#1273 - Is she really Julia?

[Dante2001]

-I found it weird that Julia knew the ally was a "she" when Roy is just telling her that they found somebody
-She gets taken aback with not remembering some key shared memory

I've heard somebody mentioning that this is Sabine which seems plausible. I guess she can even imitate with some illusion the green aura?
Though imitating the spell itself would be more complex since its very unique and is based on Roy and Julia's connection.

Any ideas?

[Draconi Redfir]

also thought it was suspicious that she knew the ally was a She when Roy never told her. Could be a writer's error, but idk.

[ti'esar]

Ooh, good catch! I would bet against this just based on Occam's Razor, but it wouldn't be outside the bounds of possibility either.

[Draconi Redfir]

i would say at minimum, it suggests that Julia has been scrying on Roy for some reason. Maybe she's a little more invested about what's happening then she's putting on.

Until i get direct confirmation that it's not Julia though, I'm just going to assume it's Julia.

[npc revolution]

Great points! Some on the Order of the Stick subreddit are wondering the same thing in the discussion thread for #1273. The most common guess is that it is Roy's dad disguising himself for some reason.

[Xihirli]

It's also possible that Julia has studied Dwarven language enough to just identify that Minrah is a female Dwarf name.
By now I'd expect the entire party except Elan and Vaarsuvius could do the same for Azure City names.

[Fyraltari]

It's also possible that Julia has studied Dwarven language enough to just identify that Minrah is a female Dwarf name.
By now I'd expect the entire party except Elan and Vaarsuvius could do the same for Azure City names.

What dwarven language?

[Peelee]

Also Roy called Minrah "she" right after dropping the name, and neither he nor Julia called her a dwarf, so I'm not sure what that theory relates to.

[Metastachydium]

Also Roy called Minrah "she" right after dropping the name, and neither he nor Julia called her a dwarf, so I'm not sure what that theory relates to.

It's about first panel and Serini. But it's not really indicative of anything; there's an obvious time skip between no. 1191 and no. 1193 as evidenced by Julia already knowing what the exact deal is with Durkon, Redcloak, Thor and Big Purple (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1193.html). Roy likely told her about Serini in the same infodump we the readers skipped.

[Lord Torath]

I just figure as a popular, up-and-coming young woman, Julia naturally assumes any powerful new allies will also be women.

Kind of like how I, a cis-gender male, typically assume new characters will be male in the absence of any clarifying information. It's just the default assumption. (I'm not saying it's a good assumption, just that we generally assume new people will be like us.)

[Peelee]

It's about first panel and Serini.sorry, i was referring to this post:

It's also possible that Julia has studied Dwarven language enough to just identify that Minrah is a female Dwarf name.
By now I'd expect the entire party except Elan and Vaarsuvius could do the same for Azure City names.
It doesn't seem to refer to anything because Roy didn't say Minrah name until later in the strip and immediately uses "her" to refer to Minrah. To Julia studying Dwarven naming conventions doesn't seem to relate to anything at all.

[Resileaf]

Well, I might as well post here the theory I posted in the comic's thread.

The Julia we see is an illusion conjured by Qarr.

Qarr is able to teleport at will to and from the IFCC's offices, where they are shown to be constantly monitoring the situation so they can react to it at the right time. It's very possible once they see that the Order of the Stick has made contact with Serini that they would send Qarr to try to fool Roy into doing their bidding after their monitoring revealed that Roy's sister could get in contact with him (their fiendish Teevo probably has a setting for that). Because he isn't limited by Serini's defenses, the archfiends can easily send an imp agent right where he's needed and cause some trouble.

Now, importantly, Qarr is something of an idiot. He's a blabbermouth and tends to reveal things he didn't intend to because he constantly underestimates the intelligence of his foes. He's also very easily flustered when caught on a lie. With him not knowing a lot of Roy's relationship with Julia and their family life, he can easily get things wrong and be made to say things he didn't intend to reveal by trying to overcorrect and keep the deception going.

[Peelee]

Because he isn't limited by Serini's defenses

This portion intrigues me. Why would this be the case?

[KorvinStarmast]

Because he isn't limited by Serini's defenses, the archfiends can easily send an imp agent right where he's needed and cause some trouble. I don't understand 3.5e well enough to understand how that works. I am curious, though perhaps for a different reason than Peelee is since IIRC our dragonmod has ample 3.5e experience.

[Resileaf]

This portion intrigues me. Why would this be the case?

Most parts of the complex block teleportation, but I doubt that the portals at the entrances do (I don't believe it's been stated if actual planar travel like plane shift is also blocked (it probably is, but I'm not sure if going from one plane to another counts as going through the stone walls)). An imp can easily teleport past those (if he didn't just enter the complex with the gang when they first disarmed the teleportation trap) find the Order's location with scrying assistance from the IFCC, teleport in an out of trouble if needed, remain invisible and cast illusions when he sees Roy step out of Serini's hideout.

[Fyraltari]

Well, I might as well post here the theory I posted in the comic's thread.

The Julia we see is an illusion conjured by Qarr.

I don't recall Qarr ever using illusions. Can he do that?

[Dante2001]

I really like your take that this Julia is Qarr! He even trips his tongue in his usual manner and gets flustered when caught lying like you said. This fits nicely!

[Metastachydium]

Qarr is able to teleport at will to and from the IFCC's offices, where they are shown to be constantly monitoring the situation so they can react to it at the right time.

Unless you'd like to argue the Tomb is somewhere in the Nine Hells, I don't think the ability to teleport would help much with that. (Technically, imps don't even get Teleport at-will, but the Giant seems to have ignored that.)


I don't recall Qarr ever using illusions. Can he do that?

He's a high level sorcerer (capable of casting Charm Monster several times a day) and we haven't seen all his spells. So, maybe?

[Fyraltari]

He's a high level sorcerer (capable of casting Charm Monster several times a day) and we haven't seen all his spells. So, maybe?

Is he? I assumed that was just an Imp thing and he was low-level trash.

That said, if he can plausibly do it, then Qarr is my favourite suspect.

[Metastachydium]

Is he? I assumed that was just an Imp thing and he was low-level trash.

Yup. Imps are low-level trash; they only get, like, four SLAs by default and none of them is on that level. He also explicitly refers to himself as a "pretty good sorcerer" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0625.html) which is consistent with whatever spellslinging we see him do.

That said, I still think Julia just couldn't care less about Roy's graduation and Roy told him about Serini during the same short time skip where he explained the deal with Big Purple to her.

[Resileaf]

That said, I still think Julia just couldn't care less about Roy's graduation and Roy told him about Serini during the same short time skip where he explained the deal with Big Purple to her.

Which you won't see me say that it's impossible. Any theory any of us throw out there is pretty unlikely in the first place, I just felt like a smarty-pant telling it.

And if I end up being right, I get to brag about it like I just won the lottery. If not, no big loss.

[Metastachydium]

Which you won't see me say that it's impossible. Any theory any of us throw out there is pretty unlikely in the first place, I just felt like a smarty-pant telling it.

And if I end up being right, I get to brag about it like I just won the lottery. If not, no big loss.

Perfectly fair! I used to put out crazier stuff than that on a regular basis and I can proudly state that two of those arfe still not disproven!

[gbaji]

Well, since the main thread has devolved into a discussion about whether Julia should have used they instead of she... (it's like Camelot! Only without the towers).

I think that info about Serini was dumped between those two pages in the previous sending as well, and that's why Julia assumes it's Serini and uses "she". As I pointed out in the main thread, she also used Redcloak's name (title?) after the gap, despite Roy never having said the name in any panel to her previously. So it should be apparent that she learned a bunch of stuff, including the various players involved, during that info dump. We just didn't see it. It's reasonable to assume, given that Serini wrote the diary with the gate locations in it, and Serini is the one who built the gate they are going to, and Serini is the person they've been trying to contact via sending for several weeks now, that information about Serini would have been included in that dump.

I also think folks are reading a lot more into the body language and reactions of Julia than is really there. Doesn't preclude the possiblity of something else going on, but her behavior in this conversation is very similar to how she acted in the previous one. Same dess. Same speach patterns. Same reactions. Same awkward bits between her and Roy, which I see more as her maturing and both of them trying to become comfortable with communicating on a more equal mature footing.

As I mentioned in the main thread, every time we examine flaws in this conversation, we find that they line up with the same behavior/actions in the previous one. So anything that supports the idea that she's a fake Julia now also supports her being a fake before. But if we assume that she was a fake then, there are other holes that can't be explained (her detailed knowledge of things only a family member would know). Which leads us back to "she was real then, but is fake now". And we go around in circles again.

