though. We don't know enough about the IFCC and their goals/plan to fill in those blanks.

Possession is actually a much better explanation than shapeshifting IMO. Everything else works the same, so the whole issue of how or whether Roy detected her doesn't matter. It *is* her, just that she's being controlled in some way.


Julia's tone in these two strips is consistent with her tone in the previous conversation from the point where Roy tells her the world may be destroyed (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1193.html). The remainder of that conversation, coincidentally, is about two strips worth.

Yeah. The odd behavior can also just be Julia, maturing from what we saw in Cliffport, having such a huge deal dropped on her. She's rapidly having to transition from younger sister who ribs on her older brother for being a big dumb fighter who leads an adventuring group of losers, to realizing that her brother is actually responsible for saving the world. That's a huge weight and realization. And yeah, along the way realizing that her brother isn't just a big dumb guy for wanting to be a fighter instead of following their father into wizardry. And maybe even accepting that there's more involved to being a fighter than just learning how to swing a sword.

A good portion of her reaction could just be her own embarassment of her previous treatment of him.


It also makes sense that the entrance exams would involve a regulated version of the most common weapon for fantasy adventurers. (the differences between a broadsword and a "longsword" are too subtle for D&D mechanics.)

That was my take on it as well. It's a distinction most people couldn't make, but Roy does. That, combined with the previous strip having Roy point out that Julia doesn't know everything about magic (even a spell she, herself, created) might just be about driving home to Julia that there are different types of knowledge and one isn't inherently superior to the other. She's realizing maybe that just as wizards can talk babble about minor differences in spell components and how they affect the final outcome, a fighter can talk about minor differences in weapons the exact same way.

Dunno. What other people are seeing as Julia not behaving as herself, I see as Julia being confronted with some big realities and having to suddenly grow up a whole lot in a short time as a result.

Or yeah. Could be possession.



Quick question about the references to Bloodfeast's reactions. I'm not really seeing much in the way of reactions, but couldn't any such thing be explained by the fact that Roy is apparently talking to thin air and/or directly at Bloodfeast, as Julia (or, if we are going with someone else pretending to be her, that person) is invisible to everyone but Roy?

That's how I saw it too. Ever noticed that dogs and cats (ok, usually dogs cause cat's just pretend not to care), will look in the direction you are looking sometimes? Particularly if you are say talking to someone on a phone via an earpiece, but then looking in a direction, the dog will look in the same direction wondering who you are talking to. Their pattern is to expect that if you are speaking and looking in a direction, there should be someone there, and it confuses them when there isn't. That's what I think Bloodfeast is doing. It comes off more as curiousity than anything else. He also moves "behind" Roy (puts Roy between him and the spot where Julia is). Which we could interpret as him detecting Julia (or someone) there, or just that he clearly realizes Roy is talking to and interacting with something in that spot, but he can't see anything there, so he's going to do the animal behavior thing of moving away from potential danger.

Or maybe he does sense something there. Hard to say. We get only snapshots of movement with the panels, so we can't really know what goes on "between frames" so to speak. If this were video, we'd know if Bloodfeast turned and looked at Julia right as she appeared, or if he reacted to Roy turning and speaking in that direction to see what was there, saw nothing, and then moved away.



So, to sum up: Sabine is stalking the Order invisibly for reasons. She's cautious and keeping her distance because she knows who Serini is and Epic rogues are hard to stealth around. Roy is the first person to wander out by himself so she spies on him. He mentions Julia calling him, and Sabine decides on the spot to imitate Julia calling him.


I could see Sabine maybe wanting to contact the order secretly or something. But the problem with this scenario is that if this really was an "on the fly" thing, how did she know to disquise herself exactly as Julia appeared to Roy during the previous sending? Why is she not acting like Julia did back in Cliffport? Sabine, on her own, would not have the ability to act like Julia without immediately giving up the game to Roy.

She would have to have resources to have updated information to do this. Which means the IFCC. Which leads us right back to: Why use Sabine for this in the first place? Possessing her, or forcing her to act for them, is much easier, fits all the facts, and doesn't require the risk of having a physical person there to potentially give up the game. They would use other means to do this, so they wouldln't need to involve Sabine in it at all.

We're left having to speculate a bunch of other stuff which isn't currently supported by the information we have to make this work, and just for the purpose of "making the theory work". Again. It's "possible", but there's no reason to think this is what's going on anymore than a dozen other possibilities, and most of those have more support for them.

[danielxcutter]

I'm 99.9999% sure Sabine isn't possessing Julia, as that's not a thing succubi can do. She could likely impersonate a specific, known person (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0793.html), but a sibling is too much for her to pull off for long.

A 3.5e fighter is proficient in 54 different types of weapons; he may have brought two to fighter college.

It also makes sense that the entrance exams would involve a regulated version of the most common weapon for fantasy adventurers. (the differences between a broadsword and a "longsword" are too subtle for D&D mechanics.)

Assuming Roy auditioned for fighter college at eighteen, Julia would have been six at the time; plenty young to be ignoring important things.That strikes me as a genre thing; the type of thing you'd say only if your a character in a fantasy novel.

Also, probably Julia (or Sabine) would probably think that "the halfling woman" is Minrah, not the "new ally", being as Minrah was the last person mentioned before that sentence.

Actually there are rules for fiends being able to do that in one of the Fiendish Codexes, and Sabine has some unusual powers for a succubus anyways.

[PontificatusRex]

Given that Bloodfeast turns his (?) head when Roy does in panel 4, I agree that Bloodfeast-is-seeing-this is not a strong argument. Also previous strip: panel 5, but not panel 6. But that is likely BF taking time to adjust to Roy.

Yeah, going back and looking it seems very clear that Bloodfeast is looking wherever Roy is looking, not specifically at Julia. Who I'm pretty sure is Julia.

[WanderingMist]

That's how I saw it too. Ever noticed that dogs and cats (ok, usually dogs cause cat's just pretend not to care), will look in the direction you are looking sometimes? Particularly if you are say talking to someone on a phone via an earpiece, but then looking in a direction, the dog will look in the same direction wondering who you are talking to. Their pattern is to expect that if you are speaking and looking in a direction, there should be someone there, and it confuses them when there isn't. That's what I think Bloodfeast is doing. It comes off more as curiousity than anything else. He also moves "behind" Roy (puts Roy between him and the spot where Julia is). Which we could interpret as him detecting Julia (or someone) there, or just that he clearly realizes Roy is talking to and interacting with something in that spot, but he can't see anything there, so he's going to do the animal behavior thing of moving away from potential danger.

Or maybe he does sense something there. Hard to say. We get only snapshots of movement with the panels, so we can't really know what goes on "between frames" so to speak. If this were video, we'd know if Bloodfeast turned and looked at Julia right as she appeared, or if he reacted to Roy turning and speaking in that direction to see what was there, saw nothing, and then moved away.


If I remember correctly, dogs are one of the few animals that will look where you are pointing rather than at you when you point at something.

[Larsaan]

Something about the way she talks about "that fighter school of yours" is pushing me in the direction of Eugene. Sabine knows from personal experience that Roy is neither stupid or a pushover, so she wouldn't underestimate him (except to play a role, I suppose). Plus, he's an established illusionist, and since he already knows about the Scribblers he'd reasonably guess that Serini was the new ally.

As for motives, I'm not sure. However, we do know that he's fine with letting the gods blow up the world since it would automatically end the Blood Oath. Roy's concession to Serini that he'd be willing to let Xykon unlive if it meant saving the world might have him spooked, if he knows about it, since that's the exact opposite of what he wants. It could potentially drive him to sabotage the Order, just to be on the safe side.

It's not a safe bet by any means, but I'd stake a bag of chips on it. No more than that, though.

[gbaji]

If I remember correctly, dogs are one of the few animals that will look where you are pointing rather than at you when you point at something.

With pointing specfically, yeah. Most other animals will just look at your finger. A lot of animals, however, make note of what other people (and animals) are looking at. They will absolutely follow the eyes of others around them and look in that direction. It's an instinctual thing. Usually, when other animals around them perk up and look in a direction, it's because they sense danger there, so they look in that direction too. It's not just eyes though, it's body language they are picking up on, and human communication body language often triggers this behavior.

Don't even get me started on the odd behavior of horses though. Probably the most OCD animals in existence.

[Duramora]

Ok- y'all are putting way more thought into this than I can handle. Eugene, Julia, or Sabine- it doesn't matter in the end: Theres a Lich and a Goblin High Priest to get XP from: lets concentrate on the Big Issues.....


Although: if they let Xykon get the gate and open it, and drag the Snarl through- how much more XP IS the Snarl Anyway???? Just curious, eh???

[Reboot]

Although: if they let Xykon get the gate and open it, and drag the Snarl through- how much more XP IS the Snarl Anyway???? Just curious, eh???
Zero. Just as you can't get XP from something much lower level than you (e.g., Xykon's surprise/delight thst some of the tomb's monsters were strong enough to give him XP, Darth V not getting XP), you can't get XP from something much *higher* level than you. Anything that can one-shot gods is going to be a 0 XP zone.


And among all vessels, Sabine chose a girl whom she, alongside the Linear Guild, kidnapped and threatened in order to lure her brother and his party into a trap.

I cannot thing in a single good reason for Julia being willing to associate with that succubus.
And I cannot thing in [sic] a single good reason why the fiends would ask politely.

[Corian]

By Occams Razor, it's actually Julia, since Eugene doesn't need to pretend to be anyone. He could just materialize as Eugene. Super easy, barely an inconvenience.

Eugene... he's in the previous book, isn't he? Wow, wow, wow.

(enjoying the Ryan George callout!)

[hungrycrow]

And I cannot thing in [sic] a single good reason why the fiends would ask politely.

Tempting people with too-good-to-be-true deals is kind of their schtick. If they could just possess people by force, I feel like they would have done that with V.

[danielxcutter]

Because that would be the Archfiends themselves, acting in violation of their contract. Sabine or any of their underlings possessing someone else for something not even directly involved with the contract on the other hand? Definitely.

