Thinking of druid or druid/monk in party with no front line

[Willie the Duck]

New campaign starting. Level 1, but traditional fast-track to 3, Faerun (somewhere in the East, potentially with 3e maps), traditional TSR-era D&D races (H, E, D, 1/2E, 1/2O, g, h). Others have picked a bard (archetype unclear), a rogue (bow-based), and mountain dwarf... either celestial warlock or divine soul sorcerer (I forget which). People have indicated that it's fine if we don't have a traditional front line, that we'll moderate the challenges we choose to face and everyone will have a little bit of ruggedness or get-out-of-dodge ability. We all know how well that often goes, but who know, maybe it will work.

I'm thinking druid*, and wondering how to go with this. I could:
*preemptive note: yes on only non-metal armor, but also somewhat easy access to duskwood, chitine, etc.

Sigh and pick Moon Druid, since it's a simple answer to either how to deal with no front line or be the front line if we realize we need one, and it leaves all my other decisions (spells, race, ASIs) free for whatever else I want to do.
Pick Land (coast) Druid for escape and defense spells
Pick Spores druid (perhaps high elf for booming blade) for enhanced melee ability.
Pick Wildfire druid for having a mobile ranged ally who can also move me or my friends if needed (as well as opening up my spell choices by shifting cure wounds, plant growth, and revivify to automatically prepared)
Pick up Fey-Touched feat at 4 for Silvery Barbs and Misty step and then play any type (Stars, perhaps).
Dip Monk for defense, mobility, and offense.


Any thoughts on any options? Anyone done something similar (and how did it turn out)? Any other suggestions? If the last one, how much monk to take?
Thanks much in advance!

[KorvinStarmast]

Anyone done something similar (and how did it turn out)? Any other suggestions? If the last one, how much monk to take? Monk1/Druid X.
I went 1 level Monk at level 1, and Druid(Moon) the rest of the way. Your wisdom bonus to AC for most beasts will be a nice little boost when you change shape. I'd suggest vHuman so that you can take Resilient Wis (remember, you are a monk) at level 1 to get the boost to 16 Wis and have STR/DEX/WIS saves. Boosting Wis helps your Saving throws of Wis, your AC, and your Druid Spell casting.
(Now that I have seen both Stars and Shepherd in play, I'd recommend either one but you'll be summoning meat shields more than you'll be wildshaping into beasts). One of the best parts of Shepherd is that the summoned beasts have magical attacks when you hit Druid level 6.
As to summoning various beasts: for conjure animals, work with your DM ahead of time on pre agreed 'summons packages' suited to the area where you are adventuring. Makes the summoning in play get a heck of a lot smoother.

How far do you think that the campaign will go?

My first attempt at this was a wood elf Monk 1 Druid (Moon) 10. Worked. Getting that "You can be a water elemental" or 'you can be an air elemental" stage was extra fun.

My second attempt was vHuman with Resilient Wis, but at level 4 the campaign abruptly ended when two people bailed for RL reasons.
We had no rogue. My monk had criminal background / thieves tools and was the pseudo rogue.
Dumped Strength. Monk 1, Druid (Moon) 3.
Me being me, his only weapon was a club and he took Shilelagh to turn it into a magic weapon 1d8+wis mod.
He walked around in trousers, shirt, boots, dagger in his boot, club / stick stuck into his belt. Carried a backpack/bedroll. Starting stats: S 8 D 15(+1) C 13(+1) I 11 W 15(+1 res Wis) Ch 10.
Sort of an innocuous character in RP situations.
At level 3 the party liked having the occasional Dire Wolf on the front line.

On a few occasions, being able to turn into a Dire Wolf(Large) allows one to carry a fellow medium-sized party member and run off (in your get out of dodge requirement) at dire wolf speeds if need be.