I think someone suggested the idea that Julia could be possessed (or even being forced in some way to communicate). That supports the conditions a bit better than someone with an illusion spell I think. It could explain her knowledge and behavior, while allowing for a "twist" that still involves the IFCC (or whomever, but they'd be the smart bet at this point). Again though, until there's something that happens that precludes this just being Julia, I'm going to assume it's just Julia.


I also see a lot of holes in the idea that it's Qarr. And yeah, having to assume he's got spells and powers we've never seen is just one (but possible though). The bigger issue if he's physically there (or anyone being physically there doing this) is the problem of actually getting there in the first place. Teleportation is blocked, and I'd assume that goes for gating as well. It's possible the IFCC could scry into the area, but getting someone inside would require physically bypassing the traps. Possible, I suppose, especially if you know they're there. But the issue is, how do you avoid detection? It's pretty unreasonable to asssume that Qarr could have slipped in with the party. I find it unlikely that between V and D, no one has some sort of truesight or see invisible spell going (and even if they forgot, a plan dependent on no one spotting you seems pretty weak). We have no evidence that Qarr has disable traps as an ability (but he could).

Again though. If you have the ability to scry there, the IFCC could also maybe use some sort of wizard eye thing to use illusions directly and from a distance. That avoids the teleportation issues, and the need to keep a physical person hidden, and allows for a "fake sending" that Roy might perceive as the real thing. Again though, I really don't see sufficient deviation between Julias current and previous sending behaviors to suggest that this is happening in the first place. So it's a lot of theorizing for something that has a much simpler explanation.

[Devlerbat]

It has just occurred to me that Julia hasn't made fun of Roy even once in this conversation so far. She didn't even call him a dork, loser, or anything like that. Even her "I guess you learned more at that fighter college" comment was more of a genuine realization than a deliberate teasing jab. I wouldn't even qualify her sarcastic line at the end of the current page since that didn't seem like anything intended to tease or mock Roy in a noticeable way either.


From what I remember of her previous interactions with Roy, this is very out of character for her. I would consider this a bigger clue than her knowing the ally was female or how the comic drew attention to her not remembering Roy's fighter college audition.

It is big enough of one that I am not sure if Roy has actually figured it out and just isn't letting it on or not. I feel like he may have revealed too much for that to be the case, but I'm not sure.

Either way this definitely reads as an imposter that is trying to act like a sister while having no idea what their actual dynamic is. I honestly don't think this is Eugene since he has no reason to deceive Roy like this. Roy didn't exactly reject his dad's call last time. He rejected the advice, but that is because of its actual contents, not because of the source of said advice. The IFCC, just from being magically powerful enough and us knowing they have been scrying on the OotS, seem like the only other people that could even potentially know about Julia's ability to hijack the Blood Oath for communication (let alone what the blood oath is.)

[ti'esar]

It has just occurred to me that Julia hasn't made fun of Roy even once in this conversation so far. She didn't even call him a dork, loser, or anything like that. Even her "I guess you learned more at that fighter college" comment was more of a genuine realization than a deliberate teasing jab. I wouldn't even qualify her sarcastic line at the end of the current page since that didn't seem like anything intended to tease or mock Roy in a noticeable way either.


From what I remember of her previous interactions with Roy, this is very out of character for her. I would consider this a bigger clue than her knowing the ally was female or how the comic drew attention to her not remembering Roy's fighter college audition.

It is big enough of one that I am not sure if Roy has actually figured it out and just isn't letting it on or not. I feel like he may have revealed too much for that to be the case, but I'm not sure.

Either way this definitely reads as an imposter that is trying to act like a sister while having no idea what their actual dynamic is. I honestly don't think this is Eugene since he has no reason to deceive Roy like this. Roy didn't exactly reject his dad's call last time. He rejected the advice, but that is because of its actual contents, not because of the source of said advice. The IFCC, just from being magically powerful enough and us knowing they have been scrying on the OotS, seem like the only other people that could even potentially know about Julia's ability to hijack the Blood Oath for communication (let alone what the blood oath is.)

I will say while I thought that could easily be accounted for by Julia having grown up a bit and the Fairly Important nature of the conversation.... I just went back and looked at 1272, and specifically the middle segment with Roy admitting making up nonsense to mess with her. Look at the reaction: a :smalleek: and a "?!" tag - that looks like pretty obvious shorthand for a level of surprise that does seem like it'd make a lot more sense from, yeah, someone completely unfamiliar with their actual dynamic.

[KorvinStarmast]

That said, I still think Julia just couldn't care less about Roy's graduation and Roy told him about Serini during the same short time skip where he explained the deal with Big Purple to her. Is the 'him' in this sentence referring to Eugene, Qarr, or Julia? :smallconfused:

[gbaji]

It has just occurred to me that Julia hasn't made fun of Roy even once in this conversation so far. She didn't even call him a dork, loser, or anything like that. Even her "I guess you learned more at that fighter college" comment was more of a genuine realization than a deliberate teasing jab. I wouldn't even qualify her sarcastic line at the end of the current page since that didn't seem like anything intended to tease or mock Roy in a noticeable way either.

She hasn't treated him that way since Panel three of this strip (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1193.html). Since that point, she has switched to taking him seriously, insisting that she can handle "adult" problems (the whole "I'm seventeen" bit as well), and offering to help, then getting infromation, and providing advice. That's the point that their relationship changed.

The current conversation is consistent with the previous one in this regard.


From what I remember of her previous interactions with Roy, this is very out of character for her. I would consider this a bigger clue than her knowing the ally was female or how the comic drew attention to her not remembering Roy's fighter college audition.

Again though, we actually see the transition in the previous interaction with Roy. What would be far more inconsistent is if someone was faking Julia and acted the way she acted back in Cliffport instead of continuing to act the way she did for the last 3/4ths of the previous conversation they had. Having Julia act consistently as she did in the previous conversation either means that the faker also faked that conversation, or were able to spy on it and are faking her behavior based on that (in which case there is no inconsistency with which to base our assumption on) *or* it's just Julia, being forced to grow up a bit because of the seriousness of what's going on, and both of them somewhat fumbling around with the new paradigm.

I think the last option makes the most sense. The sheer number of assumptions and actions we have to insert (absence any really strong evidence) in order for this to be anyone but Juila makes those other options significantly less likely.

Not impossible, mind you, but I'm just not seeing enough there.


I will say while I thought that could easily be accounted for by Julia having grown up a bit and the Fairly Important nature of the conversation.... I just went back and looked at 1272, and specifically the middle segment with Roy admitting making up nonsense to mess with her. Look at the reaction: a :smalleek: and a "?!" tag - that looks like pretty obvious shorthand for a level of surprise that does seem like it'd make a lot more sense from, yeah, someone completely unfamiliar with their actual dynamic.

What is she surpised by though? That Roy hit her with a burn? Anyone familiar with Julia from Cliffport, and using that to model their "fake Julia", would not be surprised at all. They would think that was normal, and respond in kind. The very fact that she has this reaction is the best evidence that this Julia is, at the very least, the same person Roy spoke to in the previous sending on the ship (or someone who has knowledge of that conversation).

She's behaving exactly as that Julia would behave, not the Julia we saw back in Cliffport. So the evidence she's a fake is that she's acting like her current self instead of a younger version of herself? That kinda doesn't make a lot of sense. Unless I'm missing something?

[Roland Itiative]

Would the IFCC even need to scout the party like that? They seem to have pretty strong scrying, they could have gotten most of that information first-hand.

[Metastachydium]

Is the 'him' in this sentence referring to Eugene, Qarr, or Julia? :smallconfused:

Maybe it's a typo and what I actually meant to write was her; or maybe it's a clue that I'm not exactly who you think I am either. [Ominous orchestral note.]

[Somniloquist]

So I've been reading this thread and the main one, and it almost seems like nobody got the joke in the last panel - that Roy doesn't realize that a minor difference between two swords is something only a fighter would find funny. Of course Julia doesn't remember the details of Roy's college admissions test, she never cared about that!

[Metastachydium]

So I've been reading this thread and the main one, and it almost seems like nobody got the joke in the last panel - that Roy doesn't realize that a minor difference between two swords is something only a fighter would find funny. Of course Julia doesn't remember the details of Roy's college admissions test, she never cared about that!

Wel, um, like,


I still think Julia just couldn't care less about Roy's graduation

[Peelee]

So I've been reading this thread and the main one, and it almost seems like nobody got the joke in the last panel - that Roy doesn't realize that a minor difference between two swords is something only a fighter would find funny. Of course Julia doesn't remember the details of Roy's college admissions test, she never cared about that!