[Reboot]

Plus, whatever "the vessel" is or entails, the IFCC aren't using their own power - OR Sabine's power, for that matter - in association with it. They're using some recently acquired and as-yet untested (by them, at least) Artifact.

[brian 333]

I had to reread a few times, but I now see the possibility of Eugene impersonating Julia with a bogus story about a new spell that is too powerful for its spell slot. In his arrogance, Eugene could believe Roy wouldn't want to read the Forum analysis of the improved spell, so he'd believe what he's told.
I don't see Sabine as Julia. There's no inuendo or repressed tensions shown, and Sabine is a personification of such behaviors. I don't think she could resist trying something weird.

I'm still not sold on the idea. My first read was that Julia was beginning to mature a little since her kidnapping and learning that her world might end literally tomorrow. That's what I'm going with, until something better comes along.

[gbs5009]

Oooh, I thought of one more, thing, although it's a bit of a reach. In 364, Julia specifically mentioned the school was warded against Eugene contacting her. I wonder if that means that she *couldn't* actually be hijacking the oathspirit link from there?

Obviously, we don't know enough about how the ward (or the spell) functions for it to be conclusive, but it certainly could be a reason for Roy to start being a little suspicious once he's had some time to mull things over after her first call.

Also, that conversation was Sabine's opportunity to learn a bit about the Greenhilt family dynamics, although in the first sending conversation on the airship, the person Roy was talking to seemed to have more detail than anybody but Julia (or Eugene) would have, and don't see any reason for Eugene to impersonate her to Roy.

Maybe I'm just overthinking it, but I *do* so love overthinking.

[WanderingMist]

Zero. Just as you can't get XP from something much lower level than you (e.g., Xykon's surprise/delight thst some of the tomb's monsters were strong enough to give him XP, Darth V not getting XP), you can't get XP from something much *higher* level than you. Anything that can one-shot gods is going to be a 0 XP zone.


Isn't the "no XP from too high level creatures" from the game assuming you didn't do it under your own power (which Darth V definitely did not)? I feel like if players managed it under their own power, somehow, they would deserve the XP.

[danielxcutter]

I think there is a suggestion for DMs to ad-hoc it, but that's it.

[No good @ names]

Can I just say thanks to this thread for the theories because otherwise I completely missed the point of this one and was thinking “bland filler, really? We know this already, geez.”

[faustin]

Comic: "Roy and Julia having a tender sibling moment before the final fight."

Readers: "Julia had been clearly possessed by Eugene, impersonated by Sabine, or impersonated by Sabine who is currently being possessed by Eugene."

I'm just happy Rich doesn't read this section anymore. Otherwise he wouldn't know if laughing or facepalming.

[Duramora]

I'm just happy Rich doesn't read this section anymore. Otherwise he wouldn't know if laughing or facepalming.


Why can't he do both???

[OvisCaedo]

There's not really much tender about the moment, though. Most of the strip is a frank discussion about potential tactics. Only the last row is personal at all, though I guess "oh wow you actually think about things" might be as tender as it gets with Julia and Roy.

I think people mainly just want it to be something more complicated here because updates have been... A bit spaced out over the holidays, while also often feeling like those updates aren't moving things forward very much. This is two comics just kind of recapping the situation to Julia.

[KorvinStarmast]

Tempting people with too-good-to-be-true deals is kind of their schtick. If they could just possess people by force, I feel like they would have done that with V. Julia is going to a wizard school. The last successful temptation was on a wizard ... yes, there are substantial differences in the two personalities, but Julia has learned from Roy that this adventuring thing has, as its stakes, the existence of everything in the world. She may have had a moment of awareness similar to the one I had when I first learned of how big the nuke arsenals were (Cold War era) and what that meant if they were all used during the MAD period. To say that it was a sobering thought was an understatement. I was in high school. If what this strip shows is that Julia has matured, that's a bit of character development (long overdue) and well placed.

Plus, whatever "the vessel" is or entails, the IFCC aren't using their own power - OR Sabine's power, for that matter - in association with it. They're using some recently acquired and as-yet untested (by them, at least) Artifact. Since Sabine's last time in Cliffport, I'd need a bit of back story/exposition on how she got ahold of the artifact, how she once again infiltrated Cliffport magic school, and how she duped Julia into donning the artifact ... hmmm ... but if all of that happened, Rich re treading the "evil persons go after Roy through his vulnerable sibling" seems very unlikely at this point in how he crafts the story. His writing skill has grown over the years, and I don't think he'll feel the need to retread that trope. It's been done. He will do something else, I think.

Why can't he do both??? Indeed.

This is two comics just kind of recapping the situation to Julia. We have had any number of comic pairs between Roy and Eugene where it was mostly conversation ... that until you read them in sequence as part of the book feel a lot like filler.
One example is 1046 and 1047.

[Doug Lampert]

Zero. Just as you can't get XP from something much lower level than you (e.g., Xykon's surprise/delight thst some of the tomb's monsters were strong enough to give him XP, Darth V not getting XP), you can't get XP from something much *higher* level than you. Anything that can one-shot gods is going to be a 0 XP zone.


Isn't the "no XP from too high level creatures" from the game assuming you didn't do it under your own power (which Darth V definitely did not)? I feel like if players managed it under their own power, somehow, they would deserve the XP.

The rules never say that too high is 0 XP. They say that too far off your level has no set award. A dash in the D&D 3.5 rules is not the same as a 0, and the XP award for far off-level is a dash.

Too low is a dash, because baring special circumstances it's no challenge and shouldn't really give XP, but there may be a reason for an award.

Too high is a dash because the very fact that you beat something that much tougher than you means that there's something going on that gives you enough of an edge that the XP award needs to be adjusted down some, and they want the GM to think about that prior to just handing everyone a silly large amount of XP rather than just looking at a table and awarding Shelby the goblin massive XP for an anchient silver dragon.

[PontificatusRex]

Can I just say thanks to this thread for the theories because otherwise I completely missed the point of this one and was thinking “bland filler, really? We know this already, geez.”

I think the REAL secret of this strip is that the last line and the title are somebody commenting about writer's block...

[Quizatzhaderac]

I think this is one of those strips that work much better in the book than on the web. Doubly so so forumites like us.

We've basically already had 90% of the comic in the forum discussions, but someone reading the book will have had only a few minutes since reading these events to have thought about them and might think that Sunny could curb stomp Xykon.

[Mike Havran]

Oh, Julia's speech pattern is definitely off in panel 10. Something is wrong here. Also, this:


I'm on the side of something being up with Julia because if nothing else, I don't think the strip really adds much to the story if there isn't.
Really, a strip filled with rambling reiteration of events from a few strips ago, inconsequential reactions from Julia and a sword joke would be extremely redundant if there wasn't something lurking beneath.

[PontificatusRex]

Really, a strip filled with rambling reiteration of events from a few strips ago, inconsequential reactions from Julia and a sword joke would be extremely redundant if there wasn't something lurking beneath.

Oh, something is lurking beneath all right. See my comment two posts above...



We've basically already had 90% of the comic in the forum discussions, but someone reading the book will have had only a few minutes since reading these event to have though about them and might think that Sunny could curb stomp Xykon.

I agree - "Managing reader expectations" is something RB does once in a while.

That said, I think Roy is downplaying what a massive new asset Sunny could be. It's the same thing as his sidelining Minrah - he tends to be stuck in his ways and doesn't adjust quickly to changes, Durkula being another of the most obvious examples.

[skim172]

The biggest revelation from this strip is that the Stickverse uses Imperial weights and measures.

This means that the British Empire, at one time in history, established colonies somewhere in the Stickverse. Those guys just went everywhere.

[Fish]

The only thing I can see in favor of this being Sabine impersonating Julia ...

... Sabine spent a couple of weeks with Julia when she was captured in, where was it, Cliffport? Julia tells the police "I was captured two weeks ago."

So Sabine could have picked up some knowledge about Roy, but not enough to know everything in great detail. And Roy's assumption about the connection being a manifestation of the sword's family connection could just be wrong.

I don't think this answers all the objections. It still seems like a stretch to me. I'm just blue-skying here.

[Vikenlugaid]

I'm just happy Rich doesn't read this section anymore. Otherwise he wouldn't know if laughing or facepalming.

He doesn't read this? I am losing time in this forum for nothing?

[gbaji]

You have to remember that Rich formats the strip for eventual publication in book form. So a lot of the strips that feel slow or unnecessary to folks reading online in real time will feel a lot more natural in the final format. And frankly, they would feel very rushed if it was just action/action/action sequences with quick resolutions. You have to take time for character interactions along the way, or the action/resolution sequences will not have the same value/weight.

[danielxcutter]

Oh, something is lurking beneath all right. See my comment two posts above...



I agree - "Managing reader expectations" is something RB does once in a while.

That said, I think Roy is downplaying what a massive new asset Sunny could be. It's the same thing as his sidelining Minrah - he tends to be stuck in his ways and doesn't adjust quickly to changes, Durkula being another of the most obvious examples.

I mean he's not wrong about Sunny at least - Sunny isn't going to be a simple "we win" button for the Order even without the IFCC and stuff.

[No good @ names]

Edit: OopS



I think the REAL secret of this strip is that the last line and the title are somebody commenting about writer's block...

Yeah I feel like the difficulty of wrapping up a complex story is not properly appreciated despite many many examples of great series falling as a result of it. I don’t envy Rich right now.

Just off the top of my head
-(A) Game of Thrones/A Song of Fire and Ice
-Battlestar Galatica
-Burn Notice
-Eragon
-Neon Genesis Evangelion (the remakes didn’t help)
-Bleach



The biggest revelation from this strip is that the Stickverse uses Imperial weights and measures.

This means that the British Empire, at one time in history, established colonies somewhere in the Stickverse. Those guys just went everywhere.

