Human Wizard (White Robe) - Dragonlance Campaign. War Wizard or Evocation?

[Tawmis]

So I am waiting for the final person to decide what they're playing (so far we have: Human Fighter [Knight of Solamnia], Minotaur Fighter [Battlemaster], ? Bard [Lore], Dark Elf Artificer [Alchemist], [Person I Am Waiting For] - and I am between a Kender Rogue, and a Human [White Robe Mage])....

Now the reason I am waiting for the other person to decide is because - I was invited to this game (the rest all know each other since like High School, which was a long time ago) at the start of Storm King's Thunder [DM is my former boss]). So I am the new kid on the block, although we've officially played with each other now, for like 4 years. Also, because I absolutely love Dragonlance, I'd like the others to play whatever they want - and I know, no matter what I end up with, I am going to enjoy it).

Now, if the other player picks Kender (Anything), I will go with my Human Wizard, and let them enjoy the Kender. If they pick some kind of melee or caster, I will do my Kender Rogue. The Kender Rogue will continue up the thief path, because it seems the most Kender'esque thing to do.

The question I have been trying to figure out is where to go if I go with my Human Wizard.

With Dragonlance, it's during a time of War... so a War Wizard seems logical. Like that's what you would have trained in.

However, I am thinking - with at least two melee who will be rushing in (Knight and Battlemaster), Evocation may be a better choice, so I can eventually shape the fireballs, and other AOE type spells to avoid them. That has two benefits - doesn't damage my party and also doesn't hold me back from casting spells I may want to cast.

So, so far I am leaning Evocation.

Just looking at what others would think (no spoilers from the adventure, please - I have it, but only skimmed it prior to knowing we'd be playing in it - now I keep it closed, except to look up the Wizard stuff (feats, different things they get depending on the Robe, etc)) :D

[DarknessEternal]

Evocation was banned to white wizards, so probably not either of those.

[Tawmis]

Evocation was banned to white wizards, so probably not either of those.

Is that in the 5e Dragonlance book? (Like I said, trying not to look too deep in the book itself to avoid spoilers)

[Atranen]

Evocation will feel much more thematic for what you're going for. War Wizard is a solid subclass but its abilities are very generic--an initiative boost and a save boost at 2, a fluff feature at 6, and another armor and save boost at 10. You'll feel stronger, but nothing about it says "I'm trained for war".

Evocation, in contrast, gets a very flavorful ability that works well with large parties and will make you feel different than other wizards. You can take evocation and say 'they were trained for war' and end up feeling like that character more so than war wizard.

I'd only suggest war wizard if it's a pretty high optimization party. The benefits to maintaining concentration and initiative make it a bit stronger than evocation.

[DarknessEternal]

Is that in the 5e Dragonlance book? (Like I said, trying not to look too deep in the book itself to avoid spoilers)

No, it's from the novels.

[Tawmis]

No, it's from the novels.

Ah, yes. So, because it's D&D... the DM is allowing normal races and classes; though he expects some reason to explain if you pick something outside of Dragonlance's norm (for races/species/whatever). So for example, he's allowing some (if they had wanted to), be a Tiefling - he'd just expected some background in the character background as to how a Tiefling would exist in Dragonlance (which, over all, while never in the novels; since Takhisis did rule in Hell, it stands to reason demons would exist, and as such Tieflings). So the DM is allowing for any class (restrictions that were from the novels are out the window) as well.

So for example, the "Dark Elf Artificer" is technically a "Drow" - and while Drow did not exist in Dragonlance, I wrote something up for the DM to explain how "Drow-like" elves might have existed (sans the "Spider-fetish") -

Things to note: Durth in Dwarven means "Strange" and I just added "-Thax" since a long of dwarven Kingdoms had that, so I assume it'd mean something close to "Strange Kingdom"... https://dragonlance.fandom.com/wiki/Dwarven_Language
The other lore (Crematia and the giving Dragon Stones) is part of the normal Dragonlance lore. https://dragonlance.fandom.com/wiki/Thorin

The rest wrote itself as I sat down and let my imagination run wild. 😄

Meyver Lhee has only heard stories of the proud Silvanesti – the Elven Kingdom, hailed as the most beautiful kingdom. However, during the start of the Third Dragon War, her mother was among many others who fled Silvanesti seeking shelter from the war that was brewing. After all, during the Second Dragon War, Silvanesti had been attacked by the dark forces, which included: the bakali, ogres and Chromatic Dragons.