I'm pretty sure a lot of people got the joke. There's just not much discussion to be had there.

[johnbragg]

I don't understand 3.5e well enough to understand how that works. I am curious, though perhaps for a different reason than Peelee is since IIRC our dragonmod has ample 3.5e experience.

I think the Giant is way past caring about the details of 3.5 rules and lore. If the plot wants Qarr to go to point X, the IFCC can teleport Qarr to point X, Serini's wards notwithstanding

The IFCC are powerful enough that it's entirely plausible they can bypass mortal spellcasters' wards, even epic level spellcasters. So it's plausible enough.

[Metastachydium]

The IFCC are powerful enough that it's entirely plausible they can bypass mortal spellcasters' wards, even epic level spellcasters. So it's plausible enough.

I mean, they absolutely could scry into a Cloistered area.

[johnbragg]

I mean, they absolutely could scry into a Cloistered area.

I thought I deleted. But as someone linked above, Super-Vaarsuvius was able to prevent Qarr from teleporting. So I'm not sure that Qarr can just handwave Serini's wards. The IFCC themselves probably, but not a minion like Qarr

[Metastachydium]

I thought I deleted. But as someone linked above, Super-Vaarsuvius was able to prevent Qarr from teleporting. So I'm not sure that Qarr can just handwave Serini's wards. The IFCC themselves probably, but not a minion like Qarr

That was regular V, with the common old Dimensional Anchor spell, which only reinforces your point.

[Peelee]

Also the IFCC can't act directly on the mortal plane anyway.

[Metastachydium]

Hrm. One must wonder how capable Randy (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0385.html) might be on that front.

[Resileaf]

Do remember that the teleportation traps behind each door are thin portals that activate when someone physically passes through them and that if you teleported or dimension doored beyond them, you would not trigger them.

[WanderingMist]

Now that I'm reading the strip again...Panel 4 is too Julia to be anyone else. It doesn't make sense for Sabine to say that, since her employers don't want either side winning, and Eugene would be smart enough to realize Xykon couldnt be stopped with a simple anti-magic field.

[gbaji]

I think the Giant is way past caring about the details of 3.5 rules and lore. If the plot wants Qarr to go to point X, the IFCC can teleport Qarr to point X, Serini's wards notwithstanding

But he does care about making his own world rules consistent. And it's not Serini's wards that block teleportation. It's the stone the hollow is made up of, that blocks all means to teleport, ghost form, etc through it. That does not preclude the IFCC having some epic powers that may allow for it anyway, but it's not as easy as a minor minion using regular teleport to do so.


The IFCC are powerful enough that it's entirely plausible they can bypass mortal spellcasters' wards, even epic level spellcasters. So it's plausible enough.

Absolutely. It's plausible. But with that level of power *anything* becomes plausible. The question is whether this one thing being speculated is any more likely to be what's actually going on that any of an infiinite number of other things the IFCC could be doing instead.

I also doubt the IFCC would use their own power (or any source of power at that level) so directly and in such a blunt manner as "force a teleport into an area right next to the gate". The gods may not be able to interfere directly, but it's a very very good bet that they're all watching closely. Any use of that level of magic would presumably alert them all. At the end of the day, for all that they are highly ranked and powered outsiders, they still are well below the gods in the outer plains heirarchy, and fall directly under the purview of several of the evil deities. They'd get pretty rapidly curbstomped doing something so direct.

If they are meddling in some way with the whole Julia/Roy communications, they'd be more subtle. The previously proposed idea of using some form of possession to control Julia and then use her to send to Roy to try to influence things would be more their style, and would be far less likely to result in divine wrath. I'm still not convinced of that either, but it makes a lot more sense and matches far better with what we've seen than that someone has physically teleported there and is doing something to manipulate this communication on site. It's frankly easier, has less risk, and you have the benefit of using the actual Julia to do things, so you can use her own memories and knowledge to trick Roy (assuming that's the goal).

[KillianHawkeye]

With how the newest comic ended, I now agree with whoever said that it's Eugene in disguise. That outburst about being unable to help, being stuck "up here" and family obligations...

And I'm pretty sure Eugene was an illusionist, so disguising himself would be pretty trivial.

[Mike Havran]

Put me down for "Julia is being used as a vessel for IFCC"

[KorvinStarmast]

Put me down for "It's Julia" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1274.html)

[Devlerbat]

There is the sass now. With update 1274 I am now convinced that this is Julia.

[Gurgeh]

On the contrary, I'm 100% convinced with 1274 that it's Eugene doing a decent impression and occasionally slipping. Bottom left panel refers to them "being stuck up here" and the delay after "my" makes it pretty clear that the original phrasing was "my burden" rather than "my family's burden".

EDIT: I'm obviously not the first to draw this conclusion, shows you that it's worth reading the thread instead of jumping to the latest message.

[Devlerbat]

My issue with this being Eugene is that he has no reason to do so. While they disagreed with their last conversation about what to do with the Hel situation it didn't end with Roy suggesting that he would refuse to hear his father's advice outright. Which is something he would be risking by needlessly tricking Roy like this. My only suspicion was if this was the IFCC or some other faction as unlikely as that may be. That suspicion has been dashed.

[ti'esar]

On the contrary, I'm 100% convinced with 1274 that it's Eugene doing a decent impression and occasionally slipping. Bottom left panel refers to them "being stuck up here" and the delay after "my" makes it pretty clear that the original phrasing was "my burden" rather than "my family's burden".

EDIT: I'm obviously not the first to draw this conclusion, shows you that it's worth reading the thread instead of jumping to the latest message.

If those were slipups on Eugene's part, though, they'd be highly unusually selfless slipups given his past attitude towards sticking his family with the Blood Oath. I lean now much more strongly towards thinking this really is Julia - I suspect the hesitation was actually a last-second word swap for possibly either "my father's burden" (more openly critical for Eugene than she'd want to be) or "my brother's burden" (more openly affectionate for Roy than she'd want to be).

[WanderingMist]

Eugene wouldn't have paused before saying family is the problem with it being Eugene. He absolutely shifted all the responsibility onto his kids and does not consider the burden to only be on himself.

[Dante2001]

#1272 second to last panel.

"Does that mean you've done nothing but fix something that wasn't a problem this morning?".

That smells also like Eugene. Granted Julia is also sometimes a bit of a jerk, but it feels too strong there.

Edit: As for why Eugene is impersonating Julia, its because last conv didn't go too well.

Roy: —then, why are you here, exactly?
Eugene: Do I need a reason to come for a visit?
Roy: At this point in our relationship? Yes. Especially since you just said you regretted having a family.

Maybe Eugene is starting to regret to treat his family this bad.

[Devlerbat]

#1272 second to last panel.

"Does that mean you've done nothing but fix something that wasn't a problem this morning?".

That smells also like Eugene. Granted Julia is also sometimes a bit of a jerk, but it feels too strong there.

Edit: As for why Eugene is impersonating Julia, its because last conv didn't go too well.

Roy: —then, why are you here, exactly?
Eugene: Do I need a reason to come for a visit?
Roy: At this point in our relationship? Yes. Especially since you just said you regretted having a family.

Maybe Eugene is starting to regret to treat his family this bad.

But his reason for calling would be the same as Julia's reason for calling anyways. And impersonating your daughter to trick your son doesn't seem like the act of someone that wants to repair their strained relationship with said son. At least not a smart one.

[brian 333]

But his reason for calling would be the same as Julia's reason for calling anyways. And impersonating your daughter to trick your son doesn't seem like the act of someone that wants to repair their strained relationship with said son. At least not a smart one.

I don't think Eugene wants to repair his relationship with his son. I think Eugene wants to control Roy through manipulation, guilt, and a magical trap he created which forces his offspring to complete a project he started and abandoned before discovering that it also trapped him.

If Eugene had managed to get past the Pearly Gates, you can bet your last copper piece that he would be happily ignoring Roy right now, blood oath or not.

[Metastachydium]

I don't think Eugene wants to repair his relationship with his son. I think Eugene wants to control Roy through manipulation, guilt, and a magical trap he created which forces his offspring to complete a project he started and abandoned before discovering that it also trapped him.

If Eugene had managed to get past the Pearly Gates, you can bet your last copper piece that he would be happily ignoring Roy right now, blood oath or not.

Yup. It's not even "I think" material, if you ask me. Eugene quite explicitly wants one thing: to move on into a cozy afterlife he doesn't deserve.

[Devlerbat]

I don't think Eugene wants to repair his relationship with his son. I think Eugene wants to control Roy through manipulation, guilt, and a magical trap he created which forces his offspring to complete a project he started and abandoned before discovering that it also trapped him.

