3.5 - Changeling 'Minor Change Shape' + Construct Grafts + Warforged Components?

[Geeksthenewsexy]

Minor Change Shape (Su): Changelings have the supernatural ability to alter their appearance as though using a Disguise Self (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disguiseSelf.htm) spell that affects their bodies but not their possessions. This ability is not an illusory effect but a minor physical alteration of a changeling's facial features, skin color and texture, and size, within the limits described for the spell. A changeling can use this ability at will, and the alteration lasts until he changes shape again. A changeling reverts to his natural form when killed. A true seeing spell reveals his natural form. When using this ability to create a disguise, a changeling receives a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks. Using this ability is a full-round action.

RAW rules in play: Minor Change Shape states clearly that it "affects their bodies but not their possessions"
Grafts clearly state that they are "treated as part of the body" once grafted to the host, resulting in resurrections including the grafts and not the 'original parts'.
Grafts clearly state that "A graft is not a magical item".
Warforged Components are clearly explained as 'Magical Items', and are treated appropriately.

So, assuming you are a Changeling (or Doppleganger/Fey-Ri/Similar), and you have acquired Construct Grafts like Adamantine Skin (Faiths of Eberron, 157) and Mighty Arms (Faiths of Eberron, 158), how does that work with your Minor Change Shape? If you've gone even further and also taken on Warfroged Components (thanks to Mighty Arms) like Armbow (Eberron Campaign Setting, p. 268), Armblade (Eberron Campaign Setting, p. 268), Battlefist (Eberron Campaign Setting, p. 268), Finger Picks (Forge of War, p. 120), and/or Wand Sheathe (Eberron Campaign Setting, p. 269)...how does that work on top of things? Do you go from metallic changeling with a sword arm to a plain ungrafted dwarf? Do you become a metallic dwarf with an armblade? Or do you look like a plain dwarf, but are secretly metallic and your hand is super sharp? Essentially...


Do your metal bits change shape but do not function (losing all functionality of the 'items') while in the new form?
Do your mtal bits change shape but still function (retain functionality of the 'items') while in the new form?
Do your metal bits not change chape (reducing you to only a partial change shape), leaving you a different race also with the same metal bits?


I can't seem to find errata or clearly spelled out official rulings on anything similar enough to this to be confident in any one answer, and would love input from the community - especially any input backed up with any amount of credible evidence or compelling arguments for or against possible outcomes!

[Inevitability]

I think construct grafts and components should be treated as 'possessions'. Just like how Minor Change Shape can't change your outfit even though Disguise Self can, Minor Change Shape can't change anything about your construct components.


Grafts are not magic items, but in game terms they function very much like magic items.

Magic items tend to come with built-in resizing, so I'd rule that generally, the case described above results in a dwarf with all your components, fully functional and resized to fit. This interpretation works fine from both a flavor and mechanical perspective, and creates as little interference between the abilities as possible.

[Geeksthenewsexy]

I think construct grafts and components should be treated as 'possessions'. Just like how Minor Change Shape can't change your outfit even though Disguise Self can, Minor Change Shape can't change anything about your construct components.

Magic items tend to come with built-in resizing, so I'd rule that generally, the case described above results in a dwarf with all your components, fully functional and resized to fit. This interpretation works fine from both a flavor and mechanical perspective, and creates as little interference between the abilities as possible.


So, assuming that interpretation is used (essentially ignoring the 'this is your skin/arm/legs/etc' aspeft of the grafts in regards to grafts for minor shape change's effects), would the Glamour Enchantment on an Adamantine Skin (which covers 'your whole body', and as grafts are 'part of your body' these would be included by RAW) mean that you could disguise that graft, as well as other construct grafts, as normal clothing per the Glamour enhancement effect?

[icefractal]

You mean putting Glamour on the graft? I don't know if it's RAW, but it makes sense to me - I'd allow it if I were running.

Illusion magic like Disguise Self could also hide them, although since it doesn't do tactile then anyone shaking your hand would notice something's not right.

Edit: I'd also go with "they resize and still function correctly, but aren't hidden" as the base case. If your shape changed entirely (like, non-humanoid) then they'd meld but not work while melded - again, similar to magic items.

IMO, there'd be nothing wrong with giving the Changeling in question the choice each time they shapeshift - either keep the components visible but functional, or have them meld but not function while melded.

[ShurikVch]

I don't sure if it would be useful there, but I once made the "Warforged" Changeling (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?599539-quot-Warforged-quot-Changeling) thread...

