Need some help preparing a banshee encounter

[tchntm43]

The past few adventures have had the party stomp all over most of my encounters. The party (5 characters of level 6) have easily beaten a Shoosuva demon and a Flind (CR 8 and 9). These were separate encounters. Going forward I am trying to avoid encounters that pit the party against a single high CR fight, because it's very swingy. If the monster rolls low initiative, it usually gets stomped. On the other hand, the party almost faced a TPK against a CR 7 Elder Shadow Drake (a Kobold Press monster) that rolled high initiative and breath-weaponed the party on its first turn for 12d6 damage.

There is an encounter I have planned that I feel unsure about (I've never played against this monster or introduced it as DM before). I'm not prohibiting TPK but I don't want it to be the result of the monster simply getting good rolls and the party getting bad rolls and there being nothing they could have done to prevent it.

The one I'm most concerned about is pitting the party against a pair of banshees. By CR, this shouldn't be a problematic fight. Only issue is, what if every character fails their CON save against the Wail ability? That would be it for the party then. And with 2 of them, that definitely increases the odds of that happening. For those who are experienced DMs, would you feel okay with this encounter? What sort of advice would you offer to avoid a "cheap" TPK while still not making it seem like you are trying to unfairly save the party?

[J-H]

A lot depends on the circumstances. If the party is crowded into a small space, the banshee is harder to handle. If they're out in an open graveyard, they can spread out, and used ranged attacks against that AC 12. Her DC is 13, so most characters have about a 50/50 chance of passing, not counting Bless or Paladin auras.

Horrifying Visage combined with Wail saves is more likely to mess them up.

The Advanced 5e/Levelup Banshee (https://a5e.tools/node/1440) is a bit tougher, has a ranged attack mode, and also changes to wail to "damaged, unless you're already cursed." This telegraphs the incoming wail. In some ways it's less powerful, but I think it's also more interesting, as long as AC 13/HP 58 doesn't crumple like tissue paper before the party. They need to use cover, hide behind walls, etc.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

The past few adventures have had the party stomp all over most of my encounters. The party (5 characters of level 6) have easily beaten a Shoosuva demon and a Flind (CR 8 and 9). These were separate encounters. Going forward I am trying to avoid encounters that pit the party against a single high CR fight, because it's very swingy. If the monster rolls low initiative, it usually gets stomped. On the other hand, the party almost faced a TPK against a CR 7 Elder Shadow Drake (a Kobold Press monster) that rolled high initiative and breath-weaponed the party on its first turn for 12d6 damage.

There is an encounter I have planned that I feel unsure about (I've never played against this monster or introduced it as DM before). I'm not prohibiting TPK but I don't want it to be the result of the monster simply getting good rolls and the party getting bad rolls and there being nothing they could have done to prevent it.

The one I'm most concerned about is pitting the party against a pair of banshees. By CR, this shouldn't be a problematic fight. Only issue is, what if every character fails their CON save against the Wail ability? That would be it for the party then. And with 2 of them, that definitely increases the odds of that happening. For those who are experienced DMs, would you feel okay with this encounter? What sort of advice would you offer to avoid a "cheap" TPK while still not making it seem like you are trying to unfairly save the party?

I'd probably spread them out a bit either by spacing and/or by having the second one show up a round later if possible. At least whoever survives the first wail has a chance get others up before the second one hits. The odds of a TPK would be pretty long, assuming the party used this strategy. If they don't get the others up, particularly if they're aware the second one's coming, that's on them.

[MrStabby]

The past few adventures have had the party stomp all over most of my encounters. The party (5 characters of level 6) have easily beaten a Shoosuva demon and a Flind (CR 8 and 9). These were separate encounters. Going forward I am trying to avoid encounters that pit the party against a single high CR fight, because it's very swingy. If the monster rolls low initiative, it usually gets stomped. On the other hand, the party almost faced a TPK against a CR 7 Elder Shadow Drake (a Kobold Press monster) that rolled high initiative and breath-weaponed the party on its first turn for 12d6 damage.