If Eugene had managed to get past the Pearly Gates, you can bet your last copper piece that he would be happily ignoring Roy right now, blood oath or not.
Sure, but that isn't what the person I was quoting was suggesting and how does impersonating Julia help him do that anyways? Especially since Roy is already trying to destroy Xykon for good and isn't going to just outright ignore all of Eugene's advice (just the parts that get innocent people killed and he is ignoring that same advice when it comes from Julia). To risk alienating Roy even further than he already has would be to Eugene's detriment and he gets nothing out of it that he doesn't already have going for him.

Point is, it doesn't make sense for this to be Eugene either way.

[KorvinStarmast]

"Does that mean you've done nothing but fix something that wasn't a problem this morning?".

That smells also like Eugene. Granted Julia is also sometimes a bit of a jerk, but it feels too strong there. She is Eugene's kid, followed in his footsteps as a wizard, and inherited some of his habits, style, and attitudes. Who saw that coming? :smallconfused:

Maybe Eugene is starting to regret to treat his family this bad. Interesting thought, we'll see if Rich shows that in later strips.

I don't think Eugene wants to repair his relationship with his son. Rich has done things which fooled us before. Maybe he does...but that will need to be shown "on screen".

[Ionathus]

I just figure as a popular, up-and-coming young woman, Julia naturally assumes any powerful new allies will also be women.

Kind of like how I, a cis-gender male, typically assume new characters will be male in the absence of any clarifying information. It's just the default assumption. (I'm not saying it's a good assumption, just that we generally assume new people will be like us.)

ding ding ding, we have a winner. I agree completely: the most straightforward example is that Julia either knew already (because there's an unspoken recap between #1272 and #1273), or she just assumed unspecified people would be like her. It's an entirely reasonable thing for her to do. That is, if she did guess, which I personally don't even think she did. I think Roy filled her in between strips.

I feel like I've had this type of conversation a dozen times on this forum before, and my position remains the same: is it not impossible for Julia to be an impostor, given the minor discrepancies we've seen? I suppose. Would that be interesting and worth the convoluted explanation to get us there? And would it be a better scene than the current one? I'm not seeing it.

[Peelee]

ding ding ding, we have a winner.

I didn't get any prize for suggesting that like two weeks ago:smalltongue:

[Ionathus]

I didn't get any prize for suggesting that like two weeks ago:smalltongue:

Yes well, you see, the thing you have to understand is that I wasn't paying very much attention.

but this ain't no zero sum game, so ding ding ding for Peelee too :smallcool:

[Peelee]

Yes well, you see, the thing you have to understand is that I wasn't paying very much attention.

but this ain't no zero sum game, so ding ding ding for Peelee too :smallcool:

That's all I ever wanted - recognition that I am the greatest.

[Sir_Dr_D]

I think people are over analyzing. I just took things to mean that there was dialog between 1272 and 1273 that wasn't on panel. As in Roy gave a brief summary on what happened, and 'we found an ally now' is the conclusion.

For a character we now so little about and who is important to Roy, it seems more important from a story perspective to flesh out Julia's character then to have a fake Julia subplot. And if she was fake, Roy should be able to tell easily. You would think he would at least give a statement like 'You seem a little off. Are you okay?' I don't think even Sabine could fool someone's close friend or relative.

Edit: Also you would expect Roy to say something like 'I never told you it was a She' . I see little reason to be suspicious unless Roy is. Roy knows her better then us.

[brian 333]

That's all I ever wanted - recognition that I am the greatest.

Sheldon, Peelee, everyone is the greatest.


I think people are over analyzing. I just took things to mean that there was dialog between 1272 and 1273 that wasn't on panel. As in Roy gave a brief summary on what happened, and 'we found an ally now' is the conclusion.

For a character we now so little about and who is important to Roy, it seems more important from a story perspective to flesh out Julia's character then to have a fake Julia subplot. And if she was fake, Roy should be able to tell easily. You would think he would at least give a statement like 'You seem a little off. Are you okay?' I don't think even Sabine could fool someone's close friend or relative.

Edit: Also you would expect Roy to say something like 'I never told you it was a She' . I see little reason to be suspicious unless Roy is. Roy knows her better then us.

I kind of agree here. If Roy doesn't catch Julia in a not-Julia mistake, it probably really is Julia.

I can see how it could be Eugene. I don't see what Eugene brings to the table at this point, in much the same way Ian and Tarquin are basically used up. I do not doubt The Giant's ability to make use of any or all of the Dad Squad, and make it make sense thematically. I just don't see how any of them would bring new elements to the story, and I see how they could drag the story back to already trampled ground.

Sabine is obviously not finished. Her bosses have a hot iron in the fire and she is their connection to it. I do not see how her immitation of Julia could be good enough to fool Roy.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. As always, I would love to see The Giant prove me wrong again. I hate when a story is predictable, and I hate when it becomes random just to create an 'unexpected twist' that does not flow from the story.

The Giant has managed to keep me guessing for over 1200 episodes, so I trust that whatever he has in mind will be fun.

Edit: I now realize that we have not heard from Vaarsuvius' <parent>. Julia must be Vaarsuvius' <parent> or <other parent>. It makes perfect sense, has synchronicity, and is an unexpected twist.

[Ruck]

I kind of agree here. If Roy doesn't catch Julia in a not-Julia mistake, it probably really is Julia.

I dunno. I feel like it's something you're only going to check if you keep an eye out for it, or if something in the behavior is just flagrantly out of character. Given that Julia apparently takes after Eugene quite a bit, I suspect even blatant Eugene behavior (other than, say, knowing something Julia would have no way of knowing about) would probably just draw a "Wow, Julia really is growing up into Dad" reaction from Roy.


I can see how it could be Eugene. I don't see what Eugene brings to the table at this point, in much the same way Ian and Tarquin are basically used up.

Eh, unlike those two, Eugene's story kicks off the Order on its quest and it's still unfinished business. I mean, I imagine Roy doesn't think Eugene brings much to the table, but that doesn't mean there isn't a role for him to play in the story nor that he doesn't have his own reasons for wanting to get involved, a few of which have been summed up nicely in this thread. (The Doylist might also say that Roy is the main-est of the main characters, and so it makes more sense his family is still involved as we head toward the climax.)


Edit: I now realize that we have not heard from Vaarsuvius' <parent>. Julia must be Vaarsuvius' <parent> or <other parent>. It makes perfect sense, has synchronicity, and is an unexpected twist.

We haven't seen Belkar's either. I want to say Rich said something once about not wanting to inadvertently explore differences in culture between humanoid parenting and human parenting, but I'm not totally sure. (And, yes, I know he did that with the dwarves, but obviously he did have something to say there, or, perhaps more accurately, Durkon's mother is a particularly unique person who had a major impact on shaping Durkon into who he is in a way that perhaps Belkar's and Vaarsuvius' parents didn't.)

[Precure]

New strip convinced me more than ever it's neither Julia nor IFCC but Eugene himself since strip 1192. Looking back to Julia's "panic attacks" since her first appearance in ghost form:

Panel 6: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1192.html) She panics when Roy asked her to teach the same spell to V, and makes up a excuse that her spell is somehow linked to Blood Oath, which seems strange in hindsight considering she claimed to create it as part of her academic studies.

Panel 5: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1193.html) She was totally nonchalant about the possibility that earth might be destroyed. When Roy confused by that, she panics and then exclaims an unusual trust on Roy's capabilities to not let that happen, which, again, seems strange.

Panel 10: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1193.html) She overreacts to Roy when he mentioned about the possibility of her direct involvement, and overcorrects him that she's only interested in giving her advice.

Panel 7: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1272.html) She panics when Roy reveals that he tricked her about how he knows that she's here.

Panel 12: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1273.html) She panicked when Roy interrogated her about the audition, implying she had no idea what happened there and whether she supposed to remember it or not.

I think it's probably Eugene himself and he's pretending to be his daughter. Why? Because at his last visit, Roy rebuked him and was unwilling to talk to him due to Eugene's past misdeeds (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1048.html). Roy also wished his sword to "pawn these visits to Julia", and Eugene is doing just that, using "Julia" to talk his son.

[Peelee]

Sheldon

You misspelled Bender.

[ti'esar]

Eh, unlike those two, Eugene's story kicks off the Order on its quest and it's still unfinished business. I mean, I imagine Roy doesn't think Eugene brings much to the table, but that doesn't mean there isn't a role for him to play in the story nor that he doesn't have his own reasons for wanting to get involved, a few of which have been summed up nicely in this thread. (The Doylist might also say that Roy is the main-est of the main characters, and so it makes more sense his family is still involved as we head toward the climax.)