I think using pounds and feet gives a properly archaic feel to a quasi-medieval fantasy setting.


or the action/resolution sequences will not have the same value/weight.
Metric values and weights, right? :P

[Peelee]

The biggest revelation from this strip is that the Stickverse uses Imperial weights and measures.
Notwithstanding that D&D uses feet and pounds for measurements and it's pretty easy to assume the same measurement scales were used for Stickworld, WotC being an American company and Rich Burlew being an American author make it more likely the system is American Customary Units and not Imperial.

[danielxcutter]

And of course, Americans can't stand foreign rulers. I regret nothing.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Tragic ending for MitD could still be a good story, which is the point. Rich choosing to put in the best story he can write, instead of being constrained by genre or excessive sentimentality.

... you realise you are answering this in a different forum thread from where it was posted, right?


You have to remember that Rich formats the strip for eventual publication in book form. So a lot of the strips that feel slow or unnecessary to folks reading online in real time will feel a lot more natural in the final format. And frankly, they would feel very rushed if it was just action/action/action sequences with quick resolutions. You have to take time for character interactions along the way, or the action/resolution sequences will not have the same value/weight.

OK, but if I'm reading this page in a book, then it makes even less sense to spend a page recaping pages I read approximately two minutes earlier. Unless there is something else going on, this is a really weird filler, more reminiscent of when an anime show is running out of money/source material and needs to throw together a clip show to fill time. And yes, characters getting breathing room and development is nice, but a) there ain't much of that going on (unless Julia really has mellowed since we last saw her... what, three days prior in OotS time?) and 2) they could be talking about anything else that doesn't come over as telling the audience what they just saw.

GW

[No good @ names]

... you realise you are answering this in a different forum thread from where it was posted, right?

No, no I did not. :smallredface: Thank you

[Potatopeelerkin]

I am a huge sucker for sibling relationships in, well, anything. Look at 'em, getting along.

Although all of y'all suggesting this isn't really Julia are really making me a little paranoid.

[CountDVB]

Looking at all of these comments with Julia, I’m wondering if Ruch saw Glass Onion…

I’m guessing more her slip-up was because she dis not witness her brother because she was sneaking off to so something dumb

[faustin]

I mean he's not wrong about Sunny at least - Sunny isn't going to be a simple "we win" button for the Order even without the IFCC and stuff.

I wonder if Serini will even allow her son getting involved in a battle against the likes of Xykon and Redcloak.

[danielxcutter]

I wonder if Serini will even allow her son getting involved in a battle against the likes of Xykon and Redcloak.

Nitpick; we don't know Sunny's gender, and beholders reproduce asexually so that might not even apply.

[KorvinStarmast]

And of course, Americans can't stand foreign rulers. I regret nothing. I see what you did there. :smallsmile: *golf clap*

[danielxcutter]

I didn't come up with it, to be fair, but I don't have a problem with spreading around, either.

[bunsen_h]

Possibilities so far:

1) Nothing is wrong. Panel 1 is a typo/assumption by Julia, while Panel 11 is her not actually remembering the event and flustered because it might hurt Roy's feelings.

2) It is Julia, but something is wrong with her (e.g. possession/Sabine in disguise.) Panel 1's information would come from the possessor's handler, likely the IFCC keeping an eye on V, while Panel 11 was the interloper almost being caught.

3) It's Eugene pretending to be Julia. (Creepy.) Panel 1 would come from information Eugene gained scrying out of boredom, Panel 11 was again "Julia" almost being caught.

I was originally in camp 1, but now I do think Panel 11 seems a bit overly panicky for something so mild. So put me in camp 2.

(Did I miss a possibility?)

Julia might be embarrassed to admit a cognitive lapse to a lunk-head fighter, per prejudices inherited from Eugene. Even with the "only 4 years old" justification.


If I remember correctly, dogs are one of the few animals that will look where you are pointing rather than at you when you point at something.

That kind of thing depends a lot on intelligence, as well as a particular kind of cognitive development.


I had to reread a few times, but I now see the possibility of Eugene impersonating Julia with a bogus story about a new spell that is too powerful for its spell slot. In his arrogance, Eugene could believe Roy wouldn't want to read the Forum analysis of the improved spell, so he'd believe what he's told.

I initially read that as "Fourier analysis". My brain is glitching in odd ways at the moment.


Since Sabine's last time in Cliffport, I'd need a bit of back story/exposition on how she got ahold of the artifact, how she once again infiltrated Cliffport magic school, and how she duped Julia into donning the artifact ...

You're reminding me of a comment in Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality which was a deadly snark about the plot of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire. Instead of that kind of ridiculously baroque plan to get the kid to grab the teleportation gizmo after an entire school year of setup, you cast the teleportation trap spell on any small innocuous object. Then toss it at the kid and yell "hey, catch!" Especially since the kid has, for several years, demonstrated a remarkable talent for catching small flying objects -- it's one of his most lauded skills.

[Crusher]

Why is she not acting like Julia did back in Cliffport?

Eh, Sabine spent a couple days with Julia in the warehouse, IIRC, and only the last minute, maybe, included Roy. I would not be surprised if Julia acts *really* differently towards Roy than towards anyone else and Sabine wouldn't necessarily have had a chance to see this.

As a parent, you see this a lot. Picking up kid (when they're little) from a play-date at their friend's house and the friend's mom says "Little Sally was a such a great guest! She's so helpful and polite, we'd love to have her back anytime!" And she seems genuinely sincere in her comments, leaving you a little taken aback because either A) The mom rolled a 20 on her Deception check or has a MASSIVE bonus, or B) Your child was replaced by a doppleganger during the visit, because no other answer is plausible. Eventually you realize the answer is C) Your child behaves REALLY differently towards other grownups than they do to you. I mean, probably. If she's a doppleganger, its in for the long haul.


We're left having to speculate a bunch of other stuff which isn't currently supported by the information we have to make this work, and just for the purpose of "making the theory work". Again. It's "possible", but there's no reason to think this is what's going on anymore than a dozen other possibilities, and most of those have more support for them.

Oh, sure, but speculation is the bread and butter of this thread. But in this case, I've cracked it. The answer is obvious. Its not Sabine, its:

Redcloak's niece

[Peelee]

I initially read that as "Fourier analysis". My brain is glitching in odd ways at the moment.
Fourier analysis (https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2013-02-01), you say?


You're reminding me of a comment in Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
From what I've heard about that book, you have my sympathies.

[Tzardok]

From what I've heard about that book, you have my sympathies.

Oh, I very much liked HPMOR. Maybe it's because it's because it was the first fanfic I ever read, but from what I remember it was pretty well written. The problems people have with it are more ideological nature, I think.

[Crusher]

Fourier analysis (https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2013-02-01), you say?

Well, she WAS four years old.

[Kish]

Oh, I very much liked HPMOR. Maybe it's because it's because it was the first fanfic I ever read, but from what I remember it was pretty well written. The problems people have with it are more ideological nature, I think.
There's the "I am rewriting this story in which the villain is a magical racist who commits atrocities because of being abjectly terrified of death into a story where being abjectly terrified of death is the only appropriate reaction and magical racism is not worth mentioning" ideology, yes, but it's also honestly really badly written, leaning pretty much constantly on jargon that sounds scientific and would give anyone with actual knowledge of the related science an aneurysm.

[Fyraltari]

You're reminding me of a comment in Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality which was a deadly snark about the plot of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire. Instead of that kind of ridiculously baroque plan to get the kid to grab the teleportation gizmo after an entire school year of setup, you cast the teleportation trap spell on any small innocuous object. Then toss it at the kid and yell "hey, catch!" Especially since the kid has, for several years, demonstrated a remarkable talent for catching small flying objects -- it's one of his most lauded skills.

To be fair to Harry Potter, being an absolute drama queen is a consistant character trait of Voldemort and explicitly one of the reasons of his failure(s).

[woweedd]

To be fair to Harry Potter, being an absolute drama queen is a consistant character trait of Voldemort and explicitly one of the reasons of his failure(s).

To be 100% fair, not his plan. To be balanced, if the guy had tried to kidnap Harry from the middle of the school, someone would have noticed.

Anyway, HPMOR is, like, decent for fanfiction, provided you skip straight from chapter 30 to chapter 100.

[theNater]

OK, but if I'm reading this page in a book, then it makes even less sense to spend a page recaping pages I read approximately two minutes earlier. Unless there is something else going on...
The most straightforward "something else" here would be Julia providing or provoking an insight that Roy is unlikely to achieve without her. One that this specific collection of information is relevant to.

[Fyraltari]

To be 100% fair, not his plan.

It's not? It's been a long time, but I think I remember this book's bad guy having coordinated with him. At the very least that Voldemort could talk at this point and was expecting Harry.

[The MunchKING]

Instead of that kind of ridiculously baroque plan to get the kid to grab the teleportation gizmo after an entire school year of setup, you cast the teleportation trap spell on any small innocuous object. Then toss it at the kid and yell "hey, catch!" Especially since the kid has, for several years, demonstrated a remarkable talent for catching small flying objects -- it's one of his most lauded skills.

Wasn't the point you couldn't touch the thing after you cast the spells on it to make it a teleportation trap without being teleported? You can't just lob it at him, because if you pick it up to throw it, you get teleported and not him.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Instead of that kind of ridiculously baroque plan to get the kid to grab the teleportation gizmo after an entire school year of setup, you cast the teleportation trap spell on any small innocuous object. Then toss it at the kid and yell "hey, catch!"

At which point, nothing would have happened since of the well-established anti-teleport field of the school that prevents any teleports in or out unless specifically and locally removed (such as when it was lifted exclusively in the dinning room for teleportation practice). Such lifting of the protection was planned, presumably, to be done around the trophy in the last task so that the winner didn't have to trek back out, a hole in the Hogwarts defences known only to the organizers that the antagonist could exploit.

There are plot holes that one can find in the HP books, usually most obvious due to the lack of fully realised rules that accumulated over time and especially obvious between book 1 and the rest, but "why didn't fake moody use any old item as a portkey" is, I swear, the "why didn't they just fly the eagles to Mordor" of the HP series.