[nickl_2000]

If it were me in this case I would be running a straight Wildfire Druid and skip the monk entirely. I don't think there is anything as good for kiting as the Wildfire Companion since it gets infinite teleportation that can take others with it and even do some damage when it does. Then you can use the Tasha's Summon X spells once you get to level 3 to have a disposable resource in the frontlines to protect you and your companions. I know that the Conjure X spells are considered better in general, but I think they are a poor addition to the game since they can slow down combat so badly. The Wildfire companion is also pretty disposable considering that you can summon 2 of them per short rest.

Now, add onto that as a Druid you will likely be able to take money instead of starting equipment and you should be able to get a bone/wooden shield and scale mail made out of non-metal materials. You should be starting at 18 AC which is plenty to frontline in the early levels. Also take Shillelagh with your staff and you are doing as well if not better than normal martial in melee in tier 1. You can always re-train Shillelagh at level 4 when you get an ASI.

[RogueJK]

Monk 1/Moon Druid X is a very effective frontliner, with some battlefield control and other Concentration spell option running at the same time.

An alternative option for a Druid in a party without any frontliners could be Shepherd Druid focused on Summoning, although it will take a bit to come fully online. Conjure Animals starting at Level 5 will be your bread and butter, although Summon Beast starting at Level 3 gets you at least one frontliner.

And if you have any sway over the other party members, you might see if you can convince the Celestial Warlock to play a Celestial Warlock Generalist: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?583957-An-Eclectic-Collection-of-Fun-and-Effective-Builds/ That makes for an effective frontliner starting at Level 3 and especially from Levels 6+, and if backed up by a Shepherd Druid buffing both their own summoned minions as well as the Warlock frontliner with their aura would be more than enough frontline support for the party.

[elyktsorb]

Done druid/monk a few times.

One was Land/Open Palm, worked decently, was more of a, go around the outside of a conflict, dropping faerie fire on things and going in for occasional quick hits, sort of deal, had Mobile. Worked well enough.

Ascendant Dragon/Spore, took Mobile at first with variant human, Ascendant Dragon was purely just to take only 3 levels on monk so my unarmed strikes could bypass the non magical BPS stuff. Again, worked decently as a hit and run attacker.

Moon Druid/Drunken Master, somewhat awkward, it was only a 4 level dip on the druid side just for getting good utility spells, good utility in wildshape, and the level 4 asi. Did unarmed strikes in animal forms, which were just temp hp with some specific utilities after a certain point.

If you really wanted a frontline Druid/Monk, I wager a Moon Druid/Long Death Monk would be decent. Wildshape yourself some hp, eventually just only do unarmed strikes in wild shape since they deal more damage, get temp hp per kill.

Otherwise adding Monk doesn't do much beyond getting better ac on your wildshapes and doesn't do much for a front liner overall in my experience.

[Psyren]

My favorite melee druid these days is Spore 2/Monk 5/Spore X. Usually Long Death for maximum theme synergy.

Alternatively I'll go Monk-heavy with Spore 2/Monk X, and use the temp HP rule trick.

[Willie the Duck]

Thanks for all the ideas, people. This is quite helpful!


Otherwise adding Monk doesn't do much beyond getting better ac on your wildshapes and doesn't do much for a front liner overall in my experience.

This just points out that I should clarify something. My goal isn't (unless I have to) to make a front-liner. It is to survive in a party without a front line.

[Psyren]

Thanks for all the ideas, people. This is quite helpful!



This just points out that I should clarify something. My goal isn't (unless I have to) to make a front-liner. It is to survive in a party without a front line.

If no one is in the front line that means everyone is :smalltongue: I would strongly consider at least a reasonably tanky build/gish.

[Willie the Duck]

If no one is in the front line that means everyone is :smalltongue: I would strongly consider at least a reasonably tanky build/gish.

Yes, but my point is that making a front-liner isn't the goal in particular. Thus. if adding a monk does what I need it to do, it would still be a good option, even if as elyktsorb says it "doesn't do much for a front liner overall."

[Hael]

You don’t really need a frontliner to be successful in 5e. A frontliner basically effectively acts as resourceless CC for a few enemies. Thats fundamentally their job.

So alternatively you can simply go heavy into even more lockdown crowd control, which druids can do in a number of ways. Procur the shield spell (via a feat/multiclass) and you will be fine.