There is an encounter I have planned that I feel unsure about (I've never played against this monster or introduced it as DM before). I'm not prohibiting TPK but I don't want it to be the result of the monster simply getting good rolls and the party getting bad rolls and there being nothing they could have done to prevent it.

The one I'm most concerned about is pitting the party against a pair of banshees. By CR, this shouldn't be a problematic fight. Only issue is, what if every character fails their CON save against the Wail ability? That would be it for the party then. And with 2 of them, that definitely increases the odds of that happening. For those who are experienced DMs, would you feel okay with this encounter? What sort of advice would you offer to avoid a "cheap" TPK while still not making it seem like you are trying to unfairly save the party?

Would I feel comfortable running it? Depends on the table.

As some I am an ******* DM, fights are unfair, PCs die, bad guys escape, and hold person vs the party from a high level spellslot is a valid tactic. If I know this is what the papers are down with its fine.

Others prefer the kid gloves, yet others in between. Know your audience.

The banshee is a good monster for a high tension fight. Knowing what's coming can make it scary. Two of them seems fair, though you want to avoid too long with players doing nothing.

Another option is a banshee as a warm up to another, much bigger fight. Non-lethal 0hp condition isn't that big a deal for most parties, but when the banshee is dealt with being on 0hp and no time to heal up is a big deal.

[Dungeon-noob]

If you keep throwing encounters at your party of 5 players with only 1 or 2 creatures, the action economy MASSIVELY favors the pcs. That really screws your creatures, even if they're legendary, and worse if they aren't. Also, don't forget that CR is accounting for 6-8 encounters a day, and that anything below Deadly isn't meant to be a real challenge. Only Deadly is calculated to have a notable chance of pc down or death. So if you're throwing a single creature Hard encounter at them, it would line up with the math if they smeared it across the wall in a round or two, three.

My advice? Terrain, and more creatures. If they have to worry about a Banshee, a Bodak and a few Shadows, the monsters have more actions and tactics available to them, and the PCs can't nova the encounter quite as easily. And difficult terrain, limited vision (for the pcs, not the monsters if you pick them right), different movement types, cover from pc favoring ranged combat all help your creatures not be overrun quite as easily.

[Tawmis]

If you keep throwing encounters at your party of 5 players with only 1 or 2 creatures, the action economy MASSIVELY favors the pcs. That really screws your creatures, even if they're legendary, and worse if they aren't. Also, don't forget that CR is accounting for 6-8 encounters a day, and that anything below Deadly isn't meant to be a real challenge. Only Deadly is calculated to have a notable chance of pc down or death. So if you're throwing a single creature Hard encounter at them, it would line up with the math if they smeared it across the wall in a round or two, three.
My advice? Terrain, and more creatures. If they have to worry about a Banshee, a Bodak and a few Shadows, the monsters have more actions and tactics available to them, and the PCs can't nova the encounter quite as easily. And difficult terrain, limited vision (for the pcs, not the monsters if you pick them right), different movement types, cover from pc favoring ranged combat all help your creatures not be overrun quite as easily.

Was just about to say the same... a group of 5 on one target, even in difficult cases, is going to win.
Especially if one of the party members can shut down the enemy somehow (a bard, or a time wizard using portent to force failed saves), or any caster who can drop faerie fire on the single target - then everyone else focus fire at advantage.

Make more than one and don't space them next to each other, so a faerie fire doesn't hit them both.

[Sigreid]

To me, the key to whether a high or potentially high fatality encounter being fair depends almost entirely on whether an intelligent party has the ability to opt out of the fight. So, essentially if they either know that there are bansidhes or other likely deadly encounters ahead and can chose not to engage, or have the ability to retreat, then it's fair. If they have no choice but to face the encounter, it's not.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

To me, the key to whether a high or potentially high fatality encounter being fair depends almost entirely on whether an intelligent party has the ability to opt out of the fight. So, essentially if they either know that there are bansidhes or other likely deadly encounters ahead and can chose not to engage, or have the ability to retreat, then it's fair. If they have no choice but to face the encounter, it's not.

