After the rules on sleep deprivation

[pabelfly]

I'm after the rules for keeping characters awake for a long period (over several days) and what conditions and penalties this imposes on characters. Context - the players might choose to be guards and will need to protect civilians for several days and I expect they will be repeatedly awoken during the night. The intent is to have people play with the penalties imposed, or have some characters rest during combat.

Where can I read up on the rules for this?

[KillianHawkeye]

Assuming 3.5/PF, I'm pretty sure there aren't any specific rules for long-term sleep deprivation, however the Fatigued and Exhausted conditions would seem to be applicable.

I would suggest that Fatigue apply if the PCs cannot get a proper full night's rest, and that Exhaustion should result after repeated restless nights (how many it takes is up to you). You could even offer an increasingly difficult Fortitude save to avoid the Fatigue, if you're feeling generous or you expect the situation to last a long time.

[pabelfly]

Assuming 3.5/PF, I'm pretty sure there aren't any specific rules for long-term sleep deprivation, however the Fatigued and Exhausted conditions would seem to be applicable.

I would suggest that Fatigue apply if the PCs cannot get a proper full night's rest, and that Exhaustion should result after repeated restless nights (how many it takes is up to you). You could even offer an increasingly difficult Fortitude save to avoid the Fatigue, if you're feeling generous or you expect the situation to last a long time.

Ah okay. I could use the Forced March rules then, since they impose nonlethal damage and fatigue penalties.

[Buufreak]

Do keep in mind that after about 4 days without sleep, people start becoming very paranoid, begin to hallucinate, and usually around the 7 or 8 day mark, simply die. There are outliers, as with all things, but noting here that eventually, just fatigue and exhaustion aren't quite severe enough. At least not for common mortals.

[Crake]

I swear I remember there being rules for insomnia in elder evils, as one of them prevented people from sleeping, but I can't find them again...

Edit: Wait, found it. Page 9, elder evils, the strong sign of Appalling Fecundity.


Living creatures that require sleep lose the ability to do so, as their bodies fidget and their thoughts race. Physical exhaustion sets in, and eventually minds break. A living creature can go without sleep for a number of days equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum one). Thereafter it is fatigued, remaining in this state for a number of days equal to its Constitution modifier (again, minimum one); if it would become fatigued during that time, it is exhausted instead. Each day after that period, the creature takes 1 point of Wisdom damage. If the total Wisdom damage exceeds its Hit Dice, the creature is affected as if by an insanity spell. Once its Wisdom score drops to 0, the creature becomes unconscious but cannot recover lost Wisdom naturally.
Only a sleep or deep slumber spell or equivalent effect can grant rest for a time, after which the effects of the sign begin anew.

So by those rules, the average person (12 or less con, 1 HD) can go 3 days of sleep before beginning to go insane.

[Zancloufer]

Fatigued can be "cured" by a full nights (default 8) of sleep. Exhausted is much worse but it only 1 hour of rest to "cure". I suppose you could make them have Fortitude or Con checks after going multiple days without sleep to avoid Fatigue with it getting harder each time they succeed. Exhausted would kick in if they fail a save after already being Fatigued.

A more pressing issue with this is that if you make them "Fatigued" from lack of sleep many per day abilities/spells would not recharge. That's (almost) worse than the Fatigue/Exhaustion penalties.

[Crake]

A more pressing issue with this is that if you make them "Fatigued" from lack of sleep many per day abilities/spells would not recharge. That's (almost) worse than the Fatigue/Exhaustion penalties.

Theres nothing that I’m aware of that says not getting rest, or being fatigued, prevents the recharging of daily abilities (arcane spellcasting/psionics being the only exceptions I can think of off the top of my head), unless this was a suggestion, not a citation?

[Biggus]

Do keep in mind that after about 4 days without sleep, people start becoming very paranoid, begin to hallucinate, and usually around the 7 or 8 day mark, simply die.

The first part is certainly true, but where are you getting the bit about usually dying after 7 or 8 days from? From what I've read, lack of sleep takes weeks to months to actually kill somebody (although there's not enough data to really form a meaningful average).

[Buufreak]

The first part is certainly true, but where are you getting the bit about usually dying after 7 or 8 days from? From what I've read, lack of sleep takes weeks to months to actually kill somebody (although there's not enough data to really form a meaningful average).

I remember reading about it in medschool. Don't have the notes or text on me, and it very well could have more research done on it since. But the concensus was after about a week, organs and brain function deteriorate to a point where you can simply shut down entirely and die.

[Zombimode]

Considering that I had experienced periods in which I didn't sleep for several days (like 3-4) multiple times in my life without suffering any adverse effects other then being tired I kinda doubt that the effects are as drastic.

Or maybe it also depends on what "no sleep" means in particular. In my cases I still got to lay down for the night in a tent or in bed. I just didn't sleep.

[Biggus]

I remember reading about it in medschool. Don't have the notes or text on me, and it very well could have more research done on it since. But the concensus was after about a week, organs and brain function deteriorate to a point where you can simply shut down entirely and die.


Considering that I had experienced periods in which I didn't sleep for several days (like 3-4) multiple times in my life without suffering any adverse effects other then being tired I kinda doubt that the effects are as drastic.

Or maybe it also depends on what "no sleep" means in particular. In my cases I still got to lay down for the night in a tent or in bed. I just didn't sleep.

According to my understanding, the body can manage fine with just rest, it's the brain that needs actual sleep. If you didn't get any mental effects after 3-4 days you were doing well, in most people they start in just 2-3 days (they do for me).

There have been studies done on rats where they were forcibly kept awake, but as that involved painful stimuli to force them to stay awake, you can't really compare that to people voluntarily going without sleep. The last of the rats died after 32 days.

The official record for staying awake without stimulants is 11 and a bit days, and he suffered no serious ill effects. There's also a disease which causes total insomnia, and that typically takes 6-30 months to kill people.

So while some people might die as soon as a week, I don't think that's typical.