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View Full Version : Original System Rogues and Ruins - Pick up and play character builder RPG



Dasick
2023-01-24, 12:18 PM
I've always found the character making part of playing RPGs the most tedious, and I've always liked playing different characters, so this is why I've made this system. The idea is that you start as a level 0 commoner, and you build yourself up to whatever class or archetype through your actions. It's also very much heavily ties all your bonuses to personality traits, so it encourages more roleplaying to get good rollplaying. It's also meant to be simple so that someone who doesn't have much experience can just pick it up

Six attributes, you roll a d6 for each, or have 18 points to distribute

Strength, Agility, Endurance for physical, Charisma, Intelligence and Wisdom for mental (they're mirror images)

One of the core mechanics is that you exhaust ability points throughout the day. So for example, if your character is "hit" in combat, you can exhaust Agility to make a last moment dodge, or Endurance to absorb the hit. If you know Shadowrun, all your attributes are basically edge points you get every day, and each has a number of rules on how you can spend them, either for rerolls, or crits, or something else. Your END and CHA are health and "sanity" respectively. Four hours of rest give you back 3 points, you can distribute them however you like. Instead of health damage, you take on injuries which give a persistent ability debuff until they are treated and healed (and then you restore the ability score naturally)

Skills go from a scale of 1 to 4.
1 - unaware, incompetent
2 - aware, incompetent
3 - aware, competent
4 - unaware, competent

To go from 1 to 2, you need to fail at a skill and spend an Int point, to go from 2 to 3 you need to succeed and spend an Int point, to go from 3 to 4 you need to make a critical success (and spend an Int point).

There are also criteria for maintaining skills, or prerequisites for going up. If you fail it, it goes back to the previous level.

No criteria to go from 1 to 2. You need to exercise the skill at least once two weeks.
To go from 2 to 3 you need to exercise the skill at least twice a week
To go from 3 to 4 you need to exercise the skill every day for three months
To maintain 4 you need to make a crit every day and spend an Int point, and any failures using that skill set you back to 3

All rolls give the amount of d6s equal to the sum of two attributes (its pretty flexible which attributes the players decide to use) multiplied by skill level. Level 4 also grants appropriate magick modifiers - any skill done at that level is done with the intensity and focus to do intuitive magick. A way to avoid quadratic wizards and linear fighters. Level 4 represents short bursts of genius and inspiration, getting into "flow" state.

Various bonuses and modifiers change the target number, giver rerolls, exploding dice (crits). System is similar to Shadowrun.

Your character's personality is made up of different systems.

Weapon preference - each weapon has a pair of attributes associated with it, attributes its most likely to affect, and some bonuses depending on the level of skill with it. Someone who is good with clubs gets bonuses to intimidation, someone good with daggers gets bonuses to stealth. Swords are more of an int/cha weapon, as you need to be more educated and/or better off materially to use it, they give bonuses to social standing. Etc etc.

MBTI - whenever you role play one way or another using the four pairs, you gain different bonuses, with a scale that goes three steps each way. I/E pair gives an extra CHA whenever you're either practicing a favored skill or doing social things on first step for example. When you have at least two in every pair, you get a "personality set" bonus.

Dark triad - goes from 1 to 4, with different modifiers on each level. A 1 psychopathy means the character can only be vegan for example. To kill a living thing in self defense you need at least 2. To kill a thing unprovoked for good reasons you need a psychopathy of 2 or 3 and some points in Machiavellianism (and a successful int/cha roll). Narcissism is more or less required for mages and clerics, you need 3 or 4 to not think that you're going nuts and actually have special powers. Machiavellianism is a must have for rogue types. Levels 3 and 4 is when your character starts getting unstable and dangerous to party members. Going up and down the scale requires some kind of an altered emotional state (for example, for 1 NAR to go to 2 NAR and eat some meat would require intense hunger, for 2 NAR to attack someone would require intense anger) or continued actions and desensitization, and its mostly int/cha governing it. Making it go down usually requires some practice of virtue (prayer, mortification or asceticism, charity) or embracing vice (heavy drinking or gambling) or deep emotional catharsis. It naturally goes up over time from adventuring.

