What monsters are most dangerous?

[Quertus]

Imagine you’re hearing about a new system / campaign setting / whatever, and the creator says, “there’s lots of different creatures, and the most powerful is…”. If they finish that sentence with “goblins”, there’s probably some confusion in the listeners’ minds.

So, question is, what things could finish that sentence without dissonance? What things would the listener just think, “makes sense”? What monsters just work as the most powerful in the land?

[Notafish]

Dragons, Giants, Godzilla (or other unique, named monster), Gods, Titans, Dinosaurs, Sandworms, Man, Legendary Pokemon.

[Quertus]

Dragons, Giants, Godzilla (or other unique, named monster), Gods, Titans, Dinosaurs, Sandworms, Man, Legendary Pokemon.

Ooh, cool. I only had about half of those. Although… conceptually, what’s the difference between “Godzilla” and “legendary Pokémon”?

[Notafish]

Ooh, cool. I only had about half of those. Although… conceptually, what’s the difference between “Godzilla” and “legendary Pokémon”?

I think it depends on the atmosphere you're going for - I guess I was thinking of Godzilla as a terrifying encounter, where just the fact that the monster is awake means things are going badly. On the other hand, seeing a legendary Pokemon might be more of an exciting thing that you seek out, despite the potential danger.

I guess another plausible level of unique "monster" that is distinct in my mind from what I listed above would be very powerful non-god characters (think Dracula or Superman) - they might be as powerful as a small-g god, but their motives are usually more understandable from a human perspective.

Other possibilities that I thought of: collectives - which could just be loose groups of that are only really scary/powerful as a group (like "the Vampires", "the Demons of Hell", "the Cult of Mephisto", "the Empire") or swarms and hiveminds like the Borg.

[PhoenixPhyre]

In my experience, the most dangerous monster to player characters is the dread homo sapiens--their own players, in fact.

[animorte]

Tucker's Kobolds (https://media.wizards.com/2014/downloads/dnd/TuckersKobolds.pdf) always come to mind.

I love the note on Pokemon, but if you'll notice, they don't have to be even remotely close to Legendary in order to be extremely deadly. It just lives in a world of level 100 critical Hyper Beams merely ending in a KO on the pitiful level 1 target. The Legendary Pokemon are possibly deadly on a continental or global scale, but even regular low-level Pokemon can wreak impressive amounts of havoc.


In my experience, the most dangerous monster to player characters is the dread homo sapiens--their own players, in fact.
Own worst enemy? No way! :smallbiggrin:

On this note, some of the most deadly enemies my players have faced would be NPCs that I built with class levels, generally an intended PC that I just haven't had the opportunity to play myself.

Also worth note, more deadly than any monster (or opponent of whatever label) is the way they are played and the environment in which the encounter is taking place.

[johnbragg]

Ooh, cool. I only had about half of those. Although… conceptually, what’s the difference between “Godzilla” and “legendary Pokémon”?

Godzilla is a relatively normal earth animal (lizard) scaled up to gargantuan size. Pokemon are monsters / creatures with all kinds of physics-defying powers (beyond just being too huge to support its mass like Godzilla) that can be caught in containers.

Godzilla as the biggest, baddest thing in the setting doesn't fill in much of the rest of the world. Legendary pokemon tells you that the setting is full of pokemon.

[Pauly]

Monsters that can’t be dealt with by conventional means and those that do existential damage, i.e.. they don’t just kill your body they destroy/steal your soul.

Nazgûl for example can’t be killed except by plot device and they can turn their victims into lesser versions of themselves. Smaug has much more raw power, but he only kills your body and can be killed by sticking a piece of sharp steel into the right spot. Nazgûl are more terrifying than dragons. The Balrog fits between Smaug and the Nazgûl, but the books are less clear on their powers/vulnerabilities.

Vampires are usually considered more scary than werewolves. If you get turned into a vampire you lose your humanity and, depending on the mythos, under the control of the original vampire. Being turned into a Werewolf traditionally means you are human for 27 days out of 28 and you aren’t under the control of the werewolf who bit you.

Old school level draining undead were the scariest monsters to face in traditional D&D. iirc getting killed by them meant you lost your character sheet and you couldn’t be resurrected. Add in that back in the day these monsters could only be hit by sufficiently high enough level magic weapons. Given a choice of fighting a tarasque or old school LDU, I’m off to fight the tarasque thank you very much.

Original demons and devils that want to bind your soul to hell are scarier than D&D demons and devils that are physical monsters from another plane.

Edit to add:
I’d propose a 3 dimensional model to assess how dangerous a monster is.
- X axis - how hard are they to kill?
- Y axis - how destructive are they? Are they a threat to you, your neighborhood, your city?
- Z axis - how do they threaten your person. In rough ascending order of pucker factor.
Kill you
Kill you and eat you
Eat you alive
Immobilize you and feed you alive to their babies.
Destroy your soul (*)
Trap your soul in torment for eternity. (*)
(*) = requires there to be an in universe afterlife.