[Geeksthenewsexy]

You mean putting Glamour on the graft? I don't know if it's RAW, but it makes sense to me - I'd allow it if I were running

Yes, the graft specifies that it can be enchanted like normal armor. -4 HP graft sacrifice gets you +5 Armor AC, +3 Max Dex, -3 ACP, 25% Arcane Spell Failure, DR 2/Adamantine, and it counts as Medium Armor. for 11,000, you are basically paying an extra 800gp (and taking a loss of -4HP) for a Mythril Breastplate whose DR is Adamantine instead of universal. So not exactly great...but it also has no weight, since it is your new skin - so it saves you 30lbs on gear weight at least.


I don't sure if it would be useful there, but I once made the "Warforged" Changeling (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?599539-quot-Warforged-quot-Changeling) thread...

Cool! Thank you for sharing. :)

[Gruftzwerg]

Minor Change Shape sole affects your body and not your possession (since it is a physical alteration of your body and not an illusionary overlay like Disguise Self) nor your abilities (from class/template/buffs/gear...).

Thus anything what is not part of your original race's form stays: class/template/buffs/gear

[Geeksthenewsexy]

Minor Change Shape sole affects your body and not your possession (since it is a physical alteration of your body and not an illusionary overlay like Disguise Self) nor your abilities (from class/template/buffs/gear...).

Thus anything what is not part of your original race's form stays: class/template/buffs/gear

Interesting take, but I imagine that is a very hard-line RAI take with no RAW to promote it. As per RAW, the Minor Change Shape ability states clearly that it "affects their bodies but not their possessions" and grafts state that they are to be "treated as part of the body" (resulting in resurrected beings being brought back with their grafts intact, rather than reverting to their 'original' parts) and also explicitly states that "a graft is not a magic item".

I'm less concerned with the interpretation of rules-as-intended (RAI) as I am with exact rules-as-written (RAW) and the results of such. Basically hoping that someone can cite any clear cases of clarity for such a combination of factors.

While warforged components are clearly labeled in RAW as Magical Items (and therefore can not be changed via the Minor Change Shape ability), I am curious if there is any official examples of how that would represent itself. Using RAW from sources I'm currently aware of, it would just look like a magic item that was attached to the skin upon close inspection (or not-so-close inspection in the case of weapons replacing entire hands).

Edit: In my search for answers, I discovered that this thread is actually on the 2nd page of DuckDuckGo when you search '3.5 graft errata', in case you were wondering just how thin-on-the-ground information about 3.5 graft errata is. lol

[Gruftzwerg]

Interesting take, but I imagine that is a very hard-line RAI take with no RAW to promote it. As per RAW, the Minor Change Shape ability states clearly that it "affects their bodies but not their possessions" and grafts state that they are to be "treated as part of the body" (resulting in resurrected beings being brought back with their grafts intact, rather than reverting to their 'original' parts) and also explicitly states that "a graft is not a magic item".

I'm less concerned with the interpretation of rules-as-intended (RAI) as I am with exact rules-as-written (RAW) and the results of such. Basically hoping that someone can cite any clear cases of clarity for such a combination of factors.

While warforged components are clearly labeled in RAW as Magical Items (and therefore can not be changed via the Minor Change Shape ability), I am curious if there is any official examples of how that would represent itself. Using RAW from sources I'm currently aware of, it would just look like a magic item that was attached to the skin upon close inspection (or not-so-close inspection in the case of weapons replacing entire hands).

Edit: In my search for answers, I discovered that this thread is actually on the 2nd page of DuckDuckGo when you search '3.5 graft errata', in case you were wondering just how thin-on-the-ground information about 3.5 graft errata is. lol

That was a pure RAW attempt to interpret the rules for Minor Change Shape.

You see, the MCS rules refers to Disguise Self. As such it tries to be more specific than DS.

The points where the rules of MCS and DS differ are sole that it is not an illusionary effect anymore but a physical alteration. This is the point where MCS trumps the general rules set by DS.
But it never calls out that you may affect any stats. The fact that DS never changes any real stats remains unchanged by the MCS rules.
The sole thing that MCS changes by RAW is the physical appearance of your body. By full RAW this can lead to some awkward situations. Like turning into something humanoid shaped with claws (e.g. Troglodyte) while still having no real claws by the rules.
Your entire stat-block remains unchanged, because neither DS nor MCS did give you the permission for any changes in that regard.

[Geeksthenewsexy]

That was a pure RAW attempt to interpret the rules for Minor Change Shape.

You see, the MCS rules refers to Disguise Self. As such it tries to be more specific than DS.