Wasn't the point you couldn't touch the thing after you cast the spells on it to make it a teleportation trap without being teleported? You can't just lob it at him, because if you pick it up to throw it, you get teleported and not him.

Nah, the spell comes with a time activation (i.e. "only become a teleport device at 2:32 pm"), before which it is inert. This is shown early, when the Weasleys all gather around a, IIRC, sneaker they all touch awkwardly for a few seconds before it activates.

Grey Wolf

[Tzardok]

Nah, the spell comes with a time activation (i.e. "only become a teleport device at 2:32 pm"), before which it is inert. This is shown early, when the Weasleys all gather around a, IIRC, sneaker they all touch awkwardly for a few seconds before it activates.

Grey Wolf

Both time-activated and touch-activated versions exist. The triwizard cup for example couldn't have been time-activated. After all, what would have happened if no one reached it before time ran out?

[Blue Dragon]

Trivia: in Brazil "beholder" is commonly translated as "observador", which is closer to "observer". So yeah, something like that.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Both time-activated and touch-activated versions exist. The triwizard cup for example couldn't have been time-activated. After all, what would have happened if no one reached it before time ran out?

This doesn't follow? All portkeys are touch-activated. They are also time-activated, in that they are inert before a given time, and only at that time do they become touch-activatable.

The tri-wizard portkey was presumably set to activate shortly after the start time of the task, so that it'd be already activated when the players got to it. We do not hear of a portkey that stops being one after a certain time - not saying it can't exist, just saying we never saw one. The only way the books show of deactivating a portkey spell is for it to be used. Based on the events at the end of the book, we can speculate, too, that you can apply the spell to the same object more than once, and it'll use up each spell in the order of activation (or some other means, the details are never explicitly stated). If so, what fake Moody did was set a second portkey spell set to activate before the official one, so that the first spell took you to the graveyard, while the second (official) one took you to the start of the maze.


The most straightforward "something else" here would be Julia providing or provoking an insight that Roy is unlikely to achieve without her. One that this specific collection of information is relevant to.

If that is what this is going toward - and at this time that's pure speculation on your part - it could still be accomplished with a "... and that's where we are" single line in the opening panel that tells the readers that Roy's got her up to date without using two pages to give her information the reader is already privy to.

Grey Wolf

[Tzardok]

This doesn't follow? The tri-wizard portkey was presumably set to activate shortly after the start time of the task, so that it'd be already activated when the players got to it. We do not hear of a portkey that stops being one after a certain time - not saying it can't exist, just saying we never saw one. The only way the books show of deactivating a portkey spell is for it to be used. Based on the events at the end of the book, we can speculate, too, that you can apply the spell to the same object more than once, and it'll use up each spell in the order of activation, so what fake Moody did was set a second portkey spell set to activate before the official one, so that the first took you to the graveyard, while the second (official) one took you to the start of the maze.

Grey Wolf

The Weasleys needed to be at the exact right time at the portkey. This means that time-activated portkeys travel when the designated point in time has arrived, no matter if anybody touches them. This also fits with the tight scheduling of the ministry wizards receiving the arrivals. Imagine if it worked the way you claim and no one had touched the boot. The ministry wizards would wait and the whole schedule would be disturbed. There could even two portkeys arrive at once at the same endpoint!

So in short, there are two kinds of portkey we see in canon. Those that transport the first one to touch them, and those that automatically travel at a specific point of time and take everyone with them that touches them at that point.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The Weasleys needed to be at the exact right time at the portkey. This means that time-activated portkeys travel when the designated point in time has arrived, no matter if anybody touches them. This also fits with the tight scheduling of the ministry wizards receiving the arrivals. Imagine if it worked the way you claim and no one had touched the boot. The ministry wizards would wait and the whole schedule would be disturbed. There could even two portkeys arrive at once at the same endpoint!

So in short, there are two kinds of portkey we see in canon. Those that transport the first one to touch them, and those that automatically travel at a specific point of time and take everyone with them that touches them at that point.

The Weasleys et al. needed to be at the portkey before the time because it was awkward for eight people to touch one small object all at the same time. Had they not all been touching it just before it was set to activate, the most likely scenario is that some would touch it a fraction of a second before the others, and half the group be left behind.

I'm not saying there aren't portkeys that automatically activate at a certain time whether or not anyone is touching them - there is one, IIRC, in the opening of the seventh book - but I fail to see how that conflicts with anything I've said. Such a variation of a portkey is definitely not what was used in the last task.

GW

[Tzardok]

Yeah, well, that's what I've been saying. The triwizard cup was enchanted to portkey the first one who touched it. Time doesn't play a role in it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yeah, well, that's what I've been saying. The triwizard cup was enchanted to portkey the first one who touched it. Time doesn't play a role in it.

Again, that's the regular portkey that has a set time to activate, is inert before that time, and after that time it stays activated until discharged by being touched (or if anyone is touching it at the activation time, discharges immediately). Not the one that just leaves at a certain time whether or not it was touched that you brought up.

GW

[Tzardok]

Again, that's the regular portkey that has a set time to activate, is inert before that time, and after that time it stays activated until discharged by being touched (or if anyone is touching it at the activation time, discharges immediately). Not the one that just leaves at a certain time whether or not it was touched that you brought up.

GW

I disagree with the notion that time was involved there at all. There is no reason to assume that the cup only started beinng a portkey at a certain point of time, nor do we have any examples of portkeys that work that way in canon. We only see "moves the first one who touches it" and "moves anyone who touches it at a specific point of time". There are no examples of "becomes active from a point of time on and then needs to be touched".

The most simple explanation is that Moody brought that thing into the hedgemaze, and then put the spell on it, and from that on it could move the first one who touched it. Do you have any proof that the cup sat inert for any timespan afterwards?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I disagree with the notion that time was involved there at all. There is no reason to assume that the cup only started beinng a portkey at a certain point of time, nor do we have any examples of portkeys that work that way in canon. We only see "moves the first one who touches it" and "moves anyone who touches it at a specific point of time". There are no examples of "becomes active from a point of time on and then needs to be touched".

I really don't know how to more clearly explain this. The spell makes the object an inert portkey until a time is reached. It is literally explained to work that way in the book. When the time is reached, it becomes an active portkey. That means that it will teleport anyone who is touching it, or else it will remain an active portkey until touched. But after it teleports, it is no longer a portkey, it is just a regular unenchanted object. We see the receiving wizards at the Quidditch world cup just tossing them in a box, because they aren't magical anymore, just garbage. This is what cannons say portkeys are.


There are no examples of "becomes active from a point of time on and then needs to be touched".
Yes there is! Literally the first portkey we see works that way - it is a portkey (Diggory senior recognizes it as such), they all touch it but don't teleport, thus indicating it is inert, until the exact time they were told of in advance is reached, at which point it activates and only then everyone touching it teleports. That's how the book described portkeys, then are shown to work. Heck, we see it repeated much later, when Dumbledore creates one in front of Harry, set for activation a few seconds later. He enchants it, Harry and him touch it, then activates (so precisely timed that Dumbledore gives a countdown to activation) and teleports them to, IIRC, the cave in the sea.


The most simple explanation is that Moody brought that thing into the hedgemaze, and then put the spell on it, and from that on it could move the first one who touched it. Do you have any proof that the cup sat inert for any timespan afterwards?
The Triwizard cup is handled by any number of individuals prior to being placed in the center of the maze. it didn't teleport any of them. But it had to be enchanted as a portkey twice, once to teleport to the outside of the maze, once to teleport to the graveyard. So there must have been a time after Dumbledore enchanted it with the first destination where it was in people's hands - at the very least fake Moody's - when it was an inert portkey. Moody had the time to take it to the center of the maze and enchant it a second time away from other's eyes, and yet he wasn't teleported, so the thing was clearly set to activate at some future point, just like every other portkey, and then become active, ready to teleport the first one to touch it. There is no need of this third type you claim must exist that becomes a portkey immediately.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

There are plot holes that one can find in the HP books, usually most obvious due to the lack of fully realised rules that accumulated over time and especially obvious between book 1 and the rest, but "why didn't fake moody use any old item as a portkey" is, I swear, the "why didn't they just fly the eagles to Mordor" of the HP series.

I thought that was "what don't they use a time-turner to undo [bad thing]".

[danielxcutter]

To be fair to Harry Potter, being an absolute drama queen is a consistant character trait of Voldemort and explicitly one of the reasons of his failure(s).

He just had to defile precious historical artifacts, and for once it’s not about strictly the magical sense.

I mean, I don’t think I’d want to bind parts of my soul into random garbage myself, but yeah he was totally a drama queen.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I thought that was "what don't they use a time-turner to undo [bad thing]".

... It might be? I personally haven't seen that much bandied on as often as the random object portkey, but I can see why that one might be a contender for the top spot, sure.

...

...

...

And I can't help it, and I know you know, but the answer to that one is "because HP time travel works on stable time loop, so if the bad thing happened, the bad thing happened and no amount of time turner use can undo it".

Grey Wolf

[danielxcutter]

Also "time travel makes everything way more complicated than it needs to and if you have to rely on it you fail life forever".

[Jasdoif]

Also "time travel makes everything way more complicated than it needs to and if you have to rely on it you fail life forever".While you're correct when it comes to introducing time travel as a way for the writer to disguise their failures undo what they've already written; I want to point out that a story that's legitimately about time travel, like Back to the Future, can be quite good.

[danielxcutter]

Hey, even those only escape the second part of my statement! :smalltongue:

[Gnoman]

There's the "I am rewriting this story in which the villain is a magical racist who commits atrocities because of being abjectly terrified of death into a story where being abjectly terrified of death is the only appropriate reaction and magical racism is not worth mentioning" ideology, yes, but it's also honestly really badly written, leaning pretty much constantly on jargon that sounds scientific and would give anyone with actual knowledge of the related science an aneurysm.