Humours - four humours, go from 1 to 4. At three and four you start getting elemental effects. Goes along the axis of how long your response is vs how long it takes you to respond to something. Someone who holds a grudge is long response, if it's easy to make you hold a grudge you're choleric (fire). If you aren't very reactive at all and don't hold grudges, phlegmatic (water). Someone who takes a while to respond and who also maintains his response is melancholic (earth). Someone who is quick to respond, and quick to change course is sanguine (air)

Motivator pairs. Innocence/guilt (legalistic society, educated individuals), honour/shame (peer pressure, feudal society), power/fear (primitive society, harmony with nature). It's technically six. You can go up two steps in one of them (you automatically gain one step lower for the other pair), and one step in anyone else. Whenever something you do falls under one of these motivators, you get the appropriate bonuses (you can technically get all three so long as it aligns with it all). So for example, you can play a wizard whose major motivator is "innocence", that is, he believes that you can do whatever you want so long as it doesn't harm anyone. He automatically gains the guilt step as a minor motivator (he believes in rule of law). He can also have a minor power motivator. A paladin would have guilt as major motivator, as in upholding the law. But a paladin would also be motivated to defend those who do not break the law. The paladin can have a point in shame motivator, that is, the paladin does not want to do anything to scandalize himself. A paladin can also have a minor fear motivator, that is fear of upsetting her patron deity. A barbarian can have a strong honour motivator, she is determined to do something great for her clan. She has a minor power motivator because she believes that might makes right. Durkon is major guilt, minor shame. V is major innocence, minor power. Roy is major shame, minor guilt. Modern Belkar is major power, minor guilt (he is gaming the system). Tarquin is major guilt, minor power - probably.

Magick system is based on how people historically thought magick works, and requires more careful planning. I've always been annoyed that mages are high INT characters, but they use that INT to do brute force spells.

Some basics of magick are making hex or bless objects. They do a lot of enchanting and alchemy and potion brewing. Some energy manipulation, astral projections. If you want some marauding orc boss to die of a heart attack in his sleep, you need his hair or nail clippings or something like that, an object of intense attachment, or to hide a hex bag somewhere he is, or in a place of spiritual importance. Or you can astral project to invade his dreams and kill him in his sleep, but you would be fighting his subconscious with yours, so if he is strong willed, has shaman protection, etc etc, you could be a knight and he a dragon in his dreams. You can also do magick by making deals and contracts with various spiritual creatures. You can ask the fire spirits to go set torch to the orc encampment in the middle of the night, but they will ask something in return - and you're never quite sure if they're nature spirits, or demonic spirits. So its a heavy mix of support, diplomacy, and some sneaky stuff as well. Healing is done through herblore, healing crystals, reiki, or other quackery that works. Throwing fireballs is a very rare skill.

There's a wealth system as well which determines your equipment, ability to travel, recuperate. They're based on contracts, estates owned, doing travel merchant thing, or practicing a craft. All characters need to have something like this and it's based on the personality systems and further reinforces them - for example, being a mercenary requires a reasonably high psychopathy or machiavellianism. You need narcissism to be a traveling singer. The wealth system incorporates upkeep.


Combat is based on distance and advantage. It's all simultaneous and any conflict in turn order results in an opposed roll, usually AGI/WIS. All weapons have preferred reach. Ranged combat is the same except with cover or evasive maneuvering, and ranged vs melee is the melee trying to get into melee range while dodging attacks. Everyone can sneak attack, it's basically an unopposed roll depending on what you want to do with it, ranging from starting combat with some advantage, or outright killing someone. On your turn you can either maneuver, trade blows, or press an advantage. Trading blows gives an advantage point to whoever wins the opposed roll. If you decide to trade blows, but opponent is maneuvering, if you win you get advantage and opponent's maneuver fails, or opponent's maneuver succeeds and you dont get an advantage. Whoever has advantage can nullify maneuvering or trading blows with it. You can press an advantage, spending the advantage and depending on it, either deliver a debuff, deliver a minor wound (one attribute) or major wound (two attributes affected). It's either a dueling system of one or one, or you could have one group vs another (think shieldwalls for example), where you add the appropriate dice and use the appropriate tactics or leadership skill instead of individual weapon skills. Outnumbered, you would have to use tactics skills to try to create 1v1 situations - or maybe not. The system is deliberately open. So one player can be like "I want to maneuver with WIS/INT to find a weakness in my opponent's fencing style", another can say "I want to use my END/AGI to try to overwhelm the opponent with a flurry of blows" and so on and so forth. A shaman or barbarian archetype can use CHA/WIS to demoralize an opponent (do CHA damage). A barbarian can use CHA/STR to kill someone in a gruesome and horrific way to deal mass CHA damage. Etc etc. Think of how Roy fights Thog - that's how you have to fight to win pretty much any combat and not have it be a coin flip and have your character die and have to start over (the roguelike part of rogues and ruins :P )

Traditional healer roles and magick users are more about preventing damage and boosting morale while damaging enemy morale - or not. A mage can also prepare some molotov potions to throw at enemies for example. Or using various spirits to fight for her.

akma
2023-01-27, 03:22 PM
I don't see how that system makes character building easier.



Six attributes, you roll a d6 for each, or have 18 points to distribute

The average of 6d6 is 21, not 18.



