TWF Warforged

[Alleine]

I bought the ECS, and pretty much fell in love with warforged. I love the flavor(not to mention the immunities). But one thing in particular caught my eye. All of the components and shineys they can stick to themselves.

I like the concept of the armblade, sure it takes EWP to use properly, but it looks freakin' awesome. And then I thought, "What's better than one armblade? TWO armblades!"
So what do you think? Is it worth it? Or am I complete idiot and should only follow the TWF if I want to completely sacrifice character effectiveness?

Note: I've never played a melee oriented class before, so I don't know what I'm doing to begin with. I figured it'd be a welcome break from my usual magic-type.

[AstralFire]

Ranger, moderately (but not entirely) ignore your Dex in favor of Str, and grab Oversized TWF as a feat.

It still won't be great, but you'll be on your way to actually not blowing chunks with the awesome combat of a bastard sword in each hand. It's a ton easier to do as a Dwarf, though, with the Waraxe.

[Zincorium]

TWF is hard to do, especially when you're concentrating on large weapons that don't use finesse (which negates swashbucklers and many rogue builds).

Tome of Battle is, as is often the case, a way of doing it at least partially. A warforged warblade (despite it's redundant-seeming name) focusing on tiger claw and maybe diamond mind works well for a warforged, with their lack of penalty to intelligence and ability to wear heavy armor from day 1.



The other, non-ToB option I'd suggest is actually fighter, with mithral body, going into Dervish from complete warrior. Some bonus damage, that you can improve with specialization, and mobility so you can actually make use of your multiple attacks. Fighter is mainly for the feats, as dervish has very strict requirements.

[Alleine]

So, basically, my double armblade dream will have to go a special route to be useful?

[Tequila Sunrise]

I bought the ECS, and pretty much fell in love with warforged. I love the flavor(not to mention the immunities). But one thing in particular caught my eye. All of the components and shineys they can stick to themselves.

I like the concept of the armblade, sure it takes EWP to use properly, but it looks freakin' awesome. And then I thought, "What's better than one armblade? TWO armblades!"
So what do you think? Is it worth it? Or am I complete idiot and should only follow the TWF if I want to completely sacrifice character effectiveness?

Note: I've never played a melee oriented class before, so I don't know what I'm doing to begin with. I figured it'd be a welcome break from my usual magic-type.

Other than fact that you won't be able to pick anything up with your two blades?

...sounds great to me! :smallwink:

[AstralFire]

Other than fact that you won't be able to pick anything up with your two blades?

...sounds great to me! :smallwink:

Warforged don't have to eat, what do you think their mouths are for? Talking?

PSHT.

Robowarslaves don't talk, they slicey things.

[Zincorium]

So, basically, my double armblade dream will have to go a special route to be useful?

Melee characters always have to go a 'special route' to be useful, but some of them are so common (TWF rogue and big-sword barbarian charger) that they don't stand out.

As it is, you don't have a good source of extra damage, and consistent high damage is the only thing meleers bring to the table towards the mid to high levels, when monsters have enough mobility or reach to make being a meatshield a practical impossibility.

The dervish will give you +5 to hit/damage with each blade at the end of the progression, specialization and maybe greater specialization could up that to +9 on the outside. This isn't spectacular, and it doesn't equal what a rogue with TWF would be doing (this is possible for your concept, by the way, but it'd be hard). But it gives you something, eh?

Edit:

To sell the idea, it's a dancing robot with blades for arms. If the idea of a shiny metal man doing spins and pirouettes with 5' blades on each arm doesn't exude wacky coolness, I'm not sure I can help you.

[dyslexicfaser]

It's a ton easier to do as a Dwarf, though, with the Waraxe.
Hey, sorry to derail the topic here, but wouldn't a dwarf dual-wielding waraxes suffer a -4/-4 instead of -2/-2, and therefore be very suboptimal?

[deadseashoals]

I bought the ECS, and pretty much fell in love with warforged. I love the flavor(not to mention the immunities). But one thing in particular caught my eye. All of the components and shineys they can stick to themselves.