I sort of agree with this. I think it's also fair if A) the party can engage the fight knowing what's coming and can strategize accordingly, and/or B) the fight is presented in such a way that the fight is winable with good tactics even if there isn't much way out. That's why I suggested spacing the Banshees out. What I wouldn't do is: 'You see 2 Banshees(within 60'). Roll initiative.'. I'd also not group the Banshees initiative; I don't generally fudge rolls, but in this case I'd never have 2 Banshees win initiative on the whole party. 2 save or die rolls before anyone has had a chance to act is not going to feel fair.

[Sorinth]

If you are worried about the roll of the dice due to Wail there's a couple ways to mitigate that. Since you mentioned having two Banshee's you can have the second one not be on the scene to start the combat. Then after the first one uses it's Wail you decide how soon the 2nd one arrives. Staggering the fight makes it easier but also increases tension, because when it arrives they know to expect another Wail and they start to question whether there's going to be a 3rd. Also worth noting that Will-o-Wisp have a natural synergy with Banshee's, so they're an option if you want some minions and would rather stick with one Banshee. Also since they can start invisible they are easy to have enter the battle mid-fight if as in your previous combats the players are crushing it.

Alternatively you can start the fight using Horrifying Visage instead and hold back the Wail until the Banshee drops below half health. Hit and run tactics where the Banshee uses their Incorporeal Movement to go into the ground at the end of every round can seem scary but probably makes the fight easier since they are taking damage and players can ready action and not lose out that much on their damage. However by doing the opposite and building the battlefield in such a way that they have hidden/concealed places to hide out in it can up the danger. Especially if you don't attack every round, imagine a battle in a cemetery where the Banshee can drop into the ground and end up in a coffin or underground crypt where they hide out for a few turns. This can drain those 1 minute duration spells, since several turns might go by before the Banshee(s) reappear for a surprise attack. It also makes it so that spellcasters are forced to stick to Cantrips since readying a spell uses the slot.


I will say with Banshee's it's always a good idea to have a backstory prepared which the players uncover more of as they go. With 2 Banshee's I can imagine a situation where they were identical twins, and so the party assumes they are facing 1 Banshee but are in fact facing 2 separate ones which if they do well investigating they can figure out in advance.

[da newt]

Nah - I'd be fine DMing it and ready to decide when (and if) the second banshee uses it's wail. I'd also use separate initiatives for the two baddies so they have one early round turn and one later.

I'd definitely lean into their incorporeal movement to really throttle up or back off on their defense / offense - it will help allow you to tune for that Goldilocks just right amount of threat / tension via tactics.

I also always have a back up plan so I can de-escalate if the party gets really unlucky with some rolls or is tactically foolish, or add a threat if the party gets lucky / smart and it's looking like a curb stomp (a couple low CR minions show up behind the parties back line for example).

[Kurt Kurageous]

Most of the good points have already been made, but...

Consider adding will o' wisps as mooks. The Consume Life action makes the Wail of the banshee really count for something. That's if you want the encounter to truly be high stakes. Like this (grins evilly):
Will o Wisps invisibly lurk <50' from party, appear and move to Consume Life (B). If unsuccessful, then Shock (A) at advantage to inflict 2 failed death saves. Two Will o Wisps doing this might be enough to finish the luckless adventurer before another PC can save them. That will teach them to stay out of the banshee's swamp (or whatever).

Give banshees a surprise round.

Incorporate some kind of anti-magic environmental condition.

I don't know the stakes of this fight. Do the banshees fight to the end because they are defending something worth more than their existence? Or can they hit and run, stalking the party and never let them have a good night's rest?