It it also barely connected to the source material at all - the author admits that he never read most of the books, but did read lots and lots of fanfic. Most of the "plot holes" or "proof Harry is such a Rational Genius by deconstructing the magic system" elements are things the author straight made up, often directly contradicting the text.

[Fyraltari]

And I can't help it, and I know you know, but the answer to that one is "because HP time travel works on stable time loop, so if the bad thing happened, the bad thing happened and no amount of time turner use can undo it".

Grey Wolf

Not since Cursed Child! Anything goes, now.

[danielxcutter]

We don't speak about Cursed Child.

[Resileaf]

Then only Harry Potter canon for me is Harry Potter and the Portrait of What Looked Like a Large Pile of Ash.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Not since Cursed Child! Anything goes, now.

The less I say about my opinions on JKR's career post-HP book 7, the less likely I get red texted. Heck, push me a tad, and I'd declare everything non-canon starting from the epilogue of book 7.

GW

[Beni-Kujaku]

We don't speak about Cursed Child.

About what? I have never known of anything with that name, and if I did, I'd probably go back in time so that it didn't happen, so I would not have anyway.

[brian 333]

I was reading about a D&D comic, then everyone started posting in a foreign language. It has some elements of a language I recognize, but there are no glowy swords or space ships. It almost sounds like D&D-ish, but nobody rolled any dice or argued about alignment.

And none of this has anything to do with Eugene, Sabine, and Redcloak's niece cooperatively possessing Julia's body.

I'm so confused...

[The MunchKING]

Pathfinder??

[faustin]

I was reading about a D&D comic, then everyone started posting in a foreign language. It has some elements of a language I recognize, but there are no glowy swords or space ships. It almost sounds like D&D-ish, but nobody rolled any dice or argued about alignment.

And none of this has anything to do with Eugene, Sabine, and Redcloak's niece cooperatively possessing Julia's body.

I'm so confused...

First time here?

[Onyavar]

I was reading about a D&D comic, then everyone started posting in a foreign language. It has some elements of a language I recognize, but there are no glowy swords or space ships. It almost sounds like D&D-ish, but nobody rolled any dice or argued about alignment.

And none of this has anything to do with Eugene, Sabine, and Redcloak's niece cooperatively possessing Julia's body.

I'm so confused...

Exactly. HP fanfiction Expelliarmus! Accio Topic!

I felt very uneasy when I read the latest comic, not the least because of the "she" in the first panel, so I am very convinced: This is either Rich throwing a subtle hint that will be glaring obvious later, or he was failing big with a good setup for the punchline, on the same page where he should have written "they" instead of "she" on the first panel.

Convinced that Rich is still the same genius who set up hundreds of subtle hints before, and who takes a lot of time to proceed these days: I am firmly in the camp that something is wrong with Julia here, if that's even her. But there are issues: There was a first Julia-Roy conversation, and it technically looks exactly like the one we follow right now: Julia is wearing the same outfit, is surrounded by the same IME down to the color, and only her reactions are odd when compared to the previous convo. Which was long and detailed enough to allow a basis for comparison.p

I was suspicious of Julia's first appearance a hundred strips before (1191-1196), already: Discovering this homebrewn contact spell so shortly before the final encounter... felt odd. But the supposed Julia ultimately convinced me to not be a cruel joke from Daddy, whom I first suspected. So I was finally convinced that the first Julia contact has been genuine, which again raises the threshold for a fake Julia on this second call.

But also: Julia apparently has the resources to scry Roy all around the clock, to learn when he has time to talk to her. And then, she just appears. I find it suspicious, Roy called it out many times before, but that was with Eugene. With Julia, I am highly sceptical she can do that. Especially within this labyrinth made out of multidimensional stone.

Whoever is doing the (supposed) fake Julia call right now, has copied her entire appearance from the first call, and also copied the whole spell's look-and-feel. That is big, so whoever is doing this, has real epic oomph. Which incidentally only the Heavens (Eugene) and the Netherworld (IFCC) provide. Can we exclude some unknown players, like a divine intervention from a god not previously involved, etc? Yes, I think we can. I really racked my brain, and nobody else comes to mind, who would be able, knowledgeable and willing to pull this off: Tarquin/Laurin would target Elan, not Roy, and not know about Julia's details. Girard and all his people are dead. Serini has a different mode of operations, and very busy. If Redcloak could reach Roy in any way, he wouldn't play mindgames, he'd cast

Much has been said about Eugene already: Well, he is a great illusionist, so if he epic-scried Julia's first call, and feels really mischievous, he can do this stunt right now, too. But that feels weird. Much more likely, he managed to decieve Roy in the first time as well, and it was him in the first call as well. But what is the motivation, exactly? All I can think of is that Roy distrusts and dislikes him, but Eugene has had some deep insights into his former wrongdoings and deceptions. So now, to give Roy better advice than before, he chose a different person whom Roy trusts. Ooff. That would be seriously effed-up. So... um... no, Eugene doesn't make a lot of sense. Too convoluted.

Which leaves the IFCC. Let me say first, I don't think Sabine can be involved, she is banned from the prime material for a year. This is not Sabine in disguise, either, it has been pointed out how she can't change skin color. BUT! This is the clearest indication, of anything I've seen recently, that would shoehorn the IFCC back into the story. The Nerds of Evil are going to be involved in the whole final battle, and they still have two invoices on Vaarsuvius's soul left.
Sooo. They could have made a whole different bargain with Julia, for example to let her find this communication spell. And also, I think their whole plan involves saving the world, but taking over their respective hells.

[Ruck]

Let me say first, I don't think Sabine can be involved, she is banned from the prime material for a year.

Where did you get that? The only thing we've seen with such an effect is the Holy Word in book 5, which banished her for 24 hours.

[Jasdoif]

Also "time travel makes everything way more complicated than it needs to and if you have to rely on it you fail life forever".While you're correct when it comes to introducing time travel as a way for the writer to disguise their failures undo what they've already written; I want to point out that a story that's legitimately about time travel, like Back to the Future, can be quite good.
Hey, even those only escape the second part of my statement! :smalltongue:No; a story about time travel needs to be as complicated as time travel makes it, as exploring the complexity of time travel is what allows it to be a story about time travel...particularly since implications can vary wildly as there are basically four narrative categories of "time travel":

Branching timeline, where changing the past creates a new future "branch" and the original future becomes inaccessible but still exists (so you can't change yourself prior to beginning time travel, since everything leading up to that is still tied to the original timeline)
Mutable timeline, where changing the past changes the future (so you could change your history; but things become gross if that alteration stops your time travel, since time travel paradoxes are essentially a type of plot hole)
Stable timeline, where a change in the past isn't actually possible since that "change" already happened in the past (which does sharply limit the utility of time travel)
Timeline apathy, where the phrase "time travel" is used because that might obfuscate that it's just the writing failing to make sense (deliberately or otherwise)

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, but the fourth is way too common IIRC.

[Onyavar]

Where did you get that? The only thing we've seen with such an effect is the Holy Word in book 5, which banished her for 24 hours.

Right, I totally got that duration wrong. Will edit.

[elros]

Thanks to everyone for this discussion. I would not have picked up on the hints suggesting that Julia could be an imposter. Now I hope that is actually the case!

[Quizatzhaderac]

The biggest revelation from this strip is that the Stickverse uses Imperial weights and measures. The pound is a Roman invention, the US and Imperial systems just formalized exact amounts for a unit that had existed for thousands of years.

Most European Countries were using some version of the "pound" prior to the French revolution.
That said, I think Roy is downplaying what a massive new asset Sunny could be. Well, yes, but consider the reader expectations Rich is managing here.

IRL, essentially every animal's eyes can track a moving object. And also point at a new target in a fraction of a second. If Sunny's main eye worked like that, Xykon and Redcloak would have basically no chance to cast during the main fight.

OK, but if I'm reading this page in a book, then it makes even less sense to spend a page recaping pages I read approximately two minutes earlier.Not recapping, analyzing. The take away is that the Big Showdowntm isn't going to work like when Serini ambushed the Order.

This is obvious if you know D&D, have had weeks to think about it, and/or have read the forum discussions. But if the reader doesn't realize this, there won't be a sense of danger leading up to the main fight and common D&D tactics will feel like diablo ex machinas.

Although all of y'all suggesting this isn't really Julia are really making me a little paranoid.Paranoia about a D&D game? I don't see where that could come from.

BTW, your sister is a succubus, the stool is a mimic, the stalactite is a spike monster, the lizard is a polymorphed T-rex, and the background wall is a multidimensional colossal dire zebra.


I felt very uneasy when I read the latest comic, not the least because of the "she" in the first panel, so I am very convinced: This is either Rich throwing a subtle hint that will be glaring obvious later, or he was failing big with a good setup for the punchline, on the same page where he should have written "they" instead of "she" on the first panel.Arguably, "they" should never be used for the singular. That's not my opinion, but that's definitely a thing some people believe, are taught, and practice.

If you believe that, then the technically correct thing to say in panel one would be "he or she"; however, that sounds incredibly stiff and formal. Even if you accept the singular "they", it still sound stiffer and more formal that just one of "he"/"she". So the most casual thing to do is to just assume a gender and use one of "he"/"she".

Classically, most writers would assume "he" in most circumstances where the person might be a man. This is considered sexist and does seem like something that Rich, in particular, would care about. Also, notably, wizards of the coast seems to frequently refer to hypothetical people as "she".

The rule Rich seems to be using for OotS-world is that men refer to hypothetical people as "he" and women refer to hypothetical people as "she"

[Tzardok]

IRL, essentially every animal's eyes can track a moving object. And also point at a new target in a fraction of a second. If Sunny's main eye worked like that, Xykon and Redcloak would have basically no chance to cast during the main fight.


Sure, but Sunny's (and any beholder's) antimagic cone is not dependant on the direction or movement of the pupil. It radiates outward from the whole eyeball and only moves if the whole body rotates. That's also why ruleswise a beholder can only reorient its antimagic cone once per round.