Also, when I said that it'd be pretty uncharacteristically selfless for Eugene to slip up in the way that he's supposedly slipped up? There's an outside chance that may be the whole point. I've been a advocate for the theory that Eugene's consistently unsympathetic portrayal is setting up for, at the end, him not actually getting into LG Heaven even once the Blood Oath is fulfilled. But it's conceivably possible that's not the case, and if not, having Eugene show actual remorse for getting his family stuck with the oath seems like a perfectly logical plot point.

(Note that, again, I now personally am confident this is Julia. This line of thought just occurred to me as a potential counterargument.)

[KorvinStarmast]

I think people are over analyzing.
*checks calendar*
Yeah, its Tuesday, and GitP forumites are overanalyzing. Only happens on days ending with the letter "y"

[Peelee]

*checks calendar*
Yeah, its Tuesday, and GitP forumites are overanalyzing. Only happens on days ending with the letter "y"

So yesterday and today were scheduled but you're saying we shouldn't expect it tomorrow? :smallamused:

[KorvinStarmast]

So yesterday and today were scheduled but you're saying we shouldn't expect it tomorrow? :smallamused: I do expect it, since tomorrow it will become today, again. :smallwink: Deja Vu (https://youtu.be/YCs6Tpd5sFQ)

[Peelee]

I do, since tomorrow it will be today, again. :smallwink:

Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow, I see!

[Ruck]

I've been a advocate for the theory that Eugene's consistently unsympathetic portrayal is setting up for, at the end, him not actually getting into LG Heaven even once the Blood Oath is fulfilled.

Oh, I'm rather confident that will be the case. I think Rich knows what he's doing, and I think he knows that he's portraying Eugene consistently in every single scene he appears in as selfish, self-aggrandizing, shirking responsibility, and entirely unconcerned with the needs of others.

[brian 333]

You misspelled Bender.

Can I blame this one on autocorrect?

[Peelee]

Can I blame this one on autocorrect?

Oh, always!

[TaiLiu]

I was really into the not-Julia thesis till 1274. Now it just seems like it's Julia.

I wonder if the reason why people think it's not Julia is that it's just a lot of vaguely plot-related talking for the past couple of months, and so people think there must be some kind of secret reason behind it. It's why I thought it was not-Julia at first.

[Riftwolf]

Although I don't think it's Eugene, Julia's speech in panel 10 gives me pause. 'stuck up here' and 'something that's my... Family's burden' feel like slips.
Whether it was Julia who messaged Roy on the ship, however, is less clear.

[elros]

Oh, I'm rather confident that will be the case. I think Rich knows what he's doing, and I think he knows that he's portraying Eugene consistently in every single scene he appears in as selfish, self-aggrandizing, shirking responsibility, and entirely unconcerned with the needs of others.
Eugene already vowed that he would never see his family in the afterlife, so I agree that the Giant will likely not have him enter the LG plane. However, I suspect that the story will reveal a multiverse, and Eugene will end up in another universe instead of a in a different plane in this universe.

[Ruck]

Eugene already vowed that he would never see his family in the afterlife, so I agree that the Giant will likely not have him enter the LG plane. However, I suspect that the story will reveal a multiverse, and Eugene will end up in another universe instead of a in a different plane in this universe.
Why? What would that add to the story?

[brian 333]

Why? What would that add to the story?

Some of us believe the OotS will solve the current crisis by helping The Snarl create its own universe while the gods close theirs permanently. If Roy and company go to the new universe and Eugene remains behind, the story will be resolved.

[Ruck]

Some of us believe the OotS will solve the current crisis by helping The Snarl create its own universe while the gods close theirs permanently. If Roy and company go to the new universe and Eugene remains behind, the story will be resolved.
This reply leaves me with even more questions. What do you mean "close theirs permanently"? How would that work? Are the Order just going to leave everyone they know behind? Wouldn't the new universe be under threat from the Snarl? etc.

(It also doesn't answer my original question, which is "How does this make for a better, more satisfying story and ending?")

[gbaji]

This reply leaves me with even more questions. What do you mean "close theirs permanently"? How would that work? Are the Order just going to leave everyone they know behind? Wouldn't the new universe be under threat from the Snarl? etc.

(It also doesn't answer my original question, which is "How does this make for a better, more satisfying story and ending?")

Well, it's all quite simple. Everything that's ever happened in the OoTS world is really just a cosmic eye-blink during the big bang creation event in the "real world", but along the way some bits of that proto-universe gained some sentience (call them "gods") and decided to stop the natural process and create some other small temporary reality outside the 'real universe'. The Snarl isn't really evil or destructive at all. It's just a natural part of the process and they're resisting it and imagining it as a horrific deity killing monstrocity (think "The Beast" in that SG:Atlantis episode). What they need to do is allow the snarl to destroy not just the prime material plane (which isn't really real anyway) but also the astral plane, and the outer planes, the gods, etc. Only then can the cosmic process get back on track and reality really begin.

Or... not. This is a 3.5 ed D&D parody world, and it will remain that after the story is done. The basic structure of the D&D cosmology will also remain, in its current form, and with all the people currently contained within it (well, except for maybe Belkar. I think he has a date with the snarl).

I do happen to believe that the snarl isn't quite what the gods think it is, but I don't think the story will end with a new multiverse or whatever.

[Ruck]

Yeah, "or not" indeed. I know we don't know everything about the Snarl, and I think we will certainly find out the meaning of the planet within, but I don't know what that will look like.

I'm not opposed to theorizing, but I think about the purpose of the story, the themes of the story, and what would be dramatically satisfying a lot. And I think the resolution of the story will be in line with those elements. So when people have a theory and I don't see how the theory aligns with elements, I have questions about it, because I want to understand the how and why better.

[WanderingMist]

Julia's outburst when Roy says that it won't be his problem when he's dead doesn't really stack up with Eugene being perfectly happy to let the world end, which the gods will certainly cause if the order fails, so he can actually move on.

[Riftwolf]

The more I look at panel 10, the more convinced I am that Julia's messages are in fact from Eugene. If they are, it means Eugene has something important to say but he knows Roy won't listen to it if it's coming from his dad.
Worst case scenario could be he's found out Blood Oath souls are excluded from the afterlife even after the world's destroyed, so now he's got a very selfish reason to keep the world intact.
Mid-case scenario is Eugene's realised that he's jeopardizing his daughter's existence and he's had an uncharacteristic change of heart (to show he's not a completely one-note curmudgeon)
Best case scenario: I think Eugene's got something vital to tell Roy, something that makes this plot point important to the story, and that Eugene knows Roy won't even consider without some subterfuge.

[Ron Miel]

I'll bet 50 Quatloos that it's really Julia.

[brian 333]

I'll bet 50 Quatloos that it's really Julia.

I'd bet one quatloo against just for the chance to win big, but I already owe the Bank of Fyaralti for a few unsecured loans.

I think it is Julia, but I can see how Eugene is possible. I don't see any possibility it is Sabine, Quar, Jimminy the Polearms Vendor, or anyone else.

[Fyraltari]

I already owe the Bank of Fyaralti for a few unsecured loans.

Watch out, misspelling usernames may cause interest rates to go up.

[Peelee]

Watch out, misspelling usernames may cause interest rates to go up.

Dang, I need to follow your lead on that.

[pendell]

2 cubic meters of Unobtanium that it's really Julia. How's the bets stand?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[brian 333]

What's the exchange rate of unobtanium to eggs? I got eggs.

[Ionathus]

I'll bet 50 Quatloos that it's really Julia.

I'll take that bet.

There are just so many little slip-ups now that make a lot of sense if it's Eugene talking. Especially "stuck up here" getting extra attention, and "my...family's burden".

[Kish]

Ten gold says it's Eugene.

I am prepared to bet against unobtanium but not quatloos (got no use for them).

[Fish]

I am in the Eugene camp, particularly because of the line Roy said: “Then I’ll be dead and it won’t be my problem any more,” and the angry reply “That’s easy for you to say!” Why would Julia say that?

In answer to the question “why would Eugene be back? What new information does it provide?” I submit that Eugene may know something now that he didn’t know then.

When last they spoke, Roy told Eugene that if the world blows up, Xykon dies, and Eugene’s oath is fulfilled. Eugene flew off, seemingly happy in the knowledge that even if Roy lost, there would be no downside to Eugene himself.

But suppose that Eugene since learned that this may not actually be the case. Then hypothetically he would be even more desperate to find a resolution where Roy causes Xykon’s death and not some global catastrophe.

[Peelee]

I am in the Eugene camp, particularly because of the line Roy said: “Then I’ll be dead and it won’t be my problem any more,” and the angry reply “That’s easy for you to say!” Why would Julia say that?