[stoutstien]

Imagine you’re hearing about a new system / campaign setting / whatever, and the creator says, “there’s lots of different creatures, and the most powerful is…”. If they finish that sentence with “goblins”, there’s probably some confusion in the listeners’ minds.

So, question is, what things could finish that sentence without dissonance? What things would the listener just think, “makes sense”? What monsters just work as the most powerful in the land?

Something either intangible or mostly unknown.(unknown in both a meta and in-game POV).

[KorvinStarmast]

Dragons, Giants, Godzilla (or other unique, named monster), Gods, Titans, Dinosaurs, Sandworms, Man, Legendary Pokemon. In D&D 5e; Wraiths, shadows specters, ghosts, banshees, Wights in combinations.

For a party in Tier 1 or low Tier 2, this battle can snowball and turn into a party wipe with members raised s specters in service to one of the Wraiths.

Also worth note, more deadly than any monster (or opponent of whatever label) is the way they are played and the environment in which the encounter is taking place. A dozen soldiers ably led defeat a hundred without a head.

[Anonymouswizard]

Imagine you’re hearing about a new system / campaign setting / whatever, and the creator says, “there’s lots of different creatures, and the most powerful is…”. If they finish that sentence with “goblins”, there’s probably some confusion in the listeners’ minds.

So, question is, what things could finish that sentence without dissonance? What things would the listener just think, “makes sense”? What monsters just work as the most powerful in the land?

He doesn't let anyone roll the dice...

Seriously, with a Tucker's Kobolds setup and some explosive breeding minor mooks can easily be the most civilization-destroying threat.


Engaging a bit more with the question, 'other people'. They're the most likely to have plans you're interfering with and the ones you're most likely to be running into. In a really high-scale game like Nobilis 'the nobility of the void that predated reality' might be up there, but the thing is that they're still to a greater or lesser extent people. At the end of the day the most dangerous creature is a person with a goal, the means to achieve it, and no desire to see you survive.

[Raven777]

Your question is a bit vague. Are you asking to answer in the context of traditional tropes? Then the traditional threats would be the likes of dragons, primordial abominations like the Tarrasque, inscrutable outsiders like Nightwalkers, Demon Lords and Devil Princes, eldritch aberrations like Mind Flayers, and so on.

Are you asking to answer in the context of subverting expectations? Then highly organized, guerilla-happy Kobolds, Goblins or Troglodytes could absolutely be the most credible threat to civilization. Or simple but effective giant beasts like good ol' board favourite the Monstrous Crab (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?311055-why-is-monstrous-crab-so-infamous).

[Lord Torath]

Carrion crawler? Eight attacks that cause paralysis on touch is pretty dangerous, especially if there are several of them coming at once.

I always liked the bulette for a dangerous monster, especially if you're a halfling.

[Easy e]

I agree with other adventurers* as the most dangerous of all.

Anything the players can do, they can to; and they might even be better at it.




*= Insert whatever is appropriate for the system such as adventurers, shadowrunners, ship crews, Inquisitorial Calls, Space Marine Squads, Samurai, etc.

[Kurt Kurageous]

In D&D 5e; Wraiths, shadows specters, ghosts, banshees, Wights in combinations.

For a party in Tier 1 or low Tier 2, this battle can snowball and turn into a party wipe with members raised s specters in service to one of the Wraiths.

Banshees + multiple will o'wisps can be particularly deadly. Banshee drops target to 0 HP, will o'wisp makes them dead-dead in the same turn. The banshees can track life 5 miles away, fly to avoid effects of terrain, or simply move through them. The will o'wisps follow in flight and remain invisible until a target drops from the banshee wail. They can attempt to consume life as only a bonus action, them use action to go invisible again...just nasty.

Masses of shadows are also dangerous when they attack low STR & low AC PCs.

And then there's illithids like the intellect devourer, a completely under rated in CR nightmare.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Banshees + multiple will o'wisps can be particularly deadly. Banshee drops target to 0 HP, will o'wisp makes them dead-dead in the same turn. The banshees can track life 5 miles away, fly to avoid effects of terrain, or simply move through them. The will o'wisps follow in flight and remain invisible until a target drops from the banshee wail. They can attempt to consume life as only a bonus action, them use action to go invisible again...just nasty.

Masses of shadows are also dangerous when they attack low STR & low AC PCs.

And then there's illithids like the intellect devourer, a completely under rated in CR nightmare.

Heck, just massed banshees works. Had a party lose two of six to dead dead and two others to 0 HP (dragged away before getting smacked to death) by four banshees. Sure, you might make one save. But 4? Repeatedly? No so fun.

[KorvinStarmast]

The most dangerous creature is probably Stobor.
What? It's the monster that you don't recognize, or don't prepare for, until it's too late.
From the book Tunnel in the Sky by Robert Heinlein.
The last advice that the students receive is to "watch out for stobor".

[Quertus]

Your question is a bit vague. Are you asking to answer in the context of traditional tropes? Then the traditional threats would be the likes of dragons, primordial abominations like the Tarrasque, inscrutable outsiders like Nightwalkers, Demon Lords and Devil Princes, eldritch aberrations like Mind Flayers, and so on.