The points where the rules of MCS and DS differ are sole that it is not an illusionary effect anymore but a physical alteration. This is the point where MCS trumps the general rules set by DS.
But it never calls out that you may affect any stats. The fact that DS never changes any real stats remains unchanged by the MCS rules.
The sole thing that MCS changes by RAW is the physical appearance of your body. By full RAW this can lead to some awkward situations. Like turning into something humanoid shaped with claws (e.g. Troglodyte) while still having no real claws by the rules.
Your entire stat-block remains unchanged, because neither DS nor MCS did give you the permission for any changes in that regard.

I'm unsure where stats and natural weapons ever came into the discussion since the question was how to resolve the Minor Change Shape ability of Changelings in regards to non-organic body parts that, nevertheless, are part of the body (and thus visually affected by Minor Change Shape as per the RAW wording) and whether or not there is any errata or other rule definitions that would come into play in that regard. Obviously, your stats are whatever they are in your base form, and you do not gain natural attacks just because your fingernails happen to look like claws or similar.

[Chronos]

And also with the change from Disguise Self that it doesn't affect any of your equipment, only your body. Which is an important distinction, if we're not sure whether something is part of your body or a piece of equipment.

How about this: Can a perfectly ordinary non-cybernetic changeling make themself look like an ordinary warforged? I'm pretty sure that the answer to that is yes. But if a changeling can make their organic body parts look like inorganic body parts, then they should also be able to make inorganic body parts look like organic body parts.

[Geeksthenewsexy]

And also with the change from Disguise Self that it doesn't affect any of your equipment, only your body. Which is an important distinction, if we're not sure whether something is part of your body or a piece of equipment.

How about this: Can a perfectly ordinary non-cybernetic changeling make themself look like an ordinary warforged? I'm pretty sure that the answer to that is yes. But if a changeling can make their organic body parts look like inorganic body parts, then they should also be able to make inorganic body parts look like organic body parts.

The rules for grafts clearly denote that they are a part of your body and not considered outside equipment, so that isn't really in question. ̶A̶l̶s̶o̶,̶ ̶a̶s̶ ̶W̶a̶r̶f̶o̶r̶g̶e̶d̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶C̶o̶n̶s̶t̶r̶u̶c̶t̶ ̶t̶y̶p̶e̶,̶ ̶C̶h̶a̶n̶g̶e̶l̶i̶n̶g̶s̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶u̶s̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶i̶r̶ ̶M̶i̶n̶o̶r̶ ̶C̶h̶a̶n̶g̶e̶ ̶S̶h̶a̶p̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶m̶i̶m̶i̶c̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶m̶ ̶b̶e̶c̶a̶u̶s̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶r̶e̶s̶t̶r̶i̶c̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶m̶e̶d̶i̶u̶m̶ ̶r̶a̶c̶e̶s̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ H̶u̶m̶a̶n̶o̶i̶d̶ t̶y̶p̶e̶.̶ (Edit: I was proven wrong about this point by Chronos below, and had actually been thinking of the Racial Emulation feat. Kudos to Chronos for the correction.)

[Chronos]

Minor Change Shape doesn't require the humanoid creature type. Disguise Self, which it's based on, requires only the same body type, i.e., two arms, two legs, and so on. A humanoid can certainly use Disguise Self to look like a warforged, and nothing in the Minor Change Shape entry changes that.

[Geeksthenewsexy]

Minor Change Shape doesn't require the humanoid creature type. Disguise Self, which it's based on, requires only the same body type, i.e., two arms, two legs, and so on. A humanoid can certainly use Disguise Self to look like a warforged, and nothing in the Minor Change Shape entry changes that.

You are absolutely right! I have used the feat Racial Emulation (Races of Eberron, p. 110) for all my Changelings for so long that I'd had the 'emulate a humanoid' portion of that feat in my head any time I thought of the Minor Change Shape ability since forever. I revise my statement and concede the point. :)

[Gruftzwerg]

You originally asked...



...


Do your metal bits change shape but do not function (losing all functionality of the 'items') while in the new form?
Do your mtal bits change shape but still function (retain functionality of the 'items') while in the new form?
Do your metal bits not change chape (reducing you to only a partial change shape), leaving you a different race also with the same metal bits?

...

What I mean with "your stats don't change":

You still have the stats that provide you with your "metal bits". That doesn't change by MCS. Even if you assume that it may change the "metal bits" visually, it wouldn't change the outcome. Because after the change, the stat that provided you with that "metal bit" is still there affecting you. Thus these things remain.

Further, Disguise Self lacks the "equipment melds into your form and becomes nonfunctional" component like some transmutation have it. Thus you lack the permission by the rules to alter em (the "metal bits") in the first place.

