Should you enforce a Bag of Holding's volume?

[Cheesegear]

My party of players-who-should-know-better keep putting everything "In the Bag."

"It carries 500 lb. we've got heaps left."

However, at the end of last session, after loot was divvied up, something big went into the bag. I already know that there are other big things in the bag.

'The bag can hold up to 500 pounds, not exceeding a volume of 64 cubic feet.' - DMG.

If I know my cube tables, that's only a 4-foot cube.
My party loves this bag.
It has a lot of stuff in it.
It has a lot of pretty big stuff in it.

Q. Do I open next session with the Bag exploding? Do DMs do this? Or should players know better, and the DM absolutely should do this, but it just never happens?

[Keltest]

Depends on the nature of the campaign. Personally Im of the opinion that weight should broadly matter, in the same way that the exploration pillar should see more use than "ignore this more conveniently if you have a ranger." Maybe not to the fiddly numbers, but at least enough to make people consider the merits of investing in multiple bags, or a portable hole.

ETA: Definately do not explode the bag unannounced. If you want to make it a thing, open up next session with an announcement that you want to track the bag's capacity more closely and you wont have the obviously too large item actually have fit in the bag.

And THEN blow it up if they try and fit more in anyway.

[animorte]

Q. Do I open next session with the Bag exploding? Do DMs do this? Or should players know better, and the DM absolutely should do this, but it just never happens?
Depends how easy they can get their hands on another one. If the Artificer (provided there is one) just makes it no problem, absolutely explode that bag and give it some awesome cinematic description.

If they are not likely/unable to encounter/purchase another one any time soon, I think destroying it would be... unkind, to say the least.

Alternatively, I would track each item they have in it on a basic table and every hour or less (basically whenever you feel like it) roll on your little table and one of the items pops out of the bag at random. This will happen several times over the course of the day until they eventually figure out why, maybe? Perhaps they try to add something else and it immediately launches back out 10-20 feet in a random direction. One creative individual then has the idea to attempt using this as a projectile during a fight. Grow accustomed to the timing, shove something in the bag and 3 rounds later aim the bag at a bad guy, smacking him in the face with that cello/saddle/bundle of firewood.

[Rockphed]

Definately do not explode the bag unannounced. If you want to make it a thing, open up next session with an announcement that you want to track the bag's capacity more closely and you wont have the obviously too large item actually have fit in the bag.

And THEN blow it up if they try and fit more in anyway.

This is my take as well: don't suddenly break the bag without warning. Extra dimensional storage is for things like "I push the 200 lb chest into the bag of holding and continue on my merry way", not "I loot everything in the dungeon that isn't nailed down". Okay, really nice extra dimensional storage is for the latter, but it should come at a point when the quest was "I want new statues to guard my castle gate. I hear a pit fiend has some lovely statues. Go fetch them for me."

[Cheesegear]

Maybe not to the fiddly numbers

Well every time they try and put something big in the bag, I make sure to ask them how big it is, and if it's bigger than [2x2x4], it can't fit in the Bag at all, regardless of how much it weighs.

But as I said, there's a number of pretty big items in there at this point, heads of big monsters and some sizeable gems.
The end of last session had them put another 2-foot spheroid item in the Bag...And just in my head I think "That's too much."
I looked at the groups Spreadsheet of what's in the Bag. ...Sure enough...

And I know that both the weight limit and volume limit is written on the Index Card I made for them.


If you want to make it a thing, open up next session with an announcement that you want to track the bag's capacity more closely

I've been telling them to track what's in the Bag this whole time. ...More for me, not for them. Because when I give out random loot and weird art objects I often forget what my players even have. I've found that a very good way to do this is having a shared Spreadsheet.

Google Spreadsheets is easy enough to share on people's phones, and inventories aren't intrusive enough to take away peoples' attention like an entire character sheet, is.

[Keltest]

Well every time they try and put something big in the bag, I make sure to ask them how big it is, and if it's bigger than [2x2x4], it can't fit in the Bag at all, regardless of how much it weighs.

But as I said, there's a number of pretty big items in there at this point, heads of big monsters and some sizeable gems.
The end of last session had them put another 2-foot spheroid item in the Bag...And just in my head I think "That's too much."
I looked at the groups Spreadsheet of what's in the Bag. ...Sure enough...

And I know that both the weight limit and volume limit is written on the Index Card I made for them.



I've been telling them to track what's in the Bag this whole time. ...More for me, not for them. Because when I give out random loot and weird art objects I often forget what my players even have. I've found that a very good way to do this is having a shared Spreadsheet.