With the forests unsafe, the Silvanesti sought refuge among the Dwarves of Thorin (Hiel-Thax) for their part in handing over the Dragon Stones to Crematia, the ferocious red dragon which had led to the attack on Silvanesti. However, the Dwarves wanted to hide their shame and did not want the Elves walking among them as a constant reminder of their cowardice. The Dwarves offered a section of their kingdom, much further down and long abandoned in favor of their new kingdom, where the lava flowed, allowing for their smithing to be done more efficiently. The abandoned kingdom offered to the elves was known as Durth-Thax.

With no natural light, the Elves adapted by learning the ecology of Durth-Thax and life beneath the mountains, where most of the light was by small pools of bubbling lava or the odd vegetation – such as the fantastic purple mushrooms the Dwarves had called marman fungus. The Elves of Durth-Thax learned to become expert alchemists, mixing the various vegetation to create healing potions as well as other useful potions because while life in Silvanesti had been walled, and relatively safe; Durth-Thax was full of various dangers that none of the Elves were accustomed to. The occasional dwarf that came down to Durth-Thax to check on the elves and trade with them and warning them of the various dangers that lingered beneath the mountains. The Dwarves had often asked if the elves had wanted to return to Silvanesti and leave Durth-Thax, while some did; the majority had remained. They’d discovered that being free of the walled city brought danger and risk into their lives; but they were truly, perhaps for the first time, in hundreds of years, feeling alive and free.

As the Elves of Durth-Thax adapted to life beneath the mountain an interesting side effect began to take place. Similar to how all the stone in Durth-Thax and most of Heil-Thax was a dark, black stone, so did the elves discover that their own flesh tone began to adapt; whether this was evolution to allow them to more easily hide in shadow, or if it had been because of an unseen chemical that was reacting to the genetic make-up of the Elves, who were not native to Durth-Thax and had no tolerance for whatever was drifting in the air, remains unknown.

Meyver Lhee was born in Durth-Thax, this had been the only life she’d ever known, and like all of her family before her, she was extremely skilled alchemist. However, the stories she’d heard about where her family had come from – Silvanesti had often called to her when she slept. More so, when the dwarves of late, whom visited and traded with the Elves of Durth-Thax, that they’d heard rumors of a war brewing in the outside world… the world beyond the mountain… and something in Meyver Lhee called to her to venture forth… take what she knew of potions and see what the world outside looked like…

The player, ended up coming up with the fact that the Cataclysm had caused such a ripple across the multiverse that it teleported some Drow to Krynn (which also works).

So as long as D&D ruleset doesn't create a restriction, we're free to go after it.


Evocation will feel much more thematic for what you're going for. War Wizard is a solid subclass but its abilities are very generic--an initiative boost and a save boost at 2, a fluff feature at 6, and another armor and save boost at 10. You'll feel stronger, but nothing about it says "I'm trained for war".
Evocation, in contrast, gets a very flavorful ability that works well with large parties and will make you feel different than other wizards. You can take evocation and say 'they were trained for war' and end up feeling like that character more so than war wizard.
I'd only suggest war wizard if it's a pretty high optimization party. The benefits to maintaining concentration and initiative make it a bit stronger than evocation.

Yeah I was leaning more towards Evocation, because I don't want the player's sighing when I say, "I cast fireball" and they're engaged with the same Big Bad of the session.

[Rafaelfras]

Go evocation. It's way above war mage in benefits. Sculp spells alone will help so much that every time you cast a fireball you will be happy that you chose that subclass.
When you take +int on your spells on lvl 10 your magic missile will become a nuke and finally overchanel is the cherry on top.
Being playing one for 8 years now and never regretted

[Tawmis]

Go evocation. It's way above war mage in benefits. Sculp spells alone will help so much that every time you cast a fireball you will be happy that you chose that subclass.
When you take +int on your spells on lvl 10 your magic missile will become a nuke and finally overchanel is the cherry on top.
Being playing one for 8 years now and never regretted

Yeah; when I compare them (all of them, actually) - Evocation seems to be the best over all.
In terms of how it works, as well, as for enjoyable game play.
You can cast any spell you want without impact to the other players (or their characters), alone, seems like a massive benefit.

