Which build would you play? (DoMM)

[bsullivanp]

I've been all sorts of indecisive trying to settle on the best build for my upcoming Dungeon of the Mad Mage campaign taking us to level 20.

The party consists of a Padlock, Moon Druid, Glamour Bard, and Death Cleric.

With that lineup, I wanted to play a more mobile striker who could play melee frontline support and an out of combat scout. While I'm not necessarily looking for the "optimized" build, I would at least like it to be a competitive DPR against baseline across all tiers of play (knowing a MC could leave some awkward, dead levels at some point, but hopefully kept to a minimum).

After much exploration, I think I've settled on two builds. Both very similar in nature overall but different enough to give me pause. Out of these options, which would you play?

Common Summary:
Custom Lineage (for Darkvision at level 1)
Starting Stats (after racial bonuses): STR: 13 / DEX: 19 / CON: 14 / INT: 13 / WIS: 15 / CHA: 11
Feats: Sharpshooter (1st), Fighting Initiate - Archery (11th), Mobile (12th)
Fighting Style: Thrown Weapon

Option 1: Bandolier Battlemonk (Kensei / Battlemaster (16/4)
Background: A grizzled disciple of the Yellow Rose, who seeks discipline of both mind and body through strenuous practice. Mastering fighting techniques that push beyond the boundaries of normal mortals.
Summary: Dart throwing Nova damage Monk that uses Sharpshooter, Archery, and Thrown Weapon fighting as main combat technique, but supported by a massive Warhammer. Powered by Battlemaster Maneuvers (Quick Toss, Precision Strike), and Ki (Deft Strike, Ki-Fueled Attack) to ramp up DPR with Short Rest refreshed resources.
Pos:
- Two resource pools, both on SR, allow me to keep up the damage buffs & throw as many darts as possible (with Quick Toss and Ki Fueled Attack)
- Action Surge: Great Nova potential

Con:
- Maneuvers and Ki, while both on SR are also largely redundant
- Not really taking advantage of the dungeon setting with the build.

Option 2: Shinobi (Kensei / Gloomstalker (16/4)
Background: Stealthy stalker that preys upon enemies from the shadows.
Summary: Dart throwing Monk (but first a more traditional longbowman until level 8). Supported by Katana (Longsword), but still leverages Sharpshooter, Archery, and Thrown Weapon fighting as main combat technique. Strikes first and strikes hard.
Pos:
- Invisibility in Darkness, which feels tailor-made for DoMM
- High Initiative
- As long as can remain in darkness, Nova damage is largely resource free at the start of each fight.
- Simple Spells (Absorb Elements, Goodberry, Zephyr Strike/Hunters Mark)

Con:
- Will need to manage Ki more sparingly
- Lags a bit behind in DPR to Option 1 because Ranger fighting style delayed one level vs. fighter (which is a big deal because won't get second MC level until level 8).
- Nova damage not as good vs. Action Surge

Progression:
L1 (Ranger/Fighter 1) > L2-L7 (Monk 6) > L8-L9 (Ranger/Fighter 3) > L10-L11 (Monk 8) > L12 (Ranger/Fighter 4) > Monk L13-L20 (Monk 16)

Again, many may think I'm debating minutia. However, I believe these builds, even built largely the same, will play very differently. Which would you play? Or would None of the Above be your call (please note DM House rules are that I can only MC into ONE other class, so no Monk/Assassin/Fighter type builds).

Thanks.

[animorte]

Everyone else has spells so you might as well go Ranger, also better scout things. I personally prefer Rangers over Fighters any day though.

[KorvinStarmast]

The party consists of a Padlock, Moon Druid, Glamour Bard, and Death Cleric.
Common Summary:
Custom Lineage (for Darkvision at level 1)
Starting Stats (after racial bonuses): STR: 13 / DEX: 19 / CON: 14 / INT: 13 / WIS: 15 / CHA: 11
Feats: Sharpshooter (1st), Fighting Initiate - Archery (11th), Mobile (12th)
Fighting Style: Thrown Weapon

Your Kensei-Gloomstalker looks to me like the better fit. (I have a tendency to believe that a Monk is the nearly perfect '5th party member' in this edition, so that may inform my answer).
If I were going up to level 20 for sure, I'd be very tempted to do Gloomstalker 11 / Rogue(any) 9. Your monk choice is fine, though, in case you need to do magic damage or stun things.
Best of luck.

