two crafting questions

[Zhepna]

Hi,

I dm and one of my player is an artificier

1) he has custom item with +x to skills to he use the ruling in tome of blood In the table 4-3 page 74: skill bonus base price Bonus sqarred x 20 gp

instead of the normal Skill bonus (competence) Bonus squared × 100 gp that I'm used to use, is it legal or is there an errata? He roll between 50 to 70 to almost all skills.

2) He reduce the price of all items he creat for the party without any feat by saying to he creat the item for a specific class so it's only this class that can use it. Let's say he create a magic necklace that continuously cast Cure Light Wounds for the paladin, only him will be able to use it. He refers to the line:

Item Requires Specific Class or Alignment to Use
Even more restrictive than requiring a skill, this limitation cuts the cost by 30%.

on this page
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm

Thanks for the information and have a nice day.

[thethird]

Hi,

I dm and one of my player is an artificier

1) he has custom item with +x to skills to he use the ruling in tome of blood In the table 4-3 page 74: skill bonus base price Bonus sqarred x 20 gp

I love artificers and like cheesing things with them. That said that's something I would keep myself away from. Note that tome of blood is 3.0 and as such it might need to be reviewed and updated to use in 3.5 As the DM it's pretty normal to expect that you are the one to have the final say on that review. So shoot it down. Say that the Dungeon master guide 3.5 guidelines take precedence over the tome of blode 3.0 guidelines.

instead of the normal Skill bonus (competence) Bonus squared × 100 gp that I'm used to use, is it legal or is there an errata? He roll between 50 to 70 to almost all skills.


2) He reduce the price of all items he creat for the party without any feat by saying to he creat the item for a specific class so it's only this class that can use it. Let's say he create a magic necklace that continuously cast Cure Light Wounds for the paladin, only him will be able to use it. He refers to the line:

Item Requires Specific Class or Alignment to Use
Even more restrictive than requiring a skill, this limitation cuts the cost by 30%.

on this page
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm

Thanks for the information and have a nice day.

Note that the custom item cost guidelines are more for dms than for players so the player should run things by you and get approval. I personally don't like the whole limiting things to classes and stuff but yeah, that's there. And to be entirely fair since there are several other ways of bringing the cost down.

Question though, how is he getting all the downtime necessary to craft all the necessary stuff?

Is this disruptive of your game or is he playing in a manner that enables other players to be stronger and more useful?

[Zhepna]

He help the group but it's really on the broken side. They are lvl 4 and he made an item for each player that give them back 1d8+2 life per turn. So now I'll have to also one-kill then or drag combat forever. And it's just the first crafter item....

[JNAProductions]

He help the group but it's really on the broken side. They are lvl 4 and he made an item for each player that give them back 1d8+2 life per turn. So now I'll have to also one-kill then or drag combat forever. And it's just the first crafter item....

If he's being disruptive, have a chat with him. Let him know that his optimization skills, while cool, are causing a problem for you as a DM, and find a compromise that'll let gameplay continue without forcing you to extreme measures.

The biggest advice I can give is to solve this out-of-character. Don't try to force an in-game solution without an out-of-game discussion first.

[thethird]

He help the group but it's really on the broken side. They are lvl 4 and he made an item for each player that give them back 1d8+2 life per turn. So now I'll have to also one-kill then or drag combat forever. And it's just the first crafter item....

That sounds like something based on cure light wounds, how is that not taking actions on the party's part?

Seconding the talk to him out of character.

[Vaern]

The 3.0 DMG lists the cost for skill bonuses at bonus2 x 20. Tome of Blood, as a 3.0 supplement book, is simply being consistent with core rules for its edition. In a 3.5 campaign, the revised item creation guideline of bonus2 x 100 replaces the older and less expensive iteration.
I don't know how large the bonus on his custom items are, but judging by how high his rolls are I think it would be relevant to remind you that epic rules state that anything granting a bonus greater than +30 is epic and has its cost multiplied by 10 outright.


As for discounts for restrictive items...

Firstly, in most cases of published items having such restrictions, it makes some kind of thematic sense for an item to only function for a specific kind of character. If he can make an item for all members of the party that is functionally identical except for the class restriction, then it's safe to say that the class restriction does not make sense thematically.