[Doug Lampert]

...
Paranoia about a D&D game? I don't see where that could come from.

BTW, your sister is a succubus, the stool is a mimic, the stalactite is a spike monster, the lizard is a polymorphed T-rex, and the background wall is a multidimensional colossal dire zebra....

The key insight of this entire thread is the fact that someone spotted the multidimensional colossal dire zebra. Clearly the doon to be breakout character of the entire series.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Not recapping, analyzing. The take away is that the Big Showdowntm isn't going to work like when Serini ambushed the Order.

There is some analyzing going on. But there is also a lot of telling-not-showing discussion of thing the comic showed-not-told not that long ago.


Arguably, "they" should never be used for the singular. That's not my opinion, but that's definitely a thing some people believe, are taught, and practice.

[citation needed]. "They" has been an accepted, acceptable and simply correct means to indicate singular people of unknown gender since, I am told (https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/), Early English. But since I cannot for the life of me read that, here's Chaucer instead (from this page (https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2017/05/they-4.html)):


Prologue of the Pardoner’s Tale (circa 1380s):

“And whoso fyndeth hym out of swich blame, / They wol come up and offre a Goddés name”
(“And whoso findeth him out of such blame, / They will come up and offer in God’s name”)

(emphasis mine)

Some random 18th century prescriptivist grammarian does not constitute a higher authority on the usage of the English language and the singular "They" than Chaucer. (same for split infinitives, dangling participles, etc.)

Grey Wolf

[hroþila]

You don't need a citation for the claim that some people think it's wrong. That's obviously true.
(but those people are demonstrably wrong)

Anyway, I'm puzzled by the assertion that neutral 'they' will somehow sound more formal than 'he' or 'she' even to people who accept and use it. While this kind of neutral 'they' has pretty much made its way to the standard language by now, it's overwhelmingly common particularly in colloquial and informal registers.

[gbaji]

Metric values and weights, right? :P

I refuse to use the grams setting on my kitchen scale. ;)

Although, fun fact, while "a pint's a pound the world around" is pithy and helps convert stuff, it *only* applies to water, where ounces are the same whether measured by weight or by volume (under most conditions on earth anyway). I've seen people use the volume measurements when they should use weight, which can have hillarous results. Pro-tip: even though most recipes will call for grated cheese in "cups", you should absolutely *not* look at your liquid measuring cup, note that 8 oz is one cup, and use that to determine how many ounces of cheese you should use. This is made particularly confusing since stores (in the US at least) literally sell cheese by weight (ie: x ounces). For anyone curious (and just to be universally helpful I guess), 4 oz of cheese by weight is approximately 1 cup (volume) of cheese when grated. Your casserole consumers can thank me later (unless they really really like cheese).

Or you can use metric.



OK, but if I'm reading this page in a book, then it makes even less sense to spend a page recaping pages I read approximately two minutes earlier. Unless there is something else going on, this is a really weird filler, more reminiscent of when an anime show is running out of money/source material and needs to throw together a clip show to fill time. And yes, characters getting breathing room and development is nice, but a) there ain't much of that going on (unless Julia really has mellowed since we last saw her... what, three days prior in OotS time?) and 2) they could be talking about anything else that doesn't come over as telling the audience what they just saw.

Eh. Could be. Most of the Roy/Eugene and now Roy/Julia dialogue stuff fills more of a "tell us what's going on in Roy's head" purpose than merely a plot refresh. It's a way to inform the readers why various choices are going to be made, and to make clear plot points that readers may have missed or something. We may have a better idea of this in the next couple strips.

But yeah. I agree that this may indicate that Julia will have a more significant role in the story as well. What exactly that is, I couldn't put any weight on beyond wild speculation.



Eh, Sabine spent a couple days with Julia in the warehouse, IIRC, and only the last minute, maybe, included Roy. I would not be surprised if Julia acts *really* differently towards Roy than towards anyone else and Sabine wouldn't necessarily have had a chance to see this.

Right. But the problem is that Julia has been behaving noticably more mature both in this conversation and the previous one on the airship. She's not remotely like how she acted during the 2 weeks that Sabine held her captive. Which leaves us three possibilities:

1. She's just Julia and she's matured since Cliffport.

2. The first sending was Julia and she's matured since Cliffport, but somehow someone spied on that and are imitating her based on that conversation to <do something evil>.

3. Both sendings are someone else pretending to be Julia to <do something evil>.

In 1, we're done. It's Julia.

2 gives us problems because the clues that might make us think it's not Julia are the same in both conversations (she's dressed and behaves differently than in Cliffport, and hey "created a custom sending spell", right?). There's nothing specific to this conversation that screams "it's not Julia" that wasn't present in the first. And we'd also have to speculate some means for someone to spy on the first sending to fake the second.

3. Leaves us with the problem of "why not duplicate Julia as last seen"? She should be behaving the way Roy expected. If you're going to try to pretend to be someone to someone else, you would mimic them as the same person they were the last time the person you're trying to fool experienced. Yet, in both conversations we see a more conservative and reserved and mature Julia. Also, the first conversation had some very specific family details that would be almost impossible to fake (although I suppose "Possesed Julia" can still work here).

Dunno. Any examination of 2 and 3 results in having to keep flipping back and forth from one to the other to make all the facts and actions "fit". Which suggests that we should reject them as possibilities. At least without more conclusive data. When we start pointing out flaws in 3, the argument shifts to "ok, but maybe it was 2", but when we examine flaws in 2, it flips back to "Oh. Then it must be 3". Er... Or it's neither.



There is no need of this third type you claim must exist that becomes a portkey immediately.

Well. You could cast one with a delay of "0". But yeah. No need for a separate method for the spell to work. To be fair, the idea that conditions (like a time delay/arming/whatever) is kinda obvious to have since otherwise you could never carry a portkey around with you anywhere (although that does seem somewhat handwaved away at times anyway).

To be perfectly honest, if we were asssessing this in a "how would you create these spells to make them most useful without being a pain in the butt", there should always be some sort of activation phrase or whatnot. Merely touching it seems... silly. But, of course, was necessary to make the whole Goblet thing work, so that's how they work. I suppose we could assume that a portkey could have any of a number of activation methods, with "touching it" being just one.




Prologue of the Pardoner’s Tale (circa 1380s):

“And whoso fyndeth hym out of swich blame, / They wol come up and offre a Goddés name”
(“And whoso findeth him out of such blame, / They will come up and offer in God’s name”)


Eh. Don't feel like getting into some grand discussion on this, but I will note that these supposed "exceptions" from the past seem pretty consistently to include sentences where the noun being referenced can/does include a "group" of individuals, not just exclusively one person.

Examine this (more modern) sentence:

"Anyone caught speeding will be subject to ticket and fine".

The word "anyone" (just like "whoso") is not specifically numbered pronoun. It's a reference to a group of people who meet a given criteria ("findeth him out of such blame" or "caught speeding"). The second part of the sentence, if broken out into its own clause/sentence would be "They will be subject to ticket and fine" (just like "They will come up and offer in God's name"). That does not mean, nor should it be used to support, that a single person can or should be referred to by the plural pronoun "they" when we're explicitely speaking only of just one person. "They" in this case refers to a group, not an individual. We should not substitute it in the "clearly a single named individual" situation (ie: "Jim walked into the room. They were hit with a bucket of water"). That's simply not the same as saying "Anyone who enters this room; verily, they shall be hit with a bucket of water". The latter form does not support the former.

I'm not entirely adverse to the idea of using "they" as a gender neutral pronoun (I'm not a huge fan, but hey, language changes, right?), but it does irk me when people use improper interpretations of past grammer to support it. Just say what you're trying to do and why and don't try to hide behind other claims of legitimacy from the past.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Eh. Don't feel like getting into some grand discussion on this, but I will note that these supposed "exceptions" from the past seem pretty consistently to include sentences where the noun being referenced can/does include a "group" of individuals, not just exclusively one person.

No. First, I don't consider that "it could be more than one person" to be of any significance. In Chaucer's example, the sentence is clearly talking about a singular individual encountering the MC - thus, singular they. That they belong to a category "travellers" is irrelevant, the sentence is still clearly speaking of a single individual coming across the titular guy.

Furthermore, if you keep going through other examples, it is still clear that in some cases, the idea there must always be a "group" is a fiction. From the same link, another example, from a passage from a letter written by Lord Chesterfield in 1759: "If a person is born of a … gloomy temper … they cannot help it.”. You can claim that "the group" is "people born", I suppose, but it gets silly really quickly - the sentence is talking about a singular individual, of any gender, and therefore they is appropriate, just as it is in the comic.

And ultimately, if this is a line in the sand you want to draw, for whatever reason, I'll point out that "the group" Julia fails to use the singular they on is "people that have joined Roy's team" and therefore is still appropriate.

Grey Wolf

[KorvinStarmast]

I was finally convinced that the first Julia contact has been genuine, which again raises the threshold for a fake Julia on this second call. That's what the IFCC wants you to think. :smallwink: The allusion that the three made to a vessel and Sabine (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html)before the end of Utterly Dwarfed preceded the first Julia visit. If the IFCC is involved, and if Sabine is involved, at least Sabine knows what Julia looks like, and she can, posing as Julia-the-wizard-student, present to Roy her cool hack on Dad's blood curse. I suppose that there would need to be a way for the IFCC to know about Eugene's blood curse and the connection with Roy and the sword. I can't for the moment recall where it is shown that they know that, but Sabine might.

So it's possible, but for my satisfaction a few more pieces need to be shown before it settles. The mechanics of how multidimensional stone works remains fuzzy, but it might not need much of a loophole to wiggle through.