Google Spreadsheets is easy enough to share on people's phones, and inventories aren't intrusive enough to take away peoples' attention like an entire character sheet, is.

Youre the DM. Give them a warning. Make sure they understand it. Then follow through. Explode the crap out of that bag if they stuff more stuff in it, as long as they accept the terms and conditions.

If they aggressively oppose using limits on the bag and tracking that stuff, its probably not worth the fight, but if they go into it claiming good faith, then youre well within your rights to call them on it when they overfill it.

[JNAProductions]

Tell them that the next item they put in doesn’t fit.
Make clear that trying to stretch it will break the bag.
Don’t punish them just for trying to carry stuff.

[Doug Lampert]

Gems are denser than water. Monster heads are about as dense as water.

Most things are at least vaguely comparable to water in density.

64 cubic feet of water is 3,830 and a tiny fraction pounds.

The bag only holds 500 pounds. A single object that is too long or too wide may be a problem, but simple volume is unlikely to be a problem.

[Cheesegear]

Don’t punish them just for trying to carry stuff.

If they were just trying to carry things, it wouldn't be a problem.
The problem is hoarding, and being unable - or unwilling - to accept that you can carry anything, but not everything. And treating the Bag as a *ahem* magical pickup-anything-you-want-free card. And that's just not what it is.


Gems are denser than water.
[...]
The bag only holds 500 pounds. A single object that is too long or too wide may be a problem, but simple volume is unlikely to be a problem.

Uhh...Volume is specifically the problem. Bags of Holding don't just have limitations on weight, they have limitations on size (i.e; Volume) as well.
Density is a non-issue, for the most part.

You could have four eight, 2-foot square boxes of nothing inside the Bag. Those empty boxes could weigh no more than 20 lb., total. But the Bag is now full. Despite having 480 lb. of weight left.

[Rockphed]

You could have four, 2-foot square boxes of nothing inside the Bag. Those empty boxes could weigh no more than 20 lb., total. But the Bag is now full. Despite having 480 lb. of weight left.

Eight. 8 cubes with 2-foot sides, not 4. The op specified that the bag has a 64 cubic foot size and a 500 pound weight limit.

[Cheesegear]

Eight. 8 cubes with 2-foot sides, not 4. The op specified that the bag has a 64 cubic foot size and a 500 pound weight limit.

Funny. I originally had the post as four, 2x4x2 chests. When I changed it to 2-foot boxes for simplification, I didn't change the number. :smallsigh:

[Pex]

It's fine to enforce it, but if you haven't been so far it is grossly unfair to suddenly punish them for it. It's not a question of fault but realization verisimilitude has been broken. Tell the party you want to enforce it more and give them a chance to fix it. Divvy up what's in there. Let them sell what they wanted to sell. Let them choose what they can do without and leave behind. Let them empty it, do with the stuff as they will, then put back properly what to keep in there. From then on they need to keep track.

It's no different than being loose with encumbrance but drawing the line at overused bulk a 20 ST PC cannot carry five full plate armors.

[Cheesegear]

It's fine to enforce it, but if you haven't been so far it is grossly unfair to suddenly punish them for it.

The problem isn't that I haven't been enforcing it. The problem is that it hasn't come up. And, what's more, the volume limit is written on the Index Card, it is there, and they've had that Bag for about eight months now.


From then on they need to keep track.

As I've said, they are keeping track...Of weight. Like bookkeeping isn't news. And I've been mentioning size limits frequently when they try and put 5-foot poles into the Bag. They know about size limits. I promise you they do.

The problem, is that I'm pretty sure they've broken the Bag without even realising it.
But the rules don't say; "If you overload the Bag, you can't put any more in the Bag."
The rules do say; "The Bag has limits. If you overload the Bag, you break the Bag, and you effectively lose everything inside, too."


It's no different than being loose with encumbrance but drawing the line at overused bulk a 20 ST PC cannot carry five full plate armors.

If the rules said; "If a character maxes out their encumbrance, they break their legs.", you'd bet there'd be PCs at my table with broken legs.

[JNAProductions]

Is your job to enforce the rules? Or is your job to make sure everyone at the table has fun?

Because the rules also don't say "The bag gives no indications of when it might overload, instead immediately breaking and banishing everything." You are well within your rights to have in-game indications, and out-of-game ones too if need be, that the bag is close to its limit and putting more in will lose everything.

[animorte]

You are well within your rights to have in-game indications, and out-of-game ones too if need be, that the bag is close to its limit and putting more in will lose everything.
I have an example of how to do this up thread. I believe it was overlooked. Things just pop back out of the bag and won't stay in anymore. Even made it fun.

[Cheesegear]

Is your job to enforce the rules? Or is your job to make sure everyone at the table has fun?