Secondly, I suspect that those guidelines are more for creating general magic items to add to your loot table than for players creating custom items.
If you, as the DM, were to create an item that only functions for a paladin, add it to your loot table, and randomly distribute it to a party, it might have a lower value because there's no guarantee that it can even be used. The random shopkeeper they pawn it off on is going to pay less because of the small number of customers he's going to be able to try selling the item to.
If you, as a player, were to create an item that only functions for your party's paladin, it is not going to be any less valuable to you because you already know it's going to be used specifically by the person it's being tailor-made for. If anything, such a made-to-order item might even be worth more to the customer that commissioned it as essentially comes with a built-in security feature. The paladin's gear isn't going to function for anyone else, so the rogue has no incentive to swipe the paladin's loot in his sleep.


As for the healing items...

1d8+2 sounds like CLW at CL2. CLW is instantaneous and thus should not be able to be turned into a continuous effect. Plus, the base cost of a continuous item really only applies to spells with a duration measured in hours. Even if you were to allow a continuous necklace of CLW, you should apply the maximum possible multiplier for a spell whose duration is measured in rounds. This would make the base cost of the item 1 x 2 x 2000 x 4 = 8000. Simply allowing the artificer to make these for everyone should have drained the entire party's coffers.
The pricing guidelines for creating magic items are also just guidelines, not rules. If an item exists with an effect similar in concept to what the artificer is trying to create, that should be referred to as a baseline before referring to the formulae. A ring of regeneration provides passive healing at a much, much slower rate at a market price of 90,000.


It's worth noting that the guidelines for creating magic items appear in the DMG, not the PHB. They are a tool for a DM to enrich a campaign setting, not a set of mechanics for players to use as a tool to break your game. The DM decides what items are allowed to be made, not the player. I think the appropriate way for the artificer to create a new item would be to describe what he wants an item to do and maybe suggest what spell(s) he might use to create that item; the DM would then take that concept, design the item, price it, and return the item's stat block to the player for review. Only after the DM and the player have agreed on the effects and cost of the item should the player be able to craft that item.

Artificer: "I want to create an item that passively regenerates health. Maybe I could use CLW to do it."
DM: "Alright. CLW is a bit strong to be hitting everyone every round, but I'll let you use CLW as the prerequisite for an item that grants fast healing 1."
Artificer: "Can I make it more powerful than that?"
DM: "I'll tell you what, you can use CMW to make an item with fast healing 2 later on, up to fast healing 4 with CCW. Actually, make that 5 with Heal."
Artificer: "How much is that going to cost?"
DM: "You know what? Let's scrap the caster level x spell level formula and price it like a bonus. We'll make it your fast healing value squared time 4,000."
Artificer: "Alright, so half the market value to craft will make it 2k apiece to make amulets of fast healing 1"

Also, bear in mind that the rules for cursed magic items are also at your disposal. Some cursed items are created intentionally as traps by devious artificers, but there are many types of common curses manifest on otherwise ordinary magic items simply as the result of magic being fickle and unpredictable. In addition to the crafting process resulting in defective products, magic items can become cursed due to interactions with or proximity to certain conditions. If your player wants to make potent magic items at an extremely cheap price, they should be made subject to malfunctioning as many cheaply made products are.

The DM decides which price modifiers are appropriate and what the final item should cost, not the player. The DM decides the rules for his own game, not the players.
If a player is doing something that you feel is ruining your game, shut it down. Full stop.



Any and every enemy now has items that horribly abuse the same pricing guidelines and logic that the player is using.
Each of these items is a command word activated item, costing caster level * spell level * 1800
The item can be used 1/day, -80%
The item contains 50 charges like a wand or staff and is rendered useless once emptied, -50%
The item consumed 50 charges on use, -98%
The item only functions for the specific kind of creature it's being designed for, -30%
The character purchasing the item uses a talisman of transference to supply the necessary XP cost for crafting the item, -50%

1800 * 17 * 9 = 275400 gp as the base cost for an item to use 9th-level spells
275400 * 0.2 = 55080 gp as the cost of a 1/day 9th-level spell
55080 * 0.5 = 27540 gp as the cost of that item, but with 50 total charges before it's burnt out and becomes useless
27540 * 0.02 = 550.8 gp as the cost of that item, but it costs 50 charges per activation
550.8 * 0.7 = 385.56 gp as the cost of that item, but it only functions in the hands of, idk, a sorcerer
385.56* 0.5 = 192.78 gp as the final crafting cost

For less than 200 gp, an NPC can cheese his way into throwing disjunction (http://dndsrd.net/spellsMtoO.html#mages-disjunction) at the party. This will wipe all of the artificer's cheese off the table. If the party's artificer has any complaints, just say that it was well within an NPC's WBL.
If you want to go a step farther, in addition to only functioning for a character of a certain class, you can also apply a curse of intermittent functioning so the item only functions within 10 feet of a creature of the intended user's type. There is no pricing guideline for general cursed items, but you could get away with arbitrarily throwing an additional -50% modifier into the mix. You're the DM after all.