[RogueJK]

If I were going up to level 20 for sure, I'd be very tempted to do Gloomstalker 11 / Rogue(any) 9.

Agreed, plus you wouldn't need to make any changes to your stat spread.

If you're going after a thrown weapon build with the ability to hide in darkness and be stealthy, a Gloomstalker/Soulknife is a very good option. It would have a high damage output even without Sharpshooter, due to the combination of Sneak Attack plus a third BA thrown weapon attack always being available without expending any resources, and eventually the ability to convert misses into hits via abilities gained at Soulknife 9 and/or Gloomstalker 11, similar to the Kensei Monk's Focused Aim.

Considering DoMM runs 5-20, I'd probably start Soulknife 3/Ranger 2 to start out with Psychic Blades and Thrown Weapon fighting style, then take Gloomstalker Ranger to 5 by Level 8 to get your third attack and 2nd level spells online ASAP. Yes, this means you won't get your first ASI until Level 7, but your stats are so good that you don't need an early ASI, and you wouldn't need to take Sharpshooter or Fighting Initiate Archery, so you can afford to wait until Level 7.

Then decide from there whether you want to aim for Soulknife 15/Gloomstalker 5, or Gloomstalker 11/Soulknife 9, or Soulknife 13/Gloomstalker 7, or some other combo, and let that guide your further progression.

Consider going with a Small Custom Lineage PC with Squat Nimbleness as your Level 1 feat for 35' movement and 20 DEX from the start. (The Small size has no effect on a character like this, since you aren't going to be Grappling or wielding Heavy weapons anyway.) Then you could take Fey Touched at your first ASI for 16 WIS and some additional spellcasting, followed by +2 WIS or Mobile or Lucky or something else at your subsequent ASIs.

Or another good choice would be to go with a Small sized Owlin, gaining flight, 120' Darkvision (double distance for more effective scouting), racial Stealth proficiency, and 16 WIS at the start, and then taking Squat Nimblesness for 20 DEX and +5 movement at your first ASI. Throwing Psychic Blades from 60' away in the air is a great way to avoid attacks, and the ability to fly makes you an even more effective scout.

[KorvinStarmast]

Agreed, plus you wouldn't need to make any changes to your stat spread.

If you're going after a thrown weapon build with the ability to hide in darkness and be stealthy, a Gloomstalker/Soulknife is a very good option.
Oooh, I had not considered Soulknife: great idea! :smallsmile:

Considering DoMM runs 5-20, I'd probably start Soulknife 3/Ranger 2 to start out with Psychic Blades and Thrown Weapon fighting style, then take Gloomstalker Ranger to 5 by Level 8 to get your third attack and 2nd level spells online ASAP. Yes, this means you won't get your first ASI until Level 7, but your stats are so good that you don't need an early ASI, and you wouldn't need to take Sharpshooter or Fighting Initiate Archery, so you can afford to wait until Level 7.

Then consider from there whether you want to aim for Soulknife 15/Gloomstalker 5, or Gloomstalker 11/Soulknife 9, or Soulknife 13/Gloomstalker 7, or some other combo, and let that guide your further progression. Nice advice for the OP. I am now bummed that I can't get into a DoMM game ... this looks like a great MC opportunity.

[bsullivanp]

If you're going after a thrown weapon build with the ability to hide in darkness and be stealthy, a Gloomstalker/Soulknife is a very good option..

That sounds great, but would the thrown weapon fighting style solve the Soulknife’s biggest flaw (The inability to OA due to RAW saying psychic knives only manifest on an attack action and not a reaction)? I know our DM follows RAW pretty closely.

[RogueJK]

That would be up to your DM.

There's absolutely no reason why a Soulknife shouldn't be able to make OAs with a Psychic Blade. That's basically little more than a simple oversight in the wording of the ability. But currently RAW, they can only manifest them for attacks made on their turn.

If your DM is a real stickler for that, then yes, you could use the Thrown Weapon fighting style ability to draw a dagger when an OA is triggered and then use it to make an OA.

Same with making your Extra Attack from Ranger 5. This one can be argued, since it isn't as explicitly clear RAW and can be interpreted either way. But again, there's absolutely no reason to deny a Soulknife multiclass from being able to make an Extra Attack with a Psychic Blade too. But if your DM firmly declares that they won't allow your to make your Extra Attack using a Psychic Blade, you can use the Thrown Weapon fighting style ability to draw and use a dagger for your Extra Attack.