Another indicator of the first visit not being Julia is the "yeah, cool spell hack, but I can't teach it to your wizard for *reasons* complete with uh, er, stumbling by Julia) Strip 1192. The voice sounds more like Eugene in a few of those panels, but not in some others and not as much in 1193 ... and she does keep harping on Roy beating Xykon ... which is Eugene's obsession. One thing about Eugene is that he's a bit of a nag to Roy about the oath, and that he is, or was, an illusionist, and he knows Julia and Roy well. And he wasn't at Roy's fighter school test, I think.
This being another Eugene trick to keep nagging Roy about ending Xykon is a less complicated take if the Julia we see here isn't Julia.

Julia apparently has the resources to scry Roy all around the clock, to learn when he has time to talk to her. And then, she just appears. I find it suspicious, Roy called it out many times before, but that was with Eugene. With Julia, I am highly sceptical she can do that. Especially within this labyrinth made out of multidimensional stone. The usual answer to stuff like that is "A wizard did it" and "it's magic, you really wouldn't understand" but Rich usually doesn't go for that.

The key insight of this entire thread is the fact that someone spotted the multidimensional colossal dire zebra. Clearly the doon to be breakout character of the entire series.
I presume that's the 'soon to be breakout character of the entire series' which puts the Chaotic Giaffes Hilgya summoned back (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1116.html) in the unemployment line.

[Onyavar]

Arguably, "they" should never be used for the singular. That's not my opinion, but that's definitely a thing some people believe, are taught, and practice.

If you believe that, then ...

Maaaybe, I am not a native speaker, just a foreign observer of the English language. We have a similar debate in German as well, where the gender flections are grammatically much stronger enforced than in English, and the debate can get ugly about the "correct usage of language". I too have mixed feelings, loving the language I grew up with, while also knowing it is highly patriarchaic and should change for the better - but most newfangled flections sound and read weird and artificial. But all that is neither here nor there, this is not about the broader gender-in-language debate.This is about a specific speech bubble: Julia already knows (or presumes) there is a singular female ally, when all Roy just said so far was "hey we have a new ally".

For all the real Julia would know, the hypothetical ally could be an entire new group of people, like "another group of Paladins" (those were the last allies Roy talked about, last page!) or someone completely surprising, like "the dire penguins" or "the polar were-bears".

"They", "it", "that ally" seems really most appropriate when you are inquiring about an unknown number of people of unknown gender: "Oh, who is it?" or "Oh, who are they?"



The allusion that the three made to a vessel and Sabine (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html)before the end of Utterly Dwarfed preceded the first Julia visit.
Oh, I didn't remember that interaction. The last time where I remembered the IFCC going on about the technicalities of vessels, was here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0897.html), and it totally threw me off.

[KorvinStarmast]

For all the real Julia would know, the hypothetical ally could be an entire new group of people, like "another group of Paladins" (those were the last allies Roy talked about, last page!) or someone completely surprising, like "the dire penguins" or "the polar were-bears". The dire penguins wanted too much money - Haley objected, obviously. :smallcool:

[Quizatzhaderac]

Some random 18th century prescriptivist grammarian does not constitute a higher authority on the usage of the English language and the singular "They" than Chaucer. (same for split infinitives, dangling participles, etc.)I'm not making a prescriptive argument (in fact, I said my prescription is that other way) I was just describing the way some people talk/write.

We may not like the influence of some grammarians, but that doesn't erase their influence.
Anyway, I'm puzzled by the assertion that neutral 'they' will somehow sound more formal than 'he' or 'she' even to people who accept and use it. While this kind of neutral 'they' has pretty much made its way to the standard language by now, it's overwhelmingly common particularly in colloquial and informal registers.This was nothing more than my impression. I disagree with you about the relative frequency, but I don't have data so I can't expect to change your mind.

Although, fun fact, while "a pint's a pound the world around" is pithy and helps convert stuff, it *only* applies to water....Not even water.

The expression is particularly stupid as the pint is the one unit that is significantly different between the US and Imperial systems.
For all the real Julia would know, the hypothetical ally could be an entire new group of people, like "another group of Paladins" (those were the last allies Roy talked about, last page!) or someone completely surprising, like "the dire penguins" or "the polar were-bears".That's conceivable, but at this scale it would seem weird to talk about a group as "an ally". Like, Roy said "two paladins" not "the Sapphire Guard".

[Ruck]

The biggest revelation from this strip is that the Stickverse uses Imperial weights and measures.

Been that way for a while. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0165.html)


Right. But the problem is that Julia has been behaving noticably more mature both in this conversation and the previous one on the airship. She's not remotely like how she acted during the 2 weeks that Sabine held her captive. Which leaves us three possibilities:

1. She's just Julia and she's matured since Cliffport.

I think this one is true regardless. Note how she dresses significantly more conservatively in her appearances in this book than she did in Cliffport. (Which, come to think of it, unless she's really done her research, is the kind of thing Sabine would decidedly not do.)

[gbaji]

No. First, I don't consider that "it could be more than one person" to be of any significance. In Chaucer's example, the sentence is clearly talking about a singular individual encountering the MC - thus, singular they. That they belong to a category "travellers" is irrelevant, the sentence is still clearly speaking of a single individual coming across the titular guy.

Grammatically, the fact that it's a reference to any individual among a set of individuals in a group or category is absolutely significant. It's what the "they" (plural) refers to. It's why that form has been used historically.


Furthermore, if you keep going through other examples, it is still clear that in some cases, the idea there must always be a "group" is a fiction.

Is it?


From the same link, another example, from a passage from a letter written by Lord Chesterfield in 1759: "If a person is born of a … gloomy temper … they cannot help it.”. You can claim that "the group" is "people born", I suppose, but it gets silly really quickly - the sentence is talking about a singular individual, of any gender, and therefore they is appropriate, just as it is in the comic.

And yet, once again, we have a non-specific (non named) reference being used. "A person... of a gloomy temper" is any person within a set of people who have gloomy tempers. "They" refers not to any one specific individual, but to any member of that group. In the same way that we may say something like "Anyone who wishes to attend the course must bring their own book".

To follow your own link, cases 2a and 2b are historical and all follow the pattern I'm speaking of. It's 2c that is "new", and no amount of "but in those other cases it was ok" change the fact that we're making a very new change that isn't supported by historical fact. They is used in those other cases to provide a pronoun where specific information about the noun is unknown and (as I mentioned earlier) is referred to by some group descriptive criteria ("the student" is a member of a group of students). It's about allowing ease of communication when specific information is unknown. Case 2c is specifically about concealing information that is known, which has the function of doing the opposite of "ease of communication".



And ultimately, if this is a line in the sand you want to draw, for whatever reason, I'll point out that "the group" Julia fails to use the singular they on is "people that have joined Roy's team" and therefore is still appropriate.

Maybe I missed something, but the statement you responded to was a specific response to comments about Julia using "she" instead of "they". This is not a case where Serini is concealing her gender, or has requested to be referred to by "they", so I'm a bit confused at the entire line of reasoning here (again, unless I missed something, which is entirely possible).

There are also a number of methods to get around using a singular pronoun when the gender of the subject is uknown:

Roy: "We have a new ally"

Julia: "And you think that person will help defeat Xkon?"
Julia: "And you think this new ally will help defeat Xykon?"
Julia: "And you think whomever it is will help you defeat Xykon" (this form also doubles as a dig for more information about the ally).

The idea that the one and only way to resolve this is to use "they" when referring to a specific single person is extremely questionable. But, again, I'm not upset or anything if someone chooses to use the pronoun "they" in that case. It's clear enough in that case what "they" refers to, grammatically speaking. My issue is when people insist on doing this in cases where it serves only to confuse the statement and make it unclear who they are speaking about (hah. Grammar loses there too!).

[gbaji]

Not even water.

The expression is particularly stupid as the pint is the one unit that is significantly different between the US and Imperial systems.

Well, I live in the US, and Rich lives in the US, and it's the US measurement that the expression refers to, so...

And yeah, I bake (bread, not cake), and I measure water and flour by weight and not volume, and I can state with quite some certainty that for any given weight of water in ounces, it's the same number of ounces of water by volume (close enough for eyeball in a measuring cup anyway). Water has low compressibility, and low enough thermal expansion, so this is true for any temperature and pressure ranges you're ever likely to encounter (especially in a kitchen). So yes. Converting a pint of water by volume to weight will result in a pound of water. Well, close enough for anything outside of a lab environment.

All the volume measurements are different between the US and UK (imperial) measurements, not just pints. US has 8oz cups. UK is 10. All other relative measurements are the same (2cups=1 pint. 4 cups=1 quart. 4 quarts=1 gallon). The pint is a bit odd because it's right between cups and quarts, but doesn't follow the same (multiply by 4) method. And yes, this means that a UK gallon is 160oz instead of 128 like in the US (did I mention that I also brew beer?).

The expression is useful because it helps you remember that 16 oz by weight is a pound, but 16 oz by volume is a pint, which in turn is 2 cups, etc. Which in turn, hopefully, lets you avoid mixing up volume and weight measurements. It's not my fault that folks in the UK adopted a different system at some point and mucked the whole thing up.

And sure. You could use metric measurements, but that way leads to insanity... :smallamused:

[Precure]

Julia's panic attacks since her first appearance in ghost form:

Panel 6: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1192.html) She panics when Roy asked her to teach the same spell to V, and makes up a excuse that her spell is somehow linked to Blood Oath, which seems strange in hindsight considering she claimed to create it as part of her academic studies.

Panel 5: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1193.html) She was totally nonchalant about the possibility that earth might be destroyed. When Roy confused by that, she panics and then exclaims an unusual trust on Roy's capabilities to not let that happen, which, again, seems strange.

Panel 10: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1193.html) She overreacts to Roy when he mentioned about the possibility of her direct involvement, and overcorrects him that she's only interested in giving her advice.

Panel 7: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1272.html) She panics when Roy reveals that he tricked her about how he knows that she's here.

Panel 12: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1273.html) She panicked when Roy interrogated her about the audition, implying she had no idea what happened there and whether she supposed to remember it or not.

