A Farewell to D&D

[Catullus64]

Ok, fine, I made that title a little more melodramatic than it needs to be. You clicked on it, didn't you?

I'm not quitting D&D, not exactly, even as, for the first time in nearly a decade, I will soon not be running or playing in a game of some edition of Dungeons & Dragons. Believe it or not, this is not even related to the OGL Debacle. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?653211-Official-OGL-Discussion-Thread) At least, not directly.

For several reasons, I've been burned out on my long-running D&D campaign for a little while now, which is set in mythical-medieval Ireland. It's at that stage of campaign where the number of things to keep track of (party resources, character relationships, politics, past events) is mounting rapidly. It's also reaching the end of the 'heroic fantasy' levels, namely levels 1-10, and approaching the 'high-fantasy superhero' levels. I started to feel like I was fighting the system to run the game more than the system was helping me. But the players were still having a blast, and I did want to see the story continued.

Enter, with providential timing, aforementioned OGL fiasco. It didn't make me burn my D&D books in anger or anything like that, or even make me feel like I have no future with D&D. But it did begin to generate discussion in the community about D&D-the-brand vs. TTRPGs-the-hobby, and has spurred the announcement and development of new systems. Listening to this conversation, in particular the ruminations of Matt Colville on his company's forthcoming RPG, inspired me to dust off my own self-made RPG system, Torchlight Tales (little did I know when I named it that, it's the UK-registered trademark of a brand of light-up children's books). And after a week and a half spent homebrewing and revising and tweaking with the frenzy of a man possessed, I put the proposition to my group.

We had a really dramatic session, a faerie-courtroom trial with startling reveals and major consequences. It reinforced my commitment to this story and this group. But at the end of it, I asked my group if they would be willing to convert the game from 5th Edition Dungeons & Dragons to Torchlight Tales. And they all said yes, with a swiftness and excitement which makes me glad I chose these people for my friends! So now we're doing it, and I'm immeasurably excited! Excited to really get to grips with this system for which I've only done isolated playtests. Excited to tell this story with a system that suits it. Excited to create, and to have my creations see play!

The new system has combat which, from playtesting, is tactical, while actually being well-adapted to theater-of-the-mind style play. It's deadly and suspenseful. It's got easy-to-use die resolution mechanics with a flavorful and bespoke skills system. It's got character progression that ranges solidly from slightly-above-ordinary to action-hero, without reaching the godlike character power of high-level D&D. It's got a magic system that actually reflects and captures something like *real-world stuff redacted for compliance with Forum Rules.*

As a general thing, I still like D&D, and hope to play many more games of it in the future. But I've grown enough as a Game Master that I can now capture a lot of what I love about it with my own creation, especially with recent events reminding me that the company who owns the D&D brand may not love exactly what I love.

The sum total of relevance to you, dear reader, if it comes to anything at all, is that I shall probably have very little to say in the D&D-specific fora in the foreseeable future; that game and its systems are just not going to be on my mind. So to those who mainly haunt those parts, and of whose gaming wisdom I have had the pleasure to drink, fare ye well. I say not goodbye, but au revoir.

[KillianHawkeye]

"This is the day you will always remember as the day you almost caught Captain Catullus64." Farewell, person who means nothing to me... I won't miss you because I never knew you. :smallwink:

[Quertus]

If 5th edition, where by design goblins are still a threat at 20th level, and bounded accuracy says you can never be certain you’ll put your pants on, is “ godlike character power” to you, then, yeah, you’re well-served by brewing your own. I hope your group continues to show such enthusiasm, and that your decision Forstalls your burnout past the campaign’s conclusion.

[KorvinStarmast]

Glad that you've been able to put together a system that your group would like to play and doubtless improve.

Matt Colville (among others) has pointed out that every DM who does it for a while has a little bit of game designer in them - and you've taken that to its logical conclusion.

Maybe a few years from now we'll see "Torchlit Tales" at DriveThruRPG? Who knows? (You may need to change the name slightly)

[Psyren]

If 5th edition, where by design goblins are still a threat at 20th level, and bounded accuracy says you can never be certain you’ll put your pants on, is “ godlike character power” to you, then, yeah, you’re well-served by brewing your own. I hope your group continues to show such enthusiasm, and that your decision Forstalls your burnout past the campaign’s conclusion.

Sigh.

@OP: Best of luck with your system!

[ahyangyi]

If 5th edition, where by design goblins are still a threat at 20th level, and bounded accuracy says you can never be certain you’ll put your pants on, is “ godlike character power” to you, then, yeah, you’re well-served by brewing your own. I hope your group continues to show such enthusiasm, and that your decision Forstalls your burnout past the campaign’s conclusion.

Well, I understand your point, but I guess we can also say that the other way around: the D&D-style high fantasy genre might not be in fashion any more.

How many times, people come to D&D to play a wizard expecting to play "a character who uses a few cool thematic magic tricks creatively"? But the D&D wizard is "a character who has a solution (or two) for every foreseeable problem".

I like the classical D&D wizard, actually. But I also understand why it's not what everyone's favorite.

[Easy e]

There are two things you need to be a game designer:

1. A game to play!
2. People willing to play it!

You are now a game designer! Congratulations.

I love a world with more game designers rather than less.