[Biggus]

The 3.0 DMG lists the cost for skill bonuses at bonus2 x 20. Tome of Blood, as a 3.0 supplement book, is simply being consistent with core rules for its edition. In a 3.5 campaign, the revised item creation guideline of bonus2 x 100 replaces the older and less expensive iteration.


I came here to say exactly this. If you're playing a 3.5 game, Tome and Blood is made obsolete by the 3.5 DMG.

[GeoffWatson]

The Item Crafting rules are guidelines for the DM, not freely available min-maxxers delight for munchkin "cheating" players.

The DM has to approve every item the artificer wants to build,

Healing every round? That's a crazy powerful item. Compare with Ring of Regeneration - a "at-will free action Cure spell" is a totally bull**** cheating item.

[JNAProductions]

The Item Crafting rules are guidelines for the DM, not freely available min-maxxers delight for munchkin "cheating" players.

The DM has to approve every item the artificer wants to build,

Healing every round? That's a crazy powerful item. Compare with Ring of Regeneration - a "at-will free action Cure spell" is a totally bull**** cheating item.

Doesn’t the Ring of Regeneration suck, though?
Not saying the presented item is acceptable, since it’s a CL 2 Quickened CLW every round… but maybe compare to items that are considered at least decent?

[GeoffWatson]

Doesn’t the Ring of Regeneration suck, though?
Not saying the presented item is acceptable, since it’s a CL 2 Quickened CLW every round… but maybe compare to items that are considered at least decent?

The RoR does suck, but that's the recommended power level for unlimited healing.

An item that does a few CLW per day, as an action, would be much cheaper. Like the Healing Belt from Magic Item Compendium.

[JNAProductions]

The RoR does suck, but that's the recommended power level for unlimited healing.

An item that does a few CLW per day, as an action, would be much cheaper. Like the Healing Belt from Magic Item Compendium.

Aren't there also Earth Boots or something that give Fast Healing 1 as long as you stand still on solid ground? For a LOT cheaper than a Ring of Regen.

[Vaern]

Aren't there also Earth Boots or something that give Fast Healing 1 as long as you stand still on solid ground? For a LOT cheaper than a Ring of Regen.

I think the main thing you're paying for with RoR is the ability to regrow limbs. There's not a lot of stuff that lets you do that, short of actually having regeneration. Even then, you'd have to be playing a game run by George Lucas to get limbs cut off often enough to even consider buying it for that effect.

[KillianHawkeye]

Yeah, an item which casts Cure Light Wounds on the wearer every round all day long, without even costing any action by the wearer, should never be allowed to exist. It probably should not even exist if it cost a Standard Action to activate it every time.

Remember that the first step of custom magic item pricing is to compare it to existing items. You don't simply jump straight to the spell level x caster level calculations. And the DM has total control of what items a PC is allowed to make.

This is, quite simply, a game-breaking item.



Either that, or all the bad guys get them, too. :smallwink:

[Biggus]

The RoR does suck, but that's the recommended power level for unlimited healing.

An item that does a few CLW per day, as an action, would be much cheaper. Like the Healing Belt from Magic Item Compendium.

The designers admitted in the introduction to the MIC that many items in the DMG are overpriced. I think there's a pretty broad consensus that the RoR is one of those items.

[JNAProductions]

Yeah, an item which casts Cure Light Wounds on the wearer every round all day long, without even costing any action by the wearer, should never be allowed to exist. It probably should not even exist if it cost a Standard Action to activate it every time.

Remember that the first step of custom magic item pricing is to compare it to existing items. You don't simply jump straight to the spell level x caster level calculations. And the DM has total control of what items a PC is allowed to make.

This is, quite simply, a game-breaking item.

Either that, or all the bad guys get them, too. :smallwink:

I wouldn't call it game-breaking.

At 17th level, you can Persist Mass Lesser Vigor without any shenanigans. That's Fast Healing 1 that works even in the negatives.
Now, 1d8+2 is, purely on the numbers, six and a half times as effective. But at 17th or higher level, it's unlikely to make the difference of more than a single hit, and might not even do that in a tough fight. But both Persistent MLV and this item mean you can heal to full between fights easily.