To maintain 4 you need to make a crit every day and spend an Int point, and any failures using that skill set you back to 3

Eventually, a player would lose that skill point due to a bad roll, and that doesn't sound fun.



All rolls give the amount of d6s equal to the sum of two attributes (its pretty flexible which attributes the players decide to use) multiplied by skill level.

With two attributes at 6 and a skill level of 4, that would mean rolling 48d6. I know it's a theoretical maximum, but it still feels like way too much.



~snipped personality stuff~

That looks overly complicated, hard to handle for people who are unfamiliar with some of the terms. Clerics and high Narcissism doesn't sound like a good combination, because clerics literally serve gods. Players would need to constantly keep track of their personality traits and how to change, to see what they could and could not do, instead of playing spontanously.



Magick system is based on how people historically thought magick works

That's a very ambiguous description, as it differs by region and time period.
What you detailed afterwards seems like a chaotic mash up of some different things, not a unified system.

You use Shadowrun mechanics, but the terminology read like it's supposed to be a D&D replacement, and other than mechanics, I don't recall reading anything in your text that uses a Shadowrun specific thing as an example. Why is there this disconnect?

Dasick
2023-01-28, 02:00 PM
Yay feedback


I don't see how that system makes character building easier.

Because to start a game, you just need to assign/roll the attributes. Everything else goes up or down based on roleplaying/scenario.





The average of 6d6 is 21, not 18.

Interesting observation.

The average 1d6 roll is 3 through. I'm trying to keep the attribute numbers low both because they're a resource and because the skills are multiplicative. I'm ok with a player having 3ish more attribute points on average if they decide to roll it up, it's fair to have an advantage.


Eventually, a player would lose that skill point due to a bad roll, and that doesn't sound fun.

With two attributes at 6 and a skill level of 4, that would mean rolling 48d6. I know it's a theoretical maximum, but it still feels like way too much.

Attributes can theoretically go up to 10 naturally through training (there is a train(attribute) skill, any day that you exhaust attribute points, when you rest to restore them you can go above the attribute limit by the training skill. So for example, Bob has 3 STR, he exhausts one during the day, at night while resting he can restore 3 exhausted Attributes. He restores it back to 3, then uses his natural unaware/unqualified training skill to gain a temporary 4 STR for the coming day. ) That's not including the potions, spells, or bonuses from various personality systems.

But, that's kind of the point. Each skill level represents a massive qualitative gap between them because of the multiplication. Level 4 skills represent a kind of flash of brilliance in a flow state - it's meant to be lost eventually, and not really last all that long. Its a difficult thing to gain and easy to lose. Level 4 skill is going "super sayian mode" so to speak.


That looks overly complicated, hard to handle for people who are unfamiliar with some of the terms. Clerics and high Narcissism doesn't sound like a good combination, because clerics literally serve gods. Players would need to constantly keep track of their personality traits and how to change, to see what they could and could not do, instead of playing spontanously.

Changing is done through roleplaying. The idea is to marry roleplaying and rollplaying. Changing the steps is meant to be like roleplaying experience. The system is more complicated for a GM, because GM is the one who has to be on the lookout for these traits being played out

Clerics and high Narcissism makes perfect sense. They literally have undeniable proof that they're special and gods favour them above other people. But you also need to have a certain level of that when your god starts talking to you you don't go nuts, or become convinced you're hallucinating. "Of course my god is talking to me, I am super special, its only natural". It's also a common stereotype that clerics and paladins are judgy and have a holier than thou attitude, and imo, that's a display of narcissism.


That's a very ambiguous description, as it differs by region and time period.
What you detailed afterwards seems like a chaotic mash up of some different things, not a unified system.

Hence it's a chaotic mash up. There isn't a unified system, there's a number of different systems, meant to allow a more creative approach. If I were to pick out three major systems they would be:

Dealing with spirits: historically speaking, in any folk belief about magick, it kind of boils down to it. Different regions would have different spirit ecosystems, so it can be vastly different, while using the same basic skillset
Energy manipulation: things people hope to accomplish through meditation or clearing their chakras for example. Dreams are extremely significant in pretty much every culture, so being able to enter "dreamscape" is an important magical skill
Reality hacking: why is it that if you write a hex on a lead scroll it does something? Why is it that certain sounds and lines and angles seem to alter reality in some way that's difficult to pin down to any natural law? Knowledge skills would determine what your character knows, and then it's up to the player to make good use of whatever hacks the character/GM present

Everything would kind of be a mix of the three, depending on what kind of a caster you want to play.


You use Shadowrun mechanics, but the terminology read like it's supposed to be a D&D replacement, and other than mechanics, I don't recall reading anything in your text that uses a Shadowrun specific thing as an example. Why is there this disconnect?