That depends. How fun would it be to have the Bag explode? I'll never know unless I do it. Does it make the party go on an adventure in the Astral Plane to get their stuff back and suddenly we're in space fighting space monsters and Githyanki riding Red Dragons? ...Or will the party, I dunno, just cry and tell me I'm a bad DM because I did what the rules said I should do?

What is fun?

[JNAProductions]

That depends. How fun would it be to have the Bag explode? I'll never know unless I do it. Does it make the party go on an adventure in the Astral Plane to get their stuff back and suddenly we're in space fighting space monsters and Githyanki riding Red Dragons? ...Or will the party, I dunno, just cry and tell me I'm a bad DM because I did what the rules said I should do?

What is fun?

We can't answer that for you. But you should know your table reasonably well.

I don't think you should abandon the rules-but I don't think you should enforce them like a robot either. Give warning-and don't be subtle about it. Be very clear what will happen if they try to stuff too much in there, so it's their decision if it breaks.

[bayjorntreeroot]

That depends. How fun would it be to have the Bag explode? I'll never know unless I do it. Does it make the party go on an adventure in the Astral Plane to get their stuff back and suddenly we're in space fighting space monsters and Githyanki riding Red Dragons? ...Or will the party, I dunno, just cry and tell me I'm a bad DM because I did what the rules said I should do?

What is fun?

Reading this thread indicates that you are not asking these questions in good faith. You give every indication that you want to punish your players. Unanimously the users on this board are telling you that this is not going to be a fun outcome for your players.

Communication is key to being a good dm. Talk to them, tell them, AND give an in-game indication of what may happen if they continue.

[Doug Lampert]

If they were just trying to carry things, it wouldn't be a problem.
The problem is hoarding, and being unable - or unwilling - to accept that you can carry anything, but not everything. And treating the Bag as a *ahem* magical pickup-anything-you-want-free card. And that's just not what it is.



Uhh...Volume is specifically the problem. Bags of Holding don't just have limitations on weight, they have limitations on size (i.e; Volume) as well.
Density is a non-issue, for the most part.

You could have four eight, 2-foot square boxes of nothing inside the Bag. Those empty boxes could weigh no more than 20 lb., total. But the Bag is now full. Despite having 480 lb. of weight left.

You said what sort of stuff is in there, and it's ALL dense stuff, no empty boxes mentioned. 500 pounds will be nowhere near the volume limit.

[Sigreid]

It would definitely be fair to enforce it...and I definitely don't.

[Cheesegear]

Unanimously the users on this board are telling you that this is not going to be a fun outcome for your players.

That's not what they're saying.
They're saying 'Give them a warning, then break it.'

And I feel, to be fair, I have given them plenty of warnings already. Including an Index card that says that a Bag of Holding is only roughly a 4-foot cube. It's not an extradimensional void...Well, it is. But it's not an infinite void.

As per the OP;
I know that it sucks to explode the Bag. But it is the rule. How many times has this come up? I don't feel like it's that many times. Because I feel like players should have read the magic item, and they know, that when they hit ~450 lb or a few big items, they sort of check themselves. I feel as though my players have not checked themselves, and there are consequences to not checking yourself, in the rulebook.

So, to reiterate what I've learned:
1. Do I open next session with the Bag exploding?
2. Do DMs do this?
3. Or should players know better, and the DM absolutely should do this, but it just never happens?

A.
1. Maybe. Maybe I give them a hint that something is wrong with the bag, and if they don't fix it within...10 minutes (real time), then I explode the Bag and they lose anything that's in it.
2. DMs on this forum, don't. At least, not without significant hand wringing.
3. The players should know better, because the DM gives them warnings, and the DM should absolutely explode the Bag if they keep pushing its limits and taking it for granted. That is RAW.

[OracleofWuffing]

Quest hook that something bad is happening to the physics of the world. After investigating it, party finds out it is caused by evil-sidequest villain mucking about with overloading extra dimensional spaces with volume. Party saves the day, but make it clear that if they continue playing loose with the bag's volume, they're going to bring back all the problems they just undid. Maybe the get a second bag in the quest, just to make it easy for them to do the right thing.

Then, if they still keep doing it, have all sorts of crazy thing happen. Oh, you wanted your spare spell book? You just pulled out a handful of bees instead.

[Mastikator]

That depends. How fun would it be to have the Bag explode? I'll never know unless I do it. Does it make the party go on an adventure in the Astral Plane to get their stuff back and suddenly we're in space fighting space monsters and Githyanki riding Red Dragons? ...Or will the party, I dunno, just cry and tell me I'm a bad DM because I did what the rules said I should do?