Even a 20th level Barbarian would only have around 250-300 HP. If they get knocked to 0 but survive, that's 25-30 minutes of healing from MLV, or around four minutes from the item. Either way, you can probably get to full even from 0.

But for a low-level party... Yeah, it's strong as all heck. Overpowered, even.

[Crake]

1) he has custom item with +x to skills to he use the ruling in tome of blood In the table 4-3 page 74: skill bonus base price Bonus sqarred x 20 gp

instead of the normal Skill bonus (competence) Bonus squared × 100 gp that I'm used to use, is it legal or is there an errata? He roll between 50 to 70 to almost all skills.

I want to clear this up, as I dont feel like its been addressed. You said they had an item that gave +x to skills. The cost for the skill item is for a bonus to ONE skill, not ALL skills.

Also, as others have said, the 100x bonus squared is the correct guideline to use, as this is the updated 3.5 guideline.

All that being said, it sounds like you are rather new to dnd, so my main suggestion would be to NOT make any custom items. Tell the artificer, if they want to make something, it needs to already exist. Don’t just go letting them make all this custom stuff when you barely even understand how the custom magic item rules work, theres plenty of really powerful gear already available to craft without custom items.

[Vaern]

All that being said, it sounds like you are rather new to dnd, so my main suggestion would be to NOT make any custom items. Tell the artificer, if they want to make something, it needs to already exist. Don’t just go letting them make all this custom stuff when you barely even understand how the custom magic item rules work, theres plenty of really powerful gear already available to craft without custom items.

Alternatively, outsource the job. If your artificer wants to create a custom magic item, ask him for a description of what he wants it to do and bring it here. I'm sure there's no shortage of people frequenting the homebrew section of the forum who would be more than happy to stat and price anything you'd care to bring to them.

[Segev]

Alternatively, outsource the job. If your artificer wants to create a custom magic item, ask him for a description of what he wants it to do and bring it here. I'm sure there's no shortage of people frequenting the homebrew section of the forum who would be more than happy to stat and price anything you'd care to bring to them.

Yeah, a lot of us have a great deal of fun with the magic item construction minigame.

[aglondier]

We generally place two limits on a prospective magic items skill bonus...

1. The skill bonus cannot exceed the character level of the creator.
2. The skill bonus cannot exceed the ranks in the skill possessed by the creator.

This does allow having a helper provide the character level or skill ranks to the crafter, but it definitely does not allow 4th level characters to create +20 skill bonus items.

[Segev]

And again, using the 3.5 recommended costs, (20*20*100)/2 = 20,000 gp creation cost, and 40 days of downtime to work. I know he's an artificer and gets discounts, but even a quarter off that for 15,000 gp should be prohibitive to a 4th level character. Even +10, at 5,000 gp creation cost, is ridiculous at that level. (It remains so for quite some time, too.)

[Chronos]

An artificer, or any other PC crafter, can make any item that exists (i.e., one which you, the DM, have decided exists in your world). They can also attempt to create a new item that did not already exist, in which case you, the DM, can use those guidelines to help you decide (if successful) how much it would cost. But an attempt to create a new item that did not already exist is not guaranteed to be successful: That's up to you, the DM, to decide.

And as for those guidelines: First of all, they are only guidelines, not rules, because they're for use by the DM, not by the players, and it's understood that the DM can always tweak any rules they want. Second, optimizers always jump straight to the formulas, but the first guideline is always to compare the item to other, existing items.

[Mordante]

I have never had an Artificer in a party. Or anyone that could craft magic items. But to me this sounds game breaking. Magic items should IMHO be something special. No being handed out like candy.

If it really becomes an issue you can always restrict down time to nearly zero. Make crafting items nigh impossible to buy etc.

[Bayar]

I have never had an Artificer in a party. Or anyone that could craft magic items. But to me this sounds game breaking. Magic items should IMHO be something special. No being handed out like candy.

If it really becomes an issue you can always restrict down time to nearly zero. Make crafting items nigh impossible to buy etc.

Neither magic item crafting, magic item buying, artificers or downtime are the issues here.

The issues is using the custom magic item guidelines to reduce crafting costs and time to a ridiculous degree, apply inflated bonuses without any valid reason and the DM not being able to say no to something the player shouldn't have been able to do in the first place.

Your solutions just push the needle in the other extreme instead of a compromise.