No matter how you look at it, the "metal bits" stay visibly and are fully functional. Because grafts are considered equipment (or in some cases class abilities or feats). They are not considered part of your base form (that what MCS can change, since it doesn't alter any stats). It is not your base form that provides you with that stat/body part/metal bit.

[Geeksthenewsexy]

What I mean with "your stats don't change":

You still have the stats that provide you with your "metal bits". That doesn't change by MCS. Even if you assume that it may change the "metal bits" visually, it wouldn't change the outcome. Because after the change, the stat that provided you with that "metal bit" is still there affecting you. Thus these things remain.

Further, Disguise Self lacks the "equipment melds into your form and becomes nonfunctional" component like some transmutation have it. Thus you lack the permission by the rules to alter em (the "metal bits") in the first place.

No matter how you look at it, the "metal bits" stay visibly and are fully functional. Because grafts are considered equipment (or in some cases class abilities or feats). They are not considered part of your base form (that what MCS can change, since it doesn't alter any stats). It is not your base form that provides you with that stat/body part/metal bit.

You keep bringing up stats that grafts provide you, but I can only assume you mean a more broad 'benefits and effects', since grafts literally give you specific racial features of another race as part of grafting a piece of that race onto your body. In my example, they are racial benefits like built-in armor (adamantine skin), a natural slam attack, and the ability to use warforged-specific embedded weaponry (mighty arms). That was never in question. A graft functions as soon as integrated and does not stop, even in an anti-magic zone, because their benefits are racial not a magical effect.

Grafted parts are specifically not considered equipment and are considered part of the host's body. A graft literally becomes part of your 'base form' as a True resurrection spell would bring you back even if your body was completely destroyed with your graft(s) intact. I have no idea where you are getting the idea that the opposite is true? Your entire argument is relying on a baseless assumption that grafts are considered 'equipment' and not a part of your body. The entire purpose of grafts is that they are not equipment, and are a part of your body.

If you know of any sources that contradict this, please share them - the whole purpose of this thread is to find obscure rules revolving around grafts and their possible interactions with other mechanics.

[Gruftzwerg]

You keep bringing up stats that grafts provide you, but I can only assume you mean a more broad 'benefits and effects', since grafts literally give you specific racial features of another race as part of grafting a piece of that race onto your body. In my example, they are racial benefits like built-in armor (adamantine skin), a natural slam attack, and the ability to use warforged-specific embedded weaponry (mighty arms). That was never in question. A graft functions as soon as integrated and does not stop, even in an anti-magic zone, because their benefits are racial not a magical effect.

Grafted parts are specifically not considered equipment and are considered part of the host's body. A graft literally becomes part of your 'base form' as a True resurrection spell would bring you back even if your body was completely destroyed with your graft(s) intact. I have no idea where you are getting the idea that the opposite is true? Your entire argument is relying on a baseless assumption that grafts are considered 'equipment' and not a part of your body. The entire purpose of grafts is that they are not equipment, and are a part of your body.

If you know of any sources that contradict this, please share them - the whole purpose of this thread is to find obscure rules revolving around grafts and their possible interactions with other mechanics.

Anything you have is effectively on your statblock in one way or another. It doesn't matter if they are considered "part of your body" or not. In the end, graft alter your stats somehow.

Neither Disguise Self nor Minor Change Shape have any rules attached to alter your stats. Thus anything you have remains functional.

Assume a Medusa using "Disguise Self". Does her stats change in any way? No

Has Minor Change Shape (which is based on DS) any explicit rules that change your stats? No

If you polymorph into a Medusa and use MCS to look like a human, do you loose your special attacks? No

If you had tentacles, you still have em.
If you had 4 arms to attack, you still have 4 arms to attack.
If you had a graft, you still have it...
and so on.

MCS was never given the permission to alter anything else than the physical appearance of your character.
And yeah, this makes MCS a strange ability that sometimes has awkward outcomes.
The problem is that MCS never explains what happens in these kind of situations. Due to this, it still inherits the rules from DS.

MCS sole changes your physical appearance, but it lacks the permission to "give", "take" or "alter" anything you have on your statblock (character sheet). Be it something provided by your race, a template, a class, magic item or grafts. It doesn't matter. Neither of those are altered/affected by the MCS rules.

[Chronos]

I think everyone in this thread is in agreement that MCS doesn't change whether grafts work. The question is just whether they still look like grafts.

[Geeksthenewsexy]

I think everyone in this thread is in agreement that MCS doesn't change whether grafts work. The question is just whether they still look like grafts.

Pretty much seems that way, yeah.