What is fun?

Just warn them ahead of time that their actions will have dire irrevocable consequences, so that when they do the stupid thing, the bad outcome is their fault for being stupid, and not yours for being sadistic or "out to get them". In particular warn ahead of time, and then warn right before.

[JellyPooga]

The volume of the bag should definitely be enforced, as should the "don't put pointy things in there" rule, just as much as the weight capacity. A Bag of Holding is an invaluable tool, not an infallible one.

That said, I agree that "rule of fun" trumps "rule as written" and it would be in bad faith to spring any detriment on the players without warning. Does that mean just giving them total freedom to do as they please with the contents? No. Does it mean having a conversation about wanting to be more rigorous with regard to carry caps and BoH capacity? Absolutely. If they proceed as before once you've had that conversation or do nothing to rectify the situation, then punitive measures or restrictions can and should apply.

[Satinavian]

Honestly, if the bag was full, it would have been better to just fail to put more stuff in there instead of having it explode.

[Veldrenor]

Q. Do I open next session with the Bag exploding?

Depends. How do bags of holding work in your in-game fiction?

1) Do bags of holding work like a cartoon? You can keep putting stuff into the bag no problem, there's never any physical signs that it's getting full, until the moment you put in that last feather and the whole thing bursts. If bags of holding work that way in-game, then absolutely start the session with an exploding bag of holding. Neither the players nor the characters would have any way of telling they were close to the limit except a carefully-maintained ledger, and if they got their numbers wrong that's on them.

2) Do bags of holding function like a real bag? As you keep putting stuff into the bag it gets harder and harder to put in more stuff. As it fills and you have to start forcing stuff in, crushing stuff that's already inside, the bag begins to strain and tear until it finally gives way. If bags of holding work that way in-game, then you need to tell your players unambiguously "the bag will tear if you put anything more in it" and shouldn't just blow up the bag. The characters in-world would be seeing all these signs that they're overloading the bag and should stop. But the players aren't in-world. They're looking at numbers in a spreadsheet. They know how heavy stuff is and the bag's weight limit, those are clearly written. But unless you're providing a volume listing for every item in addition to a weight listing, the players are operating on their best guess instead of on actual knowledge. They can't tell for sure that they're getting close, so you have to tell them that.




Or should players know better, and the DM absolutely should do this, but it just never happens? Should players know better? No; unless they're being provided weight and volume then they're operating with incomplete information and can't know better. Should the DM blow up an overloaded bag of holding? Depends on the specific social contract by which the table is playing. If the DM is carefully tracking encumbrance and clearly telling the players when they're getting close to the line and what will happen if they keep going, then yes they absolutely should blow up the bag when the players ignore the warning. If the DM uses the bag of holding as "I won't make you track encumbrance as long as I don't have to make up the weight of random junk and you don't start prying the doors off the dungeon to sell in town," then they probably shouldn't blow it up.

[Keltest]

Honestly, if the bag was full, it would have been better to just fail to put more stuff in there instead of having it explode.

Actually, this point needs a little bit of clarification. When you say "explode" do you mean "ruptures and loses all its contents into the astral plane" like it says in the text, or "literally spews everything inside everywhere as if they had turned it inside out"?

[Chronos]

Just what kind of item is this, that would exceed the volume limit but not the weight limit?

But yeah, don't explode it without warning. Just say at the start of the session, "Hey, it looks like that big thing you got last session won't fit in. It's still outside the bag.".

[Pex]

The problem isn't that I haven't been enforcing it. The problem is that it hasn't come up. And, what's more, the volume limit is written on the Index Card, it is there, and they've had that Bag for about eight months now.



As I've said, they are keeping track...Of weight. Like bookkeeping isn't news. And I've been mentioning size limits frequently when they try and put 5-foot poles into the Bag. They know about size limits. I promise you they do.

The problem, is that I'm pretty sure they've broken the Bag without even realising it.
But the rules don't say; "If you overload the Bag, you can't put any more in the Bag."
The rules do say; "The Bag has limits. If you overload the Bag, you break the Bag, and you effectively lose everything inside, too."



If the rules said; "If a character maxes out their encumbrance, they break their legs.", you'd bet there'd be PCs at my table with broken legs.

If it hasn't come up then you haven't been enforcing it.

The players may not realize there's a problem but their characters do. They're right there looking at it. The characters would know the Bag is full and can't hold anymore. It became routine for the players to just say put it in the Bag Of Holding and not think about it.

My advice still stands. Let the players fix it, and then everyone be more meticulous.

You asked for opinions. That's mine. If you already decided you want to blow up the Bag anyway then the thread is done.