You will be spending more resources to achieve the same effect, so its not ideal if your day is very grindy, but its more than sufficient provided the rest of the party chips in.

[RogueJK]

Procur the shield spell (via a feat/multiclass)

Or the MotM Githzerai race that gets it as a racial spell, and which (unlike the Magic Initiate feat) you can then also cast additional times via Druid spell slots.

[da newt]

Any druid can work well for what you have in mind. A mobile ranged party without a front line tank is a very interesting and fresh way to approach combat. Personally I'd skip the monk dip and go straight Druid - your AC will be just fine. If you had more race/species options I'd suggest something w/ flight or a goblin for BA hide/disengage, but druid has so many ways to slow others or move faster themselves you'll be fine.

As for conjure animals (and similar spells) I treat them as swarms (if there are more than 2) - they stay together, they attack the same target, they hit based on averages (%), do average damage per hit, and have a pool of hp so if you do X damage to the swarm you kill Y # of them etc. It takes a little prep work on the front side, but makes pace of play SO much better, and it's still a very effective spell.

[Samayu]

Dip Monk for defense, mobility, and offense.


1 level monk dip adds WIS to AC (when unarmored), grants a bonus unarmed attack, and doesn't do anything for mobility. Second level monk gets you +10 speed, and 2 ki points per short rest.

The first level sounds fair, but not the second.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I think I'd play full Wildfire in this case and get to level 5 and Conjure Animals asap. That'd be your 'front line' along with whatever the rest of the party can dig up. If you really think you need the AC down the road you can always take Monk 1, but I'd think the majority of your wildshape would be used for your spirit, so might be somewhat wasted vs. more Druid levels.

[da newt]

druid: med armor & shield w/ 14 dex = 18 or 19 AC
vs
monk: no armor dex+wis = AC 15 or 16 to start and maybe 17 at high levels (but you can BA kick a guy in the shin if you are stuck in melee for 1d4 + dex damage - wow ...)

Why bother?

[KorvinStarmast]

druid: med armor & shield w/ 14 dex = 18 or 19 AC
vs
monk: no armor dex+wis = AC 15 or 16 to start and maybe 17 at high levels (but you can BA kick a guy in the shin if you are stuck in melee for 1d4 + dex damage - wow ...)

Why bother? with a dex 16 and wis 20 at level 9 (druid 8) you have ac 18. Boost Dex at level 14 (12 Druid) and you have AC 19. All with one level of monk. No shield needed.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

with a dex 16 and wis 20 at level 9 (druid 8) you have ac 18. Boost Dex at level 14 (12 Druid) and you have AC 19. All with one level of monk. No shield needed.

But still, why bother?
Why bother investing in 16 dex if you don't have to?
Why bother taking a level of monk and delaying spell and feature progression if you don't have to?
Why not pick up a shield when the only slight benefit of having a weapon instead happens in melee (where you don't want to be) at early levels (before cantrips scale)?

[Psyren]

druid: med armor & shield w/ 14 dex = 18 or 19 AC
vs
monk: no armor dex+wis = AC 15 or 16 to start and maybe 17 at high levels (but you can BA kick a guy in the shin if you are stuck in melee for 1d4 + dex damage - wow ...)

Why bother?

1) Medium Armor (well, GOOD medium armor, lolhide) that druids will wear is not guaranteed to be available at all tables, especially at low levels.
They tend to be made of metal.

2) Dex is good for much more than just AC, so it's not like increasing Dex on your druid will go to waste or anything. (Well, it will if you're a moon druid, but then so will armor.)

[Sorinth]

There's always Shepherd druid where the front line is just summons, and Bear Spirit to give everyone some THP to absorb the lack of a frontline.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

There's always Shepherd druid where the front line is just summons, and Bear Spirit to give everyone some THP to absorb the lack of a frontline.

Yes, the only broken character I ever DMed. Since it's about the only subclass the OP didn't suggest I'd assume their table has the same dim view of this subclass.