I like the concept of the armblade, sure it takes EWP to use properly, but it looks freakin' awesome. And then I thought, "What's better than one armblade? TWO armblades!"
So what do you think? Is it worth it? Or am I complete idiot and should only follow the TWF if I want to completely sacrifice character effectiveness?

Note: I've never played a melee oriented class before, so I don't know what I'm doing to begin with. I figured it'd be a welcome break from my usual magic-type.

Wow, you and I had the exact same thought. You pretty much have to go fighter for it to work, and point buy at least a 15 Dex (preferably a 16). You need TWF, Oversized TWF, EWP (bastard sword), Power Attack, and Mithral Body, which you can pull off by level 4 (not like you'd be able to afford dual armblades before then anyway). After that, Focus, Specialization, Slashing Weapon Specialization, and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting are not bad picks.

It's a very gimicky build, and not all that effective, but it is pretty awesome. If you wanted to not suck while doing it, you could also be a Psychic Warrior, as they also get the feats necessary to pull it off.

[tyckspoon]

Hey, sorry to derail the topic here, but wouldn't a dwarf dual-wielding waraxes suffer a -4/-4 instead of -2/-2, and therefore be very suboptimal?

The Oversized TWF feat removes the non-light weapon penalty, bringing it down to the standard -2/-2. Dwarf's advantage is that he doesn't have to spend yet another feat on Exotic Weapon Proficiency, which is a pretty big benefit when considering a build as feat-hungry as two weapon fighting.

[Rachel Lorelei]

Dervish is indeed your best bet. You'll probably want 4 fighter levels (and one of Scout or Swordsage or something) in order to get enough feats, although Psychic Warrior 5 is also good. (Fighter 2/PsyWar 2/something 1 is even better, really.) You'll want to pick up Power Attack (the Dervish-dance bonus to hit can be turned into damage), and obviously TWF, OTWF, and CExpertise/Weapon Focus for Dervish prerequisites.

[AstralFire]

The Oversized TWF feat removes the non-light weapon penalty, bringing it down to the standard -2/-2. Dwarf's advantage is that he doesn't have to spend yet another feat on Exotic Weapon Proficiency, which is a pretty big benefit when considering a build as feat-hungry as two weapon fighting.

Correct. And the advantage of being a Ranger is that you don't have to have the insane Dexes necessary normally for TWFing, which also means you can feel less guilty about not having Weapon Finesse since it doesn't apply to Waraxes or Bastard Swords.

I'd make sure to grab Mithral Body or a Monk's Belt to supplement your AC.

[Reel On, Love]

Dervish is indeed your best bet. You'll probably want 4 fighter levels (and one of Scout or Swordsage or something) in order to get enough feats, although Psychic Warrior 5 is also good. (Fighter 2/PsyWar 2/something 1 is even better, really.)

Meh, I'd be careful with the multiclassing--sure, a level of Scout is great, and Ftr 2/PW 2/Scout 1 looks like a nice entry, but that's two points of BAB lost, which means that you're another two points of AB behind--TWF already imposes a penalty.

[Darrin]

Correct. And the advantage of being a Ranger is that you don't have to have the insane Dexes necessary normally for TWFing, which also means you can feel less guilty about not having Weapon Finesse since it doesn't apply to Waraxes or Bastard Swords.


Ranger + Swift Hunter + Scout dip also gives you the bonus damage you need to make TWF competitive with the PA/IBR/ST/LA junkies. With the right build, you can get your Skirmish damage up to 10d6, roughly the equivalent of an ECL 19 Rogue. Add the Travel Devotion feat, and you can move and full-attack for 10 straight rounds.

[Person_Man]

I'm not familiar with the arm blade, so I apologize if my advice isn't useful. Is it a light weapon?

Regardless, here's some good generic TWF advice:

1) Don't put all of your eggs into one basket. Find a couple of good TWF combos, invest in it for a while, and then diversify. If you do only one thing, it will get supremely boring, and your DM is sure to throw encounters at you where your combo doesn't work. The easiest way to diversify it through spells, psionics, or Tome of Battle maneuvers.