[johnbragg]

The problem, is that I'm pretty sure they've broken the Bag without even realising it.
But the rules don't say; "If you overload the Bag, you can't put any more in the Bag."
The rules do say; "The Bag has limits. If you overload the Bag, you break the Bag, and you effectively lose everything inside, too."

Well, since that HASNT happened, that doesn't seem to be the rule at your table. Or your PCs have a unique, nonstandard Bag of Holding.

You have options as a DM, if you want to use a little bit of creativity.
MAybe the PC's with Arcana proficiency can hear a groaning coming from the Bag that the mundanes can't hear.

Seriously, if your players have been tracking weight but not volume (total volume, not volume-by-item), and the Bag explodes because the volume is overloaded and their stuff is gone, the players aren't going to be happy. They played the game by the rules as they perceived them, you reinforced that perception by action or inaction, and now you're effectively changing the rules.

EDIT: My advice is to just retcon the last session. Remind the player with the highest Arcana score that Bags of Holding have weight limits, and volume limits. A type II bag of holding has a 70 cu ft limit, there are already 3 2x2x4 treasure chests full of shadowsilk or dragon heads or whatever in the bag, plus the rest of the assorted goodies, another 2x2x4 skull might not fit.

[johnbragg]

That's not what they're saying.
They're saying 'Give them a warning, then break it.'


So, to reiterate what I've learned:
1. Do I open next session with the Bag exploding?

A.
1. Maybe. Maybe I give them a hint that something is wrong with the bag, and if they don't fix it within...10 minutes (real time), then I explode the Bag and they lose anything that's in it.


That's fair, actually.

[Unoriginal]

Advice number 1: reminds your players before the session that a Bag of Holding has a volume limit as well as a weight limit, and that going further than either limit breaks the bag.

The *characters* would have been aware of it all along and wouldn't have overloaded the Bag, it's just that out-of-universe, you did, so now they have the exceeding amount of stuff to carry around.


Advice number 2: You could have the PCs meet with a special messenger who has an important letter for them.

This messenger is member of a group renowned for safe message delivery thanks to using extra-dimensional storage spaces and flying magic items to go wherever they need to go. The problem is, the storage this messenger has is a Portable Hole, and that is just not practical or professional-looking for delivering letters, since you have essentially to unfold the Hole in front of your customers and rummage through it.

Then the messenger can offer to trade the Portable Hole for the Bag of Holding. The Portable Hole can carry bigger objects as the opening is bigger than the Bag, it has no weight limit, and it can hold 8006 liters without issue, all things that make it more practical for the PCs than for someone delivering messages.

[Witty Username]

What is in the bag, at the moment?

[False God]

I do. The mouth of the bad is only so large, and the space inside is much smaller than most people realize.

If I haven't been tracking it too well, I'll usually start off with some warnings like "You reach into the bag, and it feels very crowded in there." and scale it up as the session goes along, "As soon as you open your bag, it kinda burps out a couple small items you had in there." Maybe give some optional checks for players to investigate what is going on with their bag if they don't immediately figure it out. If they keep pushing it well, KA-BOOM!

[KorvinStarmast]

My party of players-who-should-know-better keep putting everything "In the Bag."

"It carries 500 lb. we've got heaps left."

However, at the end of last session, after loot was divvied up, something big went into the bag. I already know that there are other big things in the bag.

'The bag can hold up to 500 pounds, not exceeding a volume of 64 cubic feet.' - DMG.

If I know my cube tables, that's only a 4-foot cube. Uh, are you sure about what you know? It is not described as a 4'cube, it is a volume of 64 cubic feet.

It could be 16' x 2' x 2'. The more pressing limit is the size of the opening of the bag. It could be 8' x 2' x 4'. (Or a wide variety of other combinations). It could be a sphere or an oblate spheroid with a volume of 64 cubic feet and a two foot opening. Etc.

Q. Do I open next session with the Bag exploding? Do DMs do this? Or should players know better, and the DM absolutely should do this, but it just never happens? I have delegated to the players the requirement to keep track of the weight in the bag. I occasionally ask them to tell me how full it is.
If the item won't fit, I'll let them know as they try to stuff something in. If they keep trying after that warning? Bag breaks and the stuff is all over the place, and some of it ends up missing.

In the past 8 years, only 1 BoH has exploded when I DM. And that was due to 'it's getting full' assessment being ignored and the players being careless.

What is inside the bag is an extradimensional space. It does not have to be only 4 x 4 x 4.

I do. The mouth of the bad is only so large, and the space inside is much smaller than most people realize. 64 cubic feet can also be 64 x 1 x 1. It is an extradimensional space, so it need not be a fixed quantity.