Devils advocate: "Because I'll still be alive and it'll be my problem!" Or, alternatively, "I want to stay alive!" Both could reasonably be assumed as an understood additive that Julia could say, depending on if you think the world would be unmade immediately or not upon Roy's failure. Neither of which would apply. To Eugene.

[gbaji]

Devils advocate: "Because I'll still be alive and it'll be my problem!" Or, alternatively, "I want to stay alive!" Both could reasonably be assumed as an understood additive that Julia could say, depending on if you think the world would be unmade immediately or not upon Roy's failure. Neither of which would apply. To Eugene.

Yeah. That's probably the weakest back and forth point to make here. That reaction is 100% compatible with Julia. She's basically faced with the very adult reality that if Roy fails, it will either "become her problem", or that she and everyone else will die. That's a heck of a lot to heap on a 17 year or person. So yeah, Roy saying "it wont be my problem", includes the implication of "it'll be yours". Yikes!

I kinda lean back and forth on this one. I could see Eugene doing this (and the latest strip does have some hints in that direction), but I also can see the whole thing just as a scene showing Julia maturing and both Roy and her trying to settle into that new dynamic.

I think sometimes readers are trying to look too hard for direct story based meaning in everything. But some scenes are just about character development. Not every single thing has to be plot relevant.

[Fish]

… I also can see the whole thing just as a scene showing Julia maturing and both Roy and her trying to settle into that new dynamic.
I would buy that, except there hasn’t been much evidence of any Roy-Julia story to be worked out in the last 1200 strips, and the last book seems like an unlikely place to start. The Roy-Eugene dynamic is very much part of the story since the beginning and there are unfinished threads that should probably be worked out before the climax — among them, Eugene’s callous selfishness.

[gbaji]

I would buy that, except there hasn’t been much evidence of any Roy-Julia story to be worked out in the last 1200 strips, and the last book seems like an unlikely place to start. The Roy-Eugene dynamic is very much part of the story since the beginning and there are unfinished threads that should probably be worked out before the climax — among them, Eugene’s callous selfishness.

Seems unlikely that Eugene is going to change, so there's not much to "develop" there. It's pretty much at "Roy succeeds and Eugene gets to move on" or "he doesn't, and he doesn't". I mean, that doesn't preclude Eugene wanting to participate and using a Julia illusion to do so, but that doesn't give us a whole lot of character development potential.

Having Julia take on that same role in the story allows Rich to show the audience the same info via "idea bouncing" conversations, while also allowing for actual development of both Julia and Roy. Also gives us a bookend situation where we can see a family relation for Roy that doesn't have to be antagonistic, like his relationship with his father.

Developing Julia from the popular-girl/airhead stereotype we saw in Cliffport, to someone who is actively participating in trying to help save the world? I think there's value in that all by itself. Could there be more going on here? Absolutely. I've learned to never rule anything out in this strip.

[Gurgeh]

Alternatively, the ploy would be consistent with a scenario where Eugene has belatedly realised that he was wrong, wants to do his best to help, but is wholly unequipped to do so and is falling back on unhealthy habits. (I'm not necessarily wedded to this interpretation but I think it would be an interesting direction for the thread to go).

[brian 333]

I can see how Eugene may wish to butt in. I can see that what we see now could be foreshadowing. The question is, what is being foreshadowed?

As a writer of meagre skill, I am always asking, "What does this add to the story?" OotS is not a sitcom that rehashes the same old jokes over and over. Eugene jokes have been done. Roy's business with Eugene is over. I don't see how Eugene adds to the story at this point.

And I admit that I could be wrong.

However, Julia, and Julia and Roy, potentially does add to the story. There are interpersonal growth and potentially additional membership in the OotS issues that come into play.

I lean heavily toward this being exactly what it looks like.

[gbaji]

However, Julia, and Julia and Roy, potentially does add to the story. There are interpersonal growth and potentially additional membership in the OotS issues that come into play.

I lean heavily toward this being exactly what it looks like.

Julia is also Roy's only remaining family (alive anyway). Resolving familiy conflicts has been a side theme of the strip. Haley and her dad. Elan and his brother and father (resolved in that he's realized he doesn't want to be like them). Durkon and his mom. We have still yet to see the resolution between V and V's mate (but I expect there will be one, otherwise why the scene with V looking at the portrait?). Presumably, these eleements will be part of the "ending/denouement" for the group, so doing some development of Julia, specifically as she relates to Roy does seem useful towards that end.

Belkar is the outlier, if course. Rich doesn't have to write in any family resolution or ending becase we all know he isn't going to get one.

[KorvinStarmast]

We have still yet to see the resolution between V and V's mate
Yes we did, and the mate (Inkyrus) told V very clearly to GTFO. V signed the divorce decree during Book 5. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0679.html)

Belkar is the outlier, if course. Rich doesn't have to write in any family resolution or ending because we all know he isn't going to get one. The closest thing to family Belkar has is The Order, and Mr Scruffy. Minrah may eventually be the one who gets him to realize that.

[gbaji]

You don't think some part of the story is going to include some sort of reconciliation between V and Inkyrus? Seems strange to have all of this development for the character, realizing that magic power isn't all there is, and pining away for the lost relationship, and making strides to "be better", and then not have any payoff.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You don't think some part of the story is going to include some sort of reconciliation between V and Inkyrus? Seems strange to have all of this development for the character, realizing that magic power isn't all there is, and pining away for the lost relationship, and making strides to "be better", and then not have any payoff.

The payoff is that V has gained self-understanding. They have come to realise that they were a terrible spouse, a fairly bad parent, and that their former family is better off without them, and that to fight to insert themselves into their lives is not to anyone's benefit. That's the payoff: sometimes, you have screwed up a relationship so much that they are better off without you, and it's best for you to accept that than to keep fighting and make everyone involved miserable.

This isn't Disney. Not every character is entitled to a pliable spouse that puts up with them. Especially not absent-mindedly genocidal characters.

GW

[Ruck]

Yes we did, and the mate (Inkyrus) told V very clearly to GTFO. V signed the divorce decree during Book 5. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0679.html)

See, this is why you don't just cut out a little of the post:


(but I expect there will be one, otherwise why the scene with V looking at the portrait?)

I don't know if this is correct at all; I have no real opinion on it. But since the post addresses a scene that happened after that event, just saying that's the end of it is evading what the post is saying.

[gbaji]

The payoff is that V has gained self-understanding. They have come to realise that they were a terrible spouse, a fairly bad parent, and that their former family is better off without them, and that to fight to insert themselves into their lives is not to anyone's benefit. That's the payoff: sometimes, you have screwed up a relationship so much that they are better off without you, and it's best for you to accept that than to keep fighting and make everyone involved miserable.

None of which has much story value if the only outcome is "used my position in an adventuring party to defeat the bad guys and save the world". V was doing that before all that self revelation.


This isn't Disney. Not every character is entitled to a pliable spouse that puts up with them. Especially not absent-mindedly genocidal characters.

I'm not talking cheesy "movie of the week" ending here. But V heading back to elven lands at the end, seeking to mend fences with the family (a "starting point"), perhaps with a realization that saving the world doesn't matter unless you actually care about those who live in it, would seem like something that will happen. That's obviously going to be a long process, and we're not going to see it. But I'd be shocked if we don't see the start of it at least.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

None of which has much story value if the only outcome is "used my position in an adventuring party to defeat the bad guys and save the world". V was doing that before all that self revelation.
The story value is the realisation that it was one or the other, not both (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0679.html). "I sacrifice my chance of reconciliation for [...] the fate of all of us".


I'm not talking cheesy "movie of the week" ending here. But V heading back to elven lands at the end, seeking to mend fences with the family (a "starting point"), perhaps with a realization that saving the world doesn't matter unless you actually care about those who live in it, would seem like something that will happen. That's obviously going to be a long process, and we're not going to see it. But I'd be shocked if we don't see the start of it at least.

Your base assumption that V will survive the end seems unwarranted at this time. And even if they do, I doubt any reconciliation with Inky is anywhere in the cards. Maybe, just maybe, re-connecting with their children could be a possibility. But the spousal abuse is just not going to go away no matter how much of the world they save.

GW

[KorvinStarmast]

You don't think some part of the story is going to include some sort of reconciliation between V and Inkyrus? No, I don't.
Regret is a thing.
Sorry, I don't see there being any going back in this case. As Blackwing points out in that strip, there was a lot of similar behavior that had developed into a pattern.
I've met a great many people who have been through divorce, some of whom are related to me, and a dear friend of ours recently went through this - turns out, she had married a monster (literally), violence was involved, and yes there is now a restraining order...and much more sad, terrible stuff.