I think it's probably Eugene himself and he's pretending to be his daughter. Why? Because at his last visit, Roy rebuked him and was unwilling to talk to him due to Eugene's past misdeeds (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1048.html). Roy also wished his sword to "pawn these visits to Julia", and Eugene is doing just that, using "Julia" to talk his son.

[Peelee]

Well, I live in the US, and Rich lives in the US, and it's the US measurement that the expression refers to, so...

Digging your heels in on US centricism to defend a saying which has "the world around" as a key facet is certainly a bold stance to take. :smallamused:

[KorvinStarmast]

I think it's probably Eugene himself and he's pretending to be his daughter. Why? Because at his last visit, Roy rebuked him and was unwilling to talk to him due to Eugene's past misdeeds (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1048.html). Roy also wished his sword to "pawn these visits to Julia", and Eugene is doing just that, using "Julia" to talk his son.
Kinda where I was going in my thought process, but you put into words what I was thinking very concisely. +1 :smallsmile:

[brian 333]

He is cute.
She is cute.
They is cute.

Hmm, the singular pronoun 'they' works quite well with singular verbs.

If we use a singular verb and a plural pronoun, we encounter subject-verb agreement issues.

They goes to the market.
They robs a store.
They eats cake.
They builds houses.

If one reconstructs the sentence to correct the subject-verb agreement issues, there is an altogether different issue.

They go to the market.
They rob a store.
They eat cake.
They build houses.

Now our intended singular 'they' has become plural. One should check historical references to determine how 'they' was actually used. It's an easy test: singular verbs end with an s.

[danielxcutter]

Many non-binary people use "they" as a singular pronoun these days.

[brian 333]

Many non-binary people use "they" as a singular pronoun these days.

Do they use 'are' as a singular verb?

[danielxcutter]

Honestly I don't remember.

[Peelee]

Do they use 'are' as a singular verb?

Like saying "hey, Brian 333, as a singular person with a singular verb, you are happy with that 'are' there, yeah?"

[hroþila]

Singular they goes with 'are' and with historically plural verbs in general, much like singular you. But I'm not sure it makes a lot of sense to say the verb is still plural, sinchronically speaking. It's just the unmarked form, except with the verb 'to be' which is too irregular to analyze like this.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

He is cute.
She is cute.
They is cute.

Hmm, the singular pronoun 'they' works quite well with singular verbs.

If we use a singular verb and a plural pronoun, we encounter subject-verb agreement issues.

They goes to the market.
They robs a store.
They eats cake.
They builds houses.

If one reconstructs the sentence to correct the subject-verb agreement issues, there is an altogether different issue.

They go to the market.
They rob a store.
They eat cake.
They build houses.

Now our intended singular 'they' has become plural. One should check historical references to determine how 'they' was actually used. It's an easy test: singular verbs end with an s.

Wow. That is, truly, a spectacularly shallow analysis.

Now, do the same, but with the second person singular. And lets see you manage to write "you {verb} to the market" using a singular form of a verb that ends in s. And then twist yourself into a pretzel to explain why, somehow, repurposing the second person plural to be the second person singular is fine but not when it is done for the third person, as has been done for some 800 years now.

GW

[gbaji]

Digging your heels in on US centricism to defend a saying which has "the world around" as a key facet is certainly a bold stance to take. :smallamused:

When the phrase was originated the statement was true, since the standard British measurements were the same as the US measurements are today. In 1824 they changed the "size" of the gallon, and resized everything else to fit as a result. Canada adopted the new UK (Imperial) measurements some 50 years later. The US has simply maintained the same measurements since that phrase was adopted (sometime in the 14th century from what I've gleaned in my copious 5 minutes of research).

And yes. I still maintain that it's a convenient way to remember the difference between measurements by volume and measurements by weight. You know, for anyone who is actually using those measurements.


Wow. That is, truly, a spectacularly shallow analysis.

Now, do the same, but with the second person singular. And lets see you manage to write "you {verb} to the market" using a singular form of a verb that ends in s. And then twist yourself into a pretzel to explain why, somehow, repurposing the second person plural to be the second person singular is fine but not when it is done for the third person, as has been done for some 800 years now.

Not defending the previous conjugation claims, but...

it's because the third person singlular uses a different form that all the others. And no, it's not about pural or not. It's specific to third person singular, and for verbs that have a "s" ending (go/goes, see/sees, find/finds, etc). We can decide to adjust it, but that would require a lot more changes than just pronouns.

I go to the market
We go to the market

You go to the market
You (all) go to the market

He/she/it goes to the market
They go to the market

The third person singular is unique because it's the one pronoun we may use that actually directly replaces a proper noun. Well, technically, only the third person pronouns *ever* replace actual names in a sentence. And only third person singular in a one to one noun/pronoun word substitution.

You would never put a name instead of a pronoun in any of the first four examples (first and second person, both singlular and plural).

Only in the third person do we do this, and the verb changes specifically based on singlular or plural

Joe goes to the market
Alice goes to the market
Robbie goes to the market
Joe, Alice, and Robbie go to the market.

First three are third person singular. Last one is third person plural (well, if you replaced the list of names with a single pronoun "they").

Point being that the pronouns follow the same rules as the nouns they replace. So unless you are proposing that the first three third person singular names I just listed should all be changed to "Joe go to the market", "Alice go to the market", and "Robbie go to the market", then your argument about how "you" somehow survived the change (from thou to you specifically) doesn't hold much water.

Or are you suggesing that "they" should take "goes" when it refers to a third person singular? That can work, but I suspect that in most cases, people will just assume the speaker is using third person but just isn't a very good speaker. Don't get me wrong, from a language progression point of view, we maybe *should* be eliminating the change in verb in third person singular, just as we did with second person singular (thou goesth, or somesuch, right?). Natural progression and simplifies things.

Again though, the problem is that it's not just the pronous rules you have to change. Third person is somewhat unique in that regard.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Or are you suggesing that "they" should take "goes" when it refers to a third person singular?

I am not suggesting anything. I am asserting that English has been capable of using "Joe, Alice and Robbie share household chores. One will be in charge of purchases today, and they'll go to the market" when talking about single individuals of unknown gender for over 800 years, and the idea that this is somehow "wrong" is ahistorical. And furthermore, I assert that declaring that "they" cannot possibly refer to a single individual is clearly contrary to reality given that the sentence "Alex lives in that house; they go to the market every Tuesday" is perfectly valid English, and cannot possibly mean any of those "groups" of yours.

Grey Wolf

[brian 333]

It is true that English morphs, and sometimes it happens faster than a generation can adapt to it. The Victorian Age Vowel Shift happened so fast it was not recorded until after it was done, and at that point, nobody knew how or why it happened.

The elasticity of English is it's strength. Ask any native English speaking teenager. (If you can comprehend his reply.)

I'm not particularly worried about singular 'they', except when people extrapolate insult where none was intended. For example, when I use gender neutral 'he' when the reader does not identify as masculine gender.

But I have a real problem with the phrase, "My bad." The use of an adjective as a substitute for an object noun offends me. It's like saying, "My red," or, "My weak."

[hroþila]

it's because the third person singlular uses a different form that all the others. And no, it's not about pural or not. It's specific to third person singular, and for verbs that have a "s" ending (go/goes, see/sees, find/finds, etc). We can decide to adjust it, but that would require a lot more changes than just pronouns.
The old 2nd person sg pronoun 'thou' also used its own specific ending: -(e)st. Which was lost when it was replaced by 'you'. It really is the same situation.

[KorvinStarmast]

For example, when I use gender neutral 'he' when the reader does not identify as masculine gender. It's what we were taught in school.

But I have a real problem with the phrase, "My bad." The use of an adjective as a substitute for an object noun offends me. It's like saying, "My red," or, "My weak." It grates a bit, but I think it's slang. We then get into the nouning of verbs and verbing of nouns which would have driven my 8th grade English teacher to drink ... more than she already did.

The old 2nd person sg pronoun 'thou' also used its own specific ending: -(e)st. Which was lost when it was replaced by 'you'. It really is the same situation. I wish English had kep that word. It has a nice, formalness to it that the tu / usted differentiation in Spanish has, which appeals to me.

[Peelee]

It's what we were taught in school.
It's what you were taught. Not what we were taught.

We then get into the nouning of verbs and verbing of nouns which would have driven my 8th grade English teacher to drink ... more than she already did.
I shudder to think what drugs she would have delved into if she learned about descriptivism and language evolution, apparently.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It's what we were taught in school.
As someone that was exclusively taught English in a school setting - quite literally the only people I knew that spoke English were my very British expat teachers - I can absolutely say that this was never taught to me. "They" as singular genderless third person pronoun, on the other hand, I can't recall if it was ever explicitly taught or I just picked it up, but I definitely remember it showing up in the English Proficiency exams.


I wish English had kep that word. It has a nice, formalness to it that the tu / usted differentiation in Spanish has, which appeals to me.

I am quite the opposite. Not only is the distinction primarily to service and therefore enforce social distinctions that are better abandoned, I feel that any language - e.g. Spanish - that retains the requirement to indicate gender is not well served to modern communications. English has an advantage in this that it's almost got rid of it's gender requirements. Other than a few token examples such as blond/blonde & fiancé/fiancée, you practically have no gendered words. And given that "you" has already paved the way to abandoning the singular in favour of the plural, I think it'd be a good thing if English got rid of its third person singular pronouns in favour of universal use of "they" in all circumstances (and then your compatriots in Texas can start using "th'all" to indicate plural third person, just as y'all introduced, well, "y'all").

(Spanish, FWIW, could try to wean itself off gender with such things as the introduction of a neuter termination like "e"... but it needs to happen organically, and that'll take generations, as it has for English. And it definitely cannot be imposed externally by people who think "nx" is a valid termination for Spanish words)

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

Other than a few token examples such as blond/blonde & fiancé/fiancée, you practically have no gendered words.

I feel like your two examples being loaned from French is no coincidence.

[Peelee]

And the gendered words we do have are silly. Why do we differentiate between actor and actress?