I really like shadowrun's system, but not a big fan of the fantasy counterpart. I mean, nothing is a D&D replacement - D&D was basically the first attempt at making an RPG system, and it has a whole bunch of really wonky and downright broken systems that make it a slog to play that have been around for several editions now. People will continue to play DnD even as better systems that do the same thing more elegantly are made, because it's D&D

But my issue with how much time and effort it takes to build a character also exists in shadowrun. So the point of this system is that you build your character as you play, and that the character building comes from the roleplaying and personality.

Captain Cap
2023-01-28, 03:43 PM
The average 1d6 roll is 3 through.
The average of 1d6 is 3.5 actually, even though a single roll can never reproduce it obviously.

Dasick
2023-01-28, 04:26 PM
The average of 1d6 is 3.5 actually, even though a single roll can never reproduce it obviously.

D'oh

That's a critical math failure on my part

But still, from the few playtests it seems to work out ok

akma
2023-01-29, 05:51 PM
Something I forgot to mention originally: I've read somewhere that the game Traveler includes a minigame to building you character, which is supposed to be fun, and apparently you could die during character creation (but than you just start rolling a new one, and the whole process is supposed to be quick). I haven't checked how it actually works, but maybe you could learn from how they do things.




But, that's kind of the point. Each skill level represents a massive qualitative gap between them because of the multiplication. Level 4 skills represent a kind of flash of brilliance in a flow state - it's meant to be lost eventually, and not really last all that long. Its a difficult thing to gain and easy to lose. Level 4 skill is going "super sayian mode" so to speak.

Maybe do that the skill level multiplies the result you roll instead of multiplying the amount of dice you roll? That would still serve a similar effect, but will not make players roll dozens of dice.



Changing is done through roleplaying. The idea is to marry roleplaying and rollplaying. Changing the steps is meant to be like roleplaying experience. The system is more complicated for a GM, because GM is the one who has to be on the lookout for these traits being played out

Not really, because the player also needs to keep track of it, to see what he can and cannot do.



Clerics and high Narcissism makes perfect sense.

I disagree, but I don't think any of us will manage to convince the other, so I'll drop the subject.



I mean, nothing is a D&D replacement - D&D was basically the first attempt at making an RPG system, and it has a whole bunch of really wonky and downright broken systems that make it a slog to play that have been around for several editions now. People will continue to play DnD even as better systems that do the same thing more elegantly are made, because it's D&D

I see this as a problem of the "RPG community", and think it would be better if people used different systems more often.



But my issue with how much time and effort it takes to build a character also exists in shadowrun. So the point of this system is that you build your character as you play, and that the character building comes from the roleplaying and personality.

Having a very simple game system could achieve that. I think that in Cypher you can create a character by choosing three words and that's it.
But if you feel it's important to have a complex rule system, it certainly makes your goal much harder.

Dasick
2023-02-01, 10:38 PM
Something I forgot to mention originally: I've read somewhere that the game Traveler includes a minigame to building you character, which is supposed to be fun, and apparently you could die during character creation (but than you just start rolling a new one, and the whole process is supposed to be quick). I haven't checked how it actually works, but maybe you could learn from how they do things.

Thanks, I'll check it out because it kinda seems like what I'm trying to do! Especially the die and reroll and die again part :D




Maybe do that the skill level multiplies the result you roll instead of multiplying the amount of dice you roll? That would still serve a similar effect, but will not make players roll dozens of dice.

That's actually a very elegant solution, I like it! Thanks!




Not really, because the player also needs to keep track of it, to see what he can and cannot do.


Kinda but not more than a paladin or a druid in DnD has to keep track of how their alignment shifts. This is intended to be a similar kind of thing.


I disagree, but I don't think any of us will manage to convince the other, so I'll drop the subject.

Well, it's kind of a system thats being developed, so I still want to hear your reasoning if you have more to add.

My rationale is that becoming powerful should be a "test of character", and the whole "murderhobo" part of the rollplaying adventures, it should be something that is implicitly an in-game mechanic and also something that can bite the players in the ass.



I see this as a problem of the "RPG community", and think it would be better if people used different systems more often.
Agreed. I love reading (and making) new rulesets as much as I enjoy playing them, perhaps even more so!


Having a very simple game system could achieve that. I think that in Cypher you can create a character by choosing three words and that's it.
But if you feel it's important to have a complex rule system, it certainly makes your goal much harder.

I feel like it's important enough to have a robust but elegant system dedicated to character development and building, since that's where the meat and potatoes of roleplaying should be.

I like the simple systems like You Are John or that horror system where you just lose dice over time. But at the same time I feel bad designing something like this because it feels kinda lazy. If the GM is busy fixing or inventing the system on the fly, that's not a good thing (incidentally, it feels like everyone is playing some sort of a homebrew variant of dnd... pure coincidence :D )