[sithlordnergal]

Personally, I wouldn't bother worrying about the volume. As long as they're not trying to shove Large or larger objects in there, it should be fine. Mostly because few people want to fiddle around with numbers. Like...how much is is the volume of a single gold piece? set of standard armor? Will trying to figure out those numbers and actually adhering to them make the game fun or cumbersome?

Now, if they're trying to fit a Smaug sized treasure hoard into the bag, remind them the limits of it. But honestly, most things are going to have a higher weight than volume. Like...one cubic foot of gold weighs 1206 pounds. You'd need three bags of holding just to carry it. So honestly...you should really only worry about it if they're trying to carry multiple pounds of feathers, balloons, or whatever.

[Sigreid]

If you trick them into putting a portable hole into it, there's no longer a problem!

[Wintermoot]

My party of players-who-should-know-better keep putting everything "In the Bag."

"It carries 500 lb. we've got heaps left."

However, at the end of last session, after loot was divvied up, something big went into the bag. I already know that there are other big things in the bag.

'The bag can hold up to 500 pounds, not exceeding a volume of 64 cubic feet.' - DMG.

If I know my cube tables, that's only a 4-foot cube.
My party loves this bag.
It has a lot of stuff in it.
It has a lot of pretty big stuff in it.

Q. Do I open next session with the Bag exploding? Do DMs do this? Or should players know better, and the DM absolutely should do this, but it just never happens?

If anything you -should- have handled it when they tried to put the large object in by saying "it doesn't go in. The volume of the bag has been reached". Then explain that the bag represents a 4' x 4' x 4' cube and here's what they have in there and why the new object wont' fit.

Handling it by "exploding the bag" is a pointless bit of gotchya gamemanship that no one has enjoyed since 1st edition.

However, you -could- handle it by thinking to yourself "i guess this group of players isn't big into the logistics of carrying large volumes and just want an option to do so that doesn't bog down the game and lets them get onto the parts of the game they enjoy" and facilitate that. Seems like they are still well within reason.

If it really really grates on you, then sit down OUT OF CHARACTER and explain your expectations around the bag and what you expect from them for keeping track of how they are using it, then once everyone understands, you can move forward with the net new system.

However I agree with the plethora of posters above me that you seem to have already CHOSEN the route you want to take and "surprise gotchya!" punish the players for something that only you care about. You certainly are mentally ignoring all the posts telling you "don't do that" and only counting the posts that vaguely agree with you. So, If that's so, then you've already decided what kind of DM you are. Good luck.

[False God]

64 cubic feet can also be 64 x 1 x 1. It is an extradimensional space, so it need not be a fixed quantity.

Uh, well you mean it need not be a fixed 4x4x4 right? Because it is a fixed volume of space.

In any case, I tend to assume that as a magical, extra-dimensional space, it's more of a bubble. So it's exact interior shape is flexible to the party's needs. But the more you attempt to deform it from it's desired shape (a rough bubble) the more likely it is to break. Which is how I understood it to be treated from some of the notes about being able to "puncture" it.

I would personally think you could get a lot of mileage in a game from selling Bags of Holding that have unique interior dimensions for specific needs. 1x1x64 would be great if you need to, ya know, hide a telephone pole, or want to ensure that whatever you drop down can't just hop right out the top.

[Cheesegear]

If anything you -should- have handled it when they tried to put the large object in by saying "it doesn't go in. The volume of the bag has been reached".

But that isn't what happens.
It doesn't say 'The Bag reaches capacity and can't be filled anymore.'
It does say 'If the Bag overflows it ruptures.'

It does go in. Then, the Bag explodes.


However I agree with the plethora of posters above me that you seem to have already CHOSEN the route you want to take and "surprise gotchya!" punish the players for something that only you care about.

Wrong. The route I chose was to warn them that something was wrong with the Bag and set a timer on my phone for 10 minutes.

Around the seven-minute mark is when they had the bright idea of taking things out.


1x1x64 would be great if you need to, ya know, hide a telephone pole, or want to ensure that whatever you drop down can't just hop right out the top.

Unfortunately, if the object is larger than 2x2x4 (L/W/H), it can't go in the Bag in the first place. I like where your head's at, but it doesn't work that way. :smallconfused:

[animorte]

I can tell you're quite the rules lawyer. You seem to be very confident in what you intend to express, just a matter of getting there effectively. Firm but fair. Respectable.

[KorvinStarmast]

Uh, well you mean it need not be a fixed 4x4x4 right? Correct. I also mentioned spheres and oblate spheres in this discussion.