[BullyWog]

I love evocation. The level six ability of cantrips now do half damage on a save has gotten some bad reviews, but get to a level 11 and Toll dead is doing 3 D12 with half damage on a save and suddenly it seems worthwhile.

[Rafaelfras]

I love evocation. The level six ability of cantrips now do half damage on a save has gotten some bad reviews, but get to a level 11 and Toll dead is doing 3 D12 with half damage on a save and suddenly it seems worthwhile.

Justice be told toll of the dead came only after. But I don't like that ability still. But alas evoker is so good that it can afford a bad feature

[Snivlem]

If you want to be a blaster, play an evocation wizard. It is fine.

If you want the more optimal pick, war wizard is an overall much stronger subclass. Its abilities apart from level 6 are top tier. Apart from chonorgy, it is probably the strongest wizard subclass. Though some find it boring (I don't. I think failing saves is boring)



You can cast any spell you want without impact to the other players (or their characters), alone, seems like a massive benefit.

Sculpt spells only works on evocation spells.

[Witty Username]

No, it's from the novels.

Fizban could cast fireball, and he is a white robe.
It was the specialization of red robes, but as I understood they could all use the schools unless they were separately a specialist wizard (using the normal rules for that)

[Rafaelfras]

Fizban could cast fireball, and he is a white robe.
It was the specialization of red robes, but as I understood they could all use the schools unless they were separately a specialist wizard (using the normal rules for that)

And he surely had sculp spells at it :D
Love that scene when he cast a fireball to open cage

[KorvinStarmast]

Human Fighter [Knight of Solamnia], Minotaur Fighter [Battlemaster], ? Bard [Lore], Dark Elf Artificer [Alchemist], [Person I Am Waiting For] - and I am between a Kender Rogue, and a Human [White Robe Mage]).... Suggest Human White Robe Mage, your party's bard can skill monkey well enough. ( My lore bard was our party's skill monkey).


However, I am thinking - with at least two melee who will be rushing in (Knight and Battlemaster), Evocation may be a better choice, so I can eventually shape the fireballs, and other AOE type spells to avoid them. That has two benefits - doesn't damage my party and also doesn't hold me back from casting spells I may want to cast.
Not just fireball. Also thunderwave. At early levels, being able to stand behind the front row and whack the melee enemies with thunderwave at no risk to the party is handy.


So as long as D&D ruleset doesn't create a restriction, we're free to go after it. Our evocation wizard at level 10 (I am a warlock) is still rockin' and rollin'.

I love evocation. The level six ability of cantrips now do half damage on a save has gotten some bad reviews, but get to a level 11 and Toll dead is doing 3 D12 with half damage on a save and suddenly it seems worthwhile. A bit better than acid splash unless the targets bunch up.

[DarknessEternal]

Fizban could cast fireball, and he is a white robe.
Fizban was a greater god, not a white robe wizard.

[Psyren]

Sculpt spells only works on evocation spells.

True, but that's still a huge benefit - giving every ally evasion against your damage spells is nice enough, an there are a number of save-or-lose evocation spells that can be pretty nasty to your allies, like Sickening Radiance, Binding Ice and Faerie Fire (obtainable racially or via feat), if you're unable to avoid hitting them.

[Snivlem]

True, but that's still a huge benefit - giving every ally evasion against your damage spells is nice enough, an there are a number of save-or-lose evocation spells that can be pretty nasty to your allies, like Sickening Radiance, Binding Ice and Faerie Fire (obtainable racially or via feat), if you're unable to avoid hitting them.

Oh I didnt say it was bad at all (And it is even better than giving your teammates evasion btw.) I just don't think it compares to what war magic offers at level 2: +3-5 to initative every single combat, +4 to every save out of combat, and the option to take +4 to a save or a +2 to ac when you need it in combat.

