Around the corner

[Edhelras]

A rulesy question here: The PCs are aware that enemies are approaching, and are barricaded inside a house. The enemies are waiting around the corner, out of sight of the doorway. They are probably making sufficient noise so that the PCs are aware that the enemies are somewhere close, although still unseen and hard to pinpoint exactly.

So the enemies (one of them a barbarian who can cover a lot of ground) suddenly burst around the corner and fall upon the PCs. Should this be counted as a surprise round, or as the first round of combat? The PCs aren't surprised that the enemies are coming, but they cannot know exactly when the enemies are coming. I guess they might have readied an action for that moment - but if you take a readied action in the first round of combat, is it still a surprise round? And are you still flat-footed until you've taken your readied action, or are you non-flat-footed from the moment you readied your action (in the Rules compendium, readying an action is listed as an "Action in combat").

[loky1109]

No it isn't surprise round.
And no they can't make ready action.

To make ready action you need to make your first turn.

[Zanos]

Surprise rounds only occur if you are unaware of your opponents when combat starts. If it worked like this every time the PCs, all geared up in full plate, march into a dungeon without bothering to hide and kick a door in, they'd get a surprise round.

You don't want to allow readied actions outside of combat. It comes with very weird implications.

[Edhelras]

(...)
And no they can't make ready action.

To make ready action you need to make your first turn.

Thanks! But is that so? I didn't find that specifically written in the rule compendium or PHB. I thought it would be reasonable that if you were aware that combat was about to commence, you might ready for your action if combat commences at that spot you're guarding?

But I guess this question is really about when combat starts - is it at the first attack action, or is it when combatants become aware of each other and of the other side's hostile intentions? Sorry for asking stupid questions, but I find this confusing.

However, I guess that in a simpler scenario, combat starts when two parties spot each other on a large flat plain, even though they're still far apart, they start moving towards each other using their speed, with the obvious intention of initiating combat. So should the initiative roll be startet at the moment that both parties are aware that there will be a fight (even if that fight is several rounds ahead?)

[loky1109]

Thanks! But is that so?


(in the Rules compendium, readying an action is listed as an "Action in combat").
Combat starts with Initiative check. Before Initiative check you can't made any "Action in combat" because you aren't in combat.


So should the initiative roll be startet at the moment that both parties are aware that there will be a fight (even if that fight is several rounds ahead?)
When initiative roll should be made is totally DM's decision, but I strongly don't recommend you make it "if that fight is several rounds ahead". You shouldn't roll initiative until order of actions became important.

[InvisibleBison]

There's an example on page 23 of the DMG that I think is helpful for this scenario. To summarize, the PCs hear a group of orcs in the next room, and one of the orcs looking through a crack in the door sees the PCs approaching. Combat begins when one of the PCs opens the door, with no surprise round. Even though the orcs weren't aware exactly when the PCs were going to burst into the room, they knew combat was imminent and so weren't surprised. I think the PCs in your scenario are in roughly the same position as the orcs in this example.

[Edhelras]

There's an example on page 23 of the DMG that I think is helpful for this scenario.

Thank you! This is exactly what I was looking for! I had forgotten about that section of the DMG. I very nicely relates to my issue.

[KillianHawkeye]

I agree with what the others have said, and I want to add that in this scenario the initiative should probably be rolled for all parties as soon as the enemy rounds the corner and becomes visible. He should not get to complete his movement since he is not until that moment in turn-by-turn actions. Just start off the combat immediately at that point which the hostilities have apparently been declared.

[ahyangyi]

I'd just allow them pre-buff and pick positions, but disallow surprise round or readied actions. And well-informed pre-buffs have their values anyways.