This isn't Disney. Not every character is entitled to a pliable spouse that puts up with them. Especially not absent-mindedly genocidal characters. Thank you, Grey_Wolf_C. You said some of what I was thinking very concisely.

[Kish]

You don't think some part of the story is going to include some sort of reconciliation between V and Inkyrus? Seems strange to have all of this development for the character, realizing that magic power isn't all there is, and pining away for the lost relationship, and making strides to "be better", and then not have any payoff.
Far too much fiction has the premise you state here: that if you depict a character changing for the better, they have to get back whatever they previously lost for very good reason, or they might as well not have changed. I honestly believe that idea does a lot to interfere with any sort of justice: far too many people look at "X did something bad" and think the available responses are binary, either "and therefore they are no longer a person and everyone should rejoice at their death" or "and they're sorry, so let's never mention it again."

[Sir_Norbert]

As a writer of meagre skill, I am always asking, "What does this add to the story?" OotS is not a sitcom that rehashes the same old jokes over and over. Eugene jokes have been done. Roy's business with Eugene is over. I don't see how Eugene adds to the story at this point.

As someone who is not the author, you can't know that Roy's business with Eugene is over until the story ends.

There was a time when most of the forum took it as axiomatic that Hilgya's role in the story was over, and yet....

[Imbalance]

If Julia isn't Julia, who, then, is the lizard?

[brian 333]

As someone who is not the author, you can't know that Roy's business with Eugene is over until the story ends.

There was a time when most of the forum took it as axiomatic that Hilgya's role in the story was over, and yet....

You are right. I can't know that Roy's business with Eugene is over in spite of his saying exactly that. Like Elan, Roy has put his father firmly in his past and moved on.

Perhaps, like Tarquin, Eugene's business with his son is not over, but this isn't Eugene's story any more than it is Tarquin's.

I can see dozens of ways Eugene can insert himself back into the story. My question is, what new thing does Eugene have to offer? If he doesn't have anything to add, he's eating up screen time better spent moving the story forward.

I don't recall the discussions about Hilgya's being out of the story, but I was an intermittent forum browser at the time. I know when I saw the Linear Guild reappear, my first thought was, where's Hilgya?

[F.Harr]

Is it just me or are those . . . really heavy? And does it matter? I guess not.

[Sir_Norbert]

You are right. I can't know that Roy's business with Eugene is over in spite of his saying exactly that. Like Elan, Roy has put his father firmly in his past and moved on.

In spite of your sarcasm, I cannot find anywhere in Eugene's most recent appearance as himself (1045-1048 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1048.html)) (or am I forgetting a more recent appearance?) where Roy said any such thing.

Roy doesn't want to see Eugene again, that is clear. But he expects to. He knows that Eugene is an unresolved loose end.

[Gurgeh]

I think it's easy to colour their last exchange with the promise Roy extracted back in 500 for Eugene to forever stay out of his family's (after)lives - once Xykon was destroyed. But Xykon is obviously not destroyed and Eugene has not been let into the afterlife, so that one's neither here nor there.

[Metastachydium]

There was a time when most of the forum took it as axiomatic that Hilgya's role in the story was over, and yet....

But we can, at least, all agree that she is Chaotic Evil?


Stuff about V.

This is an exquisite little thing we should probably keep in mind: I'm confident that we all remember a certain spell V cast not long before they parted ways with I. and the children. Familicide. V cast that spell to destroy someone else's family, but what led them to do so destroyed their own. Not that this one action of theirs wasn't a red line V stepped over with abandon in general. I'm fairly certain the moment they did so, it was over and done: there won't be a happy ending for V.

[brian 333]

In spite of your sarcasm, I cannot find anywhere in Eugene's most recent appearance as himself (1045-1048 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1048.html)) (or am I forgetting a more recent appearance?) where Roy said any such thing.

Roy doesn't want to see Eugene again, that is clear. But he expects to. He knows that Eugene is an unresolved loose end.

I was not being sarcastic. I was conceeding the point that I cannot know what the author has in mind, and that I could be wrong.

[Sir_Norbert]

I see, then I'm sorry for getting it wrong and I apologise for any rudeness in my response.

[KorvinStarmast]

But we can, at least, all agree that she is Chaotic Evil?
You are half right. :smalltongue:


I'm fairly certain the moment they did so, it was over and done: there won't be a happy ending for V. Elan gets the happy ending, V gets to try to atone for that decision....if that's even possible (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html).

[faustin]

You are half right. :smalltongue:

Elan gets the happy ending, V gets to try to atone for that decision....if that's even possible (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html).

Related, but does Roy realize V is like Eugene but with actual regrets and self-awareness, rather than doubling down in arrogance.

[ti'esar]

Related, but does Roy realize V is like Eugene but with actual regrets and self-awareness, rather than doubling down in arrogance.

Literally one comic before the linked. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0944.html)

[faustin]

Literally one comic before the linked. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0944.html)

:sigh:Man, I really need to re-read the comic again.

[Tubercular Ox]

I can see dozens of ways Eugene can insert himself back into the story. My question is, what new thing does Eugene have to offer? If he doesn't have anything to add, he's eating up screen time better spent moving the story forward.



The payoff is that V has gained self-understanding. They have come to realise that they were a terrible spouse, a fairly bad parent, and that their former family is better off without them, and that to fight to insert themselves into their lives is not to anyone's benefit.



Far too much fiction has the premise you state here: that if you depict a character changing for the better, they have to get back whatever they previously lost for very good reason, or they might as well not have changed.

So Eugene grows, realizes he's the problem, and comes to respect his son, which gives back what Roy gave up wanting for very good reason.

I'm happy for Rich to monkey with that plotline, for reasons similar to Kish, but a good start to having something to monkey with is letting Eugene meet Roy without the burden of their relationship to sour things. Which Eugene could do by disguising himself as Julia and realizing his son is someone else when he's not Eugene.

A trigger for the implied growth that brings Eugene down as Julia, if that is what is happening, would be Eugene finding out he could've gotten into heaven if he had just kept trying. The ultimate extremity for that lesson is realizing that death doesn't really remove from him the option of trying.

All of this is intended to provide one example of a new thing Eugene could offer by coming back into the story, by piecing together common storytelling tropes. Post provided without warranty, express or implied.

[KorvinStarmast]

The ultimate extremity for that lesson is realizing that death doesn't really remove from him the option of trying. He already knows that. See his scam with Shojo (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0291.html), where he acted as the being of pure Law and Good (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0267.html). He has to keep trying with the means at his disposal


Post provided without warranty, express or implied. *chuckle* :smallsmile:

[Tubercular Ox]

He already knows that. See his scam with Shojo (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0291.html), where he acted as the being of pure Law and Good (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0267.html). He has to keep trying with the means at his disposal

*chuckle* :smallsmile:

That was an attempt to goad his son. What he's doing now is much more direct. An argument for it not being Eugene is that all the rules for what oathspirits are allowed to do seem to have gone out the window.

ETA: If he ends up in Elysium because he went full Chaotic in order to Lawfully uphold his blood oath, I'm going to laugh. He fulfills his promise never to see his family again, but may not want it anymore.

And yes, I realize something that detailed is wildly unlikely, it's still a laugh.

[gbaji]

No, I don't.
Regret is a thing.
Sorry, I don't see there being any going back in this case. As Blackwing points out in that strip, there was a lot of similar behavior that had developed into a pattern.

I don't think we'll see a "happily ever after" fast-turn-around bit, but I would not be surprised if we do see V committing to putting family first and begining the path towards that goal. We don't have to know if it succeeds, or to what degree it does. The character development arc for V was realizing that family is more important than magical power. Not showing some sort of action (or at least decision to act) on that development would seem odd to me.

The strip in question was also before V realized the full effect of the Familicide spell. V is still putting "pursuit of magical power" ahead of family at that point in time. That's the choice being made there (I must give up my family for the quest). One V clearly regrets later.


But we can, at least, all agree that she is Chaotic Evil?

Well, now you've done it!

[KorvinStarmast]

I don't think we'll see a "happily ever after" fast-turn-around bit, but I would not be surprised if we do see V committing to putting family first and begining the path towards that goal. We don't have to know if it succeeds, or to what degree it does. The character development arc for V was realizing that family is more important than magical power. Not showing some sort of action (or at least decision to act) on that development would seem odd to me.