Are you asking to answer in the context of subverting expectations? Then highly organized, guerilla-happy Kobolds, Goblins or Troglodytes could absolutely be the most credible threat to civilization. Or simple but effective giant beasts like good ol' board favourite the Monstrous Crab (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?311055-why-is-monstrous-crab-so-infamous).

I’m not asking for subversions - consider this a search for a litmus test for if I say “unicorns are the most dangerous things in the world”, should I expect confusion*? Or… if every reality sends their “champion”, and I see a dozen such champions step forth, what would be accepted, vs what would be startling? (Now, some gaming realities don’t have much diversity, so their pool for potential entries is limited. I’m trying to discount that scenario.)

I’ve seen numerous sources that have lots of monsters, and put Vampires at the top. Few of those have Dragons, which readily take the top spot in numerous other worlds. Gods, titans, and… “inscrutable outsiders” are also common top dogs. Unique monsters (Godzilla, legendary Pokémon) and even unique individuals can be the top dog of their realm (although, if that’s the case, it’s becoming increasingly common for that unique individual to have been Isekai’d, to my chagrin - “the best person in your company/family/reality/whatever is the guy from outside it” is not a mindset I encourage).

It’s really kinda weird when 99+% of a race is ignorable cannon fodder, but then you’ve got your saitama, Vader, or dark schneider. It’s a really rare world where your *average* Human is considered the most dangerous out of many species… looks around… oh, wait… :smallamused:

Angels and Demons, while strong… well, sometimes they’re racially the top dog, or there’s an Angel or Demon at the top of their hierarchy that’s actually the strongest thing in the universe, I guess. But usually they go hand in hand with deities, and this play second harp. Shrug. Borg… aren’t sufficiently Borg. They aren’t *really* one cohesive whole, one mind with trillions of arms; if they were, they’d be a reasonable entry. Maybe some reality has something like that?

What else?

Things which are intangible, or of extraordinary scope (living planet, living plane, electron-sized, etc), or are a concept (“hunger”, “hatred”) or even an AI are really difficult for most beings to grasp (heh). So I, at least, could accept a reality considering them “top dog” by virtue of having no real way to deal with them.

And while certain monsters are certainly scary to players, I’m more after an “acknowledged strongest race” kind of thing than a “plz not rust monster ghosts again”.



Superman

“Kryptonian” was already on my list, due to (among other things) an experience involving Isekai and polymorphing spells and debates about the definitions of races / species.

* Dagnabbit, is it possible that the strongest creature / race in a My Little Pony universe could be a unicorn?!

EDIT:
Carrion crawler?

Yeah, actually, I’d believe this one, personally.

[Duff]

The one where it's threat level was set too low in the book
The one which has special abilities the party are unusually bad at dealing with (for their level)
The one who's abilities benefit from clever play and you have a clever GM

But which ones should be the greatest threats in a setting?
Others have named lots of species and classes of monsters that might be apex threats in a given setting

To let us give better answers we probably need to know why are you asking?
Do you want suggestions for your home brew setting about what monster the veterans at the adventurer's guild talk about?
Do you want to know which monster name to drop to make the players "pucker"?
Or are you wanting game specific advice about how to challenge a powerful party?

[Quertus]

But which ones should be the greatest threats in a setting?
Others have named lots of species and classes of monsters that might be apex threats in a given setting

To let us give better answers we probably need to know why are you asking?
Do you want suggestions for your home brew setting about what monster the veterans at the adventurer's guild talk about?
Do you want to know which monster name to drop to make the players "pucker"?
Or are you wanting game specific advice about how to challenge a powerful party?

I’m… not sure why I’m asking. I… may have had a specific reason? I don’t remember (Darn senility). I remember a lot of the little things that led to the question, like all the realms that have a defined “strongest monster”.

Seems most likely I was after ideas for creating a new world with a different monster lineup, and probably something different as the apex predator, and wondering what was believable, or looking for ideas I hadn’t used before, or something.

[tyckspoon]

* Dagnabbit, is it possible that the strongest creature / race in a My Little Pony universe could be a unicorn?!

An alicorn, specifically (wings + unicorn horn and capable of expressing the magic of all the varieties of pony.) Celestia and Luna would probably be positioned comparable to legendary Pokemon, with notable personal power and demonstrating an influence over an aspect of the world on at least a regional scale? Although there are a number of other powerful creatures in that universe that could claim to compete, with full grown dragons and .. a weird reality warping demigod thing also present.

Hmm. In a more broad sense, I think you can certainly have nearly anything as the 'most powerful creature' of a setting.. Like, generically speaking, imagine a power source. Call it magic or Essence or Spark or whatever term you care to prefer. What kind of creature is most naturally rich in or proficient in making use of this power? That's probably your 'most powerful', on average, and all you need to make that whatever arbitrary creature you desire is a worldbuilding decision as to -why- they are best at the power.. So I suppose a lot really depends on what you hope to evoke in your listener when you tell them what the 'most powerful' creature is? Do you -want- them to think 'oh, that sounds right, this is probably a lot like something I'm already familiar with' or do you want them to go 'Huh? You gotta tell me how that works, that sounds interesting'?