[Sorinth]

Yes, the only broken character I ever DMed. Since it's about the only subclass the OP didn't suggest I'd assume their table has the same dim view of this subclass.

If they stick to the new Summon spells were you only get 1 creature it's not that OP and it can still act like a tank for the party.

[Leon]

The "Front Line" is what you make it, it doesn't need to be X classes and a DM isn't always going to adhere to the fact that there is a "frontline" anyway so play what you want to play that suits your inspiration best.

[DruidAlanon]

Thanks for all the ideas, people. This is quite helpful!


This just points out that I should clarify something. My goal isn't (unless I have to) to make a front-liner. It is to survive in a party without a front line.

There's a simple Spores druid build by Treantmonk that is front-liner from lvls 1-5 then midrange standard druid caster. The main trick is to pick Tortle as your class. AC 19, no need for Dex.

Ranger 3/Moon Druid X can also work

edit: Any moon druid rational build will work wonders tbh.

[KorvinStarmast]

But still, why bother?
Because I can do it naked, or wearing only a loincloth. :smalltongue: And, because it gives my wild shaped beast forms Better AC. :smallwink: Without using the messed up version of barkskin that this edition has (requires concentration). Since I tend to play control as a Druid, the spell progression issue isn't a big deal. My nephew has 1 level monk / level X cleric and has been effective the whole time this party has been adventuring together.

Also, will make a few more Dex saves.

Example: I turn into a Giant Eagle.

Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours.
You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However, you can’t use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense. AC becomes Dex bonus (17) plus wisdome bonus (20/+5) for an 18 AC. Normal giant eagle has AC 13.

Example 2: at third level, brown bear.
AC goes from 11 to 13 thanks to Wisdom 16 by using Monk AC calc.

[Willie the Duck]

Yes, the only broken character I ever DMed. Since it's about the only subclass the OP didn't suggest I'd assume their table has the same dim view of this subclass.

Solid reasoning, but the real reason was I missed a bullet point.

Update for all: Play started (level-up to 2 at end of session) and the group ended up being: Human Forge cleric, Half-elf Monk (going for Shadow), and Half-orc Fighter1-wizard1 (unsure whether this will end up as durable wizard or Eldritch-Knight-by-another-route).

I ended up going high-elf (with Tasha's pushed the +1 to Wis, Booming Blade as cantrip). Rolled well and ended up with Dex 14, Con 17, Wis 19; thinking my ASIs will be Mobility, Resilient:con and Fey Touched (Misty Step and Silvery Barbs). Treasure for adventure #1 was elven chain and DM (somewhat surprisingly) ruled that an elven druid of course would decide to wear it (I'm thinking so that it wasn't wasted with the monk and two guys going for heavy armor). Thus I have a Johnny Sticks-and-stones character - no visible armor, just a wooden shield, club, and sling (for Shillelagh and Magic Stone- the former of which will benefit from Booming Blade, the later will recede in value as I level). I levelled up and did pick Shepherd druid, but since we did no adventuring after, probably can still change my mind before next weekend.

Shepherd is interesting. With cheezing it to do things like conjure 8 wolves or giant bats and then doing bear spirit, it's... pretty insane and the kind of thing that might get soft-banned really quickly. Without that cheeze, it's... honestly a little tame-seeming. Summoning a single summon (or even conjure animals for two brown bears, or similar), then giving 5+level to me, it/them, the party, and maybe a familiar with my wild-shape use, and it's not overpowered (certainly considering what other concentration spells and abilities another druid might have/do). It seem necessary, if you are going to be using your summoned animals to fight fiends or the like at higher level, but at this point at least looks like most of the advantage is enhancement to a trigger I'm not sure I'd want to pull. At the same time I'm still looking at wildfire with lots of uses for their bonus-actions and wildshapes and who get to use a bunch of non-summon concentration spells; or a Stars Druid 2/ Fey Wanderer Ranger (since we have a cleric for the higher level spells) with ranged combat (possibly ask to retrain Booming Blade if going for Ranger 5+) with lots of skill bonuses and still 2 Starry forms/SR and Guiding bolts/day based on total proficiency.