The strip in question was also before V realized the full effect of the Familicide spell. V is still putting "pursuit of magical power" ahead of family at that point in time. That's the choice being made there (I must give up my family for the quest). One V clearly regrets later.
There are a lot of different ways that V's attempt to right the horrible wrong done can be worked out. I have a hunch that it will be resolved via sacrifice. There are other ways for it to be presented, though, to include the "after the two extra trips to the IFCC's lounge" are done and the quest finally achieved, V saying something like "unless and until I atone for my atrocity, I cannot face my family and beg Inky to take me back"
Then off V goes into the sunset, to try and make atonement ... fade to black with suitably somber music playing in the background.

[JustIgnoreMe]

-I found it weird that Julia knew the ally was a "she" when Roy is just telling her that they found somebody
-She gets taken aback with not remembering some key shared memory

I've heard somebody mentioning that this is Sabine which seems plausible. I guess she can even imitate with some illusion the green aura?
Though imitating the spell itself would be more complex since its very unique and is based on Roy and Julia's connection.

Any ideas?


#1276 answers this pretty conclusively. Well spotted.

[Ron Miel]

I'll bet 50 Quatloos that it's really Julia.


I'll take that bet.

Your Quatloos are in the mail.

[KorvinStarmast]

Well played. :smallsmile:

[Resileaf]

Too bad about my Qarr theory, but Eugene was definitely the most likely culprit after a few strips ago. No bragging rights for me, but smug satisfaction is still present. :smallbiggrin:

[brian 333]

Too everyone who was right about Eugene: congratulations!

To everyone else, welcome to my world.

Now I have to wonder how Eugene is going to advance the story.

[Devlerbat]

I still think this was a dumb move on Eugene's part.

[Metastachydium]

I still think this was a dumb move on Eugene's part.

Well, it wouldn't be a firts on that front.

[KillianHawkeye]

I still think this was a dumb move on Eugene's part.

Eugene's entire life more-or-less is an unending tale of bad decision-making. :smallamused:

[Metastachydium]

This development also, in fact, explains why "Julia" was so insistent on "whatever you do, kill Xykon first" the first time around (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1195.html), as well as how "she" drew the conclusion that "Eugene wasn't all that bad" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1196.html) from the nasty old bastard's subtly self-aggrandizing conviction amounting to "wizards are like gods, except self-sufficient".

[Sir_Norbert]

That's if it was Eugene in 1195/1196 as well, which is not clear. I'm leaning towards it isn't, since if it was, Eugene's "last time we talked" line doesn't work. [EDIT: I'm wrong, someone pointed out in the 1276 discussion thread that the line specifically does work in that case.]

[herrhauptmann]

This development also, in fact, explains why "Julia" was so insistent on "whatever you do, kill Xykon first" the first time around (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1195.html), as well as how "she" drew the conclusion that "Eugene wasn't all that bad" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1196.html) from the nasty old bastard's subtly self-aggrandizing conviction amounting to "wizards are like gods, except self-sufficient".

Is there a list somewhere of all of the times "Julia" has shown up to talk to him?

edit.
Eugene at 1045. https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1045.html

[Metastachydium]

Is there a list somewhere of all of the times "Julia" has shown up to talk to him?

edit.
Eugene at 1045. https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1045.html

So far, there have been only two instances, the one on the ship in no. 1191 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1191.html)et seq. and the one that's just concluded.

[herrhauptmann]

So far, there have been only two instances, the one on the ship in no. 1191 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1191.html)et seq. and the one that's just concluded.

Thank you, for some reason it felt like there were more.

[Fish]

Now I have to wonder how Eugene is going to advance the story.
The characters are the story.

Luke: Master Yoda, I must know. Is Darth Vader my father?
Yoda: Your father he is. Told you, did he? Unfortunate this is, and unexpected.
OOTS forum: Get to the story! This is just filler! What does Yoda have to do with the plot? We want more shippy shippy zappy zappy blowy-uppy!

I’ve been guilty of this myself when I couldn’t see what purpose a scene had toward advancing what I perceived as the larger arc of stopping Xykon.

Think about it this way: suppose the very next scene was Xykon being defeated, maybe over a dozen strips. The “plot” would be concluded. Then what? Well, then we’d get a bunch of strips to show what happened to Tarquin, and Elan’s plan. We’d get a bunch of strips showing Durkon’s return to his mother. Roy reconciling with his father. Haley and Elan get married. Just a bunch of … stuff happening with no linking device, using whatever characters happened to survive. We’d get explanations for the mysterious world. We’d tie up loose ends like the Dark One and Hilgya and Odin’s weird speech and Inkyrus and the kids.

It would all be anticlimactic.

The loose ends have to get tied up closer to the middle so the end space is free for the drama of the actual climax.

[Metastachydium]

Roy reconciling with his father.

I don't really feel like that's set to happen, and Eugene's latest stunt certainly does not strike me as conducive to such an outcome.

[Fish]

I don't really feel like that's set to happen, and Eugene's latest stunt certainly does not strike me as conducive to such an outcome.
However Roy’s arc with his father comes to an end, then. It could be anything. Suppose Eugene finally stops harping on Roy being a fighter. If it happens after Roy wins, any change made by Eugene would be hollow.

Roy wins: Eugene says fighters are okay after all, because the evidence is undeniable.

Roy hasn’t won yet: Eugene’s change of heart is about his faith in his son and about admitting his own bias.

Or whatever change it is you imagine Eugene or Roy having. Roy loses the sword; Roy throws the sword into the other world so he doesn’t have to listen to his father; the Snarl is unleashed on Celestia and Eugene is destroyed; whatever. It’s better when the stakes are high and the future uncertain.

[Peelee]

Roy wins: Eugene says fighters are okay after all, because the evidence is undeniable.

Thr possibility exists that you underestimate Eugene's ability to deny. :smalltongue:

[brian 333]

The fact that I don't see the potential benefit of Eugene's presence at this point of the story is irrelevant. Obviously, The Author does, and this is his story.

My question was not, "Should Eugene be in the story," but, "What element does Eugene bring to the story at this point which cannot be better provided by another character?"

He has used up his plot-relevant information.
He has extremely limited agency.
If he knew how to kill Xykon or disable Redcloak, it is past time to have given that advice.

I'm not one of those readers who needs to have every detail tied up. I'm long past caring what happens to Tarquin, ( unless there is a sequel,) and I don't need to know which afterlife Tsukiko is in. Whether Elan and Haley get married is their business, and unless it connects to the story, it is none of mine. (Unless they send me an invite.)

So I have no need to see Eugene redeem himself. It matters to me not at all. What matters to me is how he adds to this story. If it is just to be a crotchety old butt-insky, we've already done that. If it is to show him be proud of his son, it is too late for that to matter. To me, anyway. At this point, I don't want to see Eugene get into Celestia because regardless what happens after he died, he never lived up to the LG ideals while alive.

Roy has already said he is done with his father, and gave good reasons. Roy doesn't need or want him around. So, going forward, what does Eugene bring to the story that requires his presence now?

[faustin]

I don't really feel like that's set to happen, and Eugene's latest stunt certainly does not strike me as conducive to such an outcome.

I believe Elan himself would tell Roy to get over "wishful thinking" just as they did back in Girard's pyramid. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0887.html)

[Metastachydium]

Roy has already said he is done with his father, and gave good reasons. Roy doesn't need or want him around. So, going forward, what does Eugene bring to the story that requires his presence now?

Complication, I imagine. Eugene doesn't want or need the world saved; all he cares about is that Xykon is destroyed. Roy has different priorities, however, and he isn't terribly receptive to Eugene's ideas anymore. Therefore, Eugene uses his expertise in Illusion magic to adopt a shape conveniently not unlike himself, but (unlike himself) enjoying Roy's implicit trust to try and ensure that either their goals continue to align or he can sabotage Roy's mission to get what he wants, the multiverse be damned.


I believe Elan himself would tell Roy to get over "wishful thinking" just as they did back in Girard's pyramid. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0887.html)

Case in point, big time.

[tomandtish]

So, going forward, what does Eugene bring to the story that requires his presence now?

Honestly, given that it is Eugene I suspect someway of screwing things up. He'll be pushing for things to be done the way HE wants.

[Sir_Norbert]

Very much that. We are not even 100 strips into Book Seven yet. Obstacles must continue to get in the way of the final confrontation, to postpone it to its proper place at the end. The really big loose end of the world within the Snarl must be explored and explained and somehow connected to the main storyline. Of course, as of now I have no idea how Eugene's presence leads there; I think this is just one stepping stone of the events yet to be revealed. Eugene will try carrying out some plan that prevents everything going the way Roy wants, forcing Roy to improvise.

As for Eugene's eventual fate, redemption is possible but doesn't seem especially likely. It's not for everyone, after all.