Harengon Build Selection Help

[Necrosnoop110]

D&D 5E
World: Fairy tale/Folk Tale Homebrewed setting with forests and monsters aplenty
Race: Harengon (Must Have)
Rolled Stats: 16, 16, 14, 13, 12, 11
Starting Level: 5th (guessing the campaign will range from 5th-12th or so)
Rest of Party: Minotaur Paladin, Tortle Monk, Tortle Paladin, Tabaxi Ranger/Rogue

Having a hard time settling on a build.

I'm really liking:
(1) Celestial Tomelock for ranged attacks and utility (aka Celestial Generalist (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?583957-An-Eclectic-Collection-of-Fun-and-Effective-Builds))
(2) War Wizard for a high initiative caster build (high dex + War Wizard Tactical Wit + Hare-Trigger + Alert = I go first)
(3) Echo Knight 3 / Warlock X for high mobility and battlefield manipulation and some warlock utility, also endless short teleporting sounds fun as all get out (aka Ghostlance (https://tabletopbuilds.com/ghostlance/))

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Thanks,
Necro

[Mastikator]

War Wizard is plenty strong, and since the party lacks a full caster and an int character I think that will give you two whole niches all to yourself.

[Sorinth]

I think Wizard would probably be the best, but Druid would also be very solid. Being able to go first, dropping a good control spell is a great start to every fight. I do think Alert is a great feat for Harengon but it's probably overkill to also go War Wizard. I would actually be very tempted to go Enchanter since it's thematic to the setting and you can use Hypnotic Gaze more frequently since Rabbit Hop can get you out of danger.

For Druid I'd probably avoid Moon and Spores, but the others could all be interesting options. Check with the DM/players about Conjure Animals since it tends to slow down play, but Shepard even with sticking to the newer Summon Beast/Fey spells is still quite solid.

[Necrosnoop110]

For Druid I'd probably avoid Moon and Spores, but the others could all be interesting options. Check with the DM/players about Conjure Animals since it tends to slow down play, but Shepard even with sticking to the newer Summon Beast/Fey spells is still quite solid.

OOoh, druids I always forget about Druids. Thanks. Never played a druid before either, in decades of gaming, so there is the newness factor. A Land (Coast) druid would really fit the setting lore. Any more suggestions based on race and ability rolls, etc.?

[animorte]

If you're going with Druid, I would recommend Stars. You have multiple options based on the encounter, but otherwise it's just one of my favorite ranged builds.

[Necrosnoop110]

If you're going with Druid, I would recommend Stars. You have multiple options based on the encounter, but otherwise it's just one of my favorite ranged builds.

Yeah, that fits as well, plus I really do want to include some range attack options. Any build suggestions for a Harengon Star Druid?

[Sorinth]

For the Druid build I would probably go Dex: 14, Con: 16+1, Wis: 16+2, and grab Alert with your level 4 feat. I would then be very tempted to grab Fey-Touched at level 8 (Dissonant Whispers or Silvery Barbs and boosting Wis to 19) and then evening out Wis and Con at level 12.

[RogueJK]

OOoh, druids I always forget about Druids. Thanks. Never played a druid before either, in decades of gaming, so there is the newness factor.

I'd definitely go Druid with that party composition. Your party needs an AoE/Control/Utility caster, ranged damage caster, and a primary healer. That's a Druid through and through.

Grabbing Ritual Caster Wizard would provide even a further boost to the party as well, making you the ultimate utility caster, since between Druid and Wizard you'd have access to nearly all Ritual spells in the game.


Yeah, that fits as well, plus I really do want to include some range attack options. Any build suggestions for a Harengon Star Druid?