[KorvinStarmast]

Oh I didnt say it was bad at all (And it is even better than giving your teammates evasion btw.) I just don't think it compares to what war magic offers at level 2: +3-5 to initative every single combat, +4 to every save out of combat, and the option to take +4 to a save or a +2 to ac when you need it in combat. I need to review that sub class again, but it looked to me like a very playable wizard.

[Tawmis]

Suggest Human White Robe Mage, your party's bard can skill monkey well enough. ( My lore bard was our party's skill monkey).
Not just fireball. Also thunderwave. At early levels, being able to stand behind the front row and whack the melee enemies with thunderwave at no risk to the party is handy.
Our evocation wizard at level 10 (I am a warlock) is still rockin' and rollin'.
A bit better than acid splash unless the targets bunch up.

Yeah - because of the bard, I was leaning more towards the Wizard, which is why I figured I'd mention it here.
But you saying play the Wizard wouldn't have anything to do with your dislike of the Kender species would it? :D (We had a discussion a ways back in a thread long buried about it) :D

[KorvinStarmast]

Yeah - because of the bard, I was leaning more towards the Wizard, which is why I figured I'd mention it here. I deliberately made no mention of the kender since I cannot be objective in that case, and did not wish to harsh your groove. :smallwink: Also, with a party that size, it doesn't matter what you play. The action economy will get your group over a lot of rough spots with that many PCs.

[Tawmis]

I deliberately made no mention of the kender since I cannot be objective in that case, and did not wish to harsh your groove. :smallwink: Also, with a party that size, it doesn't matter what you play. The action economy will get your group over a lot of rough spots with that many PCs.

LOL! No groove smashing here! When I play a Kender, I leave it to the DM to what I "acquire" - I am not a "I try to steal that" type Kender.
If the DM slides me a note that says, "Somewhere, someone appears to have dropped a gem that you picked up, to give back, but lost track of who it belonged to" type.
Because I too am not a fan of the kleptomaniac version many players play and say "it's what a kender would do."
Naw, dawg. It's not. :)
But I know folks are not a fan of kender, and that's fine. :)

As for the group size, the DM definitely adjusts accordingly. So when we did Storm King's Thunder, if it says "There's two giants in this room" he'd often bump it to three or four and just use the same stats as one of the other giants, so that we didn't just faerie fire and focus fire. So it would be more spread out and more of a challenge, which I appreciate.

[KorvinStarmast]

As for the group size, the DM definitely adjusts accordingly. So when we did Storm King's Thunder, if it says "There's two giants in this room" he'd often bump it to three or four and just use the same stats as one of the other giants, so that we didn't just faerie fire and focus fire. So it would be more spread out and more of a challenge, which I appreciate. I do something similar in the TftYP Giants campaign. I have trimmed the group to 6 PCs since two more or less stopped showing up, and that made it a lot easier to adjust on the fly.

[NeffariasBredd]

Evocation was banned to white wizards, so probably not either of those.

That is no longer a thing in 5E. You can play whatever subclass you want and still be a White Wizard. You don't even have to be a Wizard anymore either.

[Tawmis]

That is no longer a thing in 5E. You can play whatever subclass you want and still be a White Wizard. You don't even have to be a Wizard anymore either.

Yup - and decided to go Evocation should the character live that long...
It's kind of cool, unintentionally, we have no Cleric or Paladin, which sort of fits with Dragonlance.

Two (?) Knights of Solamnia (who I assume are both going to be human, but not sure)
One Half-Elf Bard (who plans to go Lore)
One Minotaur Fighter (plans to go Battlemaster)
One Drow Elf (sure, not in DL, but whatever) Artificer who plans on going Alchemist.
A (?) Rogue (I am not sure of the race)
Myself, as a Human Wizard (White Robe, Evocation)

So it will be interesting going in with no "dedicated" healer type (Cleric, Druid, Paladin even!)

One of the two Knights may go Paladin, of that I am not sure. But so far Fighters, who are not sure where they plan to go with it.

I am eager as Hades to get this game started.