In any case, I tend to assume that as a magical, extra-dimensional space, it's more of a bubble. So it's exact interior shape is flexible to the party's needs. Yes, that's what we do.


But that isn't what happens.
It doesn't say 'The Bag reaches capacity and can't be filled anymore.'
It does say 'If the Bag overflows it ruptures.'

It does go in. Then, the Bag explodes. Yes.

Unfortunately, if the object is larger than 2x2x4 (L/W/H), it can't go in the Bag in the first place. I like where your head's at, but it doesn't work that way. :smallconfused: This is wrong, specifically when you read those rules as they are written. All an item needs to do is be able to fit through the 2' opening.
The 64 cubic feet is NOT limited to 4 x 4 x 4 dimensions. It can be any shape or form that allows for 64 cubic feet of volume, which is all that the RAW description describes.

The only thing that makes it not Wrong is if you, as DM, have clearly told your players
"In my world, 64 cubic feet means 4' x 4' x 4'"
because that's certainly your choice as DM to rule.
(Heck and it may have been a matter of that standard production at Majic Bags, Ltd., in the Feywild industrial district, whose owner Henry Fayrd was very strict on making one item and making it well. And they all came in one color ...)

[deljzc]

The volume vs. weight thing is just one of the many "descriptions" used in the handbooks that doesn't make all that much sense.

The best way to figure volume of an object is to place it in a large container of water and measure the difference in water levels. A sword weighing 8 lbs. would likely have a volume displacement of only about 20-30 CUBIC INCHES.

64 Cubic Feet is 110,000 Cubic Inches.

So unless you restrict size of an object into a bag of holding (i.e. a 100' pole, a piece of fence, etc.), weight will almost always be the restrictive factor.

Now you could argue what is the volume of a balloon filled with air? Is it just the balloon or do "containers" include the air volumes inside them? Again, the rule book doesn't really help. All DM interpretation. I mean you you keep the container "open" then volume of the container should only be what volume of air/water/etc. it displaces when put into the bag of holding.

Things made of light materials (balsa wood or pillows) might have different densities to throw off the math as well.

In general, D&D does a very poor job of understanding volume and weights of materials. For example in order for all coins to weigh the same, the copper piece is the size of a U.S. dollar coin, silver piece the size of a U.S. quarter and the gold piece is the size of a U.S. penny. Even diluting their alloy mixtures can't eliminate some fairly large discrepancies in density of metals.

That's why ANYTHING written with either/or (volume or weight) is going to cause problems for a DM.

You just have to decide what makes sense in your campaign and try to stick with it. Or just chalk it up to "magic".

[Pex]

If anything you -should- have handled it when they tried to put the large object in by saying "it doesn't go in. The volume of the bag has been reached". Then explain that the bag represents a 4' x 4' x 4' cube and here's what they have in there and why the new object wont' fit.

Handling it by "exploding the bag" is a pointless bit of gotchya gamemanship that no one has enjoyed since 1st edition.

However, you -could- handle it by thinking to yourself "i guess this group of players isn't big into the logistics of carrying large volumes and just want an option to do so that doesn't bog down the game and lets them get onto the parts of the game they enjoy" and facilitate that. Seems like they are still well within reason.

If it really really grates on you, then sit down OUT OF CHARACTER and explain your expectations around the bag and what you expect from them for keeping track of how they are using it, then once everyone understands, you can move forward with the net new system.

However I agree with the plethora of posters above me that you seem to have already CHOSEN the route you want to take and "surprise gotchya!" punish the players for something that only you care about. You certainly are mentally ignoring all the posts telling you "don't do that" and only counting the posts that vaguely agree with you. So, If that's so, then you've already decided what kind of DM you are. Good luck.

I'm getting that impression as well. He's already decided to blow up the bag and have the players lose their stuff. He wants Forum approval to do so as justification when they complain.

[johnbragg]

But that isn't what happens.
Wrong. The route I chose was to warn them that something was wrong with the Bag and set a timer on my phone for 10 minutes.

Around the seven-minute mark is when they had the bright idea of taking things out.

Good. You gave your players a problem, they solved it.

[Doug Lampert]

I'm getting that impression as well. He's already decided to blow up the bag and have the players lose their stuff. He wants Forum approval to do so as justification when they complain.

And baring putting hypothetical empty chests or a bunch of extruded styrophome in there, I'm still unclear on how they can even be close on volumn without being well over on weight.

The weight limit is vastly more limiting than the volume limit with most reasonable materials.

[sithlordnergal]

And baring putting hypothetical empty chests or a bunch of extruded styrophome in there, I'm still unclear on how they can even be close on volumn without being well over on weight.