[Kyovastra]

I'm mainly a lurker and don't post very much, but you are one of the users whose posts have always stood out most to me and that I've valued reading a lot, for what that's worth. Will miss your posts in the D&D sections. Enjoy playing a new game for a change, and make sure if you ever publish that you don't forget to announce it here. The setting it's meant for sounds very appealing. :smallsmile:

[Bohandas]

Well, I understand your point, but I guess we can also say that the other way around: the D&D-style high fantasy genre might not be in fashion any more.

How many times, people come to D&D to play a wizard expecting to play "a character who uses a few cool thematic magic tricks creatively"? But the D&D wizard is "a character who has a solution (or two) for every foreseeable problem".

The D&D wizard has a solution for every forseeable problem but needs eight hours to set it up

[Zombimode]

D&D wizards do not "have the solution for every foreseeable problem". If that would be true, they would only have one spell called "solve problem". That is not that case.
In order to suceed as a wizard (and similar classes) in D&D the player has to understand the problem, as well as their options, be able to create a strategy out of their options (that are currently available at the very moment), and then employ those options effectively.

This is a skillset that not every player brings to the table (or is willing to commit to this particular activity).

I agree that D&D magic does not work on the "I cast Create Water in the enemies lungs" kind of "creativity".

[Kane0]

A pleasure to have had you here Catullus64, and I hope to see Not-Torchlight-Tales available to read soon!

[Catullus64]

I'm mainly a lurker and don't post very much, but you are one of the users whose posts have always stood out most to me and that I've valued reading a lot, for what that's worth. Will miss your posts in the D&D sections. Enjoy playing a new game for a change, and make sure if you ever publish that you don't forget to announce it here. The setting it's meant for sounds very appealing. :smallsmile:

That's very kind of you to say.

[ahyangyi]

The D&D wizard has a solution for every forseeable problem but needs eight hours to set it up

Not entirely; Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Evocation, (Limited) Wish. Preparing spells is just one of the many ways of solving problems.


This is a skillset that not every player brings to the table (or is willing to commit to this particular activity).

It's something I both love or hate.

Deciding when to use that Web or Glittering Dust, OK. Polymorphing into a hydra, OK. Quickened Empowered Maximized Fireball, also OK I guess, that fireball can "solve" many problems as well.

But, also see the above-mentioned spells: utilizing Shadow Conjuration to mimic a weird spell in a splash book, or polymorphing into a weird monster that nobody remembers, or casting Paragon Surge (well, it's Pathfinder) and grab a really weird feat just for a few minutes. That's beyond what I am willing to commit to: I expect to play a character sheet, not a whole Spell Compendium or a whole Monster Manual.

[lightningcat]

As someone who has made their own system, and played a couple of campaigns in it, I wish you the best of luck. It is a heck of a ride. The best advice I can give is do not take criticism personally. This is especially true when you think it is wrong.
I moved complete way from level based systems for a long time, and now I am writing specifically for d20 game. So even making your own system might not take you far from the old game.

[gbaji]

To the OP. Yeah. If you're feeling constrained by a game system, by all means, try another (or make your own in your case!). Good luck to you.


If 5th edition, where by design goblins are still a threat at 20th level, and bounded accuracy says you can never be certain you’ll put your pants on...

To the first, shouldn't they? Sounds like level assumptions is precisely what he's trying to get away from here. So yeah.

As to the second? The game rules explicitly state that rolls need not be made for normal everyday tasks. But, even setting that aside, you've never tried to put your pants on in a rush, got your toe stuck in the inseam/waistband/leg of said pants, and then had to pull your foot out, straighten the pants, and try again? That's a "fail", right? Or, you've never done that, then hop hop hopped for a bit almost losing your balance? Or, to take it to "epic fumble", done that, hopped a bit, lost your balance, fallen over and maybe injured yourself? I personally know someone who has broken a wrist, twice (one time needing a metal plate), just by failing (badly) at a "walking on a flat surface" roll.

Also, speaking as someone who knows exactly what going headfirst through the side of a glass fishtank feels like (kids, horseplay, and indoors near a large fishtank are not a great combination), I know that it's quite possible for really bad things to happen, just kinda... randomly. I get that this isn't something we expect to deal with when running our heroic characters, but... Sometimes people die just trying to eat a roast beef sandwich.


The D&D wizard has a solution for every forseeable problem but needs eight hours to set it up

Lol! So true.

[KorvinStarmast]

Sometimes people die just trying to eat a roast beef sandwich.

That, roughly, is what happened to my sister-in-law's husband yesterday.
Despite about 45 minutes of CPR efforts by the EMTs upon arrival at his home and during transit...he was pronounced dead on arrival at the ER.

[Easy e]

That, roughly, is what happened to my sister-in-law's husband yesterday.
Despite about 45 minutes of CPR efforts by the EMTs upon arrival at his home and during transit...he was pronounced dead on arrival at the ER.

I am sorry to hear that. Condolences.

[Cluedrew]

If 5th edition, where by design goblins are still a threat at 20th level, and bounded accuracy says you can never be certain you’ll put your pants on, is “ godlike character power” [...]I think they were talking about the wizard, not the fighter.

Bu-Dun Chi!

I'm not going into a serious caster/martial disparity debate here, I just wanted to make the joke. But honestly, as someone who has played D&D many times and then sort of realized the system wasn't why I was having fun, yeah branch out, try thing. I also have done some homebrew just because I enjoy it. I've given up on making even my perfect system (because how could shuck a thing exist) but the design process is still fun.

To KorvinStarmast: Oh boy. Best of luck to you, your sister-in-law and everyone else.