All of which is to say I'm still on the fence about everything. Thanks for the input, everyone, this is genuinely quite helpful.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Solid reasoning, but the real reason was I missed a bullet point.

Update for all: Play started (level-up to 2 at end of session) and the group ended up being: Human Forge cleric, Half-elf Monk (going for Shadow), and Half-orc Fighter1-wizard1 (unsure whether this will end up as durable wizard or Eldritch-Knight-by-another-route).

I ended up going high-elf (with Tasha's pushed the +1 to Wis, Booming Blade as cantrip). Rolled well and ended up with Dex 14, Con 17, Wis 19; thinking my ASIs will be Mobility, Resilient:con and Fey Touched (Misty Step and Silvery Barbs). Treasure for adventure #1 was elven chain and DM (somewhat surprisingly) ruled that an elven druid of course would decide to wear it (I'm thinking so that it wasn't wasted with the monk and two guys going for heavy armor). Thus I have a Johnny Sticks-and-stones character - no visible armor, just a wooden shield, club, and sling (for Shillelagh and Magic Stone- the former of which will benefit from Booming Blade, the later will recede in value as I level). I levelled up and did pick Shepherd druid, but since we did no adventuring after, probably can still change my mind before next weekend.

Shepherd is interesting. With cheezing it to do things like conjure 8 wolves or giant bats and then doing bear spirit, it's... pretty insane and the kind of thing that might get soft-banned really quickly. Without that cheeze, it's... honestly a little tame-seeming. Summoning a single summon (or even conjure animals for two brown bears, or similar), then giving 5+level to me, it/them, the party, and maybe a familiar with my wild-shape use, and it's not overpowered (certainly considering what other concentration spells and abilities another druid might have/do). It seem necessary, if you are going to be using your summoned animals to fight fiends or the like at higher level, but at this point at least looks like most of the advantage is enhancement to a trigger I'm not sure I'd want to pull. At the same time I'm still looking at wildfire with lots of uses for their bonus-actions and wildshapes and who get to use a bunch of non-summon concentration spells; or a Stars Druid 2/ Fey Wanderer Ranger (since we have a cleric for the higher level spells) with ranged combat (possibly ask to retrain Booming Blade if going for Ranger 5+) with lots of skill bonuses and still 2 Starry forms/SR and Guiding bolts/day based on total proficiency.

All of which is to say I'm still on the fence about everything. Thanks for the input, everyone, this is genuinely quite helpful.

My experience on Shepherd might be a little extreme for a couple of reasons:

1) We were playing Descent into Avernus, so making the attacks of summoned creatures magical was effectively doubling their damage almost all of the time. Fiends don't have a lot of hp for their CR, and rely on BPS (and other) resistances for some staying power. Shepherd summoning eliminates this completely, so summoned creatures end up not only being tanks, but also strikers. Fiends can't, for example, just bypass the creatures to get to the party and take the OAs because the OAs hurt.
2) We had party of 5 + an NPC from the mod + a couple of familiars + a Death Cleric that tended to make a bunch of undead. The end result of that was that Bear Spirit hp were generally multiplied by over 20 creatures every time. When those temp hp were added to the hp from Mighty Summoner the Shepherd subclass was often responsible for over 1000 hp per day by level 7. 1000hp! By mid tier 2. Even if you fireballed the Death Cleric's skeletons they didn't die.

I still think with a regular party in a more generic campaign Shepherd is strong, and if you want to create a front line for a party that doesn't have one it would be about the most effective way.

[KorvinStarmast]

I still think with a regular party in a more generic campaign Shepherd is strong, and if you want to create a front line for a party that doesn't have one it would be about the most effective way. The Shepherd druid in my Salt Marsh campaign was very good. He focused mostly on support, but now and again he'd bring in fighting creatures (Giant Octopus, Dire Wolf, others) and could tip the scales. He recently swapped to Stars to change how he played a druid because he summoned a lot. Still going strong, but then, he's a very smart and imaginative player. Comes up with a lot of out-of-the-box moves and solutions.