Stars Druid is a great pick for a ranged attack Druid. I'd suggest something like this:

Harengon Arcana Cleric 1/Stars Druid 4
STR 11
DEX 16 or 14
CON 14+1 or 16+1
INT 13
WIS 16+2
CHA 12
ASIs: Ritual Caster Wizard at Druid 4, then plan on Resilient CON at Druid 8 and 20 WIS at Druid 12 (if you get that far)
Skills: Perception*, Arcana*, Insight, Religion, Survival, Nature
Druid Cantrips: Guidance*, Mold Earth, Thorn Whip, Gust
Cleric Cantrips: Chill Touch*, Mage Hand*, Thaumaturgy, Sacred Flame, Mending
Cleric 1st level spells: Detect Magic* (R), Magic Missile*, Cure Wounds, Healing Word, Protection from Good/Evil, Bless, Command,
Druid 1st level spells: Guiding Bolt*, Entangle, Absorb Elements
Druid 2nd level spells: Moonbeam, Summon Beast, Lesser Restoration, Spike Growth, Animal Messenger (R), Augury (R)
Plus a variety of Wizard ritual spells, starting with something like Comprehend Languages and Find Familiar as your initial 2 picks, but being on the lookout for the opportunity to also add stuff like Alarm, Identify, Tenser's Floating Disc, Unseen Servant, Skywrite, Phantom Steed, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Water Breathing, etc. whenever you get the chance to add them.


The 1 level Arcana Cleric dip has a number of benefits here.

First, it allows you to grab some additional cantrips, including two Wizard cantrips. One of the Stars Druid's primary strengths is their ability to drop a big Concentration spell and then sit back and contribute meaningful ranged damage via Cantrip+Archer Form supplemented by your free Guiding Bolts when you want a bigger punch. The issue is that Druids in general don't really have great options for damage cantrips, since their cantrips are either non-scaling attacks (Shillelagh, Magic Stone), or short ranged (Produce Flame, Thorn Whip, Poison Spray, etc.), or target CON saves which are most enemies "best" saves (Frostbite, Poison Spray), or deal damage that's commonly resisted/immune (Fire, Cold, Poison, etc.), or require Concentration and therefore can't be used alongside the myriad of potent Druid Concentration spells (Create Bonfire).

1 level of Arcana Cleric solves this, letting you grab one or two much better wizard cantrips (like Chill Touch) and making them use your WIS instead of INT. Plus the Cleric level grants you an additional three Cleric cantrips, so you can grab additional utility stuff like Mending and Thaumaturgy, plus a solid save-based damage cantrip like Toll The Dead/Sacred Flame. That's a total of 5 additional cantrips from 1 level of Arcana Cleric, shoring up your lackluster Druid cantrips with two solid Cleric/Wizard damage cantrips like Chill Touch and Sacred Flame, plus expanding your utility cantrip options.

Since you're starting at Level 5, a Stars Druid 4/Arcana Cleric 1 knows nine cantrips right off the bat (3 Druid + Guidance + 3 Cleric + 2 Wizard). That really makes you a Swiss Army Knife of cantrips, adding further to your utility capabilities, and lets you comfortably sit back with Chill Touch/Sacred Flame + BA Stars Form while your big Concentration spell is running.

Plus, you get access to some Cleric 1st level spells, which even though there's quite a bit of overlap with Druid on things like Healing Word, Detect Magic, and Protection from Good/Evil, this frees up your Druid prepped spells for higher level spells or Druid-specific spells. In addition, as an Arcana Cleric you gain access to Magic Missile, which combines well with the Stars Druid's Guiding Bolt for options to boost the Druid's single-target leveled spell damage in turns when you want to deal more damage than just a cantrip.

All told, I think a 1 level Arcana Cleric dip is well worth considering on a Stars Druid, especially one that wants to focus on ranged casting and utility, which is a perfect fit for your current party. Being a level behind in Druid spells known is the only real drawback, and I think what you gain is worth it. After all, you're not losing out on any spell slots, so you can always use your higher level slots for upcasting any number of excellent lower level spells that still remain relevant at higher levels when upcast (like the various Summon/Conjure spells, Moonbeam, Call Lightning, Guiding Bolt, Magic Missile, etc.) And Ritual Caster goes off your character level, not any specific class level, so you'll still have access to the full level of Wizard rituals despite the Cleric dip.

And thematically, an Arcana Cleric/Stars Druid with Ritual Caster Wizard works well as a "devotee of the magic of the cosmos" with an interest in all magic: arcane, divine, and natural.