2) Take Improved Unarmed Strike or Oversized Two Weapon Fighting. You can now apply Power Attack to every attack you make. Take a full BAB class. Improve Power Attack with Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Favored Power Attack, etc.

3) Combat Reflexes + Karmic Strike (Complete Warrior) + Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook) + Robilar's Gambit (PHBII). Enemy hits you once, you hit enemy back four times. Warning: This combo requires high Dex and tons of feats, making it a poor choice for anything but a Fighter or Psychic Warrior.

4) Willing Deformity + Deformity Tall (Heroes of Horror) or Aberration Blood + Inhuman Reach (Lords of Madness). Either of these feat combos will give you +5 feet of natural reach. This fixes a major weakness of TWF - the lack of battlefield control. A good non-feat option is to use spells, psionics, or UMD to increase your size, or just ask a friend to do it for you.

5) Find ways to deal extra damage with each attack. The easiest way is Sneak Attack. The Tome of Battle has a bunch of ways as well. Warning: Tons of enemies are immune to ability damage, rendering you nerfed in many encounters.

6) Find a way to deal ability damage with every attack. The easiest ways are Rogue 10, Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) 11, Psychic Assassin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) 5, a Wounding weapon, and the Maiming Strike feat (Exemplars of Evil). Warning: Anything that's immune to Sneak Attack is also immune to ability damage.

7) Find a way to deal a Fear effects with your attacks. Fear effects stack. Good ways include the Frightful Presence feat (Draconomicon), Disciple of the Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060106a&page=2), and Avenging Executioner (Complete Scoundrel). Warning: Lots of things are immune to Fear - moreso then Sneak Attack.

[AstralFire]

Armblades are Bastard Swords.

Using 25 PB (the lowest version; 28 is a bit more common, and functionally similar to 4d6 drop lowest):

Str 14
Con 16
Dex 16
Int 11
Wis 6
Cha 6

Stat Point Raises:
4. Dex
8. Dex

Warforged Fighter 1: EWP Bastard Sword, Mithral Body
Warforged Fighter 2: TWF
Warforged 3: Oversized TWF
Warforged Fighter 4: Power Attack
Warforged Barbarian 2: Improved TWF

Alternately:

Warforged Warblade:

Str 14
Con 16
Dex 14
Int 11
Wis 10
Cha 6

Put a point in Int ASAP, the rest of points in Strength, grab the following maneuvers:
- Wolf Fang Strike
- Dancing Mongoose
- Raging Mongoose
- Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip

And grab a feat where you feel like it, making sure to pick up Power Attack. That's it.

Tome of Battle, where were you all of my life? :D

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

I just felt I had to contribute a little something. (http://nny2.deviantart.com/art/Warforged-Barbarian-47063394)

[AstralFire]

I just felt I had to contribute a little something. (http://nny2.deviantart.com/art/Warforged-Barbarian-47063394)

Hey, not bad at all.

[Alleine]

Wow, thanks for all the responses! This is awesome!

The flavor I was thinking of was totally not going to be a dancer type at all, but that looks better than what I was thinking. I can't wait to see my DM's face when a dancing, armbladed warforged flies into the enemy with awesome dance moves :smallbiggrin:

I'm a little iffy on using ToB since I haven't actually looked at it. I do have access to it though.
If it helps anyone, we've been getting a 32-point buy the past few campaigns.

[AstralFire]

Wow, thanks for all the responses! This is awesome!

The flavor I was thinking of was totally not going to be a dancer type at all, but that looks better than what I was thinking. I can't wait to see my DM's face when a dancing, armbladed warforged flies into the enemy with awesome dance moves :smallbiggrin:

I'm a little iffy on using ToB since I haven't actually looked at it. I do have access to it though.
If it helps anyone, we've been getting a 32-point buy the past few campaigns.

Well, the ToB version would not need Dervish, if that helps. I really like Dervish, but it seems kind of off for this one.

[Alleine]

My only problem with dervish is that its another one of those "only in light/no armor" classes. Meaning if I want the Adamantine Body feat I'll lose several class features, and I was really into the idea of having a heavy tank/protector type.

I guess I'll finally get a look at ToB. See what everyone's been raving about for so long.