mirage arcane trap ?

[da newt]

In an AL published mod there is a trap - a 180' deep hole that has a MIRAGE ARCANE created illusion of a pool of water with it's surface 15' below the top of the hole, an apparent depth of 25' / 40' from the surface, and treasure/McGuffin at the bottom. The description of the trap states that anyone who jumps into the pool of water discovers it is false and plummets to the bottom (18d6 splat damage).

But MIRAGE ARCANE states:
You make terrain in an area up to 1 mile square look, sound, smell, and even feel like some other sort of terrain. The terrain's general shape remains the same, however. Open Fields or a road could be made to resemble a swamp, hill, crevasse, or some other difficult or impassable terrain. A pond can be made to seem like a grassy meadow, a precipice like a gentle slope, or a rock-strewn gully like a wide and smooth road.

Similarly, you can alter the Appearance of Structures, or add them where none are present. The spell doesn't disguise, conceal, or add Creatures.

The Illusion includes audible, visual, tactile, and olfactory elements, so it can turn clear ground into Difficult Terrain (or vice versa) or otherwise impede Movement through the area. Any piece of the illusory terrain (such as a rock or stick) that is removed from the spell's area disappears immediately.

Creatures with Truesight can see through the Illusion to the terrain's true form, however, all other elements of the Illusion remain, so while the creature is aware of the illusion's presence, the creature can still physically interact with the Illusion.





So if the spell creates audible, visual, tactile, and olfactory elements and these elements are real enough to make clear ground into difficult terrain, if you jumped into the spell created water, wouldn't you get wet, float, etc??

If the terrain under effect of the spell "retains it's general shape" can you make a hole look like it's full of water?

This is a new spell for me - how does it work as written?

[sithlordnergal]

So, I actually used a similar trick to hide a Dragon's Lair in a desert. I used Mirage Arcane to make it look like an oasis, with a large lake in the middle to hide the entrance. I ruled it everyone basically treated it like a proper oasis.

EDIT: Correction, thinking about it I did allow them to swim. Only thing they didn't gain a benefit from was drinking the water =O

[Segev]

If they'd used hallucinatory terrain, it would work as written. Mirage arcane is all but straight-up reality-warping. The water is there even if they see through the illusion via Investigation or Truesight. It's illusory, but it still physically impedes them, still can drown you, etc.

[Incorrect]

It's illusory, but it still physically impedes them, still can drown you, etc.
Hold on now...
Could someone make a one mile square illusion of a gigantic aquarium filled with water, and drown an entire army?

[Segev]

Hold on now...
Could someone make a one mile square illusion of a gigantic aquarium filled with water, and drown an entire army?

It does seem so, yes. The only argument I can concoct against it, given the wording of the spell, is a notion that you have to leave surfaces roughly where they are, so you'd have to put the top of the water about where the top of the land was, but that's not actually supported in the text. Now, that's clearly not the intention of the spell, which is to alter the landscape and add or subtract buildings. And while "a mile square and high aquarium" is a building, this is probably the least thematic use of it possible. On the other hand, I could totally see "I encase the castle in a fishbowl" as something an illusionist might do, so...

I guess 7th level spells are just getting to this level of ridiculous.


I suppose another way to rule it would be that you can't actually drown in the illusory water, even though you can swim in it.

[Unoriginal]

So if the spell creates audible, visual, tactile, and olfactory elements and these elements are real enough to make clear ground into difficult terrain, if you jumped into the spell created water, wouldn't you get wet, float, etc??

Creatures would feel wet, but they wouldn't actually be wet once they get out of the illusory water. You couldn't put out a fire that way, but you could potentially make a Fire Elemental fear it.

The illusion has *some* physical effects, as it can slow down someone who advance through it, but I don't think it's enough to float or swim or drown into it. Maybe I'd rule it slows the fall a bit.



If the terrain under effect of the spell "retains it's general shape" can you make a hole look like it's full of water?

The spell directly state you can make a precipice look like a slope, but I don't think you can cover a hole entirely, be it with water or something else.


EDIT: Never mind, I had read it correctly the first time.

[Chronos]

You think that's bad, now imagine that it's cast by an illusionist, so they can completely change everything about their illusory castle-with-grounds at will.

We're basically at Jareth-in-the-Labyrinth levels of power, here.

[Segev]

You think that's bad, now imagine that it's cast by an illusionist, so they can completely change everything about their illusory castle-with-grounds at will.

We're basically at Jareth-in-the-Labyrinth levels of power, here.

I know, isn't it grand? :smallcool::smallbiggrin:
https://stormlord.us/SegevPortrait/segev_by_nytrinhia-d67qt82.png

Even without Malleable Illusions, this is a nightmare curse for, say, an angry sorcerer to lay on a city. Your uptown villas? All ruins. Your city walls? Hole-filled wrecks. Your farms? A swampy quagmire.

[Unoriginal]

You think that's bad, now imagine that it's cast by an illusionist, so they can completely change everything about their illusory castle-with-grounds at will.

We're basically at Jareth-in-the-Labyrinth levels of power, here.

"Time to play 'The Floor is Lava'."

[Eldariel]

You think that's bad, now imagine that it's cast by an illusionist, so they can completely change everything about their illusory castle-with-grounds at will.

We're basically at Jareth-in-the-Labyrinth levels of power, here.

And this is why Wish for immediate Mirage Arcana is so hilariously ridiculous on an Illusionist.

[Segev]

And this is why Wish for immediate Mirage Arcana is so hilariously ridiculous on an Illusionist.

I can see it, but remember that the Illusionist can just have cast it yesterday, or last night, or that morning. It lasts for days, and he can just keep it up in the sky as a cloud, in line of sight, until he needs it. So no need for a wish; he's one action away from dropping it wherever he can see, anyway.


The more I think about it, the more I lean towards it being unable to cause damage or other harm, except as an impediment. So you CAN breathe the illusory water, because despite it being water you can swim in, it's still not really there and the air underlying it is. The lava floor may be hot enough to feel painful, but it won't hurt you, and only causes any disadvantage it does if the DM decides it does for the same reason "hot pavement by the pool" can cause hopping and jumping around with bare feet.

[Chronos]

It's hard to say if that's supported by the RAW, but I think I agree that that's the only balanced interpretation. Still hugely powerful, of course.

And even more so if you arrange to have a few real hazards in your realm, that enemies encounter once they've come to the conclusion that everything's fake. And you can still do things like removing a tower after enemies have climbed up the stairs, so they fall hundreds of feet to the real ground.

[Segev]

It's hard to say if that's supported by the RAW, but I think I agree that that's the only balanced interpretation. Still hugely powerful, of course.

And even more so if you arrange to have a few real hazards in your realm, that enemies encounter once they've come to the conclusion that everything's fake. And you can still do things like removing a tower after enemies have climbed up the stairs, so they fall hundreds of feet to the real ground.

Good points. ...also, even with "you can swim in, but not drown in nor have thirst quenched by, the illusory water" ruling, what happens if you take the above-ground swimming pool that's 6 feet deep and make it into just part of an open field? When a halfling walks into that space, does he start drowning because the water is still really there even if it isn't impeding his movement?

I'd argue "no," on the basis that the reality of the removal is what causes the least weirdness and out-of-spell-description harm.