[Necrosnoop110]

In addition, as an Arcana Cleric you gain access to Magic Missile, which combines well with the Stars Druid's Guiding Bolt for options to boost the Druid's single-target leveled spell damage in turns when you want to deal more damage than just a cantrip.
First of all, thanks for all the help!

Second, I'm really liking this idea. I believe I understood you except for the bit about the magic missile. How would MM combine with Guiding Bolt, don't they both take actions to use?

[RogueJK]

Yes, my wording was unclear. They don't "combine" in that you cast them together. Rather, together they represent a "combined increase" in options for single target damage spells.

To summarize it another way:

Druids don't usually have a lot of options for single-target ranged damage outside of cantrips (and their damage cantrips usually suck as discussed earlier). Guiding Bolt and Magic Missile are both solid single target ranged damage spells. With the addition of those two extra spells, you're increasing your Druid's single-target ranged damage spell options. Especially since a Stars Druid can cast Guiding Bolt for free several times per day.


Grabbing Dissonant Whispers via Fey Touched is another example of a way that a Druid could beef up its lack of single target ranged damage spell options.

[Necrosnoop110]

Yes, my wording was unclear. They don't "combine" in that you cast them together. Rather, "combined" they represent an increase in your single target damage options.

To put it another way:

Druids don't usually have a lot of options for single-target damage outside of cantrips (and their cantrips usually suck as discussed). Guiding Bolt and Magic Missile are both single target damage spells. With the addition of those two extra spells, you're increasing your Druid's single-target damage spell options.

Got ya, awesome. Thanks again.

[Necrosnoop110]

spell options.
One last question. If I really wanted to take the Telekinetic feat, any suggestions on the best way to add that to your build?

[Leon]

Three choices listed = Roll a d3 and enjoy

[RogueJK]

One last question. If I really wanted to take the Telekinetic feat, any suggestions on the best way to add that to your build?

Swap your initial stat array to 16+1 WIS and either 14+2/16+2 CON, then take Telekinetic (18 WIS) in place of Resilient CON. Understand that this would mean either waiting until Level 8 to get the Wizard ritual utility, or being -1 to WIS bonus (and therefore spell attack/damage/save DC/etc.) for 4 levels compared to the initial build suggestion. (While an 18 WIS is better, a 16-17 WIS can be just fine until Level 8.) And your Concentration will be easier to break, with the Druid having a large number of combat Concentration spells available.

Telekinetic's BA shove conflicts with Archer Form's BA attack, but in turn this variant's lack of Resilient CON to boost Concentration makes Dragon Form more worthwhile so you may be spending your Wild Shape charges on that instead anyway. In the end, you'll basically be trading roughly 50% of your ranged damage for some forced movement instead. Though with the right combo of spells (Spike Growth, Moonbeam, etc.) that forced movement can itself be used to inflict damage, which could close that damage gap.


If you want a similar 30' range forced movement effect while maintaining your Archer Form ranged attack and following the initial build suggestion, without having to squeeze in an additional feat, you could stick to the original build, utilize the Thorn Whip and Gust cantrips to pull/push with your Action and then still use the BA Archer Form attack, still have a higher Concentration, and not be behind in either Wizard utility or WIS bonus. The main downside here is that Gust only works on Medium or smaller creatures and Thorn Whip only works on Large or smaller, while Telekinetic's shove effect works on any size. But Thorn Whip in particular allows greater forced movement (10' vs. 5'), and also inflicts damage so it won't cramp your damage output that turn. On the other hand, Telekinetic still allows you to use forced movement in a turn when you used your Action to cast a spell like Moonbeam or Guiding Bolt.


I can confirm that the BA Telekinetic shove is a great addition to a number of builds, especially spellcasters without a regular use of their Bonus Action. But it's up to you whether you think it works well with what the Stars build already offers innately, enough to outweigh the decrease in your ranged damage output and Concentration.

[Gree D. Clown]

as other stated wizard will fit the party perfectly but i wouldn't double down that hard on the initiative, with your stats and hare-trigger you are likely to win initiative already without any need of that INT boost, now warmagic is still strong because of the arcane deflection but i feel there are better options for a harengon wizard depending on the playstyle you're going for