The weight limit is vastly more limiting than the volume limit with most reasonable materials.

They filled their bag of holding with multiple kilograms of feathers =p

[Cheesegear]

All an item needs to do is be able to fit through the 2' opening.

I...Err...

I have been DMing for years under the assumption that the "4 foot deep" applied to the items put inside it, and not simply what the Bag looked like on the outside.

It's really helped sell 'A Bag of Holding can carry...A lot. But it can't carry anything, and it definitely can't carry everything.'

'Member that time three years ago I said you couldn't stack six-foot spears inside a Bag of Holding? Turns out I was wrong.

[KorvinStarmast]

... and it definitely can't carry everything.' Indeed. What's inside is a magical space. It could be 4' deep, 2' wide, and 8' long, which means that you can slide those spears in just fine.
A big round shield?
Probably not, as it won't fit into the mouth.
(Aside: at one of our tables we decided that no matter how hard we tried, we'd not be able to fit a saddle into a bag of holding since we could not fit it into the mouth. Maybe we should have tried to fold it or something ...).

I think that it is worth your while to establish, with your players, what the dimensions of a bag of holding is so that you all have a shared understanding.
White room theorizing and arguments on the internet are not useful to your table's health.
If you, the DM, would prefer that it be 4' x 4' x 4' then make it so and get your players on board.
(See also my suggestion above on how the standards and quality control department of Henry Fayrd's bag works produced one standardized size of bag in the Feywild before they went into bankruptcy...and now one has to find one of the one's made there by adventuring since they are no longer manufactured ... Call it Fayrd's Model B or Model H?... if you want a lore tidbit that may amuse them)

[Lord Vukodlak]

I'm going to say this.... no you shouldn't because its to complicated. Retrieving an item only takes an action regardless of how many items are in the bag so the space within must be malleable in-order to bring the desired object to your hand. It is highly unlikely you'd hit the volume limit before the weight limit, maybe loading empty barrels or feathers you'd hit the weight limit first. But unless you go out of your way to hit the volume limit first it won't happen.

So you should only worry about weight, and if it fits through the opening.

[Cheesegear]

It is highly unlikely you'd hit the volume limit before the weight limit

But they did.


But unless you go out of your way to hit the volume limit first it won't happen.

But they did.


So you should only worry about weight, and if it fits through the opening.

So why did the designers include a volume limit?
To be pedantic a*holes?
Or was it to put a limit on a pretty powerful item to stop abuse?


Retrieving an item only takes an action regardless of how many items are in the bag...

Unrelated. But I just realised that storing thousands of loose coins in a Bag is an awful idea.

[Lord Vukodlak]

So why did the designers include a volume limit?
To be pedantic a*holes?
Because they didn't consider that aside from putting in empty boxes 64 cubic feet of any material is going to be heavier then 500lbs. They wanted to cover potential exploits that it turns out don't exist... like filling it with helium balloons.

Now please explain, what could they possibly be putting in that bag that exceeds 64 cubic feet but not 500lbs that's actually disrupting the game. You say they reached the volume limit? I don't believe your correct..

[Mastikator]

For reference 8 cubic feet of water is 500lbs (very roughly). It would have to be filled with something that has 12% of the average density of water to fill the volume before exhausting the mass capacity.

[KorvinStarmast]

So why did the designers include a volume limit?
To be pedantic a*holes?
Or was it to put a limit on a pretty powerful item to stop abuse?
Yes. But it's also to give DM's some room to work, to provide flexibility in application.
This isn't a reality simulator.
This isn't computer code.

The DM has wide discretion in ruling on details. So make a ruling, make sure the players are aware of it, and play on.

Don't tie yourself in knots over analyzing this. It's not worth it.

[Kane0]

I'd only bother to check once the contents of the bag starts getting out of hand, if its just to conveniently carry the usual adventuring supplies then i wouldnt bother.

If the bag was getting stuffed too full i'd have things get randomly lost or spat out, and if forced 'pop' and throw its entire contents everywhere.

[Sigreid]

I think a relative question is what do you gain by worrying about it? What is the party doing that actually bothers you? Are they using it to have more supplies and an answer to every problem with them? Are they using it to loot more than you want them to? In other words, what problem for your game are you trying to fix by spending time and brain power on the bag?

[Samayu]

In my group, we would ignore the limits for a while, until the GM would finally say, "so what-all do you have in there anyway? ... Oh, yeah, you're over the limit so you're going to have to get rid of some of that stuff. The bag should have blown up a long time ago." And then give us a session or two to trim the contents down to something reasonable. If I were running the game, I would have warned them from the start not to put too much in it, but still wouldn't have been extremely strict.